Haha, alright calm down. I'll stick to the subject.............

Hahaha...I'm pretty sure most Chicanos have more important things to worry about than attacking gays who decide to get married.

Look at California. There are plenty of Mexicans and plenty of gay people there, yet I haven't seen any lynchings.

Yeah that's partly what happened with blacks in California with prop 8. So how about we hold off on this plan until we get a supreme court decision that guarantees gays the right to marry. Sound good?

This is the first one of your debates I have agreed with Joe. You've stumbled upon a great idea. I have one addition though:

Since illegals apparently hate Mexico (they'd do anything to leave after all), we should get more Mexicans in the U.S. Now all we have to do is find a large number of Mexicans who want to live in the U.S. Any ideas where we could find that Señor?

Faith is belief in that which there is no evidence for. How can your faith strengthen by arguing...wouldn't argument cause you to be more secure in your logical understanding of religion, making faith less necessary?

What do atheists struggle with?

No, you did not invent the media stereotype.

Of course not, but I had something very specific in mind when I said media stereotype.

Is there something more profound in rap than I am missing?

There is in the song I was referring to, and numerous other songs. I'd be happy to give some examples and explain why there is more.

Also there are plenty of good rappers who aren't black... you are aware of this right?

Yes, maybe he should. I'm sure it would be much more popular. It doesn't matter. Everything loses its authenticity when misheard.

Most people who listen to his music don't mishear what he said. It's not difficult to understand if you try and listen a little.

If you go into a song expecting to dislike it, then probably you won't hear the lyrics right.

Why do you need to know this?

I don't, just curious. If you're not comfortable telling me then no worries.

That joke was funny when I heard it the first time.

But if you want to steal jokes and base whole debates off them, I guess I can't stop you.

Ughhhh...I'm not getting into another argument about liberals with you. I give up, you are beyond reasoning with.

Congrats on finding the only people on earth who think Nickelback are better than the Beatles. I may have taken their position more seriously though if they spelled Nickelback right.

I've already argued with EnigmaticMan, I don't plan on doing it twice. If you have any original opinions present them. Otherwise don't waste my time.

Rap is becoming common to use as background noise in film...

Sorry if I don't consider you knowledgeable because you heard it in a couple movies.

Definition of "song"

Semantics...you know what I meant.

Is that not what rap is?

Here is throat-singing. I actually saw a pretty cool documentary about it. I'm still of the opinion that it sounds awful though.

But that makes a world of difference...

And I like the way that they are delivered...love it in fact. My only point was that since we obviously aren't going to agree on that, we should concentrate on something that is less reliant on subjective musical tastes.

Then why doesn't the radio play better songs?

Ask the people who own the radio stations. A lot of time popular opinion of songs is pretty bad. People don't always want to listen to music with intellectual meanings, but would rather hear someone talking about their gold studded teeth.

Ice T

He was pretty good back in the day. No one of my favorites though.

If you are interested in listening to a couple rap songs I consider good, I also posted Get By by Talib Kweli. Or don't if you don't want to.

I did. I liked it, somewhat; however, EnigmaticMan had a terrific response to your interpretation.

Once again, get an original opinion about the song, or my interpretation of it and we can talk.

The most meaningful lyrics, if badly written, are of little value.

Fortunately "Dumb it Down" is written amazingly well.

Well, then my interpretation of media stereotype is better.

Your interpretation of what I said is better than my own...okay, sure.

As am I.

Black rapper, and drumbeat...real deep analysis.

Honestly, that was very unintelligent. I could barely understand the lyrics, and furthermore, I did catch multiple swear words (which undoubtedly fits the media stereotype of rap).

If you want the lyrics, here they are.

The swearing you heard was satirical. Lupe wasn't the one swearing, but instead it was another rapper who was supposed to represent mainstream rap.

If you actually tried to understand the song next time then maybe I wouldn't have to sit you down like a child and explain it to you.

Well congratulations to Lupe! Unfortunately, I could not understand half of what he said, so in actuality, it was rather pointless.

Maybe he should make it into a sing-a-long with the words at the bottom and a bouncing ball. Would you understand it then? Probably not? Well, I don't know if I can help you there.

Out of curiosity what type of music do you like?

Short and distilled for your pleasure.

First:

You've convinced me, New York is a very well written song with meanings that are beyond superficial. I did about a poor a job interpreting that as you did with "Dumb it Down."

2nd:

The first fact does nothing to diminish how well written "Dumb it Down is"

3rd

Funny you should criticize "Dumb it Down" for being based on culture when "New York" does the same.

4th

If you are bigoted against blacks and black culture then I guess there is nothing I can say that will convince you that good music can be produced from these people.

5th

While the lyrics of many rappers are meaningless, I don't use this as an excuse to throw out the whole genre. Were this the case then there would likely be few genres I could listen to.

6th

Free-styling is when someone plays a beat and someone raps to it without anything written down beforehand. It's like improv, but with rap.

7th

I laughed when you said that "All Along the Watchtower" was your first choice. At least we have some common ground.

8th

I enjoy the music of other cultures, even if I don't fully understand them. I've listened to cuban hip-hop, Mexican rock, french techno and a million other things that I enjoy. If we isolate ourselves within our own culture then things can get boring. I try not to be so arrogant as to assume that my own culture is the best.

