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All Evidence clearly indicates that the Jesus story is Allegorical Fiction
I have studied the "Christian Myth" in great detail and all of the evidence clearly shows the whole story was created and enhanced over time by numerous anonymous Hebrew authors. I have yet to have a Christian that could offer any evidence to the contrary. I would like to hear from anyone who believes there was a Jesus, why they believe it's true other than just because their social group told them it's true.
And God said; Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.
Why does the so called God refer to himself in the plural ? In chapter after chapter of the bible ( pick one, there are six versions ) one paragraph after another weaves a fake story to cover up what they wrote before. God destroyed the earth with a flood because everyone in the entire world was bad except for Noah and his family ? Well then why are we still here ? Are you saying we are not as evil yet as they were then ?
God saved the Hebrews from slavery, yet didnt bother with any other race of people who have been and some who still are in slavery. Even Science fiction is written better then that.....
There are, last I heard, 200 versions claiming to be the Bible. Either they are all lying or there is one book which is the Bible. In English, the only book that qualifies as the word of God is the King James Bible. All versions are fake, God kept His word and He does not allow it to be changed. Now you can go off attacking and trying to tear down the King James Bible all you want......but saying other versions are the Bible is a self defeating assertion...they are all lies or one is true.
Why does God refer to Himself in the plural? Are you serious? You never heard of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost? God said "let us make man in our image" because He is love, He has always been loving, The Father always loved the Son and Spirit always loved the Son and Father, the Son always loved the Father and Spirit, these three are One, the LORD our God is one Lord. God was always complete in Himself in eternity past before He created anything, He never had need of company, He gave life to beings able to communicate and reason like Himself because He is good, He was reluctant to do it in eternity past because He didn't need to and He knew the suffering that would be caused by those He gave free will to who decided to go against Him.
Yes God destroyed the Earth by flood because the whole Earth was full of violence and the imaginations of their hearts were evil continually. If you keep going in your pride the way you are going, God is going to destroy you too. God has the right to execute you at any moment and be sure He soon will if you will not quit going against Him. And for the rest of the world, the next time He judges the world it is going to be by fire. I don't know if that means nuclear war, but the Bible sure seems to be describing nuclear war in the last days of the Earth.
You are as evil as they were in Noah's day, that's for sure. God does not want you to burn in Hell, He wants you to live or you would be in Hell now. You're really asking for it, you know? God is going to give it to you if you keep asking for it, you sure want it.
God chose the Jews to make Himself known in the Earth. They were not worthy, still are not worthy, yet He promised them certain things and to prove the goodness of Himself and His own name He will bring those promises to fulfillment, Jesus Christ born as a Jew
fulfilling God's promise that in Abraham all the families of the Earth are blessed will rule the world from Mt. Zion in person, put an end to all wars and end all corruptions of government.
Why do you want to be on the losing side? What do you think you are winning by fighting against God? Can't you look around you and see everything is falling into place exactly like the Bible said it would in the last days before God judges the world by fire?
The bigger question I would ask is why would an all knowing God make something that displeased him? Assuming God is all knowing and powerful why would God go through all of the trouble to flood the earth killing all of the little kittens and puppies and innocent babies, ect. If God really existed as described he could have just wiped out mankind or just the evil ones. It becomes clear that MAN CREATED GOD IN HIS IMAGE cruel, jealous, and no more intelligent than the humans that created it. There are no writings directly from this God of Abraham that is why there are many derivatives of religion based on this God. A real god like the one described in the texts would never allow his word to become so altered that no one could determine the truth, as it has been for thousands of years. All of the other religious believers like you believe that they are following the ONE TRUE WORD OF GOD. Since that word is different almost everyone will be wrong.
Let face it unless the god of Abraham is a total screw up that god doesn't exist. let's just take a quick look at the screw ups, Satan, Adam and Eve, mankind in general before Noah, Noah, all of the people who inhabited the promised land that were not Jews. Most the the current population, who are not worshipping the correct god in the correct way. I guess if you throw out reason and logic god is good, loving and perfect, LOL
It is clear that you do not understand how us that live in the real world understand life. We don't live in your little made up reality where people are immortal. ALL of the evidence concerning this subject points to certain realities.
1 Human life requires a sperm and an egg to combine only then does life happen
2 As humans we develop as time progresses we become individual by our experiences in the world we live in
3 We must take care of our bodies in order to remain living.
4 Our brain is part of our body, It is the part that makes us human, it is the part that makes us who we are.
5 If our brain get damaged it can alter who we are (our personality is dependent upon our brain) there is no other magical part independent of our brain
6 When our brain dies, everything that is stored there dies, this means that all that we had become through our life is gone.
There is no magical storage area that saves this and sends it somewhere else. There is no magical body snatcher that saves our flesh to be ripped off in Hell. These are all imaginary ideas which the stronger minded people of the ancient times used to control the weaker minded people. It still goes on today sadly enough.
If you wish to offer any serious scientific evidence to the contrary I am all ears. I am a critical thinker I have not closed my mind to evidence. To date all of the evidence is contrary to your belief. You believe in things on faith that what you have been told is true without evidence. I have seen many people die and I can assure you that there is nothing magical happening whether they are Christian, Jewish, atheist, Hindu death is the same thing for all.
Bob, can you prove that you are not real, and what you experience as interaction with reality ends in death so you are exonerated of your immoralities? Can you prove life is not supernatural, or must you ascribe supernatural powers to matter so that for no reason it accidentally gives rise to life, and with no intention, no reasoning, no purpose it accidentally causes consciousness to exist? Why do you believe that you get out of reality in death, and if you don't like the pain and suffering in the world, what are you waiting for? Why not just take yourself and all the people you care about on a long private charted jet flight and gas the whole bunch all at once for a peaceful departure from pain and suffering? Ease all of their pain and suffering now, Bib, isn't that what you think God should do?
I find it interesting that you can not offer any contradiction to my assessment of life and death in the real world but try to insert me into your imaginary world. If your world were the reality then your god would have power in that world. It is clear that your god has no power in this world. I can curse your god without any repercussion I could taunt and belittle your weak pathetic god and it has no power over me. Do you know why that is? It is because gods are imaginary in the real world that is why they are deemed supernatural. Gods can only harm those who allow their imagination to control them.
As for your comments of pain and suffering in life. It is part of life and the key is to not let the pain and suffering overtake the joy and happiness of life. Only people who believe that there is something better in death would have a mind set involving a murder/suicide. This would include the very religious and the terminally or mentally ill. I don't fit in any of those categories.
The only thing you find interesting, really, Bib, is the idea of getting out of reality in death. That is what you are all about, it is your hope in futility, your hope in hopelessness, your hope in meaninglessness, your hope in nothing. You're a hopeless fool, Bib....I have bad news for you, you're not getting out of reality in death. I also have good news that you can have eternal life, but you want death so enjoy, Bib. Smile.
How you understand life? You tell me that lifeless and mindless matter for no good reason, no purpose, no intention, no love, somehow by accident causes life and consciousness and love to happen? And you are going to put yourself on a pedestal over me telling me of your understanding of life? All you have is dying, Bib, you're on death row with no way out as you deny the only hope being God the Savior....and you are going to tell me about your understanding of life? Life is not even real to you, Bib, you think you are not really you but only an apparition, some kind of robotic hologram caused by chemical fizzes in your brain....please Bib, keep your dying to yourself and don't try to explain life to me. You believe in nothing hoping to get out of reality in death so you are now and forever exonerated of your crimes, your wrongs, your iniquities, your unrighteousness, your immoralities. You're insane, Bib, I'm not interested in your understanding of life, it's all dying for you Bib, and that is not life. Keep it for yourself if you want to, you will be dying forever in Hell by your own desire.
You're not asking questions, Bib, you are making accusations because you hate God...after you spend all this time trying to trash God, you tell me you don't hate Him? You love death, bib, you think it gets you our of reality, proving you are not real but are only a natural illusion caused by chemical fizzes in your brain. You're insane, Bib, go on and see if death exonerates you...oh yeah, I don't have to tell you that, it's what you are doing. I would say good luck with that but I don't believe in luck...do you believe in luck, Bib? Do you feel lucky to be here in this world of pain and suffering, dying as you are Bib, unable to justify living?
Why is God going to kill you, Bib? Why does God not kill you now, Bib? Why did God allow people to live before the flood at all, Bib? What do you think makes you better than the people who were killed in the flood?
The next time the world is judged it is going to be by fire. Why should God not at this moment allow all the fire in Heaven and Earth to be unleashed on you to dry you up so that your flesh is dissolved before you fall to the ground?
You're a presumptuous fool, Bib, your time is short and you have an appointment.
You're not asking honest questions, you are making accusations, accusing God of not being good. You're a closed minded fool asking the wrong questions assuming you have the answer and you will accept no reasonable answer. Your questions are rhetorical and your mind is closed. You're a lost cause, Bib, go on and prove you are not real.
All that drivel bored me out of me noggin and knackered me to the point I felt like buggering off to Bedfordshire and having a wank.
And not one word of it provided us chaps with any evidence for Jesus having really existed, as the OP challenged.
In other words, mate, you just spent a half hour typing bloody bollocks that doesn't help your case one bloody pence.
Pity that, mate.
Cheers.
PS...A bloke who called himself Jesus may have existed back then but he was referred to only very very fleetingly and trivially by any secular sources. Thereby when all the chips are tallied it appears certain he was just a man who toddled about preaching and stirred up some shite inciting the rabble till the Romans dropped the bloody hammer on his skinny Palestinian arse.
LOl.
Cheers, mate. Wouldja fancy a pint of Guinness? I nicked a case from me pub last night when I was pissed.
Do you find it difficult to avoid reading my posts? I have no trouble keeping my eyes off of your words....saw way more of your stuff than I would have allowed myself if I knew at the start how dirty you are.
I actually believe that a MAN named Jesus existed. "Apparently" a charismatic man with courage and an agenda. That said, I don't believe in the "virgin birth", the Nativity story has been soundly debunked, (Created to "explain the "birth" of Jesus" centuries later by St. Francis of Assisi). I don't believe the "Son of God" stuff, the "miracles", the "risen". (IMO), they are highly imaginative, compiled by a people not far removed from other "gods" used to explain happenings. I'll agree that MOST of the "story" is the result of rumor that is not only passed from person to person but, from century to century. That IS MY belief, you are welcome to yours.
Yes , this is what people keep missing when Historians talk of Jesus they are talking of wandering rabbi who was just another man they are not concerned with a so called miracle worker because most don't believe in such nonsense .
Since the only references to this character Jesus Christ begin decades after his supposed existence. They are all part of a religious NOT historical set of writings they are suspect as historically accurate.
1st- There were historians writing about the events which happened in their lifetime. 43 notable authors of the time in the same area as Christ would have been. None made mention of any of the supposed events surrounding this hugely popular yet controversial figure in history. The extraordinary events mentioned in the Biblical texts were not mentioned historically. There is a void which one bit of evidence would eliminate yet there is nothing
Then there is the style of writing used in these religious texts it is not the typical historical factual this is what happened style. It is the once upon a time there was a virgin her name was Mary kind of story telling. I have great examples but they are very lengthy and too long to post them here. If you truly would like them I would be more than happy to sent them to you. just shoot me an email [email protected] I actually have a 76 page paper that outlines my version of why I believe there was no actual Christ.
People who think this way are retarded and/or uneducated. The evidence is easy to find. You have to be willfully ignorant to actually agree with the silliness of the OP here...I find it hard to believe anybody really is that ignorant, I think they just want to make excuses for their sin.
You always tell everyone how stupid they are when they don't agree with you yet you never have anything intelligent to add to the conversation. All critical thinking historians and archaeologists dismiss Jesus as a living entity. There is NO supporting evidence. There were many historians of the time 43 famous ones who never wrote a word to support the events of the Jesus story. There are no self written documents from this Character in history. There are no artifacts from this character in history. The only thing we find are allegorical fiction written by unknown authors long after the supposed life of this mythical character.
Since you claim that I am retarded or uneducated I challenge you to provide any compelling evidence to support the claim that Jesus was real!!!
MY PREDICTION IS THAT YOU ARE NOT EVEN INTELLIGENT ENOUGH TO TRY!!!
