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They use violence as an intimidation tactic. They use the threat of their violent presence to coerce university administrations (as at UC Berkeley) and municipalities (as in Portland) to acquiescence to their demands that ideas they disagree with are not freely expressed.
The use of violence to create fear, and the use of that fear to advance the suppression of civil rights is a terror tactic.
The employment of terror tactics clearly and unequivocally makes them a terrorist organization.
We have to consider what the two sides stand for. That said, BOTH are wrong, tactivly. We NEED to oppose Naziism and white supremacy, CAN NOT let its foothold grow! Anyone that thinks we should protect these scum with the First Amendment is incredibly naïve! Before it gets out of hand the governments of the states AND Federal AND SCOTUS have to "adjust the First" to protect the COUNTRY! Freedom of speech caused the nation of Germany to fall ... even though it was "armed" freedom of speech! There are ,here, as there was THERE, too much chance AND emotion, to take up arms to protect a VERY dangerous movement that could again take down a country. ANTIFA is WRONG, but only in their methods. A "HATE GROUP" that hates "hate groups"? No, a bunch of SCARED citizens that sees its country going down the drain! TRUMP! SHUT YOUR FLAPPING TRAP! YOU are just making it WORSE!
99.99999999% of Americans aren't of either group. ANTIFA had one single encounter with white supremacists. Their other violent encounters have been with every other group, including innocent people, minorities and even Muslims. Were the buildings they burned and looted White Supremacists? Were the black people they've attacked white supremacists? Are little old ladies white supremacists? Was Starbucks white supremacists? Are random cars that they set on fire white supremacists? Are Indian migrants white supremacists? Are Jews white supremacists? You can call yourself anything. That doesn't make me that thing. If Nazis call themselves anti-hate, that doesn't make them anti-hate. It makes them frauds.
99.999999% of Americans didn't fight the Vietnam war, either.. But, they didn't need to because people like me stepped up.
When push comes to shove, and the battle begins, I think MOST Americans would be on the side of ANY group who were fighting Nazis and white supremacists. I know I would.
When push comes to shove, and the battle begins, I think MOST Americans would be on the side of ANY group who were fighting Nazis and white supremacists. I know I would.
A year ago, the left didn't have a white supremacist narrative. Why? Because we both know it's bullshit. The left is scrambling because it can't believe it lost the Presidency, and is lashing out for any cause, bullshit or otherwise, as an excuse to use violence and become destructive. Burn that flag, right Con? So you kill some klansmen that no one takes seriously. Then what? Behead the Statue of Liberty because she's white?
99.999999% of Americans didn't fight the Vietnam war, either.. But, they didn't need to because people like me stepped up.
So at what point during the war did you decide to help the communists and call the vets white supremacists? Did you ever turn your gun on any of these white, racist soldiers baring the red, white and blue? Did you ever pull your knife on one of your own? Or were you busy fighting...... Communists....
I think MOST Americans would be on the side of ANY group who were fighting Nazis and white supremacists. I know I would.
I disagree. I think most Americans are capable of recognizing that we often have more than one enemy.
I understand you hate Nazis, the KKK & Co.; we all do. Just remember, the world has more than one flavor of asshole, and we don't have to approve of (or lick) any of them, not even ANTIFA.
If members of the KKK were to fight ISIS, it does not follow that you would side with either group, so it makes no sense to side with ANTIFA. They don't just fight White racists. They also:
- Attack ordinary, peaceful people for nothing more than wearing a MAGA hat.
- Riot at universities and destroy university property in order to keep an Orthodox Jewish conservative from speaking.
- Vandalize businesses
- Burn immigrant-owned limousines
- Stab police horses
- Attack cops
- Employ all manner of violence and mayhem as terror tactics to shut down anyone who disagrees with ANY of their extremist views.
BOTH the White supremacists AND ANTIFA are horrible. That whole the-enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend logic leads inevitably to tacit approval of people who are unmitigably horrible.
If members of the KKK were to fight ISIS, it does not follow that you would side with either group, so why would you side with ANTIFA.
There wouldn't be much reason to support one group of extremist religious bigots over any other, but I can think of very salient reasons why it would be good to support people who want to fight fascism.
They don't just fight White racists. They also:
They are anti-fascists. They oppose fascism. They don't oppose businesses, limousines, police, universities or peace, as you seem to be implying. What you are doing is a familiar right wing smear technique called "tarring everybody with the same brush". Hence, if somebody claiming to represent Antifa vandalises a business, you do not look at why the business has been vandalised or whether the vandal truly represents Antifa. Instead, you simply claim Antifa supports vandalising businesses.
The American far right feels threatened by Antifa, and is responding with the familiar smear attacks we have come to expect from them. It is not even a debatable issue. It has already been exposed by the press:-
BOTH the White supremacists AND ANTIFA are horrible.
This is the false equivalence to end all false equivalences. Were the allies equally as horrible as the Nazis and the Italian fascists they were fighting?