If I missed any important points that you wanted me to address just bring them up in your response to this.

Also, send me a link to your debate with maholinder if you don't mind. I'd be happy to see your scientific arguments against global warming.

I think you misinterpreted what I meant by media stereotype.

I was talking not about the style of music, but the content. In the media rap is often portrayed as womanizing, violent and unintelligent. I was giving examples of rappers whose lyrics do not fall into this category. Lupe's song actually is criticizing those rappers who make music that is misogynistic and unintelligent.

You seriously need to buy a dictionary/actually pay attention to my arguments. I didn't generalize anyone, except maybe people who think Nickelback is better than the Beatles. These people need a fork stabbed in their ear. There I said it, so sue me. I'm not sure how this counts as a generalization since I'm not actually sure there are any people who hold the opinion that the Beatles were less talented than Nickelback. There are certainly people who would rather listen to Nickelback, but this isn't what I was saying (try to keep up).

So you are saying that the only way in which one cannot like the lyrics is to not understand them? I read EnigmaticMan's dispute, and agreed with it for the most part. I just don't like rap, regardless of the meaning.

No, my point was that you Terminator, don't understand the lyrics. Not people in general, not people who like this or that music, but you. Go ahead an prove me wrong if you want.

I also don't care one way or another if you like to listen to the music. Like I said to enigmaticman, I don't like classical music but Beethoven was clearly a very good artist, and I am not going to take that away from him just because I don't like to listen to his songs.

I've heard rap before. There was even a tune or two which I thought of as "catchy". I daren't venture any further, though; the overall quality is heinous to say the least.

As I've had to explain a hundred times in this debate, I don't care about "catchy" tunes. For all that it matters to this argument they could have been throat-singing while scraping their nails on the chalkboard. I was arguing about the lyrics, not the way in which they are delivered.

As far as the majority of the genre in this respect, you may have a point if you are talking about the stuff on the radio. That's why I provided good examples of rap, and didn't just say rap in general.

Perhaps I did try, but simply not in writing on this site?

Or perhaps you didn't? Why do you phrase it as a question. You know whether you did or didn't and if you did and I was wrong then show me...or even easier, look at my interpretation (since I already agree with it) and argue either a) why you think I'm wrong about this interpretation or b) why I'm right, but the song still sucks. This is pretty straightforward...I've already done all the work, and if you continue along your current trend so has enigmaticman since you're just going to repeat whatever he said.

Define "good".

Well we're talking about lyrics, so meaningful would be a good word to use. And I mean that in multiple ways.

I thought it was quite a novel way to argue.

Argue? There was no argument, you just admitted to being a stubborn nutjob who believes in government conspiracies and refuses to listen to science. I can understand though if you're frustrated on being called out about your lack of knowledge on a subject. I would be too if I regarded my own intelligence as highly as you do yours. Must be a great shock when you go into reality and find you are mistaken.

Also, are you seriously dumb enough to think that capitalism and environmentalism are incompatible? Not on topic, so feel free to ignore this...just was wondering since I never really understood your logic here.

(A), (C), and (D)

Disagree. Tens of millions of people listen to hip-hop/rap on a regular basis, and therefore the messages portrayed in these songs are some of the most influential in all of music (hip-hop/rap has influences that spread into many other nations around the world). Lupe's concern about the messages portrayed in rap go deeper than merely dissing other rappers. Like I've said a couple times before, he seriously bothered by the objectification of women in rap songs and thinks it is a serious issue. On this point I would have to agree. Girls growing up, listening to music that refers to them as nothing more than something to fuck is a real problem, and by standing up and pointing this fact out to an audience that may not want to hear it, Lupe is being (as he says) fearless. Now obviously you don't listen to rap so the issue isn't as important to you, but Lupe is talking to people who grew up listening almost entirely to rap. These are people who freestyle with their friends on weekends (harder than it sounds by the way, only a couple of my friends are decent at it) and many of whom see being discovered as a rap artist as the only way to get out of their situation.

Materialism is another aspect of hip-hop that Lupe is arguing against, and once again I agree with his criticism. It's not news to anyone that most rap songs glorify lavish lifestyles, just turn on MTV cribs to see what I'm talking about. Gold chains, tricked out cars, even gold teeth...these are common subjects in rap songs. It doesn't take a genius to realize how unintelligent lyrics like these are.

None of this really makes a difference though since you don't believe your own criticisms. Your own opinion of hip-hop/rap was that it was unintelligent before we started this debate. Scroll up and look, if you disagree...the proof is there.

Lupe isn't allowed to criticize the fans of other artists, because that right is yours exclusively? Your logic is incomprehensible.

How should he have responded if he sees a problem? "Um could you guys please stop making songs that degrade women? I would really appreciate that, thanks." Something tells me that this probably wouldn't get his message across to his listeners.

Nor does your argument about the theme being important to you really undermine the song's message or lyrics. I care little about the issues of 19th century industrial workers in England, yet I can still recognize Hard Times by Charles Dickens as an extremely well written and important novel. You already know this since you don't live in New York (or maybe you have in the past, correct me if I'm wrong) and yet you recognize the lyrics of U2's song as being meaningful.