You are either just plain stupid, Bib, or you are a liar. I really think it's a combination of both, I really think you have succeeded in convincing yourself to believe lies....and that is just plain stupid, so you become a sincere liar willingly ignorant of history and spouting such stupid lies as "All critical thinking historians and archaeologists dismiss Jesus as a living entity." That's like saying "All critical thinking scientists believe in the big bang and evolution". You're really not very bright if you believe things like that.
Less than three years ago when I was taking some college classes at the local community college which strongly promotes evolution (pseudo science in biology classes, I took three biology classes, Bib, learning about all the silly education stunting assertions of evolution) and while helping another student with their Western Civ class I saw the modern take of atheistic/evolutionary historians....again, Bib, they are atheists and evolutionists like you.....and they never tried to present anything so stupid as to say Jesus did not exist. The modern take or serious atheistic historians (unlike the clowns you refer to as "critical thinking" who are not really historians at all as they go against the mainstream of atheistic historians off the deep end into "Jesus is nothing but a myth from beginning to end")....the modern take is that Jesus was a popular teacher and that Roman Catholicism is Christianity established by Constantine after his fake conversion to Christianity, trying to consolidate his crumbling empire by ending the persecution of Christians if they would agree to join and submit to his church. Real Christians refused to submit to Catholicism and their persecution continued.
Your "myther" stuff is so stupid it's not worth dignifying by reading it. Anybody who gets into that garbage is just plain desperate to believe they are exonerated in death and have the right to exist outside of Hell....just fools, Bib....like you.
You are willfully ignorant, Bib....you might as well be retarded, you would be better off being retarded as your learning would be stunted. Being willfully ignorant you become progressively stupid as you try harder and harder to convince yourself that lies are truth, death is good, you are not real, death exonerates you and gets you out of reality so all of your immoralities are excused by your self-justifying religion of dying, thinking your right to exist outside of Hell is established by your unreal existence as an apparition, some kind of hologram of consciousness caused by chemical fizzes which appear to make you real when in reality you believe you are not really there.
You're insane is what you really are, Bib....not retarded, not stupid, just plain insane. Tell your friend death "hello", Bib. God loves you, but you hate Him and love death, and hate me for telling you the truth.
I think you are either Slap Shot or Bohemium......you guys are all the same...and maybe Demon Hunter....you're a phony, Bib, can't even prove you are real.....no wonder you want to believe Jesus is not real, you hope you are not real so you are exonerated in death......just a fool, Bob.......you're insane, and a fool, not retarded and not stupid...just an insane fool.
Even the atheists here think you are a fool for trying to change history to make Jesus Christ a myth....you're a brainwashed fool, Bib.....you're insane.
Well it is nice to see something other than hateful rhetoric. Thank You! Now for your comment about the big bang and evolution. Dogmatic thinking causes people to believe things which they are told without proof. Evolution is a theory because critical thinking people know that some parts of the theory are not factual. Some aspects of evolution are factual and cannot be disputed. The big bang theory is just that a theory and the critical thinkers of the world think of the other possibilities. All of the evidence in the Jesus story amounts to one collaborative fictional story which has little historical value. The story always falls apart when compared in a critical manner to actual historical evidence. Just as an example "The slaughter of the innocent", The crucifixion of the son of God, The darkness after the crucifixion, the dead rising from their graves, most importantly the large following of Jesus. Should have been recorded historically yet it was not. The God of the entire world offered humanity salvation according to the story yet the offering was only to this small portion of the Roman Empire not the rest of the world (who knew nothing of this story). All of the aspects of Christ were present in demigods who came before him. According to the artifacts of the time there were many religions with demigods like Jesus that were as popular at the time. That is why Jesus had to be similar as to make a conversion easy. That is why Christianity allowed anyone into their religion not like many of the others where you had to be born into the religion. Once Constantine made Christianity the state religion they began to eliminate the others that is the ONLY reason for it's success. You are welcome to believe whatever you are told but if you research the History of Christ critically you will find that there is NO EVIDENCE to support the claim.
You're fooling yourself, Bib, you are the hater always trying to make everybody else look as bad as you. Your insanity really is not worth reading, I went through it enough exposing the weakness and insanity of your beliefs, forcing you to question yourself and you failed to answer adequately so you resort to this goofy "nothing but evolution is true" religious mantra trying to convince yourself that death exonerates you. You do know what exoneration is, don't you Bib?
Hey....remember how you told me how you know so much about the Bible, and then made some statements on what the Bible says and I proved by a couple quick Bible references that you are a fraud? Who are you trying to fool, Bib?
You're a bold faced liar, Bib...do us a favor and ban yourself from my debates........and I don't care if you ban me or not, I'm still going to ban you unless I find reason to use you as an example.
I read the last line here......part of it....noticed something showing the point I make about you being closed minded....
"if you research the History of Christ critically".........Bib, critically is not objectively. Your approach is only to justify yourself, only trying to convince yourself that you are exonerated in death and do not need God's mercy. You've fallen for lies, Bib, you cannot justify your life even though I know how important it is to you that everybody believe you are good. Bib, if you're good, why are you falling apart in death? How is that good, Bib?
Why do you hate God so much, Bib? Is it because He won't let you off the hook and end your pain and suffering? What do you want Him to do? Kill you now so you have prove that He can stop your vile speech against Him? First you say He is evil, then you say He is not there because He allows you to live? If He's evil, why doesn't he just kill you now, Bib? Who knows, today could be your last day anyways. You sure take a lot for granted, Bib.
And you are lying when you say how nice you are.....you insult me to no end and I got news for you, Bib....I don't believe you have read one tenth of the books you claim to have read. Call me rude or whatever, doesn't bother me. You are lying when you say you never lost your cool and went off like a rabid devil on me. You're always on the edge of it Bib, because it's so important for you to trash Jesus Christ and you would have to kill me before I stop saying He is God who loves you and died for you to save you from Hell.
I feel the hatred and coldness of your heart, you can't hide it...it comes out when you start going off trashing God trying to tell me why I should hate Him the same as you....you're full of hate, Bib.......sure, you love your family and friends like most people do but much more than that you hate God and you love death, you want death to get you out of reality and you hope in nothing.
I simply find it sad that few Christians can handle a fool like you who seems pretty adept at pulling up rhetoric without understanding from the web........and I find it sad that people will follow you simply because you have a big mouth, the same as you followed others who hate God simply because they have big mouths and they make you feel like you are justified to live and exonerated in death so your immoralities are automatically excused yesterday, today, and forever.
I can tell just by glancing at a few words in this post that it's full of hatred, Bib. You don't fool me, and you fool God less. You can fool most of the people around you.......you sure fool yourself.
Why do you say such stupid things? You're practically incoherent here as you try to say you don't like me. Trying to weave "I don't like you" logically in to a response to my previous post, you sound very confused. Do you enjoy making yourself sound stupid?
What are you talking about??? Why do you enter debates but not have a single talking point that you can support. you just offer hateful meaningless comments. You are like the Westboro Baptist group, ISIS, and the Taliban using religion to spread hated evil.
TO DATE YOU HAVE NEVER OFFERED ANY INTELLIGENT CONVERSATION TO ANY DEBATE THAT I HAVE SEEN. AND YOU CALL OTHERS STUPID, LOL
Sorry Bib, there's no point in trying to reason with you when your head is buried in the sand. Tell me Bib, do you think life is supernatural, or do you think nature is supernatural so that it causes life to and consciousness to appear as if they are supernatural when in reality they are only natural?
Do you think you are not really you, but are only a temporary appearance of you caused by chemical reactions in your brain? That would mean you are not real, Bib, so why should I bother trying to understand or help you? Do you think you are getting out of reality by dying, Bib, so you are exonerated of your immoralities, Bib?.
Do you hate God, Bib, and love believing you have the right to exist, and love believing death exonerates you so you get out of reality, and love believing you have the right to exist outside of Hell, Bib? You love death, don't you Bib? You think it's the ultimate friend believing it exonerates you and gets you out of reality, correct, Bib? You know God says people who hate Him love death, right, Bib? You told me how you know so much of the Bible, Bib, so you know God says that all who hate Him love death, and you do love death, don't you Bib? The destroyer of life is your friend, right Bib? You have made peace with your friend, death, haven't you Bib? Bow down to your friend, Bib, and see is it gets you out of reality....oh, whoops, I don't have to tell you to do that, you are doing it, committing a slow suicide and hating me for telling you the truth.
Being a critical thinker I am the one open to new ways of seeing the evidence. You however are a DOGMATIC thinker you can only see things from one perspective. You have been told that Jesus was real and was (some aspect of God) you accept that as fact on faith. I however took my head out of the sand and said what evidence is there for God, what evidence is there that Christ was real. Just because I don't know the answer to a question I am not willing to ignore my intellect and claim that some supernatural being is the answer. Do I believe that life is a natural occurrence? Yes there was no God involved in my mother and father having sex leading to my existence. Do I believe that life began in simple forms from simple molecules made of chemical elements?, Yes the fossil record indicated this is how our planet has progressed through time. Do I know how life actually began, No. Do I know the progression which led to the existence of mankind?, No Do I believe that there is something supernatural (like an immortal aspect of mankind)?, No There is NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT.
If there is evidence to support a theory I give support to that idea. So offer some evidence for the existence of Christ and I would give support to the idea. I don't hate gods that would be futile. That is like me asking you, "Do you hate Leprechauns because they never gave you a pot of gold" If gods existed as they are written about I would be compelled to believe since they would be real. Since gods only exist in the minds of people who are told to believe in that particular god or gods by the specific peer group. It is clear to a critical thinker that you must follow the evidence which always leads to the conclusion that no gods exist.
You're fooling yourself, Bib, you are real and you are not being exonerated in death. Face the facts, Bib....you didn't ask to be in reality and killing yourself with atheism won't get you out of it.
So you admit you believe you are not really you and you do not really exist...the chemicals in your body exist, but you are only an illusion caused by the fizzing of your brain...you're insane, Bib......no point in trying to get an avowed fool to be reasonable.
Don't be showing your temper, Bib, it contradicts your claim of being good.
I don't hate you, Bib, I don't hate anybody. I hate lies, and you are making yourself into the thing you believe, dead, and that's all you are, Bid...a dead man walking and I'm not supposed to hate what you are doing? You feel like I hate you because you hate God, Bib. It's your own hatred which you are trying to project onto me. God loves you Bib.
Atheism is a lie which always leads to murder, killing the Christians as you feel you are killing God by making yourself into your own little dying god and denying God is there.
Atheism is murder....it's suicide and when it's unleashed it kills everybody it can kill and it makes Jesus Christ and Christians into it's worst enemies. You're on your way to Hell, Bib....I feel sorry for you and I won't compromise in speaking the truth just because you feel hated. You are the hater, Bib....from start to finish. This is why I don't read your stuff anymore, I exposed your true hateful colors and you just try to drag me down into your wallowing in your mud which is drying up fast, Bib.
This is why I don't read your stuff anymore, I exposed your true hateful colors and you just try to drag me down into your wallowing in your mud which is drying up fast,
So, you mean that our side is much more reasonable and reading it will cause you to change your mind, thus landing you in hell?
Our side? You mean the side that loves death and hates God? You have a team against God? Do you really feel like you are winning when you are getting nothing but death?
It is funny how you start off with a claim that there is no hate and you follow up with Atheists are evil murderers not worthy of empathy and should rot in Hell for eternity.
The reality of our lives is this, I live life and enjoy each day without judging others against some ancient text. I can love Christians as many of my friends and family fear mortality and cling to the hope of eternal existence. I can accept the fact that they feel better not having to face mortality. I am not hateful at all, as a matter of fact I have won awards at work (In a nursing home / hospital) for being a generous friendly kind and loving person. They have posters of me in the hallways.
You can believe what you want to but it doesn't make it true.
Hey Bib, remember how you blew your top in frustration being unable to answer my questions about reality, expecting me to go along with you in your assertion that life has no real purpose, meaning, or value because you insist it all happened without reason?
You were trying to tell me what a good person you are, then you exploded when I pointed out that you are a corpse rotting in death so if you think that's good you are insane.
What are you yelling at me for, Bib? Do you think yelling at me proves you have the right to exist outside of Hell? I don't hate you Bib, I'm just mocking you because your beliefs are a pitiful joke and you insist on trying to exonerate yourself in death in your religion of Naturalism. You might want to google "religion of Naturalism", and try to understand what you really believe. You know what, Bib? I understand your beliefs better than you do. You are trying to fool yourself, I am being realistic. You're on your way to Hell, Bib. Don't expect me to waste time reading your posts.
