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Some people catch on, unfortunately, some do not.
You are correct - some people know what objective means, and some do not; some can learn it, for others it seems unachievable...
I am addressing human causes of unnatural and unnecessary destruction to life on earth.
Compared to what? Doesn't "better" require a comparator? If the comparison is to nature without humans, then natural destruction that occurs without humans is a relevant and sound disputation that has so far gone unaddressed (if not flatly conceded).
Animals would not be confined to prisons that restrict there instinctual urges. Animals would have 80%+ more forestry to live in. So on an so forth.
You keep making a subjective argument about preserving certain conditions/animals, but calling it objectively better.
Nature destroys itself then replenishes, it's a cycle of nature.
This is not inherently the case - as you acknowledge in your other post, nature will surely destroy the earth and all life on it.
This also ignores the idea that human behavior may be cyclical as well - maybe future humans will be a (subjectively) better preserver for animals than current humans - even bringing back animals that have become extinct - ref
In order to deal with our impact on the atmosphere, we may learn techniques (cloud-seeding for rain, adding aerosols to reduce temperature, etc.) to help us manipulate it in the future in response to natural shifts. If keeping conditions the same is "better", humans may be the best chance of maximally preserving those conditions.
300+ animals would still thrive, 80%+ forestry would still be, earth would be a degree cooler, water levels would be lower, water would be cleaner-- as would the air
In every case, nature has done even worse without our contribution. The earth has been much hotter and much colder, sea levels have been far higher and lower, oxygen has been at much higher and lower concentration, etc. before humans ever existed. At which point was earth objectively "best"?
So yes, earth would be a better place (for all life in it) if there were no humans, which is an irrefutable fact.
Not just refutable, but refuted. You can argue that certain conditions would be subjectively preferable to achieve specific goals - keeping oxygen concentration or sea levels static, preserving the polar bear, etc., but not how any of those goals are objectively good, or even that they would be better preserved by nature over time.
I've give examples of objective 'betters'. You having two kidneys is 'better' than one.
Your example illustrates my point perfectly. Can something that improves the survivability of humans be objectively better when you also say it would be better if humans did not exist?
I said 'HUMANS' and nature. The asteroid/Dino era had no humans in it.
Doesn't "'HUMANS' and nature" also include nature?? In order to compare human destruction to 'natural' destruction don't you need to look at the other side of the equation? There were several mass extinction events without humans and yet somehow you (still) avoid evaluating that fact on your scale of "better".
Eventually the sun will implode but there's no need for the torture of wildlife in the meantime.
So, when your assertion is that humans will destroy all life - that is bad, but you acknowledge that nature itself will destroy all life and somehow that is less bad?
Is predation, starvation, extinction - all things that occur without humans - not torture?
In at least some instances, don't humans improve conditions for some animals (cats, dogs, cows, etc.)?
Isn't the possibility that humans will take them to other planets the only chance that any of these animals have of escaping the "natural" destruction you mention?
Do I really need to explain why a plant photosynthesizing is beneficial to all life?
You need to explain why animals that did exist in the past or might exist in the future under different conditions would be objectively worse than you're imagined ideal.
If chemosynthesis became the source for most life on earth, would it be objectively better/worse?
Can you really argue what is better for the human species and that it would be better if the human species did not exist in the same debate without the least bit of cognitive dissonance?
Better depends on what you are trying to achieve - if there is no intention, there is no better/worse progress towards it.
Clearly I'm talking about humans and nature, not fucking asteroids and Dinos.
Are asteroids and Dinos not natural?
This 'human' cause destruction is completely different. Human destruction will potentially destroy all life (except maybe a few bacterium).
Natural causes will inevitably wipe out all life on earth with or without humans.
Because as soon as the plants die out, so does the oxygen level
For most of the earth's history the oxygen level was well below what it is today.
Humans are destroying ALL life not SOME life as the post-human NATURAL destruction caused.
Certain species would live and others would die - the only difference would be which species and in what timeframe.
I'm sure I clarified the point I was getting across
Actually no. You have repeatedly avoided the issue I raised with my initial post - how do you objectively define "better".
PS - Just to save you from looking silly elsewhere - that is the second time you have used "asses" (the plural of ass) when you likely meant "assess".