As far as the self promoting part (A), even Shakespere bragged about himself in his sonnets. Your arguments about envy and spite are unfounded as well since the entire tone of the song is humorous. Once again, should he be politely asking the other rappers who write songs like Move Bitch to kindly stop degrading women? Face it, the only reason you have issue with this is because you went into this debate with certain notions about rap, and regardless of what evidence is shown to you, you will see what you want.

Which brings us to (E).

I told you that doesn't matter. We are trying to move beyond subjectivity a little. Were you to argue something like: "I don't like most rap because it is simplistically written and I disagree with the themes presented by many mainstream rappers" then you would have a legitimate argument. Actually that sounds familiar...

Now, below I shall provide another set of lyrics which I consider to be good:

What, you realize that New York wasn't a good example? I have no issue with U2 as a band (saw them last year in concert actually), and Bono's work with charities is inspiring. What confused me though is that I gave you the oppurtunity to choose any song in any genre, and you chose the one you did. I'm not trying to argue that "Dumb it Down" is the pinnacle of lyricism, but it is extremely well written. Does this mean that there are better songs out there? Almost certainly. Hell, I can think of some pretty quickly. All along the watchtower by Bob Dylan was written in the spirit of the Beat movement of the 60's and the lyrics can be classified more as a poem then the lyrics to a song (although the song itself is good too). My point with this being that finding another good song in and of itself doesn't show that Lupe's song is poorly written, unless it is somehow leaps and bounds better. Or to put it another way: no one could argue that Ted Kaczynski wasn't a bad man because Osama Bin Laden is worse.

I did ask for an example of a song that does have good lyrics though, and if your point was valid then that song should not even be comparable lyrically to Lupe's song. It should be so much better that it makes Lupe's song look like it was written by a child, since you claim that the song (and all of rap) was terrible. I think I showed pretty conclusively that, at the very least Lupe's song is well written, and at best exceeds in quality the lyrics to "New York" by a large margin. You are unmoved however, so I will analyze the song of your choosing.

Why is his rap better simply because he proclaims it to be?

First, the whole thing is tongue-in-cheek. Second, he's not the only one since nearly every reviewer agrees. And even those who think his album The Cool was only good, and not great still point to "Dumb it Down" as a very intelligent and well written song. Even Jay-Z, one of the most respected rappers of all time, has called him a "genius rapper."

The guy is having fun with this rap, and if you actually paid attention you would see this. He's confident yes, but not to the point of "spite and anger" as you proclaim. Now, maybe your not used to music like this, so I can understand if you didn't immediately pick up on the tone, but the chorus alone should have clued you into that.

Again you presume too much (and To kill a mocking bird is better).

I said that you may not be used to the language. Maybe you are and I'm mistaken, and if so great. The song will be easier to understand. With your petty complaints about grammar though, I'd say it's a good bet you aren't too familiar with it.

Unrelated but I'll comment anyway: while To Kill a Mockingbird is a great novel, and certainly an American classic that deals well with race in the American south, Mark Twain's novel is historically more important because it is one of the first major literary critiques of the racism that existed in the south. Hemmingway said: "All modern American literature comes from" Huck Finn. I also enjoyed it because I am partial to satirical works, which is why Hard Times is my favorite 19th century British novel, and one of the reasons why I enjoy "Dumb it Down."

The windshield is minstrel, the whole grill is roadkill, so trill and so sincere.

when a bloke in a trench coat and the locs in the chair

You skipped a part. I don't know if this was intentional or accidental but here is the full lyric:

The windshield is minstrel, the whole grill is roadkill, so trill and so sincere. Yeah, I'm both them there

Took both pills, when a bloke in a trench coat and the locs in the chair had approached him here

The first line makes reference to the previous line when it uses the metaphor of the car (which I discussed in my previous post). I also talked about how he uses the idea of a minstrel show to compare how the shallow messages of current rappers compare to the shallow and racist portrayal of blacks in these shows. The next part, about roadkill in the grill could be referring to how other rappers are like roadkill in a car that he is driving or, since he gave over the wheel in the last verse it could be that the listeners/rappers are failing to avoid the BS (the deer and chickens) that plague much of rap. The last section of this line is likely referring to Lupe himself when he says he is trill (a slang term coming from the combination of the words "true" and "real" meaning that the rapper is well respected) and sincere.

The second line of the section you quoted is, as I stated previously, is an allusion to the Matrix. I don't know if you've seen the movie, but Neo, the main character (played by Keanu Reeves) is offered two pills (one red, one blue) by a man in a trench coat. The blue pill would transport Neo back to his normal life (which we find out is just an illusion created by computers). The red pill would take Neo out of the "fake" world and into the real one. Lupe, by saying that he is taking both pills, says that he will remain in the rap game, while staying real at the same time.

Now I'm not sure what you found wrong with either of these lines, but I'm here is my interpretation of each if that clears anything up.

Hence the absence of an analysis on your part? Don't worry, I won't run away because your argument is a page-or-two long.