I have never been too frustrated to answer you! I have always been the calm one in our discussions.. You are the one who never offers anything substantial to the conversation normally just hateful rhetoric like now, LOL
If I am wrong offer me evidence of the existence of Christ
You're a liar, Bob...........I was reading some of it from the past to refresh my memory of you....you completely fell apart more than once, you blew your stack in frustration practically putting your fist through your computer, could feel your anger and hatred and see it in your words.....and I'm sure you are on the edge of doing it again, and I don't really care to see it again. Sorry, Bib, your a fraud, trying to tell me what a good person you are. You're rotting, Bib, rotten from sin in your blood, body, and bones, just a dead man walking and Jesus said let the dead bury their dead. I'm not going to let you pull me into your wallowing in your mud trying to prove death exonerates you.
Your mind is open to all evidence.........HAHAHHAAHAHAHA, yeah, right...you are one of the hardest headed brick walls I have encountered......you are one of the most closed minded people I have seen here.....
You have set up a mental block wall in your mind behind which you think God can't see you, and on the other side of that wall is the part of your brain you shut down when you decided you have nothing to learn about God. You're a closed minded fool, Bib.
Your wall is crumbling in death, Bib, you can't keep God from seeing you, you can only try to run and hide and the way you are going you will prefer to be in the fire of Hell over to be with the One you hate.
I wonder how long it will be before you run out of steam and disappear again, and I wonder who will pop up in your place...Slap Shot? Demon Hunter? Bohemium?
I lead a very busy life in the fair weather time of year. I play a lot of golf and have family get togethers on many of the weekends. So I have little time to debate. Now that it is cold and crappy outside I spend more time inside and have some time for debate. I have no other identities here. What reason would I have to be someone else. I enjoy religious and political discussion. I enjoy our discussions even though most of the time you are hateful and rude, once in a while you actually join the debate.
As for your previous comments I have been blocked on your debates for years, LOL
That is of no consequence to me, and you claiming that I get mad about debate that is just funny since I debate for enjoyment and relaxation rather than watching TV. You can say what you want but it doesn't make it so. I will never block you as I am not rude or hateful.
I'm not interested, Bib. Atheism is nothing but an insult, first to God by denying He is the originator of beauty and all good things you enjoy, second it is an insult to yourself by degrading yourself into nothing more than an animal which is supposably exonerated in death so any form of immorality is deemed irrelevent, and third to all people who for good reason believe God is the Living God who loves them....not defending false beliefs like Catholicism, Islam, Judaism and beliefs which change the definition of God to imply an impersonal and uncaring force is god and God is not God.....but you do nothing but insult in all three of those points.
You are willfully ignorant and extremely closed minded, and I do not understand why yu feel it is so important for you to try to deny others from knowing God. The fact that you insist you cannot know God, the fact that you insist Jesus is not God and God is not there, only proves that you do not know God, and you are succeeding in keeping yourself separated from Him in your pride.
I think you are a lost cause. You want to believe you are exonerated in death and have the right to exist outside of Hell, so go on and try to prove it, Bib. Go on and try to prove you are not real and life is not supernatural, and you are only an apparition caused by chemical fizzes which will cease...go on and try to prove you are not really you, Bib. Go on and prove you are not supernatural. Go on and prove you are nothing but a pile of wet dust with chemical fizzes and you will not exist in death. Your in death now, Bib, you're as good as dead and for some strange reason you feel it's important for you to promote your hopeless religion. Why don't you go tell the people at the nursing home that life has no real purpose, value, or meaning and they are not really people but they are just apparitions caused by chemical fizzes and it's good they can die hoping to get out of reality and never know pain and suffering again.
You're not getting out of reality, Bib, what makes you think you deserve to get off Scott free in death? You're insane, Bib. Go on and see for yourself if you are getting out of reality in death. I think you are a lost cause and again, I don't believe anything you say anymore after you tried to tell me how much you know about the Bible and I proved you a total fraud with only a few quick chapter and verse references off the top of my head.
Atheism is the default position and if your god were real and intelligent could not be insulted by atheism. A baby is an atheist until other humans convince that individual that there is some magical being that they need to worship. If the peer group is Hindu the child believes in those gods, If the peer group is Muslim, Jewish, or Christian they believe in the god of Abraham, but there are many different disciplines that stem from that god. The point is that there is no one central god causing people to believe. That is why there are thousands of different religious disciplines, hundreds in Christianity alone. If a god really existed outside of the imagination of the owner of that god there would only be one religion. What would be insulting to a god would be to worship another god as gods are very jealous I understand by the texts which describe them, LOL You are a perfect example of this, you deny everyone else's god yet expect them to accept yours. WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THAT YOUR GOD AND DISCIPLINE ARE MORE CORRECT THAN EVERYONE ELSE WHO BELIEVES DIFFERENTLY???
It's because that is what your peer group has convinced you is correct
You make the claim that there is something supernatural in mankind. Where is it in a person. If you fail to consume the minerals your brain needs for the electrical activity you will suffer brain damage or death. I have a friend who is not the same person he was due to brain damage. His personality and all that he is was stored in his brain not some magical immortal part. He is a different person now because there is no immortal part of a person. Yes we are the product of chemical and electrical processes. There have been countless research project to find evidence of this immortal soul. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THIS IDEA.
Oh hogwash, Bib. Atheism is a choice, it's a decision you made one day to close off your brain.
I clearly remember as a baby before I could talk witnessing evil behavior and screaming out loud, knowing God was with me and I did not have to fear anything that might happen to me due to my protest of what I saw happening.
If you do not clearly remember being a baby and saying to yourself "there is no God", you cannot claim that you were born as an atheist.
You fool atheists have this stupid list of about 2 dozen talking points which in your mind fill the space on your side of the wall you have built which you feel keeps God from seeing you. On the other side of that wall, half of your brain has been shut off as you think you know more than God and therefore you can let the learning part of your brain sleep.
I wont' read more than two or three words of your post...you're a lost cause, Bib...but why in the world do you feel it is so important for you to trash God? Why don't you attack Judaism or Islam? Why is it that you hate Christianity so much? What happened to you to make you so angry at God that you put up a mental block wall trying to keep Him out of your life and started you hoping in death to relieve you of reality?
Why do you want death to get you out of reality, Bib? Do you hate yourself that much? Do you wish you were God so you could make yourself live without pain and suffering? What are you crying about Bib? Why are you using caps? It won't make me read you, just because you are throwing a temper tantrum.
Really, Bib? You remember the doctor spanking you to make you cry when you were born, and you told the doctor "OUCH YOU BASTARD!!! Why didn't you just have me aborted instead of putting pain and suffering on me? There is no God or He would kill you for causing me pain and suffering and nobody would hurt me ever!!!!!!
Did you remember being that stupid as a baby, or did you become that stupid later in life when you decided you are better than God and declared He is not there?
You can't even say for sure that you are there, Bib, you think you are not really you but are only a manifestation caused by chemical fizzes and somehow those fizzes make you hate God. How can you say God is not real when you don't even know if you are real? If you get your wish of escaping reality in death, then you are not real after death the same as you are not real now, Bib. Have you ever thought about how insane you really are, Bib?
I get a kick out of you, Bib....I know all the atheist mantra rhetoric you love so much, I can pick you apart without even reading your long attempts to declare yourself exonerated in death and justified to live.
If you are justified to live, why are you dying? If you have the right to exist outside of Hell, why can't you stop yourself from dying? You're a fool, Bib.
You insult God, you insult me, you insult everybody of any faith who believes God is God.
The think you call god is a thing you can imagine, which would be finite and not eternal and not God. God cannot be imagined, He gives you the power of imagination. Anything you refer to as god which is not eternal and cannot be imagined is not God. That's why you fool atheist seem to be possessed by a demon which forces you to ignore God and create a straw man which is not God, but a god you can insist is not God. It's really stupid, Bib. All you are doing is showing that you hate God. Atheism is nothing but an insult, it's murderous at heart, you hate me, you hate God, and you hate the Bible and you hate real Christians who like Jesus Christ will tell you that you, as a sinner, are of your father the devil and are a child of Hell.
You say you have Christian friends, I don't believe you. I don't believe they are real Christians according to what the Bible says God does to make a sinner into a child of God. You don't have a clue, Bib. You've shut off half of your brain, not using the part that learns as you have decided literally that you are better, smarter, and stronger than God.
Atheism is dumb, it's nothing but an insult, it's hateful, and it fraudulently excuses all kinds of immorality.
You want evidence? Look in the mirror and tell me if you are living or dying. Say you are living and not dying and I say you are a liar and you will not accept evidence, you will not believe Hell is real except by finding yourself unable to escape from it's fire and that's they way you want it in your reality which you want God to show nothing of His goodness.
You're a closed minded fool, Bib, you're a crack pot in every field of learning you refer to. Everything you insist there is no evidence for you can easily find evidence if you want to, but you are a closed minded fool trying to convince everybody that you are better and smarter than God. Sorry, Bib, I can't bow to you.
I think it's very likely that there was a Jesus, just like there was a Saul and St Paul (although whether they are in fact the same man is up for debate).
However, all the supernatural elements of the story such as Jesus' miracles and crap like that is complete fiction and are simply metaphors.
If there was a Jesus, my assumption would be that he was a man claiming to be the son of God who amassed followers whom genuinely believed him. Then, the Romans crucified the fuck out of him and that was the end of that.
The one thing which stands out to me, however, is the fact that there are practically no records from that time (other than the Bible of course) which actually point to the existence of Jesus. Not sure if what can really explain this.
Oh, and he was also probably black. I know how much this idea pisses off Christians, lol.
"Then, the Romans crucified the fuck out of him and that was the end of that."
That was the end? Look how far christianity has come and still survives on top of all others.
"However, all the supernatural elements of the story such as Jesus' miracles and crap like that is complete fiction and are simply metaphors."
You might have had a point if jesus didn't die the way as we know it or by your own admittance; he was killed by the romans.
But here is the case, jesus died yet resurrected.
Which is a substantive prove jesus possesed some miraculous powers.
Now let me back it up.
First, you agree he died by the hands of the romans.
The romans hated him and couldn't have connived with him to fake his death.
That would have made him even more famous(as he is now) than before; when the main reason for the hate was "his fame"(king of the jews) and they wanted to suppress that. got it?
Plus, when he was buried, the romans were suspicious of his resurrection claims while he was alive, so they sent soldiers to guard his tomb day and night , just to make sure his disciples didn't secretly go to steal his body to make any false claims of his resurrection.
Again, Saul was the number one man tormentor of christians at that time.
And there was no way he could have converted unless, he actually encountered jesus(resurrected~supernatural).
And paul did not only say that merely by words, but he devoted his life to christianity even to the point of death. And there are so many writings by him. He(the late comer) even did miracles(supernatural), how much more jesus.
And you would be the most stupid being on earth to ever suggest jesus and paul were the same.
Considering the fact that, saul had some christians killed. He had a high place among the powerful councils Who were against jesus(you mean against himself).
Mary never related to him nor joseph.
He has nothing to with david's blood line.
Etc
You would be the biggest idiot ever to suggest such nonsense.
That was the end? Look how far christianity has come and still survives on top of all others.
I was talking literally, as in Jesus literally dying.
But here is the case, jesus died yet resurrected.
No he didn't. Men do not resurrect themselves. We are speaking literally here, not in terms of the Bible's hocus pocus. So, if we assume for sake of this debate that Jesus was just a normal man, no, he did not resurrect.
First, you agree he died by the hands of the romans.
The romans hated him and couldn't have connived with him to fake his death.
That would have made him even more famous(as he is now) than before; when the main reason for the hate was "his fame"(king of the jews) and they wanted to suppress that. got it?
Yes, the Romans hated him because he was claiming to be the son of God and was amassing followers. Therefore, the Romans had him killed, perhaps in fear of rebellion.
And there was no way he could have converted unless, he actually encountered jesus(resurrected~supernatural).
Ugh. You're not listening to me.
Saul had a religious experience of Jesus, he did not actually meet him in person.
But, there is absolutely no evidence that Saul and Paul are the same person other than the word of the Bible (which is an unreliable source).