By consistently implying that I'm addressing life post-human;
If you are not "addressing life post-human", then you are not addressing the debate at hand.
and by me offering a clarification
No clarification has been given.
You have only asserted, without any substantiation, that
A) more survival and 'better' living would necessarily follow, ignoring the actual history of evolution & extinction without human input,
and B) that "better" is objective - which is false. Are more complex animals "better" than simpler ones? Smarter "better" than dumb? Is it "better" to have many animals fighting for dependent resources, or relatively few animals living in abundance? If nearly every species that went extinct did so without human input, was that earth "better"? If an asteroid hits the earth, but could have been avoided by human intervention, would it still be "better"?
It depends on who you mean by "us". There are some restrictions in the Constitution - the government is given the power to tax and spend, only the federal government can coin money, it tells us who is eligible for certain offices, rebellion is prohibited, etc., etc.
But, if enough of "us" want to change it, we can - so the restrictions are self-imposed.
As an individual, there would seem to be insurmountable restrictions; yet as a society we are "free" to decide for ourselves.
Also, as an individual you are free to leave and find some uninhabited island, etc.
Just a clarification - the "Bill of Rights" was not "the first bill passed by the new congress", they were separate proposed Constitutional Amendments (offered along with dozens more), which didn't pass Congress until September 25, 1789 and then had to be ratified by the states. When Virginia voted for ratification on December 15, 1791, enough states had agreed to ratify 10 of the 12 amendments passed by Congress and they became adopted March 1, 1792 upon certification of the results by the Secretary of State.
(First law dealt with taking oaths and was approved June 1, 1789- ref)
And benefits anyone with a 401K, etc.
P.S. - bad timing on your part... The Dow Is Up 500 Points In 48 Hours
More generally: gas prices are an indicator, not the cause. They reflect increased efficiency, shifts to other energy sources, increased supply (US has increased production and OPEC is keeping supply high) and poor demand in other countries (Russia, Europe, etc.) - It is not a negative reflection on the US; if anything it shows the strength of our recovery relative to other countries. It also shows that our sanctions on Russia are working.
Don't tell me that you are one of those idiots that doesn't know the difference between the deficit and the debt...
Also, not only is the deficit down by nearly 70%, but inflation is low and the dollar has gotten stronger relative to most other major currencies, so apparently printing was the way to go (especially in the absence of a productive legislature.)
Your "(A&B;) " do not comport with this debate.
They directly address claims you made - so, if my statements are irrelevant it would have to be because your claims were themselves irrelevant.
You: If humans were not here all life would survive and live 'better'.
My A) is an assertion that "all life" did not "survive" when "humans were not here" and is a direct and verifiable refutation of your claim.
You: Better is just an English homo-sapient[sic] sound used to depict an objective situation.
My B) poses a couple of questions meant to be unanswerable in the hopes that you could, on your own, come to the conclusion that your claim is nonsensical.
Apparently you are multilingual
Yes, I am. Though "slowing starting to fail to do their natural do" is not coherent in any language to which I am familiar.
I am going to suggest you asses[sic] my previous disputation
I did, and "slowing starting to fail to do their natural do" still doesn't make sense and "worse for us" is still irrelevant in a debate which presupposes the absence of humans.
because your misperceiving of it causes doubt about my perception of you
If people misperceive your argument, perhaps there is some onus on you to make it better...
of course you may not care
Right - if you make vacuous arguments, I am not going to be very inclined to respect your opinion.
A) Most animals that have become extinct did so before homo-sapiens existed - including several huge mass extinctions.
B) Better as an "objective situation": Was a "snowball earth" better? Is an earth objectively better which has dinosaurs or does not have dinosaurs?
and they are slowing starting to fail to do their natural do which is worse for us.
(is that English?) Isn't "worse for us" irrelevant if there is no us?
Actually, Christians would generally say murder is a sin - killing is apparently no problem and there is no guidance on the distinction between the two, so feel free to make it up as you go along.
There is (conspicuously) no voluntary abortion in the Bible and accidental abortion (Exodus 21) is treated as a property crime against the father - not as a death punishable by death.