They are anti-fascists. They oppose fascism. They don't oppose businesses, limousines, police, universities or peace, as you seem to be implying.
1- I was not implying; I stated it pretty plainly. :)
2- People claiming to be ANTIFA attacked (with sticks, fists, and pepper spray) Trump supporters outside of rallies, and at pro-Trump marches in Berkeley, San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, DC & Sacramento. People carrying ANTIFA signs committed multiple acts of vandalism and pepper sprayed cops in all of these cities.
if somebody claiming to represent Antifa vandalises a business, you do not look at why the business has been vandalised or whether the vandal truly represents Antifa. Instead, you simply claim Antifa supports vandalising businesses.
Fair enough. It is possible the people who did these things were not actually ANTIFA, just claiming to be. By the same token the same could be true of some of the "White Nationalists" saying and doing vile things in public. At some point, however, we need to take people at face value when they carry signs and flags, and say they are members of groups.
As far as why ANTIFA would vandalize businesses, remember that the group is
largely composed of self-identified communists and anarchists. Vandalism and riot are right up Anarchist Alley, and communists are against capitalism and corporate America, so destroying businesses is not an unreasonable thing to expect of them.
Honestly, though, my biggest problem with ANTIFA is that they are against extending the protections of the First Amendment to everyone. They patently and plainly state that it is acceptable to use violence against people who say things they disagree with. Moreover they use some of the same tactics (including violence) as were used by the Nazi Brown Shirts and the Fascisti.
Were the allies equally as horrible as the Nazis and the Italian fascists they were fighting?
I do not throw the rest of the allies in the same category, but it is hard to argue that Stalin was less horrible than Hitler. In fact Stalin intentionally killed more than 20 million civilians (twice what Hitler killed in the Holocaust) and imprisoned and enslaved millions more. Frankly, saying Hitler was as bad as Stalin IS a false equivalency because Stalin was so much worse, but after a certain point, degrees of horrible stop being meaningful.
While I understand using the Soviets to stop Hitler, that does not imply or require validation of Stalin, the communists, or their methods and actions.
Also remember that after World War II, Stalin began taking countries, oppressing their people, and doing to the people of Eastern Europe what he had been doing to the people of the Soviet Union.
So, history does not indicate that it is unrealistic to say a bunch of communists (and anarchists) who say that violence is an appropriate response to saying things they disagree with, (and act on that belief) cannot possibly be as bad as Nazis. Obviously, they can.
Just to make sure you do not misunderstand me, we do not have to choose between ANTIFA, ISIS, White Supremacists, and other racist groups. We can condemn them all as completely awful.
TRUMP! SHUT YOUR FLAPPING TRAP! YOU are just making it WORSE!
So show us all of these horrible thing Trump is doing. I'd love to see some examples, and in particular, I'd love to see "horrible things" that Trump has done as President that Obama himself did not do as President.
Anyone that thinks we should protect these scum with the First Amendment is incredibly naïve! Before it gets out of hand the governments of the states AND Federal AND SCOTUS have to "adjust the First" to protect the COUNTRY!
The problem with changing the First Amendment so that it does not protect people you think say horrible and dangerous things, is that it sets up an incredibly dangerous precedent. What do you do if someone declares that YOUR views are dangerous and horrible? You cannot say anything in your defense, because you no longer have the right.
All folks would have to do is pick idea after idea they disagreed with and declare them all dangerous to the country, until their views are the only ones anyone is allowed to express.
It is better for Free Speech to apply to all, and then have folks like us constantly say that racism and socialism (nationalist and otherwise) and bigotry and violence are all oppressive and damaging things.
Freedom of speech caused the nation of Germany to fall ... even though it was "armed" freedom of speech!
Actually THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE.
By using the same violent tactics that ANTIFA uses, the Nazis stifled freedom of speech and the ability of any opposition groups to speak out. It was the fact that freedom of speech was not protected that caused Germany to fall to the Nazis. This is why ANTIFA is so incredibly dangerous to anyone who loves freedom.
O.K, I have to agree with you. My point is, SOMEONE has to resist the this white supremacist and Nazi movement, and the 1st is giving them more power than they deserve to have. My point is we can NOT allow them to take over, they already have a number of weak minds following them! Democracy is not perfect. Whatever makes it vulnerable to destructive, outside enemies, has to be addressed! The 1st makes that difficult to impossible! "Incredibly dangerous precedents" can spell defeat. They can allow a dangerous entity to gain strength that can not be overcome ... as in Germany. Are you saying that we can do nothing because we will be setting a dangerous precedent? I agree, free speech should apply to all. Where do you draw the line when free speech is destructive to your country, and there are enough weak minds to listen to it? Throw in the towel? Become what Hitler wanted? A white country? Ruled by a "pure" race? I agree that ANTIFA is WRONG, but NOT their anti-fascist leanings.