And you would be the most stupid being on earth to ever suggest jesus and paul were the same.
I never said that. Are you illiterate?
Your reply is absolutely pointless and irrelevant. My post was talking about Jesus, the man, not Jesus the miracle-doing self-resurrecting myth. Considering grounded reality, it is obvious that Paul's and Jesus' miracles were simply fictional tales created throughout time, leading up to their recording in the Bible. They did not perform miracles.
"I was talking literally, as in Jesus literally dying."
Literally or metaphorically, it didn't end there.
"Men do not resurrect themselves. "
But jesus did, literally, or paul's writings wouldn't have been part of the bible by now.
You can have an argument if you can go back on your words that "He was killed by the romans".
And i have a counter waiting
"So, if we assume for sake of this debate "
Who are you assuming with because i am not.
I refuse to.
And this debate did not suggest any assumptions.
You are trying to maneuver your personal feelings as a standard which is not accepted by all(generally). So it couldn't be for the debate's sake but yours.
"Jesus was just a normal man, no, he did not resurrect."
So you are wrong then...since saul's conversion proves otherwise, plus your assumption is not a generally accepted standard.
It's too late to be seconded.
"Therefore, the Romans had him killed, "
Do you still stand by that.(i totally agree though)
"Saul had a religious experience of Jesus, he did not actually meet him in person."
You are sick then, you don't know anything about paul.
What religious experience?
He even tormented christians with his soldiers even when christ died and when there were claims he had
resurrected.
So when was the experience? With his corpse(secretly in his tomb)?
"But, there is absolutely no evidence that Saul and Paul "
This is where you don't make sense.
The whole story and it events were documented by witnesses(disciples) including S/Paul himself.
Which was later collected, combined and named bible(the new testament).
So where else do you want to find proof which you will call authentic other than that of the original writers or witnesses.....including that of the man in question himself.
Who else did you expect to write for christians(though there are and are non christians~no one asked them to) apart from members of the religion themselves.
It 'might' have been a sensible argument but then it's baseless.
"My post was talking about Jesus, the man, not Jesus the miracle-doing self-resurrecting myth. "
Mythologically or literally as a man, jesus did do miracles. Not fiction boy!
Take it or leave. You can choose to believe it how you want it but don't tell us how to want it too.
my side:JESUS AS A MAN, LITERALLY DID MIRACLES. Which i continue to witness.
"They did not perform miracles"
Mind blowing right? Take it or leave.
And even, those sources which are not christian but of people who existed during the time of christ did write, christ was also accused of deceiving the multitude with sorcery.
You are trying to maneuver your personal feelings as a standard which is not accepted by all(generally). So it couldn't be for the debate's sake but yours.
It's not personal feelings. It's being logical and arguing from a realistic standpoint.
So you are wrong then...since saul's conversion proves otherwise, plus your assumption is not a generally accepted standard.
Who are you?” Saul asked. “I am Jesus,” the LORD answered. “I am the one you are so cruel to. Now get up and go into the city, where you will be told what to do.” The men with Saul stood there speechless. They had heard the voice, but they had not seen anyone.
Saul did not have a literal, physical encounter with Jesus. It was a religious experience - a vision.
Mythologically or literally as a man, jesus did do miracles.
No, he didn't. Miracles are impossible.
christ was also accused of deceiving the multitude with sorcery.
Women were also accused of witchcraft for floating in water. Yes, people reported that he was performing miracles, but considering the stupidity of the general population back in those times, it's really not a stretch to say that they mistook tricks for genuine magic.
Also consider the fact that this is a time in which news was passed along through word of mouth. It's essentially Chinese whispers on a huge scale; people blow the stories out of proportion, they exaggerate, they lie for their own gain.
I can't believe it took you 700yrs to reply(As in, you actually wanted to reply). How old are your grand children?
Because you're being ignorant.
Poor foundation.
It's not personal feelings. It's being logical and arguing from a realistic standpoint.
Realistic stand point....according to who? Oh it's you again....yeah right....indeed.
They had heard the voice, but they had not seen anyone.
So were you the one talking to saul?
Were you the one who blinded him?
Were you the one told Ananias to go pray for him so he regains his sight?
Saul did not have a literal, physical encounter with Jesus. It was a religious experience - a vision.
A vision? I thought you said he couldn't see, neither did you mention he was asleep.
No, he didn't. Miracles are impossible.
You are at the wrong side of the world.
Women were also accused of witchcraft for floating in water.
Where?
Yes, people reported that he was performing miracles, but considering the stupidity of the general population back in those times,
Josephus and all other renouned non christian writers who wrote about him were stupid?
When you used to be blind and you can now see, is it a trick?
A man was healed and was sent before the elders and his parents were also called to confirm their child was really blind.
It says Solomon was given wisdom by God, which of your family members is wiser than solomon?
Is that a trick?
And jesus did not denounce his tricks even till death?
And paul who never knew him suddenly mastered the tricks after he died? Ananias?etc.
it's really not a stretch to say that they mistook tricks for genuine magic.
I think a trickster in those days should have been seeking to make profit not talking about what God likes and don't. Why would john the baptist endorse him, why would he send people to a trickster while in prison and seriously needed to be rescued.
Also consider the fact that this is a time in which news was passed along through word of mouth. It's essentially Chinese whispers on a huge scale; people blow the stories out of proportion, they exaggerate, they lie for their own gain.
This is a very healthy sign of ignorance. Are you saying the bible was written on hear say? Do you even know how the factual bible story was collected?
I would say this you are making claims from a fictional story that was written in the same manner as The Odyssey by Homer. Yet the stories that you are making references from have many unknown authors. It is interesting that with dogmatic thinking people are told this is historical with no evidence to substantiate it and quote from it as if it were historical.
There were 43 historians who lived around the supposed time of this Jesus yet NONE wrote a word about the supposed events written in the Bible stories. Let's refer to your comments of Saul: what was the time frame that you think that was written? I would like to put certain historical facts out there. 1st until around 90 CE Christians were part of the Jewish faith. The Jews accepted them into their synagogues. This would place the Saul story well after 90CE the beginning parts of Acts were the first Biblical stories written, the true epistles of Saul. These stories do not portray Saul in this manner, Saul as the reformed Christian killer was written many years later by a completely different author. (look it up if you doubt me)
First, you agree he died by the hands of the romans.
The romans hated him and couldn't have connived with him to fake his death.
That would have made him even more famous(as he is now) than before; when the main reason for the hate was "his fame"(king of the jews) and they wanted to suppress that. got it?
That's rather fine, except that" king of Jews " part.
Plus, when he was buried, the romans were suspicious of his resurrection claims while he was alive, so they sent soldiers to guard his tomb day and night , just to make sure his disciples didn't secretly go to steal his body to make any false claims of his resurrection.
, so they sent soldiers to guard his tomb day and night ,
When? I haven't heard of any soldiers guarding his tomb - that simply doesn't fit in.
And they began to call out to him, "Hail, king of the Jews!"
Jews would have killed him either way - it was the intervention of Romans that led to the crucifixion.
So they went and made the tomb secure by putting a seal on the stone and posting the guard.
Nero wasn't jealous of Jesus. Neither did he believe any of the rumours - he, in fact, had a really bad view of them. Why would he post guard on the grave?
Well what do you base your claim on ? Reputable historians and scholars would disagree with your assessment, i do also and I'm an atheist .
When I think of Jesus I do not think of the 'miracle worker ' I think merely of a man who was a travelling rabbi / preacher and just another mere mortal like Muhammad .
You should read the case for Jesus by Historians and scholars ,
Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth is a 2012 book by the academic and author Bart Ehrman, a leading scholar of the New Testament and writer of over twenty-five books (including three college textbooks) in that field of study. In the book, written to counter the idea that there was never such a person as Jesus Christ at all, Ehrman sets out to demonstrate the historical evidence for Jesus' existence, and he aims to state why all experts in the area agree that "whatever else you may think about Jesus, he certainly did exist."[1][2]
Ehrman examines the historicity of Jesus and includes some criticism of Christ mythicists. As he does in other works such as Forged and Jesus, Interrupted, he disregards an apologetics-based or otherwise religiously-charged approach to aim at looking at the New Testament using historical-critical methodology. He argues that a specific historical Jesus is likely to have really existed in the 1st century AD. Even as accounts about that figure later on brought in additional misinformation and legendary stories, Ehrman states, multiple reasons still remain to see things as framed around a flesh-and-blood actual person, at least at first.[1]
.
The historicity of Jesus concerns the degree to which sources show Jesus of Nazareth existed as a historical figure. It concerns not just the issue of "what really happened," based upon the context of the time and place, but also the issue of how modern observers can come to know "what really happened."[1] A second issue is closely tied to historical research practices and methodologies for analyzing the reliability of primary sources and other historical evidence. It also considers the question of whether he was a Nazirite.[2][3]
An overwhelming majority of New Testament scholars and Near East historians, applying the standard criteria of historical investigation, find that the historicity of Jesus is more probable than not,[4][5][6][7][nb 1][nb 2][nb 3][nb 4] although they differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the details of his life that have been described in the gospels.[nb 5][13][nb 6][15]:168–173 While scholars have criticized Jesus scholarship for religious bias and lack of methodological soundness,[nb 7] with very few exceptions, such critics generally do support the historicity of Jesus, and reject the Christ myth theory that Jesus never existed.[17][nb 8][19][20][21]
The historicity of Jesus is distinct from the related study of the historical Jesus, which refers to scholarly reconstructions of the life of Jesus, based primarily on critical analysis of the gospel texts.[22][23][24] Historicity, by contrast as a subject of study different from history proper, is concerned with two different fundamental issues. Firstly, it is concerned with the systemic processes of social change, and, secondly, what was the social context and intentions of the authors of the sources by which we can establish the truth of historical events, separating mythic accounts from factual circumstances.[25]
Well now, I have a question that I've been thinking about for some time. If Jesus was real, and he was a travelling rabbi and his "miracles" where just things that happened by either happenstance or by something we can scientifically explain now, OR he was a man much like the evangelical preachers on TV.....but for this assumption he was a nice fella that was someone people needed to look to in a time of need. If he WAS just a man. An extraordinary man but just a man. Then wouldn't the Christians who elevate him to the status of God or compare him to God be in a smidgen of trouble with worshiping a false idol?
I am NOT asking to be snide to any religion, it is a genuine question and I'd like opinions on it.
To me anyway Jesus was a charismatic individual who gathered a following , regarding miracles that's nonsense when looked at rationally as the implication then is that the laws of the natural world were somehow suspended to allow miracles to take place , also there is no recorded evidence of a miracle worker any where to back that claim up .
Who would the people be in trouble to if they were genuinely deceived it would be an honest mistake .
It is not unusual to elevate a mere mortal to god like status and in recent times we had Sai Baba who had in life a massive following and preformed conjuring tricks ( badly , I'm a former magician ) which he claimed were god give powers , in death he still has a massive following .
There is also a fascinating documentary about a man in Russia who claims to be Jesus and has a large following he is indeed very convincing ; to me people are always looking for answers and are easy prey for the charismatic ones who seem to abound .
The claim of the Jews was that Jesus was presenting Himself as equal to God making Him a blasphemer. He claimed to be God in the flesh, the Son sent by the Father full of the Holy Spirit, sinless....God the Son equal with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.
Jesus threatened the control of the Jewish religious leaders due to his growing popularity and his strong rebukes against those leaders when He told them they were liars, hypocrites, children of Hell, whitewashed tombs full of dead men's bones (referring to the message they tried to follow and teach in their religion), and blasphemy was the charge they used to justify killing Him under Jewish Law, and they pressured the local Roman procurator who governed Judea by saying "Jesus makes Himself King of the Jews, and we have no king but Caesar" (not a verbatim quote there, close enough). The Jews threatened Pontius Pilate by saying they would go over his head and appeal to Caesar is Roman law allowed no king but Caesar....so Pilate caved to their insatiable hatred and allowed Jesus to be crucified.
