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I don't doubt that you could establish some vague link between individual Jews or Christians or the cultures or communities they lived in and some of the values we hold in the West.
But that cuts both ways. By the same token, all distasteful qualities of Western civilization can be traced back to Judeo-Christianity.
I mean, Judeo-Christianity is a huge concept that spans throughout much of recorded history. I don't think there are many things or people on this planet entirely free of the influence of Judeo-Christianity. So it's easy to make and support claims like "Judeo-Christianity was central to the American Civil Rights movement;" it's also easy to make and support claims like "Judeo-Christianity was central to the opposition of the American Civil Rights movement." You can credit Christianity for helping free slaves and grant them equal rights, but if you do that you also have to credit Christianity with the capture and ownership of those slaves in the first place.
So all qualities of Western civilization, good or bad, can be traced back to Judeo-Christianity.
Yes, I've seen that chart some guy on SA Photoshopped together too. Are you under the impression that the sole legacy of Judeo-Christian literature and thought began and ended with the Crusades?
I've heard Dinesh D'Sousa make the point that our civilization is supported by two pillars: Jerusalem and Athens. I agree with him that our culture was primarily shaped by Judeo-Christian and Grecco-Roman influence, and I think I also agree with you perhaps the latter more so. But what the proud theists who like to point this out fail to realize is that a pillar holds up everything, not just the good stuff. If one wants to claim that Christianity has shaped America's morality, for example, that's fine and I'd agree, but "morality" includes moral and immoral actions, both.
Perhaps things like Western charity can be traced back to our Judeo-Christian roots. So too, perhaps, can our sometimes quite barbaric, tribal violence.
If one wants to claim that Christianity has shaped America's morality, for example, that's fine and I'd agree, but "morality" includes moral and immoral actions, both.
I haven't disputed this; that's just not what the debate's about.
Jesus, dude, you're really obsessed with me, aren't you?
a) I considered formatting my post as a clarification, but decided against it as my post was disputing a part of the post that it was responding to. It wasn't irrelevant.
b) Even if it had been irrelevant and I were a hypocrite, that would not invalidate the sentiment that it should generally be avoided and would not be be adequate justification for you to carry on.
For real, I don't want to have to ban you from every debate I start, especially since you seem to occasionally contribute something more than petty spite (as in your original post above), but if you keep doing this I might have to. Is this the way you communicate with people in real life, with the constant heavy-handed attempts at sarcasm and refusal to even feign respect for opposing ideas? Are you autistic or something? Can you not see how this would not endear you to people?
A'ight. I mean, I guess I have to so long as you insist on being abhorrent. But if it's any consolation, I wish I didn't; I kinda would've liked to have a serious conversation about democracy with you. I like it when people have things worth saying!
And if it's true, it renders this debate rather, how I say... shoot-yourself-in-the-foot-ish(?), in my opinion. If all qualities of western civilian (good and bad) can be traced back to Christianity that's nothing for Christianity to be proud of or draw attention to.
if it's true, it renders this debate rather, how I say... shoot-yourself-in-the-foot-ish(?)
I see it more as recognizing of nuance. The emphasis of this debate is on the positive aspects of society, more of which I think can be traced back to Judeo-Christianity than to Greco-Roman or enlightenment influences. It's a matter of degree. It doesn't need to be so absolute as "Christianity is evil," which is how a lot of atheists on this site like to put it.
Certainly ancient Greece and Rome were the wellspring of the West, but that's what the "redeeming" part's for. From Greco-Roman society we mostly inherit our more distasteful attributes: political realism, careerism, our fetishization of democracy. The legacy of Judeo-Christianity, on the other hand, more resembles our virtues: the beauty and necessity of sacrifice; devoutness (as opposed to the plundered, superficial, public religiosity of the Romans); equality under the law; common, universal morality; human rights and inherent value. These things either weren't present or were regarded as high-minded mental masturbation except by scholars in Greco-Roman society.
And furthermore, I'm gonna ask again that if you don't plan to make relevant attacks (or contain them to a single post), use the "clarify" button. I like for the debate statistics to reflect the reality.
Democracy is the legitimization of mob rule. And, depending on the population, it could essentially be theocracy. Or any number of things much, much worse.