ALL HAIL GODDESS Artemis - for the PROOF of her existence is mighty... ;)
Proof that Artemis exists (from the Iliad):
•05.051 ...Artemis taught the Trojan, Skamandrios (Scamander), how to strike down all wild things in the mountain forest
•05.053 ...Artemis of the showering arrows could not help Skamandrios (Scamander) when he was killed at Troy
•05.447 ...Artemis and Leto heal Aineias (Aeneas)
•06.205 ...Glaukos (Glaucus) related the story of how Artemis killed Laodameia, the daughter of Bellerophontes (Bellerophon)
•06.427 ...Artemis killed Andromakhe’s (Andromache) mother after Akhilleus (Achilles) had released her for ransom
•09.532 ...Artemis, of the golden chair, was angered at Oineus (Oeneus) for neglecting her in sacrifice and sent a boar to ravage the countryside
•09.536 ...Artemis, the daughter of great Zeus, was denied the first fruits by Oineus (Oeneus)
•09.538 ...Artemis is called ‘Lady of Arrows’
•09.547 ...Artemis caused great anger when the boar was dead and the hunters argued over possession of the boar’s head
•16.183 ...Hermes fell in love with Polymele when he saw her dancing in the choir of clamorous Artemis
•19.059 ...Akhilleus (Achilles) wishes that Artemis had killed Briseis instead of letting her become a point of dissention between himself and Agamemnon
•20.040 ...Apollon, Artemis, Aphrodite, Leto and Xanthos (Xanthus) fought on the side of the Trojans
•20.071 ...Artemis of the showering arrows stood against Hera when the Immortals entered the battle for Troy
•21.470 ...Apollon’s sister, Artemis, scolds him for not fighting Poseidon
•21.472 ...Artemis refers to Apollon as ‘striker from afar’
•21.480 ...Hera says that Artemis is shameless and bold for daring to stand against her in battle
•21.491 ...Hera grabs Artemis and knocks the bow and arrows from her shoulder; Artemis flees in tears
•21.505 ...Artemis, the maiden, bowed at the feet of Zeus
•21.509 ...Zeus speaks to Artemis and asks which of the gods has shamed her
•21.511 ...Artemis answers Zeus and says that Hera hit her during the fighting at Troy
•24.604 ...Akhilleus (Achilles) tells Priam about how Apollon had killed Niobe’s sons and Artemis had killed her daughters
Proof that Artemis exists (from the Odyssey):
•05.123 ...Kalypso (Calypso) reminds Hermes how chaste Artemis had killed Orion with her painless arrows because he was the lover of Eos (Dawn)
•06.102 ...Nausikaa was dancing like Artemis
•06.107 ...Artemis dances with the nymphs in the mountains
•06.151 ...Odysseus compares Nausikaa with the goddess Artemis in beauty and stature
•11.172 ...Odysseus encounters the ghost of his mother, Antikleia (Anticleia), in the Underworld and asks her if she died of illness or by the painless arrows of Artemis
•11.324 ...Artemis killed Ariadne on the island if Dia when Dionysus testified against her
•15.410 ...Apollon and Artemis come to the island of Syria and kill the aged painlessly with silver arrows
•15.478 ...When the swineherd, Eumaios (Eumaeus), was a child, he was kidnapped by Phoenicians with the help of his wicked nurse; Artemis killed her because of her betrayal
•17.037 ...Penelope was as lovely as Artemis or golden Aphrodite
•18.202 ...Penelope wishes that chaste Artemis would give her the peace of death
•19.054 ...Penelope was as lovely as Artemis or golden Aphrodite
•20.060 ...Penelope prays first to Artemis
•20.061 ...Penelope calls upon Artemis, daughter of Zeus, to pierce her heart and ease her pain
•20.071 ...Penelope thinks of the daughters of Pandareos (Pandareus) and how Hera gave them beauty, chaste Artemis gave them stature and Athene (Athena) gave them skill
•20.080 ...Penelope wishes that the gods would make her vanish or that lovely haired Artemis would kill her so she could be with Odysseus in the Underworld
Proof that Artemis exists (from the Plato's Cratylus):
•Artemis is named from her healthy (artemes), well-ordered nature, and because of her love of virginity, perhaps because she is a proficient in virtue (arete), and perhaps also as hating intercourse of the sexes (ton aroton miseasa).