Yes Christians who claim Jesus is God are accused of worshiping a false god, an idol. Yet they swore at the cost of being tortured and killed that Jesus proved He is God by rising from the dead, showing them the scars of the nails and spear, inviting them to put their fingers and hands in the holes, eating with them, walking and talking with them....He appeared first to His twelve disciples, then to many others, and was seen by over 500 together at one time. If you had been one of those five hundred, or the twelve disciples, you would have done exactly what they did...they gave their lives for the good news that Jesus is God who died for our sins and is risen from the dead so all who concede their guilt and worthiness of damnation for their sins and ask God in the name of Jesus Christ, believing from their hearts that God has raised Him from the dead, asking God the Father in the name of Jesus the Son to forgive them of their sins will receive Him as their Savior and have eternal life, the promise and the gift of God through Jesus Christ.
Jesus said if you continue in His word, you are His disciple indeed and you will know the truth and the truth will make you free. His promise is rest, bread of life so you never hunger again, living waters flowing out of your belly so you never thirst again...peace with God, full reconciliation, full pardon of your sins to be covered by His blood which is the purchase price to redeem sinners from Hell.
Greater love than this has no man, to lay down his life for his friends...but herein is the love of God made manifest, in that while we were yet sinners, His enemies, Christ died for us.
Let's be clear about the differences between what the story says and what is historically accurate. As the story is written King Herod (A Hebrew) long before the trial tried to kill His God's immaculate son the saviour of the Jews. (sounds very logical from a religious perspective)
Next Jewish law did not work the way that it is portrayed in the story. Historically speaking there are many problems with the story.
The trial of Jesus is not historically feasible for many reasons let’s look carefully at what the Gospels claim.
1st the chronology is inconsistent
Mark's Chronology
Thursday Night
(14th/15th Nisan)
Taken to high priest's house
Night trial of the Sanhedrin
Friday Morning
(15th Nisan)
"consultation" with scribes, elders and the whole council
Handed Jesus to Pilate
Trial before Pilate
Lukes Chronology
Thursday Night
(14th/15th Nisan)
Taken to high priest's house
No mention of trial at night.
Friday Morning
(15th Nisan)
Trial before the Sanhedrin
Handed Jesus to Pilate
Trial before Pilate
John's chronology
Thursday Night
(13th/14th Nisan)
Taken to the high priest'sfather-in-law'shouse.
Informal interrogation by the high priest.
Friday Morning
(14th Nisan)
Handed Jesus to Pilate
Trial before Pilate
These are incompatible and irreconcilable problem #1
Very strict rules guide the procedures of the Sanhedrin: problem #2
Just as in modern courts of law, the council has a special meeting place called the Gazith (Chamber of Hewn Stone), which is part of the Temple. They do not meet anywhere else.
Its sessions start at 9am in the morning and close at 4pm in the evening.
An interval of 24 hours must elapse before the conclusion of the testimony and the rendering of a verdict.
The Sanhedrin is never convened on Sabbaths, religious holidays and especially the passover which was the most important feast in the Jewish calender. This is clearly stated by the Misnah (Sanhedrin IV:1) and Maimonides (Hilkot Sanhedrin XI:2): "Trails involving capital punishment may not be held on the eve of the Sabbath or a festival."
The Sanhedrin also does not hold any meeting at night.
Another version of the basic rules of the Sanhedrin
Here are rules of the Sanhedrin that were in place at the time according to the Jewish Mishnah:
1) No criminal session was allowed at night.
2) No Sanhedrin trial could be heard at any place other than the Temple precincts.
3) No capital crime could be tried in a one-day sitting.
4) No criminal trial could be held on the eve of a Sabbath or festival.
5) No one could be found guilty on his own confession.
6) No blasphemy charge could be sustained unless the accused pronounced the name of God in front of witnesses.
7) The Sanhedrin were allowed to execute people on their own and did not need the Romans to do so for them.
If that is not enough to prove the historical inaccuracy of the story I can also print the things historically written about Pontius Pilate which indicate that he was merciless and cared not what happened to Hebrews in the Jewish court system.
Easy there, Bib, don't give yourself a heart attack....I simply think you are a lost cause and not worth my time by your own words...You want to prove you are exonerated in death, so who am I to try to tell you that you need to wake up and quit being insane.
From the website you quote (not recommended by me as it is an atheistic website), while you pretend to have read all kinds of books with an open mind....you might want to read this page, Bib
....where they show why, from non-biblical sources, they believe and teach that Jesus was the historical figure of the New Testament and their reports agreeing with the history of the life of Christ and the early Christians.
All you have done is shown that the trial and crucifixion of Jesus was illegal...The Bible made that clear long before you found this copy and pasted garbage from an atheistic website. Remember the Bible, Bib, which you claim to know so much about? I guess you didn't know that the Bible already made it clear that the trial and crucifixion of Christ was illegal. And I guess in all your book reading you neglected to read on your own referenced atheistic website where they show that they believe the historical accounts of Jesus and the reasons His people would not renounce Him. You're just proving that you are a buffoon, Bib. Anybody who believes all the "Jesus is a myth" stuff you have bought into is an imbecile.
Here's the page from your own reference source showing the historical reality of Jesus and why His followers would not renounce Him even when faced with the most terrifying forms of torture and execution.
Really, Bib, you just make a fool out of yourself ........I guess I can see why you do it here instead of at the nursing home you claim they idolize you at....
and do you know how many people on this site have claimed to have worked in nursing homes? The percentage of people here who have claimed to have worked in nursing homes sure seems high in comparison to the percentage of people in the real world who actually have worked in nursing homes. What would it take to pretend to be a nursing home worker? Just say "I'm a nursing home worker". What special knowledge and training do you have to show? NONE!!! Amazing how many "former nursing home" atheists we have here. I no longer believe any of them....just too many claims, and too little validation.......and they always pull it out of the air suddenly when they are arguing trying to prove everybody dies with no real hope.
You have not devoted time to the study of history vs Biblical accounts. First this is a Christian site trying to support the ideas of the Christian myth.
Tacitus born 55AD died 115AD not even born during the supposed events would not have first hand knowledge when writing about this. The bigger problem with this passage is that it was supposed to have taken place around 64AD this was when Christians were still part of the Hebrew religion the divergence didn't happen until around 90AD. The claim was that there were vast multitudes of Christians. In 64AD they were being rounded up and killed. Yet no other historian of the time mentions Christians at all. Then there is the problem of Tacitus being an Imperial Writer, no imperial document would refer to Jesus as Christ. Lastly there is Eusebius who scoured the historical texts looking for evidence of Christ and is credited for the forgery in Josephus's Antiquities of the Jews
The "Testimonium Flavianum" The vast majority of religious scholars are satisfied that this was a forgery by Eusebius to give some credibility to the Christian myth since he was unable to find any real supporting evidence.
As for the Talmud reference it was put together over a 300 year span starting in 200AD Yesu was a common name in that geographical location. They give no time frame and a person named Yeshu was hanged for sorcery and they try to equate that to Christ, LOL, talk about grasping for straws.
The last reference was without details a comment about a Jewish king which is not what Jesus was considered by anyone, really????
You should spend some time truly researching religion and history from all perspectives as I have done
You have no proof that you get out of reality in death, you have no proof that you are not real so you cease to exist when your brain function ceases. Why don't you go to the nursing home and prove God does not love you or anybody who is in pain and suffering, prove God does not care about them, tell them how good is is to be in a world of pain and suffering, tell them God is dead.....don't tell them how foolish you are.
Bib, remember how you told me how much you know about the Bible, and how with a couple quick chapter and verse references off the top of my head I showed you are a fraud? Because of that, I find it hard to believe anything you say. I don't believe you have read many books on both sides of issues, I don't believe you worked in a nursing home, I don't believe you are a nice guy because of the preceding reason and the fact that you are always on the edge of exploding with me over your hatred of God. Usually you cover it up fairly well, but sometimes you really lose your composure and turn into some kind or rabid devil trying to tear me to pieces. You bore me, Bib....
Oh yeah, and lets not forget your claim to be "open minded" now. You are an atheist, which is by default closed minded, half your brain shut down by your own choice as you hide behind your self-made mental block wall of sin behind which you think God can't see you and you can keep Him out of your life. You wouldn't even have air to breath but God gives it to you, and you think you can shut Him out? You're shutting yourself out of life, Bib, sealing your own dying in eternal death, you are not getting out of reality, not being exonerated in death..sorry Bib, that's just too bad for you, isn't it? yep... I really do feel sorry for you Bib but I know it's a waste of time to try to help you.
That edu site you referenced does all it can to trash the deity of Christ, deny His bodily resurrection, and trash His word. The only thing they do is a fair representation of history which recognizes the life and trial of Jesus Christ and the conviction of His followers that He rose from the dead bodily, is God in the flesh, and that His followers refused to renounce there belief even when facing terrors of torture and execution.
Yes I have read all of the atheistic garbage and agnostic professors who do everything they can to trash the deity of Christ. The only reason they do it is because they are too proud to admit they do not deserve to be exonerated in death. Your religion, Bib, is the religion of death, you want death, you want to spread it around on everybody else, you're a sick bastard, Bib....and the word is not a cuss word, it accurately describes you as without a fathers chastisement. You think you are the god of you, your own little god father, and you think you make your rules....Why don't you be a real man and go to Iran and tell them Allah is a lie, Mohammed is a liar, and there is no God. Show us how much of a man you are and how much you really believe what you believe, Bib.
They can cut my head off and send me to Heaven before I renounce God the Savior Jesus Christ who took my death on Himself and paid my price so I don't have to pay in Hell. I'm forgiven, Bib....you keep on trying to forgive yourself, keep on believing death exonerates you, and see where you get yourself.
These references don't trash the deity of Christ as you say they just require evidence to believe something. They are not willing to accept on faith what people who have a religious agenda tell them. It's called critical thinking, it's what intelligent people do very often.
Do you truly think that explaining the truth about religion to religious zealots in countries where they have religious based government somehow makes you a man? That comment has a complete lack of intellect. It's people like them and you that perpetuate the hatred we see between many groups of mankind. It is a sad thing to see as intelligent people that people with Gods are still using them as an excuse for hate and murder. I will say this at least those people in Iran that you speak of have true faith in their God and follow the ancient rules and ideas not like the Christians who just make things up to suit their fancy.
You full of hate and judgement thinking that you are somehow morally superior to me. Yet you spew your hateful comments and your wishful thinking that all of us are going to somehow defy all that we know to be true and live forever to be tortured, even though you have no body to feel pain or suffering. I guess when you just accept crazy ideas that people tell you on pure faith that's what you get, Crazy!
So what do you think heaven will be like? I ask because that is just as crazy a concept. if you don't have a body what goes to heaven, since it clearly state in the Bible that you will have no earthly body. Why would the streets be paved in Gold as the Bible states. Why would you need the high walls described in the Bible. It's because the people that dreamed up the story lived in a time where walls were necessary for protection and Gold was considered beautiful and valuable. It would not be of any value in a heaven as the concept goes, since man created the idea it is flawed like all of the other religious ideas.
Before I realized you're a complete cracked pot according to the vast majority of atheistic historians, do you remember how you earned the name, Bib, Bob?
Remember how you told me how you know soooooo much about the Bible, then when I got you talking about what you "know", I quickly proved you know next to nothing about the Bible by quoting a couple chapter and verse references off the top of my head?
That's how you convinced me never to believe you when you talk about how much you know, or where you learned it, or your personal experience, or anything else. You've joined the cracked pots, Bib.......the "Jesus is a myth" crowd is cracked pots shunned by the vast majority of atheistic historians. Your crowd is just cheap internet loud mouths which gain some popularity by sensationalism. Real historians want nothing to do with your crowd, they want no association with your crowd.
I know that you have a different memory of the comments and debates with everyone you talk to. I remember a person who had no idea what the commandments written on the stone tablets according to the Bible were. I had to tell you and I'll bet you still have no idea what the Biblical account of that tale says. Truth is that you are always so busy judging everyone who fails to believe in your version of god and demigod that you really never discuss the Bible and what it really says. You just tell us that we have no right to exist outside of your Hell and that they are stupid that's the extent of your debates As for real historians 2000 years later they still can't find a shred of evidence to support the Christian myth.
Here's the proof that what I say is true, Name one piece of evidence discovered during the supposed time of Christ that supports the theory that the Biblical cannons are not just an allegorical fiction???
Do you admit you were lying when you claimed to know so much about the Bible, Bib? Just yes or no. If you do not answer honestly with a yes, I'm not going to read your stuff and I will keep reminding everybody you are a cracked pot and why I believe you cannot be believed in anything you say about yourself.
