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I don't believe a citizen is "given" anything except a basic education, clean water to drink and some roads to travel on. (Of course, I didn't list everything, but you get my drift). Yes, we have a safety net for those who don't or can't make it on their own. I guess you could call that a "gift".
Beyond that, in this great country of ours, a young person can write his OWN life script.. What greater gift is there?
To varying degrees, Americans have a fair deal for the most part. If you look at my debate about what people are barred from and compelled to, you will find that people don’t want to pay taxes and want to smoke pot. If these perceived injustices are the first things that come to people’s minds, then we are likely getting a generally fair deal
Private concerns likely vary to a much greater extent. General crime in the US is fairly high. It’s not fair to be a victim of a crime.
There is no fair deal. American culture is predicated upon the mass indoctrination of its citizens into political, religious and economic ideology.
In mainstream American culture, critical thinkers are under perpetual attack. In fact, many of your own attacks against myself and other users illustrate this fact poignantly. The ego of Americans is purposefully overfed to the point of obesity, precisely because it is necessary in order to sell certain products. Unfortunately, one of the side effects is that many of you are not prepared to be reasoned with, and when your belief structure is challenged in a critical manner, you become emotionally unstable.
Come on Nom. Give up the goodies. What makes Britain superior to say...a dead cat that stuck its head in a container and couldn't get out and now smells like 5 year old stink bait?
Like most of Noms rantings this claim has to taken with a grain of salt , remember this is the guy who said Karl Mark the loafer who never did a days work in his life was actually a “ tireless worker “ and friend of the working classes
Then, your contention is that citizens are not given a 'fair' opportunity to a decent/good life in America?
A "decent/good" life is a subjective premise because it depends completely upon what you compare it to. Since it is subjective I cannot debunk it as false.
You don’t actually know anything about American culture.
critical thinkers are under perpetual attack
It is the nature of critical thinking to be critical and to be criticized. It is the irrational, emotional, intellectual coward that demands to have their ideas protected. They create safe spaces and physically assault critical thinkers who disagree. These people are few and fringe and on the left of the American political spectrum.
The ego of Americans is purposefully overfed
You imply puppets without a puppet master. Whose pulling the strings Nom? It’s always fun when you go down this particular rabbit hole.
one of the side effects is that many of you are not prepared to be reasoned with
He said to the mirror and all his alt accounts. It’s wired that you never tire of the facade.
I think you're overreacting. How exactly are critical thinkers under attack? I'll remind you, someone who is defending what they believe is not attacking anyone.
That's odd, seeing we are every race, culture, religion etc on Earth and can't agree on basically anything as a group...
That's odd, seeing as Americans agree on guns, capitalism, democracy, liberty, free speech, separation of church and state and the idea that America is the "greatest" country on Earth.
Also odd is your belief that, since you are "every race culture and religion" (applies to most countries), this means you have not been indoctrinated into a particular way of thinking, since America has only ever elected white Christian male leaders, with only a single exception in 300 years. How does only electing white Christian male leaders factor into your belief that there is equal representation of different beliefs in America?
That's odd, seeing as Americans agree on guns, capitalism, democracy, liberty, free speech, separation of church and state and the idea that America is the "greatest" country on Earth.
Americans do not agree on any of those topics. I would have thought that was rather obvious
That's odd, seeing as Americans agree on guns, capitalism, democracy, liberty, free speech, separation of church and state and the idea that America is the "greatest" country on Earth
There are more Americans who do not believe any of those things than there are Brits in Britain.
Also odd is your belief that, since you are "every race culture and religion" (applies to most countries
Name any country as culturally diverse as the United States of America. There are fringe minority groups here with enough numbers to create fairly large countries.
The ego of Americans is purposefully overfed to the point of obesity
It is indeed the truth. In a capitalist society like ours you can easily obtain plenty to eat.
Unfortunately, one of the side effects is that many of you are not prepared to be reasoned with
We reason well just not with deranged, uneducated corkadoodles. Why on Earth would we listen to people from countries that are subordinate to ours in almost every category including economics?
and when your belief structure is challenged in a critical manner, you become emotionally unstable.
We use you for entertainment. You are the only emotional person I see on the entire site.
American culture is predicated upon the mass indoctrination of its citizens into political, religious and economic ideology
I don't think so. Your religious ideology is typically a result of familial tradition and teaching. You are most likely to keep whatever religious affiliation you parents taught you. Economic ideology is again just upbringing, way of life, how you interact with society. It's natural and self repeating, requiring no influence outside of what's already there. Not the sort of conspiracy-run indoctrination you seem to imply.
Critical thinkers aren't under attack for being outside the norm, they're disagreed with or not on a case by case basis. 'critical thinkers' wouldn't even be a reliable label to discriminate on, anyone can take half assed or uninformed positions on anything to disqualify them from the term.
I don't think so. Your religious ideology is typically a result of familial tradition and teaching. You are most likely to keep whatever religious affiliation you parents taught you.