Proof that Artemis exists (from The Theogony of Hesiod):
•(ll. 1-25) From the Heliconian Muses let us begin to sing, who hold the great and holy mount of Helicon, and dance on soft feet about the deep-blue spring and the altar of the almighty son of Cronos, and, when they have washed their tender bodies in Permessus or in the Horse's Spring or Olmeius, make their fair, lovely dances upon highest Helicon and move with vigorous feet. Thence they arise and go abroad by night, veiled in thick mist, and utter their song with lovely voice, praising Zeus the aegis- holder and queenly Hera of Argos who walks on golden sandals and the daughter of Zeus the aegis-holder bright-eyed Athene, and Phoebus Apollo, and Artemis who delights in arrows, and Poseidon the earth-holder who shakes the earth, and reverend Themis and quick-glancing (1) Aphrodite, and Hebe with the crown of gold, and fair Dione, Leto, Iapetus, and Cronos the crafty counsellor, Eos and great Helius and bright Selene, Earth too, and great Oceanus, and dark Night, and the holy race of all the other deathless ones that are for ever. And one day they taught Hesiod glorious song while he was shepherding his lambs under holy Helicon, and this word first the goddesses said to me -- the Muses of Olympus, daughters of Zeus who holds the aegis:
•(ll. 918-920) And Leto was joined in love with Zeus who holds the aegis, and bare Apollo and Artemis delighting in arrows, children lovely above all the sons of Heaven.
Proof that Artemis exists (from Callimachus - HYMN I. TO ZEUS):
•Thus, smith, we say, belong to Hephaestus; to Ares, warriors; to Artemis of the Tunic, huntsmen; to Phoebus they that know well the strains of the lyre.
Proof that Artemis exists (from Callimachus - HYMN II. TO APOLLO):
• Artemis hunted and brought continually the heads of Cynthian goats and Phoebus plaited an altar.
Proof that Artemis exists (from the Callimachus - HYMN III. TO ARTEMIS):
• Artemis we hymn – no light thing is it for singers to forget her – whose study is the bow and the shooting of hares and the spacious dance and sport upon the mountains;
• And give to me all mountains; and for city, assign me any, even whatsoever thou wilt: for seldom is it that Artemis goes down to the town.
• ... Three times ten cities and towers more than one will I vouchsafe thee – three times ten cities that shall not know to glorify any other god but to glorify the only and be called of Artemis And thou shalt be Watcher over Streets and harbours.
• ... And thou wert suddenly amazed and sadist to thine own heart: “This would be a first capture worthy of Artemis.”
• Artemis, Lady of Maidenhood, Slayer of Tityus, golden were thine arms and golden thy belt, and a golden car didst thou yoke, and golden bridles, goddess, didst thou put on thy deer.
• For thee surely Proetus established two shrines, one of Artemis of Maidenhood for that thou dist gather for him his maiden daughters, when they were wandering over the Azanian hills; the other he founded in Lusa to Artemis the Gentle, because thou tookest from his daughters the spirit of wildness.
• O Lady of Munychia, Watcher of Harbours, hail, Lady of Pherae! Let none disparage Artemis.
Proof that Artemis exists (from Callimachus - HYMN IV. TO DELOS):
• So she spake and seated her beside the golden throne, even as a hunting hound of Artemis, which, when it hath ceased from the swift chase, sitteth by her feet, and its ears are erect, ever ready to receive the call of the goddess.
Proof that Artemis exists (from the Callimachus - HYMN V. ON THE BATH OF PALLAS):
• ... And yet he shall be companion of the chase to great Artemis.
Proof that Artemis exists (from Sophocles - Electra):
•Ask the huntress Artemis what sin she punished when she stayed the frequent winds at Aulis; or I will tell thee; for we may not learn from her.
•Now by our lady Artemis, thou shalt not fail to pay for this boldness, so soon as Aegisthus returns.
•Nay, by ever-virgin Artemis, I will never stoop to fear women, stay-at-homes, vain burdens of the ground!
Proof that Artemis exists (from The History of Herodotus - Book II):
•The Bubastis of the Egyptians is the same as the Artemis (Diana) of the Greeks.