Man up now, Bib.
Do you admit you were lying when you claimed to know so much about the Bible and I proved you ignorant when you pretended to know what you are talking about then I quoted a couple chapter and verse references off the top of my head?
Be honest now, Bib, or I'm just going to keep trashing you personally as you try to trash Christianity only because you feel you should have the right to be exonerated in death and exist outside of Hell.
You're not stupid Bib, but it is stupid to be an atheist....you're committing slow suicide, literally, hoping you exonerate yourself in death. You're diabolical, Bib, not stupid. Why don't you go to the nursing home and tell all those people there is no hope in pain and suffering but to hope death gets them out of reality? You're evil, Bib, not stupid...a fool.
Well, I guess it is stupid to be a fool......so I guess you are stupid. Oh well, it is what it is...if you feel I'm calling you stupid then that's just too bad, isn't it you cracked pot?
You lie through your teeth, Bib, trying to draw me down to wallow in your mud. That's why I quit reading you when you were doing this same useless exercise you feel compelled to do a few months back. Your charges against me are not worth answering, it's all in waterfall, liar......your a cracked pot, a waste of time to try to reason with. Just go on hoping to get out of reality and be exonerated in death and see what happens, that's what you want to do so what's wrong with me telling you to do it? God would quit holding you back from it if He didn't love you, Bib...but you can't expect Him to hold back His wrath forever as you spit in his face and trample His blood under your feet after He died for you.
There's really nothing that can be done for somebody like you but to preach the truth loud and clear and walk away.
anybody with half a brain can google refutation of your crack pot beliefs, Bib....the vast majority of atheistic historians are honest and shun the crack pot few admired by you. You're just copy and pasting a bunch of junk Bib, and making a lot of statements that are nothing but bold faced lies, rhetoric designed to try to convince people that they should not investigate reality for themselves.
Your main tactic is insult, and weak minded robots like yourself will obey their masters and refuse to listen to reason while pushing your ideas which destroy the moral fabric of society enabling your leaders to control the masses more easily. Why you feel you need to kill God, get rid of His word, and get rid of Christians is a bit of a mystery. What happened to you, Bib? Did God let your ice cream cone fall on the sidewalk and melt while you cried and watched? Was God the big meany who allowed it to fall and failed to put it back clean in your hand to enjoy? Why are you trying to be God, Bib, and why are you trying to make yourself unreal in death?
Why are you trying to make yourself unreal in death, Bib? Why? Do you hate yourself that much?
I know you are a liar and I don't believe anything you say. I don't even believe you when you say that you believe there is no God. I think you have ulterior motives in what you are doing here and I would not trust you as far as I can throw you.
The vast majority of real historians think you and your "mythers" are nut cases who are ignorant of history and desperate to change it. Atheistic schools today teach Jesus is the real person portrayed in the New Testament, and that His followers believed He is divine, they believed He is bodily risen from the dead,...and so forth. Those atheistic schools also acknowledge the reality of the trial and crucifixion of Christ. They will not bow to His Lordship over Creation, they will not bow to Him willingly, but they are not so stupid as you to insist He never existed.
You're a fruit loop, Bib.
I took classes less than three years ago at one of these atheistic schools......amazing how they hate Christians, hate conservatives, hate white men, hate the Bible......but they never went off the deep end like you, Bib, and your "Jesus is a myth" teachers, denying He ever existed at all. They simply paint Christ as a mere man, and Christianity as a religion founded by Constantine in an effort to consolidate the crumbling Roman Empire.
You're a closed minded ignorant fool, Bib. Whatever makes you think that somehow you became suddenly smarter than all of the historians over the past two thousand years would make you a multi billionaire if you could put it in pill form and sell it on the black market.....you sure got a big head, Bib.
You can't even convince yourself that you are real, Bib. Why do you bother trying to convince anybody of anything?
If you had any backbone, you would go to a place like Iran and try to convince them to be what you think you are, Mr. Super Good Nice Guy, tell them there is no God so they don't have to keep trying to kill all the Jews, Christians, Atheists, and Homosexuals.
You're a coward, Bib. You just like to pick on Christians because you know they will not cut your head off and most Christians are not prepared to answer you with your carefully crafted talking points which you hold in your mind as unquestionable.....and you hate Christians the most because they tell you that you are a sinner who deserves to burn in Hell, does not deserve to live, and you want to justify yourself instead of upholding God's justice. Christians are generally an easy target for you, good for a coward and bully...your just a bully, Bib, trying to bully Christians in order to make yourself feel exonerated in death. A rock has more backbone than you, and is easier to reason with.
You're a phony, Bib...you claimed to know so much about the Bible, then when you talked about what you claim to know I proved you a fraud with two or three quick chapter and verse references off the top of my head. Do you remember that, Bib? It's how you earned the moniker "Bib", Bob. Also, because you are so doggedly determined to promote your dogma, I suspect you are SlapShot, Demon Hunter, Bohemium, and maybe a couple others like you who seem to come and go in timing with the appearances of the other screen names. It's funny how all of you make some kind of claim to greatness, and how you elaborate on what you want people to believe is your personal life. I don't believe anything you claim about yourself, Bib. If I see proof that I am wrong, I will apologize for most of what I've said on that, but you will forever have a hard time convincing of your claims of all the books you have read, and I'll always call you a bold faced liar when you claim to be open minded.
I never lie about my experience, accomplishments, or education. History has always been a hobby of mine, it fascinates me the same as physics, biology, cosmology....can't remember exactly how many college history classes I took, some were almost twenty years ago (Western Civ was one back then)...seems I had three but I can't recall the names of the top of my head and don't care to dig through my school records. I may be confusing late high school history classes, I know I took two of them as electives shortly before graduating High School. Archaeology is not so appealing to me due the the many varying interpretations of data but I do know that archaeology supports the Biblical account of history. You can easily show this with a little web search, most of my learning was the hard way long before the internet was invented. I have read plenty of history, and I have read plenty of the sources you site trying to support your closed-minded twisted view of history.
You, Bib, have bought into following some crack pots who have discovered they can actually make money by selling the Bible story as a myth in spite of the fact that the vast majority of atheistic historians do not dispute the life of Jesus Christ, His trial and crucifixion, or the history of the early church before Constantine tried to control Christianity be claiming he had converted and he installed a state controlled pagan religion hijacking some Biblical names and events and by force of law declaring it's dogma to be superior to the Bible. Most of this is clear in atheistic textbooks, and atheistic college textbooks disagree with none of it.
I think you are a complete fraud, Bib. All the stuff you try to push is easily copy and pasted from the web, and easily debunked. The only part of you I think is genuine is that you are desperate to remain convinced that your life is justified and you are exonerated in death so you get out of reality and do not have to worry about being accountable for your immoralities, your wrong actions, words, and imaginations.
You want to talk about everything except the truth of your desire to be exonerated in death, and you do that because you cannot handle the thought of not getting out of reality in death, you don't know what is going to happen or what you are going to do when you wake up in reality finding your body has ceased functioning in this world yet you remain you...and you wake up in Hell if you go out the way you are now against God, Bib. You are literally asking to be in Hell where you will experience nothing good from God when you insist reality has nothing good from God. The truth is that all good things come from God, and in reality you abuse the time He gives you by refusing to thank Him for His goodness. You want reality to be void of God's goodness, and He is reluctant to give you that reality of you would be burning in Hell now. You should be thanking God for His mercy, but instead you continue in your pride to offend God and heap up more and more of His wrath against you.
You do realize, Bib, that you are presenting yourself as a teacher, a guide, and trying to lead others in your way of death, and you are responsible for those who follow you and you will receive extra punishment for them, right? Sure, you want to deny it and believe you get out of reality in death and are exonerated by death but I have bad news for you, Bib...you're not getting off the hook. Your a worm on the hook of death and you can't get out. Sorry, Bib.
You might notice, Bib, that I"m not bothering to argue your points, putting very little effort into it. The vast majority of atheistic historians would label you a crack pot, and anybody who wants the truth will find it for themselves if they honestly and objectively seek it, and they will know Jesus Chris is God the resurrected Savior, the only LORD GOD ALMIGHTY. You're just a feeble invention of your own little imaginary god, which is your own ego, dying...a pitiful little god you are Bib, can't get yourself out of death and you love it.
You're religion is a self-deceiving vain philosophy, and you try to run rabbit trails debating history to avoid the obvious flaws of your religious philosophy. Your method is nothing but to insult the intelligence of anybody who does not bow down to you and applaud your claim of being a great person.
There have been a few times when people were looking me in the eyes and lying to me, when I knew the truth of the situation and they were unaware that I knew the truth....and as they were talking, I said to myself "watch, listen, take note...this is how somebody looks and acts when they are lying". After you claimed to know so much about the Bible and then told me about some of your vast Bible knowledge which I quickly proved fraudulent with a couple chapter and verse references of the top of my head, there always remains that gut feeling that I should watch you, observe, and take note of how people talk and act when lying, Bib.
There is plenty of evidence supporting the Biblical assertions of Christians...plenty of evidence outside of the Bible from non-Christian historical and archaeological sources...here are some.
Honest historians do not dispute the life of Jesus Christ nor the reason His followers refuse to renounce them no matter how they are tortured or killed.
People who say he was nice or extraordinary are admiring a man who they call a liar if they do not believe what He said claiming to be God. He was either a liar and/or a lunatic or He was everything He claimed to be, God in the flesh. People who say they admire his teachings or example but they think His claims of being divine were lies are saying they admire liars and lunatics and I sure don't listen to or respect people who think that way and would not trust them as they admire liars and lunatics....kind of like people who admire witches....(sorry, just had to throw that in...I really hope you are honestly seeking the truth. God promises you will know Him in reality and know Jesus is God if you seek God with your whole heart.....and if you do that, you will renounce witches and witchcraft as evil......and Jesus called His own disciples evil...it's just the truth about sinners, as sinners we are evil.)
For a while I actually enjoyed what you wrote, it was well written and thought out and had zero attacks or insults, until you stupid little jab. Up until then, you were debating well and giving me good information. So thank you for showing me a side of you I rarely see, even if you reverted back to the norm after.
It was not an attack or insult at the end, simply the truth. If you really believe on Jesus it will cause a barrier between you and your witch friends and you will see them in a whole new light. I understand you are not ready to believe on Jesus and maybe never will be.
I didn't revert back to nothing, I stand strong on the truth because I know it's good and you can't be partially truthful and be good. I am tenderhearted and compassionate toward people and will do anything I can if it will help them, and in doing so I will always tell them God loves them and try to get them to believe on Jesus. In this environment here, it's like being in a car in heavy traffic. When screened behind the walls of their car, or behind the walls of the computer screen, people tend to let their nastiest sides out as they repress such animosity in much of their day to day life. All you can do is try to survive the traffic as you keep focused on your destination. My destination is Heaven, where I will see Jesus face to face and be forever changed into His perfect likeness and image when my sin-bound body of death is destroyed and I will have a new body like His....and one day even this old body will be resurrected and restored to life like His, it will be changed, sinless, living forever glorify, praising, and serving God who deserves all of the honor for creating me and giving me freedom.
People hate me and act like animals because I speak against sin. Sin always hurts the sinner and anybody around it, I hate sin. They would not be so nasty in face to face everyday encounters, and they would find me to be generally pleasant and engaging.....and if they boast of sin publicly, I will do exactly what Jesus did in such cases and tell them they are being wicked, name their sins and attitudes, and tell them they need to be saved from Hell....and walk away (if they don't crucify me, of course).
I was not debating, I was presenting truth. I saw you were being honest in trying to understand the answer to your question, and I gave you the answer in truth. If you argue against the points I presented, you are debating, arguing against the truth. It's much better to listen and understand. If people really thought about the things they believe about reality, and really sought to understand the truth, they would come to know God personally in reality through Jesus Christ who promised never to leave or forsake His disciples.....and He kept and keeps that promise.
I have read many books on both sides of the argument. The most compelling part of the Christ Myth side is the fact that all of the arguments for the other side come exclusively from Biblical Scholars. This equates to people using a single source as their historical evidence. These people are seemingly dogmatic thinkers with the mind set that Jesus was a historical figure then they work backwards. The Critical thinkers who start with a premise of What is the evidence to support the Christ story always end up with nothing. I have around 70 pages of notes from the research I have done on the subject which clearly show that the Christian texts are clearly a fictional work.