The reason I didn't write a full analysis of the song, was because I thought it was a pointless exercise. I mean you tried to analyze "Dumb it Down", and for the most part it was a waste of time for both of us. You are the one who is convinced "New York" is a good song, so I assumed you would be the one to try and convince me. The way you want to go about doing this is backwards. But fine, you want an analysis then an analysis you shall get. Like you when you analyzed the Lupe song, song however, I will be hindered by the fact that I am not familiar with the song. I'll do my best though:

In New York freedom looks like

Too many choices

This is clearly a reference to how much there is to do in New York, as well as a statement about how freedom, one of America's most important values, is so clearly exemplified in the daily life of New York. He also gives a slight negative connotation to the idea that there are too many choices, which probably refers to the whole idea that in our modern life we are offered so many options that it can be overwhelming. Reminds me of the line (I forget who said it) 200 channels, and not one good thing on T.V.

In New York I found a friend

To drown out the other voices

Either this means that he met someone in New York who mattered to him, or, more likely, that New York was the friend he made which allowed him to settle his nerves. It was a place he really fit in.

Voices on the cell phone

Voices from home

Voices of the hard sell

Voices down the stairwell

In New York

These lines appear to be a representation of the singers anxieties which are soothed by his New friend (see what I did there?). He is constantly barraged by cell phone calls, his family, advertisements and...well I don't know what he's referencing with voices down the stairwell. Maybe there's a lot of buildings in New York, and thus lots of stairwells? If you have thoughts on this go right ahead and clue me in.

Just got a place in New York

This is part of the narrative that he is going to be referring to throughout the rest of the song. Obviously he just moved to New York.

In New York summers get hot

Well into the hundreds

You can't walk around the block

Without a change of clothin'

Summers being hot obviously can refer to the literal temperature being so hot that people sweat through their clothes. On a deeper level he may be referring to all the activity that goes on in New York, and how many people have to show multiple versions of themselves when they go from place to place.

Hot as a hairdryer in your face

Hot as a handbag and a can of mace

New York

I just got a place in New York

You analyzed part of this section, and there isn't all that much else there (so far as I can see, of course feel free to point out what I missed). The hairdryer in your face part is a pretty good comparison to a muggy day in new york.

In New York you can forget

Forget how to sit still

Tell yourself you will stay in

But it's down to Alphaville

Relatively straightforward lyric. With the hustle and bustle of New York it's impossible to not be constantly doing something. There is always something going on so you can't stay in. I don't get the Alphaville reference...a place in New York maybe?

The Irish have been comin' here for years

Feel like they own the place

They got the airport, city hall, asphalt, dance floor

They even got the police

Referring to the history of Irish immigrants in New York and their current political influence. Also a reference to Bono's own Irish heritage (presumably he is the one moving there? I don't know if this song is based on a real story or not)

Irish, Italians, Jews and Hispanics

Religious nuts, political fanatics in the stew

Happily, not like me and you

That's where I lost you, New York

Singer is commenting on the fact that there is a lot of diversity in New York, and a wide variety of different perspectives on things like religion and politics. The singer is saying that he and his wife are not like these ideological extremists, however.

We also get another piece of information about the singers personal life, in that he lost his wife after they moved to New York.

In New York I lost it all

To you and your vices

Still I'm stayin' on to figure out

My mid life crisis

Here is the interesting part, story wise. It appears that while in New York something in their relationship went wrong and his wife left the city. The singer, on the other hand, is trying to deal with his mid-life crisis, by staying in the city, which he clearly loves.

I hit an iceberg in my life

You know I'm still afloat

You lose your balance, lose your wife

In the queue for the lifeboat

More juicy story lines. The comparison of his life to the sinking of the titanic is apparent and shows how dramatically and quickly his life has become a shipwreck. The singer is still surviving, but only barely and now without his wife.

You got to put the women and children first

But you've got an unquenchable thirst for New York

Now it's beginning to look like he gave up his wife and kids for the city itself. He allowed the city to get in the way of his family and now they have left him, yet still he refuses to leave New York.

In the stillness of the evening

When the sun has had it's day

I heard your voice whisperin'

Come away now

Perhaps a final request by his wife to leave the city before he loses his family? Either the ending is ambiguous (he leaves or he doesn't and we don't know which) or as previous lines suggested, he stays in the city and doesn't leave.

So that's what I got from the song. Assuming I didn't fuck it up royally (a big assumption for me to make) then I would argue that while "New York" may be a good and well written song, it still doesn't compare to "Dumb it Down" if we are judging both on lyrical content. I'm not going to say much more about it here though since you still need to tell me if I did the song justice (which is why this whole system of analyzing each others songs is backwards).

Seems like you completely missed the political commentary to me.

Well now I've missed it twice. How about we stop playing hide and go seek, and you just point out what I am clearly too thick to perceive.

I disagree.

While that's well and good, I provided an argument.

So at one point you believe most rap is lyrically deficient, and at others you believe it is superior to all other genres, exclusively because of its lyrics.

Ughhhhhh...I thought I was pretty clear about this but I'll spell it out.

I think that most mainstream rappers have songs with hollow meanings and not a lot of depth. What these rappers can do though is write clever rhymes that usually have two meanings. The underlying theme of these rhymes though are usually about misogyny, violence or other equally shallow ideas (gold chains for example).

Understand? These rappers are good with lyrics, but aren't really saying anything worth hearing. Lupe is both good at creating clever lyrics, and is talking about meaningful subjects. This is why he stands out.