I fully agree with you, but at the same time this doesn't mean that non-religious individuals/families aren't being encouraged into religion. You have to remember that parents are not the only influence throughout a child's formative years. Indeed, even my own anecdotal experience in Britain illustrates this, since neither of my parents encouraged me to become religious, yet the first two schools I attended did precisely that, through a continued process of normalisation and repetition. Hence, your point and my own are not mutually exclusive. They are both true.
Economic ideology is again just upbringing, way of life, how you interact with society.
Forgive me, but one would either have to be either naive or American (i.e. inside the bubble) to believe this. Consider the general American attitude toward communism and/or socialism to be a particularly pertinent example. It is not coincidence that these words invoke negative thought patterns in Americans. It is because Americans lived through 70 years of being bombarded with Cold War propaganda. Most Americans see the world through the paradigm of consumer capitalism and that is a direct result of mass indoctrination. It isn't necessarily intentional (not any longer at least), but that nevertheless does not affect the measurable accuracy of the claim.
Indeed, your own comments about the way religion is passed down from one generation to the next would also have to apply to parental politico-economic beliefs.
Critical thinkers aren't under attack for being outside the norm, they're disagreed with or not on a case by case basis.
Again, this is extremely naive and contrary to the established facts. There is much academic research to support the belief that people gravitate towards those opinions they already agree with, to the point that they actively avoid being confronted with opposing views. If you force a country of people who have been indoctrinated into consumer capitalism to listen to academics who are trying to explain why capitalism is unsustainable and self-contradictory then what exactly do you expect is going to happen? Do you think Americans are going to nonchalantly throw away decades worth of political bias overnight just so they can give these opinions a fair trial? Please.
To prove how naive this view is, one needs look no further than the American climate change "debate". The people best qualified to resolve the issue are being ignored by a massive demographic which cannot overcome its own bias long enough to understand how one-sided the facts are.
Forgive me, but one would either have to be either naive or American (i.e. inside the bubble) to believe this. Consider the general American attitude toward communism and/or socialism to be a particularly pertinent example. It is not coincidence that these words invoke negative thought patterns in Americans. It is because Americans lived through 70 years of being bombarded with Cold War propaganda. Most Americans see the world through the paradigm of consumer capitalism and that is a direct result of mass indoctrination.
You have to define your terms. Based on your use of the term "Democratic Socialism", while describing "Social Democracy", it is not at all clear you understand what the original intent of 'Socialism' was/is
Citizens are not given a "fair deal" in the U.S., nor should they. If we were, that would change what the U.S. is. We dedicated 2 terribly-executed wars in order to fight the spread of communism, and now it's at our front door because of idiot college students that think if we have free healthcare and the wealth is spread out equally, then we'll be happier than Denmark. People who say "no, but they should", rethink your position and consider the consequences.
Then, do you think citizens are not given a 'fair' opportunity to forge for themselves a decent/good life in America?
No, not at all. Some are born poor, some are born rich. Why should we? So people that live off of unemployment checks and refuse to work can become as rich as the next Bill Gates?
I think there may be a miscommunication here. To be clear, my position is:
"The way the American 'game' is set up, no matter where one starts in life, as long as they are a citizen, they are provided a reasonable opportunity to achieve 'success'--i.e. financially, career interest, home owner, ect. ect. Then, it is up to the individual to rise or fall based upon their own merit & choices"
Note: This only applies to healthy citizens, the case may be quite different for those with disabilities, extreme childhood trauma, ect. ect. (other extenuating circumstances)
I think my position is pretty clear, but I'll state it as well:
"Not every American is given a fair chance because of where they are born, who they are born to, how poor or rich they are, etc., but every citizen is able to succeed based on their decisions financially and career-wise.
As for parents & environment one is raised in, I couldn't agree more--one's parents is essentially analogous to an arranged marriage, in the sense that they were not chosen, but they are stuck with them; like it or not.
Now, it seems you are promoting a view such as 'Jackie Robbins could play baseball, though it is certainly not fair'. Do you think this roughly sums up your view well?
Well, sort of. With the Jackie Robinson example, he was certainly not given a fair chance considering he was a black man trying to play baseball when America was actually racist in late-1940s America. But, Robinson was able to play by working hard to prove his worth. My view of America is that not everyone is given a fair chance, and that everyone has to work hard to prove his or her worth, no matter color, gender, or sexual preference.
My view of America is that not everyone is given a fair chance, and that everyone has to work hard to prove his or her worth, no matter color, gender, or sexual preference.
If everyone has to work hard to prove their worth regardless of race, sex, orientation, ect., and has that opportunity; do you deem it 'unfair' as it is perceived to be 'very difficult', or is there a different reason(s)?
do you deem it 'unfair' as it is perceived to be 'very difficult'
The deal you are given at birth is either at an advantage or a disadvantage. Choices you make may or may not be held to the circumstances of your starting point. These two things, I believe, are not connected. (That being your starting point and your choices afterward). Going back to the Jackie Robinson example, yes he chose to play baseball and he chose to work hard to get to the MLB. But his choice to play baseball wasn't influenced by his race; Jackie Robinson never said as a child "I want to play baseball right now because America is racist."