So what evidence convinces you of the existence of Christ even as a man?
You're a liar, Bib, I don't believe anything you say...if you have "read many books" you did it with a closed mind, the same as you are now, trying to support your belief that you are exonerated in death and exempt from Hell. All you are doing is trying to justify yourself, Bib, and you are obviously failing to do that and the evidence is your dying, fool.
I'm really trying to ignore you...but you sure are a pest. Why don't you go to the nursing home you claim they idolize you at and post this hateful garbage there? You have to come here to get your hatred off your chest? Why don't you go to the nursing home and tell them all that their is no hope of Heaven, and death is okay? Why don't you sell your garbage there, Bib, why bring it here?
NowASaint, I have not posted anything hateful as you claim. You only view it that way because your God is YOU your God lives only in YOUR imagination, so by me questioning YOUR God you feel that I am attacking you. I am not attacking anyone though I am just pointing out the realities of our situation. Reality can be disappointing and cruel but me pointing out the reality of our world does not make me hateful. If you can't handle reality why to you troll a debate site and enter discussions about the realities of religion?
As for my place of employment the people there who are trying to escape the reality of their situation by believing in immortality, don't ask nor do they criticize, they are content to live in their little (private reality). If that is what makes them feel happy for their time left it is a great thing. We should all have the right to happiness if we must live in an alternate reality to be happy then so be it, you should be more like me and not criticize or judge. I would not tell you about the realities of the world if you had not entered my discussion with hateful rhetoric.
If you step back and look at the situation with an open mind as I have you too would discover that there is no way that the gods written about in the ancient texts which you follow can exist as they are described. It is you that have closed your mind. If you don't wish to know the truth you should not discuss religion with knowledgeable like myself. As you have noticed I can disprove the Biblical texts 6 ways to Sunday and I love a good challenge that is why I come here and debate religion. So far no one has been able to point out anything persuasive but maybe some day it will happen.
Sorry, Bib, your mission of death in atheism is boring. Why don't you go attack Allah for a while? Why are you so selective in which faith you want to destroy? Why do you hope to get out of reality in death? What makes you think I"m supposed to believe you are sane when you cannot even tell me that you are real and not only a product of chemical fizzes which seems to be consciousness?
Take it to the nursing home, Bib, and smile for them as you tell them there is no God, God does not care about them, and their is no hope but in death, tell them how you love death and hate God, tell them how you hate Jesus Christ and the Bible and Christians, be the real you Bib, quit being a hypocrite with the old folks..tell them how you really feel about the futility of pain and suffering, tell them how they should be like you saying God does not care for them.
Tell them death gets them out of reality so they don't have to care about anything like you. Be the real you, Bib, even though you think you are not really you and are only a decaying chemical reaction.
You told me you know sooooo much about the Bible and then proved to me quickly you know nothing about it and I proved you a fraud with just a couple Chapter and verse Bible references off the top of my head. I don't believe you have read many books at all, I think you just go copy and pasting for what ever little piece of info you have picked up from tv, trying to elaborate on little pieces of trash that tickle your fancy making you feel like you are justified and exonerated in death. You love death, Bib, admit it, it's your best friend in your phony smiley religion.
What a bold faced liar you are, Bib....you can easily google non-biblical historical references to Jesus Christ and Christianity in the first and second century. Idiot's like you try to twist everything around...your junk is a new thing, Bib....only recently has anybody been stupid and brave enough to try to present themselves as educated teaching the garbage you are trying to push...
All you are doing is trying to justify your own sin, Bib, by claiming death exonerates you. You love death and hate God, you want out of reality and you hate God for bringing you into a reality of pain and suffering. Admit it, Bib. Be a man.
And show some backbone and go to Iran and them them their is no God, and let's see how long you maintain your position.
I don't doubt that Jesus lived, or even that he taught people to think differently. But what I do agree with you on is the scriptures which were all written many years after the events that inspired them and are full of trumped up claims, mandates, and warnings all designed to boost the fledgling church and shield those being persecuted for following it. Which means quoting it literally as the word of Christ or God is foolhardy. The lesson the world needs to absorb is to live like Christ, with love and compassion and humility.
I agree. The big problem with the end of that is the disagreement to what "live like Christ" means. I mean, do we really have to tell other people who believe Christ would want you to live a different way, and if you don't it means you will "go to hell"!?? Know what I mean??;-)
You'd accomplish little by trying to use my or Dermot's words against the chimp or Stain (even though Stain is a greater idiot - you'd need a lot of skill to surpass him.)
But all contenders can do little against the monstrous levels of Stain.
Outlaw still does it for points, probably. And I've even seen him behaving rationally some times. Though the only one that comes close enough is the maggot From Within.
Now A Stain is barking mad , I normally ignore him but I gave him a roasting today as at times it's fun , from within banned me from all debates he is an insecure bully and also possibly insane
I've destroyed their position with the 4 debates, and I remember that the 5th one would burn some of the last stands down. It was going to be in line with the other debates. But it escaped me.
Though if Stain was more literate, I could easily convince him that I'm Antichrist.
Even if I am, a 2000 year old fairytale can certainly not predict me.
Anyway, it hardly matters what it says. No, I don't enjoy a blood bath - it is too quick for my preference. Though I wouldn't mind even Impalement when time is short. But generally, I'd want an orchestra of screams. And if we go too rough, then the tuning is annoying, too.
Though I always have a cost-benefit analysis of whether to follow the herd or not.
The prophecy was written down before it was fulfilled. It existed and the whole world bore witness to it as it happened. It wasn't after it had happened that it was written. Even if you call it a myth(which is illogical), what it predicted came to pass.
I mean who wakes up to write fiction stories about the world and it coincidentally happens exactly as predicted.
Do you have a problem with it being true?
So much that, even though you nothing to disprove it, you insist still, that it is a myth...
Do you get paid for that? Or due to fear of the possibility of the whole story being true including the God aspect which is inclined to an awful truth, which is; you have a God really waiting to make you account for all that you have done wrongly ignoring the fact that He exists.
What you claim is that the prophecy was written before the events but that is not true. There is absolutely no evidence of that being the case. In fact all the writings which we have were all written long after the events were to supposed to have occurred. The beauty of fictional work is that you can claim anything you wish and have magic, miracles and happy endings what ever you can dream up can happen in a fictional story.
The Bible did not come out of the Babylonian Empire, it was given to and preserved by the Jews, and then by Christians in the Roman Empire. Try to use your noggin and show some common sense.
What am I to prove. The claim is that there is evidence that there was a figure in history a Messiah named Jesus. There is NO historical evidence to support that claim. The only mention of Jesus are a collection of religious works written by unknown authors long after the supposed events. The are written in the allegorical fiction style of the time. There are many quotes given that were part of conversations in private which in historical writings of that time you would never have. There are activities written about that the authors could not have known about such as conversations between Joseph and the holy spirit. This was a common technique in the many fictional works of the time. All of the aspect of this Messiah were parts of other demigods of the time. There was nothing unique to this one except that it was the Jewish messiah.
I would challenge you to offer any Historical evidence to support the idea that Jesus was a real figure in history
I think you'll have to elaborate on a few things. What do you mean by great detail? Would you mind showing something in particular that stood out to you that you think wasn't true? If Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?
The debate is "the Jesus story is Allegorical Fiction".
Therefore, the debate question is "is the story of Jesus Allegorical Fiction?"
Due to this being a debate, you must therefore argue for or against.
"If Christianity is true, would you be a Christian?" is an irrelevant question because it is not relating to the debate topic. Make your own debate if you want to ask that.
So you're saying that my asking about Christianity on a debate about Christianity is a bad thing? Why is it so important to you that I pick a side? Do you really consider it that bad of an idea to ask for elaboration?
No, I'm saying that you should answer the debate before you ask your own questions. Otherwise there was no point in replying, you may as well just DM the OP or create your own debate.
So you're saying that the only way to question the OP is either through DM or once you've already stated your own belief? Why would I need to make sure people know what I think about this beforehand? Doesn't starting a debate open yourself to questions from the start regardless of whether or not you know the questioners beliefs?
You were never a Christian, you were a fake then and you are a fake now, pretending to be stronger than God. Catholics are fake Christians. Anybody who thinks Mary is the Mother of God is not a Christian.
I read more of your stuff than I should have....just had to say you never were a Christian, you were a fake. For a person to be a child of God is a miracle which cannot be undone. You can't be a Christian one day and then be an atheist the next day. You can be a Catholic one day and then anything you want to be the next day. God made me His child when I came to Him in faith knowing I deserve to die and burn in Hell, believing Jesus is God who died for me and is risen from the dead offering forgiveness to all who will receive Him and in His name I called on God and asked His forgiveness and He saved me, Jesus came in and gave me a new heart born of His Spirit, His blood covers all of my sin, the Catholic church sells a hopeless religion of trying to be good enough to avoid Hell. I really don't care what the Catholic church says about me, they are pagan idolatry masked with Biblical names and words which they invent their own meaning for in Catholic dogma, fakes like you can be Catholic any time they want to be but you cannot be a Christian but by coming to terms with God personally through the blood of His Son and you have decided He is not God so you cannot be saved from Hell.
It's amazing how many atheists come out of Catholicism.
There are certain patient individuals who actually argue with you not realising as I have that you are certifiably insane , you probably sit up all night wondering why Jesus the carpenter never sang on any of their records .....
That's bloody aces, mate. But are you bleeding barmy, or do you 'ave the right to exist outside of hell? Me rather thinks that I would fancy buggering off to hell and drinking and getting pissed and watching football with me mates rather than having to be so sodding prim and proper up in that other place, where a lads got to know that there ain't no quaffing or shagging going on. Instead you go bleeding daft from worrying that that sodding yhweh is gonna take a piss. That sort of worry will get you knackered.
Your a foul mouth vulgar man who acts like there is no authority over him, a fool who thinks he is his own little god (pitiful little dying god), and that is the definition of a bastard. Why would I want to read your words to have your filth in my eyes? Why don't you go to Iran and tell them that there is no God. Be a man, show how tough you really are in between the times you are spitting your bloody teeth out at me you punk.
Bollocks! You sure got cheeky, mate. Guess I touched a nerve by denying your silly little God? Well fancy this before ya have a piss and go all barmy like...I have told those dirty little buggers in Iraq that Allah is shite. Did so when I was over there in that shite hole called Tikrit, doing support work with one of your Yanks Army units. We did IT and satellite linkups. But we had a brig there for Iraqi prisoners of war, and I can tell you I had a go or two with those wankers. And it wasn't me who spat out his bloody teeth, if you catch my drift.
So I reckon you've no grounds to call me a punk. Or per chance a brave soul such as yourself can tell us when such a time as he ever confronted and assaulted Islam jihadists as did me and me mates?
Now go on and have a wank in your cozy little bed and dream about you possessing even a bleeding farthings worth of that courage. Mate.
LOL.
Cheers. I'll 'ave a pint of ale and drink to the fact I affront any sodding godists. That includes you too, hero.
hahahahahah....funny.....you must be actually reading my response after I see your icon, ignore what you say, not read one word of your post, and then I speak the truth to you and it annoys you so much you feel you have to fight against it trying to justify yourself.
Give it up, Aussie.....if you could justify yourself, you would not have to die. You need to seek and be sure of God's eternal mercy to be forgiven and saved from Hell, and through the blood of His Son is the only way. You can be covered by His blood, or you can trample his blood under your feet. His blood is on your hands, and your blood is on your own head if you will not believe God loves you so much that He died for you to pull you out of death.
Pay attention and take the spunk out of your bleeding ears. You go off on a piss and get all sodding cheeky but you understand nothing, mate. We 'ad a bibld thumper like you with us in Tikrit and he pissed himself every time we got mortared. Bleeding hilarious, that. Used to call him Wee Willy the Pee Boy. His name was Willy. But his John Thomas was about three inches long.
I would like to start with your last question, if Christianity were true I would have no choice but to be a Christian. I was taught to be a Christian by my family and peer group I only discovered that it was false when I decided to devote myself to the study of my religion. It was very disappointing and disheartening.