And I find it amusing that you are unaware of your own lack of ability, and wish to point out the irony of that statement. You misinterpreted New York, and now you accuse me of misinterpreting Dumb it Down.

How did I misinterpret "New York"? I'm not disagreeing, and I very well could have (in fact probably did) but you offer no reasons on how I misinterpreted it. In short, show me where I fucked up. I'm assuming that if you had a good argument about how I fucked it up you would have presented it, for no other reason than to make me look bad. If this isn't the case however, and you do have a legitimate reason why I am inept at interpreting "New York" then go right ahead.

Do you actually wish for me to do that? It is not a brief undertaking to decipher a poem, even a part of it. It can take hours to type, not to mention the point that poems have many meanings, and that it is virtually impossible to be wrong if you back up your assertions. To run through all the interpretations (even my own) is something I am simply unwilling to do.

Oh god no, that's not what I meant at all. I might not be nice, but I'm not a sadist. My point was that you often can't understand a good piece of poetry merely by reading over it once. I definitely didn't want you to analyze "The Wasteland" though. That would have been terrible (unless you're into that thing). I also don't think that it's interpretation would serve any purpose whatsoever.

To be clear: no need to interpret anything.

This seems masochistic to me.

I enjoyed ever single play. It's also one of the reasons I didn't mind writing a critique of it, because it allowed me to think critically about the lyrics, and revel in Lupe's genius. I'm not asking you to be a fan though, just to get a little perspective on why I am.

Your illusions of intellectual superiority neither amuse nor intimidate me. In your contempt for me and my musical predilections, you reveal yourself to be of the same character of Lupe himself. While dragging oneself out of a ghetto is commendable, I wish that he would leave the idiosyncrasies behind; they are clearly infecting you.

Feeling a little insecure are we? I'm surprised you haven't brought up meaningless test scores yet.

I don't lay claim to any intellectual superiority. You aren't an idiot clearly, but you are arrogant and this is the only quality of yours I don't like, because it blinds you from the legitimacy of other's points of view. Don't mistake this as disdain or hatred though...you could be a great guy for all I know. I just know that on this site, you tend to act like someone whose opinion of himself is larger than the highest sky scrapers in New York.

I've addressed all this in my response to enigmaticman's post. Please go to my most recent one.

Just because you don't understand what the lyrics mean doesn't mean they aren't complex...it means you're either close minded, or thick (or both). Once again refer to my most recent response to enigmaticman if you want to know why I described these lyrics as complex. Unlike you, he at least tried to understand what the meaning of the lyrics was. Who knows? You may even learn something about good music.

There is no definitive way to value poetry...

That was my point. Thank you for reiterating it.

How do you know that?

Because I didn't get dropped as a child. Also I have ears.

That is a strange conclusion to make. There is an incredible amount of cultural difference between western democracies.

Eh, I guess it's relative, but my point was that we aren't arguing about peruvian hip-hop or Tuvan throat-singing so I think that we both understand the relevant cultures enough to meaningfully comment about them.

I shall enjoy this. First, I shall attempt to discern the meaning of the lyrics, in the context that you have provided:

Good, I'll enjoy it too. I love music so it should be fun.

Sorry I didn't go through the whole song and analyze it but last time I tried putting a lot of effort into a debate with you, you ended up just giving a trite response. Now that I know you plan on putting thought into this discussion (thank you for doing so by the way) I will be happy to discuss the song, which I think can be judged as better than the U2 song you provided on a level that is more than subjective.

First, the full lyrics:

[Verse 1:]

I'm fearless

Now hear this

I'm earless

And I'm peer-less

That means I'm eyeless

Which means I'm tearless

Which means my iris resides where my ears is

Which means I'm blinded

But I'mma find it I can feel it's nearness

But I'mma veer so I don't come near

Like a chicken or a deer

But I remember I'm not a listener or a seer so my windshield smear

Here, you steer, I really shouldn't be behind this, clearly cause my blindness

The windshield is minstrel, the whole grill is roadkill, so trill and so sincere. Yeah, I'm both them there

Took both pills, when a bloke in a trench coat and the locs in the chair had approached him here

And he clear as a ghost, so a biter of the throats in the mirror

The writer of the quotes for the ghosts who supplier of the notes to the living

Riveting is rosy, pockets full of posies, given to the mother of the deceased. Awaken at war, 'til I'm restin' in peace

[Chorus 1:]

You goin' over niggas' heads Lu (Dumb it down)

They tellin' me that they don't feel you (Dumb it down)

We ain't graduate from school nigga (Dumb it down)

Them big words ain't cool nigga (Dumb it down)

Yeah I heard Mean And Vicious nigga (Dumb it down)

Make a song for the bitches nigga (Dumb it down)

We don't care about the weather nigga (Dumb it down)

You'll sell more records if you (Dumb it down)

[Verse 2:]

And I'm mouthless

Which means I'm soundless

Now as far as the hearing, I've found it

It was as far as the distance from an earring to the ground is

But the doorknockers on the ear of a stewardess in a Lear

She fine and she flyin, I feel I'm flying by'em 'cause my mind's on cloud nine and in her mind at the same time