Proof that Artemis exists (from PAUSANIAS - i):
•[1.1.4] The Athenians have also another harbor, at Munychia, with a temple of Artemis of Munychia, and yet another at Phalerum, as I have already stated, and near it is a sanctuary of Demeter.
•[1.14.5] ... This is the victory of which I am of opinion the Athenians were proudest; while Aeschylus, who had won such renown for his poetry and for his share in the naval battles before Artemisium and at Salamis, recorded at the prospect of death nothing else, and merely wrote his name, his father's name, and the name of his city, and added that he had witnesses to his valor in the grove at Marathon and in the Persians who landed there.
•[1.19.6] Across the Ilisus is a district called Agrae and a temple of Artemis Agrotera (the Huntress). They say that Artemis first hunted here when she came from Delos, and for this reason the statue carries a bow.
•[1.21.3] ... This also has a tripod over it, wherein are Apollo and Artemis slaying the children of Niobe.
•[1.23.7] I remember looking at other things also on the Athenian Acropolis, a bronze boy holding the sprinkler, by Lycius son of Myron, and Myron's Perseus after beheading Medusa. There is also a sanctuary of Brauronian Artemis; the image is the work of Praxiteles, but the goddess derives her name from the parish of Brauron. The old wooden image is in Brauron, the Tauric Artemis as she is called.
•[1.26.4] Near the statue of Olympiodorus stands a bronze image of Artemis surnamed Leucophryne, dedicated by the sons of Themistocles; for the Magnesians, whose city the King had given him to rule, hold Artemis Leucophryne in honor.
•[1.29.2] ... As you go down to it you come to a precinct of Artemis, and wooden images of Ariste (Best) and Calliste (Fairest). In my opinion, which is supported by the poems of Pamphos, these are surnames of Artemis.
•[1.31.1] ... At Alimus is a sanctuary of Demeter Lawgiver and of the Maid, and at Zoster (Girdle) on the coast is an altar to Athena, as well as to Apollo, to Artemis and to Leto.
•[1.31.4] Such is the legend. Phlya and Myrrhinus have altars of Apollo Dionysodotus, Artemis Light-bearer, Dionysus Flower-god, the Ismenian nymphs and Earth, whom they name the Great goddess;
•[1.31.5] Athmonia worships Artemis Amarysia.
•[1.33.1] XXXIII. At some distance from Marathon is Brauron, where, according to the legend, Iphigenia, the daughter of Agamemnon, landed with the image of Artemis when she fled from the Tauri; leaving the image there she came to Athens also and afterwards to Argos. There is indeed an old wooden image of Artemis here, but who in my opinion have the one taken from the foreigners I will set forth in another place.
•[1.36.1] XXXVI. But I will return to my subject. In Salamis is a sanctuary of Artemis, and also a trophy erected in honor of the victory which Themistocles the son of Neocles won for the Greeks.
•[1.38.6] The Eleusinians have a temple of Triptolemus, of Artemis of the Portal, and of Poseidon Father, and a well called Callichorum (Lovely dance), where first the women of the Eleusinians danced and sang in praise of the goddess.
•[1.40.2] Not far from this fountain is an ancient sanctuary, and in our day likenesses stand in it of Roman emperors, and a bronze image is there of Artemis surnamed Saviour. is a story that a detachment of the army of Mardonius, having over run Megaris, wished to return to Mardonius at Thebes, but that by the will of Artemis night came on them as they marched, and missing their way they turned into the hilly region.
•[1.40.3] ... For this reason they had an image made of Artemis Saviour. Here are also images of the gods named the Twelve, said to be the work of Praxiteles. But the image of Artemis herself was made by Strongylion.
•[1.41.3] Not far from the tomb of Hyllus is a temple of Isis, and beside it one of Apollo and of Artemis.
• ...Alcathous therefore, son of Pelops, attacked the beast and overcame it, and when he came to the throne he built this sanctuary, surnaming Artemis Agrotera (Huntress) and Apollo Agraeus (Hunter).
•[1.41.6] ...Let so much suffice for Alcathous and for the lion, whether it was on Cithaeron or elsewhere that the killing took place that caused him to make a temple to Artemis Agrotera and Apollo Agraeus.