It is a very involved dissection of history vs Biblical accounts along with the inconsistencies in the Biblical texts. One of the big problems is that there were 43 historians writing about that time period in that period NONE of them mention any of the events discussed in the Gospels. Then when you look at the writing style it is the same as the other fictional works of the time. It is nothing like the Historical writings. In the Biblical texts they quote private conversations, discuss what happened in dreams, list supernatural events. These were all very common in fictional texts of that era and NONE of the historical works of the time. I didn't want to be to wordy but I have a 70 page reference of things that convinced me that there was no historical Jesus. I would gladly send it to you if you have any interest.
Thank you for your reply. I would like to see this reference that you mentioned. Would you be willing to give me some examples of the inconsistencies that you mentioned? As for things like quoting private conversations, dream interpretation, and supernatural events, what is it about them that you would say is fictional? To me, I see this as evidence of people knowing who to talk to. I don't see this as evidence against it even though it may have some similarities with fiction
I would be happy to share with you any of the information that I have gathered through the years. I am not sure if there is a way for me to send you my entire reference which is 78 pages on word other than email. If you have any interest you could email me at [email protected]
Here is some of that material:
allegorical writing in the 1st century CE among both Jews and Neo-Platonic Greeks and Romans. Indeed the Jewish writer Philo wrote about symbolic and allegorical interpretation of the Hebrew scriptures shortly before Paul began writing his first letters about Jesus.
Let's take a look at the beginning of the story of Mark, just to get an idea of how this story reads.
1 The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah,[a] the Son of God,[b] 2 as it is written in Isaiah the prophet:
“I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way”[c]—
3 “a voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.’”[d]
4 And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. 6 John wore clothing made of camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. 7 And this was his message: “After me comes the one more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8 I baptize you with[e] water, but he will baptize you with[f] the Holy Spirit.”
The Baptism and Testing of Jesus
9 At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”
12 At once the Spirit sent him out into the wilderness, 13 and he was in the wilderness forty days, being tempted[g] by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him.
Jesus Announces the Good News
14 After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. 15 “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”
This is written in a narrative fashion and makes no claim to being a historical account. The Gospel isn't written like other histories of its time, but it is written like other allegorical stories of its time. To get a sense of this we can compare the Gospel of Mark to other historical accounts, by both Jews and Romans, that were written around the same time.
Historical works typically had a table of contents, the authors of the works identified themselves, and they were written in a formal style. We can begin with The Wars of the Jews, by Josephus.
WHEREAS the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that ever were heard of; both of those wherein cities have fought against cities, or nations against nations; while some men who were not concerned in the affairs themselves have gotten together vain and contradictory stories by hearsay, and have written them down after a sophistical manner; and while those that were there present have given false accounts of things, and this either out of a humor of flattery to the Romans, or of hatred towards the Jews; and while their writings contain sometimes accusations, and sometimes encomiums, but no where the accurate truth of the facts; I have proposed to myself, for the sake of such as live under the government of the Romans, to translate those books into the Greek tongue, which I formerly composed in the language of our country, and sent to the Upper Barbarians; Joseph, the son of Matthias, by birth a Hebrew, a priest also, and one who at first fought against the Romans myself, and was forced to be present at what was done afterwards, [am the author of this work].
Now at the time when this great concussion of affairs happened, the affairs of the Romans were themselves in great disorder. Those Jews also who were for innovations, then arose when the times were disturbed; they were also in a flourishing condition for strength and riches, insomuch that the affairs of the East were then exceeding tumultuous, while some hoped for gain, and others were afraid of loss in such troubles; for the Jews hoped that all of their nation which were beyond Euphrates would have raised an insurrection together with them.
- Josephus; The Wars of the Jews, 70 CE This was also written at pretty much the same time that the Gospel of Mark was probably written.
Here is an example of the difference between allegorical fiction vs historical texts I have more in my notes
Here are a couple of examples of impossible quotes given in the Bible there are many that would be historically impossible if you read the Gospels critically you will start to pick them out
18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about[d]: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet[e] did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.
20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[f] because he will save his people from their sins.”
22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”[g] (which means “God with us”).
24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
In Matthew, the angel appears to Joseph in a dream and tells him that Mary's child will save his people from their sins. In Luke, the angel tells Mary that her son will be great, he will be called the Son of the Most High and will rule on David's throne forever. A short time later Mary tells Elizabeth that all generations will consider her (Mary) blessed because of the child that will be born to her.
This is written as a story not a historical account, how would the author have known word for word what was said to Joseph???
Mt Ch 1: Dream angel, word for word
An angel spoke to Jesus' step-Pa in a dream. And "Matthew" was able to get the conversation, the dream conversation, down verbatim. Word for word. Decades later.
How did "Matthew" do that? What steps could "Matthew" have possibly taken to access the exact words spoken in a dream decades earlier?
First of all, how does "Matthew" know it was an actual angel, a magic messenger from God that actually appeared in Joseph's dream—a deeply pagan idea—rather than just Joseph had a normal, non-magical dream about an angel?
Second, remembering dreams at all is difficult, who can remember dream conversations word for word? 20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream andsaid, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"--which means, "God with us."
Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 1
Third, who can recount the exact words spoken in any conversation decades later? I can't. You can't. And we're supposed to believe Joseph could? Or "Matthew" -- or who?
You read the words of the angel just now, within the last two minutes. Quick get out a pen and write them down. Never mind decades later, do it now two minutes later. The truth is it is not possible to report verbatim conversations in someone else's dream, word for word, decades later. What "Matthew" claims to do is not possible.
How does the historicist imagine "Matthew" was able to get these words exactly right—as "Matthew" claims to do—all those decades later, and "Matthew" not being there when they were said? 1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem 2 and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."
And right away the chief priests and teachers of the law reply to King Herod all together, in a chorus, citing Christian doctrine, quoting the Septuagint version of the Old Testament exactly. One is reminded of Ovid's country folk declaiming to each other in trochaic hexameter.
3 When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 When he had called together all the people's chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Christ was to be born. 5 "In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied,"for this is what the prophet has written: 6"'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.'"
"Matthew" has King Herod call the wise men into a secret meeting, up at the castle, doors closed, phone off the hook, mum's the word. "Matthew" reports the doings of the secret meeting word for word >>
Herod speaks concisely, exactly the words "Matthew" needs to move his plot along.
7 Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared. 8 He sent them to Bethlehem and said,"Go and make a careful search for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him."
I'll respond to both of your replies to save space and so you don't have to flop between replies a lot. When you say that in allegorical fiction, the authors didn't identify themselves whereas the ones who wrote a historical narrative did, I think you would have to say what you mean by identify oneself because it could be said that there was an identification in the title of the gospel of mark. Also, there is usually a theme a theme in a historical narrative from what I've seen. In the case of the gospel of mark, it would be Jesus presented as a servant. Also, I don't think it follows that if a writing is considered a historical narrative that it then must identify itself as such. In terms of formality, how formal does something have to be before its considered formal? I read the gospel of mark and see formal writing. Maybe not like Josephus though. However, I would also argue that though the gospels are historical, the authors weren't intending to write a historical narrative. Josephus would have been writing a historical narrative as it was his intention to do so as were other roman and jewish historians.
As for the impossible quotes, this is what I have heard about the texts. I will need to give some context. The people of the time were a very vocal in the sense of how they recorded things. Information was spread by word of mouth and I would agree with you when you say that in todays world, it would be very difficult for people to remember something someone said decades later let alone the next day. Because people spread information through word of mouth, it was required that people have a good memory. I think it is fallacious to think that because we have trouble doing it today, then that must mean they had trouble doing it back then as well. Now with that said, I think it is reasonable to think that Joseph was able to remember his dream with great detail since the people of the time were expected to know a great number of things from memory. You're right when you say that Joseph could have easily had a dream that happened to have an angel in it instead of God actually appearing to him in one. However, I do not think that is a reasonable conclusion as there was no reason for Joseph to lie about God appearing to him. What reason would Joseph have to put his life, as well as Mary's, on the line like that for a lie? People are a lot more willing to die for something they think is the truth than for something they know is a lie. For your third point, I mentioned earlier how it was fallacious to think that because we can't do something, then that they means they can't do it either. Like I mentioned, the people at the time were a very vocal society in terms of how they recorded things. This was due to the fact that paper was that the tools that were necessary for them to write these things down wasn't available to the average to the average person. Your point about getting information that seemed impossible to get at the time, other gospels give information about each other. A completely unrelated event that would help prove the point is the miracles in bethsaida. Matthew doesn't record any miracles happening there, but Luke says that the feeding of the 5,000 happened there. A minor example, but proves my point nonetheless. As for Matthew knowing what was said in a room he wasn't in, the gospel of Luke that answer the question. It mentions that the wife of the Chuza who was Herod's steward was following Jesus. Something to mention was that Matthew was following Jesus at the same time she was. Hope this helps
Everybody has a choice, Bib. You do not want to concede that God is better, stronger, and smarter than you. It's called pride, Bib. You want to be God, Bib. You're losing, Bib. You're lost.
So you believe you are exonerated in death and there is only one way to test your belief, Bib. You have no evidence that your belief is true, but go ahead and test it.
Although there is overwhelming evidence that the New Testament is an accurate and trustworthy historical document, many people are still reluctant to believe what it says unless there is also some independent, non-biblical testimony that corroborates its statements.
First, both Josephus and Lucian indicate that Jesus was regarded as wise. Second, Pliny, the Talmud, and Lucian imply He was a powerful and revered teacher. Third, both Josephus and the Talmud indicate He performed miraculous feats. Fourth, Tacitus, Josephus, the Talmud, and Lucian all mention that He was crucified. Tacitus and Josephus say this occurred under Pontius Pilate. And the Talmud declares it happened on the eve of Passover. Fifth, there are possible references to the Christian belief in Jesus' resurrection in both Tacitus and Josephus. Sixth, Josephus records that Jesus' followers believed He was the Christ, or Messiah. And finally, both Pliny and Lucian indicate that Christians worshipped Jesus as God!
I am pretty sure contemporary scholarship establishes that there was a Jesus. Stories around him with miracles were constructed after his death. This person thought the end times was coming within the next 100 years too. Bart Ehrman is a good source to look to.
The existence of Jesus is a mainstream historical view. To get an introduction to this, read Bart Ehrman's "Did Jesus Exist?"
The idea of the existence of Jesus being a pure myth is an idea held by a small minority of people, and especially critical scholars (they rely on evidence, which strongly supports his existence, so it makes sense that very few do deny his existence).
Of course, the miracles surrounding him are just mythology and folklore and nothing more.
So what evidence do these critical scholars give for their reason to believe that there was an actual Christ which the text are about. I have studied the subject in great detail and what I find is that there is NO historical evidence and there are problems with the Christian texts which make them historically unreliable and since they are the only thing written about this figure it would be unrealistic to conclude that there was a Christ. Since the Christian religion became part of the Medieval times military powers, this created a powerful and wealthy force to push Christianity on the world population. Now the Christian religion is too big for the mainstream to debunk without a huge negative impact so the majority steers clear of the subject.
So what evidence do these critical scholars give for their reason to believe that there was an actual Christ which the text are about.
If you want to know, then try to study scholarship and research.
I have studied the subject in great detail and what I find is that there is NO historical evidence and there are problems with the Christian texts which make them historically unreliable and since they are the only thing written about this figure it would be unrealistic to conclude that there was a Christ.
There are tons of books and studies written on the subject, it doesn't seem you assessed the alternative side and just automatically draw to the Christ myth theory.
The christian texts being unreliable in many respects is a faulty way to conclude that Jesus did not exist. While contemporary scholarship doubts much of the authenticity of the texts, there are also a couple universally accepted events relating to Jesus. Critical analysis (Historian criteria) of the Christian texts are important for historians and scholars to determine the true events, and have already largely concluded that Jesus existence is one thing that can be derived from this.
After all, there is a need to separate the original and forged parts of historical texts, instead of denying all of its elements altogether.
Since the Christian religion became part of the Medieval times military powers, this created a powerful and wealthy force to push Christianity on the world population. Now the Christian religion is too big for the mainstream to debunk without a huge negative impact so the majority steers clear of the subject.
What do you mean? There are many new testament critics and research that doubts the authenticity of the gospels and similar works. With Jesus, just because he may have existed doesn't automatically verify Christianity. Christianity is based on God and the supernatural and so cannot be accurately demonstrated historically.