Pimp C the wings on the underground king

Who's also Klingon

To infinity and beyond

Something really stinks, but I Spinks like Leon

Or lying in the desert

I'm flying on Pegasus you're flying on the pheasant

Rider of the white powder, picker of the fire flowers, spit hot fire like Dylon on Chappelle's skit

Yeah, smell it on my unicorn, don't snort the white horse, but toot my own horn (sleep)

[Chorus 2:]

You've been shedding too much light Lu (Dumb it down)

You make'em wanna do right Lu (Dumb it down)

They're getting self-esteem Lu (Dumb it down)

These girls are trying to be queens Lu (Dumb it down)

They're trying to graduate from school Lu (Dumb it down)

They're starting to think that smart is cool Lu (Dumb it down)

They're trying to get up out the hood Lu (Dumb it down)

I'll tell you what you should do (Dumb it down)

[Verse 3:]

And I'm brainless

Which means I'm headless

Like Ichabod Crane is

Or foreplay-less sex is

Which makes me stainless

With no neck left to hang the chain with

Which makes me necklace-less

Like a necklace theft

And I ain't used my headrest yet

They said they need proof like a vestless chest 'bout the best, fair F-F-jet in the nest

Who exudes confidence and excess depth

Even Scuba Steve would find it hard to breathe

Around these leagues

My snorkle is a tuba, Lu the ruler around these seas

Westside Poseidon, Westside beside'em, chest high and rising

Almost touching the knees of stewardess and the pilot

Lucky they make you flowered

Personal floating devices, tricks falling out of my sleeves

David Blaine

Make it rain

You Make a boat

I make a plane

Then, I pull the plug and I make it drain

Until I feel like flowing and filling it up again..(Westside)

[Chorus 3:]

You putting me to sleep nigga (Dumb it down)

That's why you ain't popping in the streets nigga (Dumb it down)

You ain't winning no awards nigga (Dumb it down)

Robots and skateboards nigga? (Dumb it down)

GQ Man Of The Year G? (Dumb it down)

Shit ain't rocking over here B (Dumb it down)

Won't you talk about your cars nigga? (Dumb it down)

And what the fuck is goyard nigga (Dumb it down)

Make it rain for the chicks (Dumb it down)

Pour champagne on a bitch (Dumb it down)

What the fuck is wrong with you? (Dumb it down)

How can I get on a song with you? (Dumb it down)

[Gemini: talking]

Look B, here's my man, my two way, (hey) uh, what should I - ah here take this (hey) that right there, fuck what my boys talk about nigga, (hey) nigga you hot to me, I like you (Dumb it down)

[Lupe:]

Bishop G, they told me I should come down cousin, but I flatly refuse I ain't dumb down nothing

Now the first verse (the one you analyzed) is him talking to the fans of hip-hop/rap that he considers ignorant. In the first line he claims he is fearless because the whole song is essentially taking on the established paradigm of rap's subject matter which often is unintelligent and degrading to women (a common theme in Lupe's songs is criticizing those rappers which degrade women).

By saying that he is earless, peerless and eyeless he is saying that he can't hear or see the critics (which are represented in the chorus) and that because of this he is tearless...in other words these critics don't bother him. Obviously the peerless part is a double entendre which could mean that he either has no equal when it comes to rap, or that no other rappers are doing what he is doing by criticizing the ignorance of many hip-hop artists.

Another interpretation of this verse is that he is talking about blinded fans looking instead of listening ("which means my iris resides where my ears is"). The bullshit that exists in many rap songs is blinding, but Lupe says I'mma veer so I don't come near. The 'chicken or a deer" part is simply a metaphor about how he avoids the BS prevelant in mainstream rap like people avoid animals in the road (although if you can think of an alternative meaning I'd love to hear it...knowing Lupe there might be one).

The line about him not being "a listener or a seer" means that he can't see clearly (my windshield smear) because he is the artist and not the audience. He doesn't have the proper perspective to judge his own lyrics and therefore hands over the wheel to the audience though, but they don't avoid what he had to veer away from so "the whole grill is roadkill. Another interpretation of this verse is that he is thinking about giving up the wheel entirely by separating himself from the rap game entirely because it is a "minstrel" show. (If your not familiar with what this is, it was when white people dressed in blackface and acted like caricature of black people. What Lupe is saying is that those people raping the the songs are portraying blacks no better.)

In his next line he makes a reference to the matrix by saying he took both pills. What this likely means is that he is living in two worlds at the same time: the BS one created by ignorant hip-hop artists, and the "real" one which is where he believes the truth to lie. He is both a part of the hip-hop/rap world and removed from it at the same time.

"The writer of the quotes for the ghosts who supplier of the notes to the living" appears to be him saying that he is a ghostwriter for ghost writers.

In the final line of this verse he talks about how he is "Riveting as Rosie" which is a reference to the WWII Rosie the Riveter poster. This is a reference both to how good his raps are, and how he is looking to empower women with his rhymes...something not often seen in hip-hop/rap songs. This reference also relates to the rest of the line which goes Awaken at war, 'til I'm restin' in peace which likely means that he will be fighting until he dies to change the hip-hop/rap game for the better.