•[1.43.1] ... Now I have heard another account of Iphigenia that is given by Arcadians and I know that Hesiod, in his poem A Catalogue of Women, says that Iphigenia did not die, but by the will of Artemis is Hecate.
• ... A sanctuary of Artemis was made by Agamemnon when he came to persuade Calchas, who dwelt in Megara, to accompany him to Troy.
•[1.44.2] In it is a noteworthy Apollo, Artemis also, and Leto, and other statues, made by Praxiteles.
•[1.44.4] In Pagae a noteworthy relic is a bronze image of Artemis surnamed Saviour, in size equal to that at Megara and exactly like it in shape.
Proof that Artemis exists (from PAUSANIAS - vii):
•[7.2.6] ... The sanctuary of Apollo at Didymi, and his oracle, are earlier than the immigration of the Ionians, while the cult of Ephesian Artemis is far more ancient still than their coming.
•[7.6.6] ... A likeness of this Adrastus in bronze was dedicated in front of the sanctuary of Persian Artemis by the Lydians, who wrote an inscription to the effect that Adrastus died fighting for the Greeks against Leonnatus.
•[7.18.8] On the acropolis of Patrae is a sanctuary of Artemis Laphria.
•[7.18.9] ... It is said that the goddess was surnamed Laphria after a man of Phocis, because the ancient image of Artemis was set up at Calydon by Laphrius, the son of Castalius, the son of Delphus.
•[7.18.10] Others say that the wrath of Artemis against Oeneus weighed as time went on more lightly (elaphroteron) on the Calydonians, and they believe that this was why the goddess received her surname.
•[7.18.11] Every year too the people of Patrae celebrate the festival Laphria in honor of their Artemis, and at it they employ a method of sacrifice peculiar to the place.
•[7.18.12] The festival begins with a most splendid procession in honor of Artemis, and the maiden officiating as priestess rides last in the procession upon a car yoked to deer.
•[7.19.1] The Ionians who lived in Aroe, Antheia and Mesatis had in common a precinct and a temple of Artemis surnamed Triclaria, and in her honor the Ionians used to celebrate every year a festival and an all-night vigil.
•[7.19.3] The history of Melanippus, like that of many others, proved that love is apt both to break the laws of men and to desecrate the worship of the gods, seeing that this pair had their fill of the passion of love in the sanctuary of Artemis.
• ... Forthwith the wrath of Artemis began to destroy the inhabitants; the earth yielded no harvest, and strange diseases occurred of an unusually fatal character.
• ... The oracle ordered that they themselves should be sacrificed to Artemis, and that every year a sacrifice should be made to the goddess of the fairest youth and the fairest maiden.
•[7.19.6] The sacrifice to Artemis of human beings is said to have ceased in this way.
•[7.20.1] It was in this way that they used to array of old those whom they led to be sacrificed to Artemis.
•[7.20.7] ... Opposite the marketplace by this exit is a precinct and temple of Artemis, the Lady of the Lake.
•[7.24.1] XXIV. By the market-place at Aegium is a temple shared by Apollo and Artemis in common; and in the market-place there is a sanctuary of Artemis, who is represented in the act of shooting an arrow, and also the grave of Talthybius the herald.
•[7.26.3] The Hyperesians gave their city its present name of Aegeira from the goats (aiges), and where the most beautiful goat, which led the others, crouched, they built a sanctuary of Artemis the Huntress, believing that the trick against the Sicyonians was an inspiration of Artemis.
•[7.26.5] There is also a temple of Artemis, with an image of the modern style of workmanship.
•[7.26.11] ... There are sanctuaries of Dionysus and of Artemis.
•[7.27.3] Above the temple of Athena is a grove, surrounded by a wall, of Artemis surnamed Saviour, by whom they swear their most solemn oaths.
•[7.27.4] Near the sanctuary of Apollo is a temple of Artemis, the goddess being represented in the attitude of shooting.
Untrue. He was saying that the bill had to score a certain way with the CBO so that it kept costs and taxes in check - meant to bring on Republicans (Olympia Snowe did end up voting for it in the Finance Committee), and provide cover for conservative Dems.
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