I agree, free speech should apply to all. Where do you draw the line when free speech is destructive to your country, and there are enough weak minds to listen to it?
I think you are failing to account for the power of the First Amendment to be a force against violence and oppression.
A - So long as people are allowed express themselves freely, they have non-violent options, and are less likely to go Kristallnacht on everybody. The minute people lose the option of saying what they think, their only option is violence. Moreover, it gives them evidence of being repressed and oppressed, which wins converts and allies.
B - When racists and proponents of bigotry and hate (Nazis, the KKK & Co., Black Lives Matter, etc.) have the ability to express their ideas freely, our society gets some significant benefits in the marketplace of ideas. Remember free speech is available to the good guys, too, and there are more of us than them. White supremacists, Black Lives Matter, et al are in the vast minority of Americans.
- 1 - Everybody can hear them spout their illogical foolishness, and then freely discuss how it is incorrect, fallacious, destructive, juvenile, and embarrassing.
- 2 - This opportunity for dialogue actually enables articulate folks to win converts away from the groups who champion identity politics, racism, bigotry and hate. Face it, equality, tolerance, and kindness are MUCH more attractive ways to think and live.
- 3 - This draws attention to mainstream American values, giving us the opportunity to reevaluate where we are as a nation, discuss changes we should make, and why divisiveness and identity politics are so destructive to our society.
I think you are failing to account for the power of the First Amendment to be a force against violence and oppression.
Violence and oppression weren't the issues raised in the passage you quoted. The issue raised was the danger of people being charmed by destructive rhetoric, as has happened in many other countries.
Well look at Crazy AL wanting the government to adjust the 1st ! What is next in the Bill of Rights that you Regressives want adjusted ? Big Government is what you want AL go on an admit it you will feel better !
Smashing car windows, terrorising city streets and slandering those who hold different opinions to them is completely unacceptable, doesn't matter if they're called the 'anti-fascist' group, violence and bigotry is not the way to go!
"Federal authorities have been warning state and local officials since early 2016 that leftist extremists known as “antifa” had become increasingly confrontational and dangerous, so much so that the Department of Homeland Security formally classified their activities as “domestic terrorist violence,”"
"by April 2016, authorities believed that “anarchist extremists” were the primary instigators of violence at public rallies against a range of targets."
“ 'These antifa guys were showing up with weapons, shields and bike helmets and just beating the shit out of people. … They’re using Molotov cocktails, they’re starting fires, they’re throwing bombs and smashing windows.' "
"'A whole bunch of them” have been deemed dangerous enough to be placed on U.S. terrorism watch lists.'"
"Some of the antifa activists have gone overseas to train and fight with fellow anarchist organizations"
What you say is true.. I don't have to support ANTIFA..
Look. I'm a Jew. I HATE Nazis.. If some group is attacking them, it FEELS like they're attacking them for me.. I'm not a communist.. I didn't like the Soviet Union.. But, at the end of WW II, when they were kicking the Nazis ass's, THEY were my friends, and they were killing Nazis in MY name..
The Soviets loved their pogroms. They didn't fight Nazis for love of Jews, they fought Nazis for self-defense. The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend.
Before mushroom hunting and gymnastics took over, Pogroms were the Russian/Soviet national sport.
My Grandmother grew up in the German-speaking farm belt across the juncture of Prussia/Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Russia.
My great granddad was Lutheran, but looked like a Jew because of his big nose and long beard.
One night Russian soldiers broke into the house, broke dishes and furniture, beat my granddad some, and hauled him off. He was gone for three days, and the family thought he was dead. When he got home, he was very severely beaten. The only reason he ever came home was he was ultimately able to convince them he was not Jewish.
It just goes to show that Jews have not cornered the market on being victims of anti-Semitism.
It also shows that using violence against some chosen enemy (justified or not) can have unintended victims because violence does not discriminate once violent people get started.
Neither one. I expect you to support Americans, seeing that 99.99% of Americans aren't of either group. ANTIFA had one single encounter with white supremacists. Their other violent encounters have been with every other group, including innocent peole, minorities and even Muslims. Were the buildings they burned and looted White Supremacists? Were the black people they've attacked white supremacists? Are little old ladies white supremacists? Was Starbucks white supremacists? Are random cars that they set on fire white supremacists?
ANTIFA had one single encounter with white supremacists.
Hello bront:
Nahhh.. ANTIFA is facing off against white supremacists ALL over the country.. Oh, they might not make the evening news, but ANTIFA is ON the front lines against Nazis, white supremacists and the KKK WHEREVER they encounter them, and I'm SOOO glad they are..
1)You avoided the buildings, looting, and attacks on non white people like the plague.
2)When do they plan on going after the Muslim Brotherhood in Chicago and after the Black Panthers?
3)They are facing down all 1,000 members of the KKK nationwide? Golly gee... I'm so happy. The KKK were burning down buildings, setting cars on fire, and attacking everyone. Oh... wait.