The first Chorus is relatively self explanatory. It represents the pressure put on rappers (and specifically on Lupe) to conform to the standard themes of hip-hop and "dumb down" his lyrics. The first Chorus is mostly concerned with the fact that many of his lyrics are heady, and that most of the uneducated people in the hood don't want to hear that kind of music.

I'm going to stop here for the sake of brevity, and because I think I've made my point.

The extract from "Dumb it Down" contains a host of immodesties

Most of which you misinterpreted (not through any fault of your own, I only gave you a portion of the song and I know how hard it is to search "Dumb it Down" Lyrics on google). He was really saying that he is trying to avoid the BS that rap portrays and how he refuses to dumb down his lyrics for the sake of an ignorant audience. Now you could argue that he is being immodest by claiming that his raps are more intelligent than other rappers, but I doubt he'd find a lot of opposition to that point, especially if we are only looking at mainstream rap.

some superficial contradictions

Are you saying that these phrases are only contradictory on the surface (superficially)? If so then I'd say that this isn't a problem since the song is meant to be read on a deeper level.

some rhyming

Is this a criticism?

and some colloquialisms

The language he is using is the language he grew up using in Chicago, and the language that his audience is familiar with. This may be the only part where cultural differences may create an issue in listening. I'm used to listening to this kind of music so it doesn't bother me, but you may have to force yourself to look past it if your going to look at lyrics like these.

If you are arguing that coloquilisms in a work of art is a negative, however, then I would ask you to read what many consider to be the single most important piece of American fiction: Huckleberry Fin.

as well as an ill conceived metaphor or two

There is quite a few more than one or two metaphors, and any that you interpreted to be ill conceived, likely come from a misunderstanding on your part and not a lack of talent on Lupe's, but if you insist that they are ill conceived then I would be happy to talk about any specific lines.

Like I said before, Lupe's lyrics are extremely complex and I get new meanings out of them on almost every listen. Therefore i likely missed something when going through the song, and possibly misinterpreted a thing or two.

Your U2 song on the other hand is relatively straightforward. While it uses one or two lines that are open to multiple interpretations and double meanings, "Dumb it Down" is filled with them. Now this can't be held against "New York" completely because double meanings of rhymes is a huge part of the genre and less so with U2's type of music. Even rap songs I consider to be inferior usually have a couple clever turns of phrase that have meanings deeper than what they first appear to be (one of the reasons I enjoy the genre).

Also, pointing out there's a lot of diversity in New York is pretty weak political commentary. I guess their next song is going to be about how many Christians they see when they go to Church. How edgy.

In short, while I'm sure that U2 wrote a very nice song about New York, it doesn't hold a candle to "Dumb it Down" lyrically. There is a simple reason for this: rap is almost all about the lyrics, and few do it better than Lupe. I find it funny though that you use your own lack of ability to understand the lyrics of "Dumb it Down" as a negative. I know when I read many famous works of poetry the meaning is not apparent immediately to me, but usually I don't just write the whole thing off as shitty. Otherwise I never would have come to like T.S. Eliot's "The Wasteland" (seriously, if you've never read it before, read through a part of it once and see if you can decipher the meaning).

I don't blame you though for not understanding it. I had a serious advantage in that this is a genre I listen to often, and this particular song I've listened to about a hundred times. What you should realize though, is that while "New York" may make one allusion in the whole song (the one about the titanic) there are more allusions than I can count on both hands (and probably at least one foot).

I can understand though if you want simpler songs. They require less thinking, and the meanings are not far below the surface. I wouldn't ask Lupe to do that though because I bet he'd respond with: "*I flatly refuse, I ain't dumb down nothing."

Shouldn't you be off trying to save a polar bear as opposed to "wasting the world's energy reserves" debating with somebody you obviously hold in contempt?

Actually Thursdays are my save the dolphins vegan cupcake sale. Polar bears are every other tuesday.

Good artists in your opinion. They do not count as evidence, as their artistic worth is debatable.

So lets debate it. I wouldn't have presented my thoughts if I wasn't willing to defend them (unlike some people on this site).

only appreciate lyrics if I consider them to be good. You seem to be under the illusion that negative opinions are not suitable responses, whereas positive opinions (your own) are.

No, but you provided no contradictory arguments as to why these lyrics weren't good. My assumption was that if you had some you would have given them...was I mistaken?

Then why is the basis of your argument a subjective opinion of the lyrics?

If the value of lyrics was completely subjective then there would be no way to judge the value of poetry, or even other works of art that rely on words such as novels. All criticism of these works (both positive and negative) could just be countered by saying: "that's just an opinion." And besides, if this were the case, then I would have equal ground on which to argue that a song is good that you do that a song is bad.

Obviously though we know that lyrics aren't wholly subjective. No one (who wasn't dropped as a child) would argue that Nickelback are better artists than The Beatles. Now there are songs that I don't necessarily like to listen to because I don't particularly enjoy the genre, but I will still admit it when a song is well written. I don't particularly like classical music for example, but there is no denying that Beethoven was a genius.

There are obviously cultural differences that can contribute to our appreciation of music, but since we both speak English and both live in western modern democracies (you are from the U.K. right?) then our cultural differences shouldn't be too great.

Nor does my opinion of you matter in a debate. We aren't arguing about each other we are arguing about music, so lets stick to the topic at hand, k? Good.

Now, Lupe Fiasco has better songs than "Dumb it Down" but I chose it because it's one of my personal favorites, and (more importantly) it deals with what you were arguing: the numerous influences that try and dumb down hip-hop/rap music. I would agree with the statement that most hip-hop/rap you hear on the radio is pretty mindless, and sometimes even comes close to the link you posted. Lupe's song is one in which he addresses this issue through the three variations of the chorus. This part in itself is good, but where Lupe really showcases his talents is in the verses. To save you the trouble of having to look it up here is the first verse:

I'm fearless

Now hear this

I'm earless

And I'm peer-less

That means I'm eyeless

Which means I'm tearless

Which means my iris resides where my ears is

Which means I'm blinded

But I'mma find it I can feel it's nearness

But I'mma veer so I don't come near

Like a chicken or a deer

But I remember I'm not a listener or a seer so my windshield smear

Here, you steer, I really shouldn't be behind this, clearly cause my blindness

The windshield is minstrel, the whole grill is roadkill, so trill and so sincere. Yeah, I'm both them there

Took both pills, when a bloke in a trench coat and the locs in the chair had approached him here

And he clear as a ghost, so a biter of the throats in the mirror

The writer of the quotes for the ghosts who supplier of the notes to the living

Riveting is rosy, pockets full of posies, given to the mother of the deceased. Awaken at war, 'til I'm restin' in peace

Like a good movie, the complexity of the rhymes are such that I needed to listen to the song a number of times to fully understand it.

Now, if you disagree that these aren't great lyrics then please actually give reasons this time, and maybe provide a song that you think does exemplify what you consider to be "good lyrics." But once again the option is there for you to just admit you down know what your talking about, and end the argument right now. I'm sure no one will hold it against you :)

Coulda fooled me.

Awww...are you still sore that I pointed out your ignorance on climate change? Poor baby.

Why? Hitler was Austrian.

I know, and what you posted wasn't really rap.

You see, the problem is that I don't care for your opinions on the subject.

No, the problem is that you refuse to listen to any opinions that may differ from your own. I give you four examples of very good artists as opposed to some random guy in his basement, and the most you can do is claim it's just some guy talking over a drumbeat. If you actually understood rap, and its African origins then you would understand that the genre was initially used as a means of telling stories. It's current incarnation (the one we now think of when we hear rap) is a blend of this style and the blues/jazz that came about in the American south over the past 100 years or so. But lets say you don't like the style...that doesn't mean that you shouldn't be able to appreciate the lyrics, which, if you remember was my main point about rap and my main reason for listening to the genre. If you could move past your prejudices, you would realize how lyrically talented the artists I posted really are...instead, you chose to take the low road.

The enjoyment of music is a subjective experience, to be sure, so there is no way to argue someone into liking a genre, artist or particular song. What I can do though is point out that the less subjective part of this music, the words themselves (the most important part of a rap song) are as good as any (and better than the majority of) artists in the history of modern music.

Debatable

You see the difference between you and me is that if our positions were reversed I would at least give whatever genre you wanted to present to me a chance before writing off the whole thing. You on the other hand choose (once again) to be a closed minded snob, who wishes only to bask in his own closed off world hearing his own opinions repeated to him, protected from reality lest it disturb his fragile worldview. Grow up.

But I would argue that we would both come toward the center if we understood each others music. My point was that you aren't in a position to comment on rap because you know nothing about the genre other than maybe its portrayal as a mindless and womanizing genre in the media.

There are rappers out there who are extremely talented...unfortunately these are not the ones that are often played on the radio so people like you (and others in this debate) assume that they don't exist.

Oh come on, I know your smarter than that.

We cannot mistake the worst iteration for the entirety of that thing. He didn't even post the video of a real rapper, just some kid in his basement.

Please read my response to him to get some examples of what I was talking about.

You know you're right. This one rap video that some guy made in his basement is representative of not only the whole genre but also the good quality rappers to which I was referring. Thank you for creating such a well thought out response, and not just repeating the media stereotype of hip-hop-rap music as a completely mindless and womanizing genre. /sarcasm

One might as well use Hitler as an example of why all Germans are evil. If you wanted to be fair about this you could have at least asked what artists I was talking about, but since I'm not a dick I'll at least give you the benefit of the doubt by actually giving some examples:

Get By - by Talib Kweli

I Used to Love HER - Common

Soundtrack to my Life - Kid CuDi

and to prove that not all rappers fall into the media stereotype you hear on the radio (and because Lupe is such a great artist):

I disagree. It is the policy of wikipedia to present only the facts, and not opinions, and therefore articles like the ones you mentioned actually portray their subjects fairly: discussing both the subject and possible criticisms to him/her/it. The moderators of wikipedia tend to do an excellent job of keeping bias out of the articles, and if you actually read some of them you would realize this.

(As a side note there is an entire article dedicated to criticism of marxism, so do some research before you judge).

If I'm not mistaken prayerfails is an atheist, and I think we can both agree that he is certainly not a liberal.

You criticize rap music, but I'm guessing that you know little about the genre. In my own opinion, the good rappers of the past couple years are some of the best lyricists in all of music. Music has gotten a lot better since 200 years ago, not worse.