The deal you are given at birth is either at an advantage or a disadvantage. Choices you make may or may not be held to the circumstances of your starting point. These two things, I believe, are not connected. (That being your starting point and your choices afterward).
Why would one necessarily have to start at the same starting point to be given a 'fair deal'?
Why would one necessarily have to start at the same starting point to be given a 'fair deal'?
What is a fair deal in your eyes? In my opinion, a fair deal is where everyone has the same opportunity to do whatever they want and achieve subjective success. Now, if someone's opinion of success is living off of welfare for their entire life, that's not the same as someone who sees success as building a restaurant monopoly.
same starting point
How could it be fair if one person is rich and one is poor? Wouldn't it be easier for the rich person to do what they wanted than the poor person?
Every person has a reasonable opportunity to achieve success (i.e. rise & fall based on their own merits--like the world of sports, essentially)
In my opinion, a fair deal is where everyone has the same opportunity to do whatever they want and achieve subjective success.
Is the "same" opportunity even possible to achieve? If not, how is that the countries fault? I agree things could be more 'fair'; although, I think things are already 'fair' enough to reach one's goals (if they have any goals)
How could it be fair if one person is rich and one is poor?
Why would everyone have to start out at the exact same monetary resources in order to be given a reasonable opportunity at success? Do you not believe there are other salient factors?
Wouldn't it be easier for the rich person to do what they wanted than the poor person?
Potentially yes; However, this would just mean that the 'rich' person was given a very 'fair' deal, not necessarily that the 'poor' person was not afforded a 'fair' deal
Every person has a reasonable opportunity to achieve success
Ah, okay so our view of a fair deal is the same
Is the "same" opportunity even possible to achieve?
No, it's not possible, I think. If America were to keep its capitalistic values, the same opportunity isn't possible.
If not, how is that the countries fault?
Technically you could argue that it's the United States' fault for being a capitalistic country. However, I won't step into that minefield.
Why would everyone have to start out at the exact same monetary resources in order to be given a reasonable opportunity at success?
Isn't that what every success story is? "insert name here broke through the insert barrier here to reach his goal of insert ambition here." There have been plenty of people who have had more "monetary resources" who were able to do something much more easily than someone with less "monetary resources".
Do you not believe there are other salient factors?
Yes, of course I believe there are other factors. Things like race and age can put people in a disadvantage, but people who want to do what they want to do will find a way to break through the barrier. Just look at Barrack Obama (terrible example for a conservative) or Jackie Robinson.
However, this would mean that the 'rich' person was given a very 'fair' deal
I wouldn't say that, since the definition of fair is "in accordance with the rules or standards; legitimate". I wouldn't say the rich person was afforded a legitimate deal because he was born rich.
sn't that what every success story is? "insert name here broke through the insert barrier here to reach his goal of insert ambition here." There have been plenty of people who have had more "monetary resources" who were able to do something much more easily than someone with less "monetary resources".
No, I'll give two reason:
(1) Not all success is monetary success
(2) The 'rich'/privileged person can still fall--then, in order to make something of themselves required independent action toward success
I wouldn't say that, since the definition of fair is "in accordance with the rules or standards; legitimate". I wouldn't say the rich person was afforded a legitimate deal because he was born rich.
Simply because one is born rich does not mean they will stay rich nor achieve anything independently in their life. If they want to become a Doctor (M.D.), this will require independent work.
The 'rich'/privileged person can still fall--then, in order to make something of themselves required independent action toward success
Yes, of course. Like I said before, one's starting point and one's choices are not related. If a rich kid tries to make a blockbuster film and ends up on the street, they'll have to work back to where they were before.
Simple because one is born rich does not mean they will stay rich nor achieve anything independently
Right. But, like I said in the previous argument, I would not say the rich people were given a legitimate or fair deal. I would say they were given an advantage at birth. Not to say they'll attempt to abuse their wealth or power and end up losing it, obviously.
AMERICANS ISNT GIVEN A FAIR DEAL BECAUSE YOU DONT HAVE UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE LIKE THE REST OF THE DEVELOPED WORLD AND NO FREE COLLAGE AND YOU GET TAXED ON EVERYTHING LIKE FOOD AND CORPORATIONS CONTROL YOUR DEMOCRACY
Fuck no. Rapists and dv offenders have parental rights, we are losing religious liberty, torture, the death penalty, and abortion are legal, people are DYING without healthcare, and capitalists are hijacking the Democratic Party.
Yeah, if you pick the right major in college. Go any other route then no not really. Skilled labor is no longer valued. Sitting at a computer trying to make 4 hours of work stretch 8 hours on some days can land you the jackpot and your boss doing even less in many cases makes buckets more than you do and probably has other people doing his work. If this offends then go work a 12 hour outdoor labor or skilled labor day for 1/3 or less pay and say you aren't clinging to that degree or Microsoft Office training like a life raft and if you do happen to like the work you wont do it for that pay. Your not alone, no one wants those jobs anymore unless they just love labor which thankfully some do otherwise you would have to wait a week just for an oil change. And all labor comes with the title "Too dumb for school" nowdays even though some simply didn't want to sit on their ass for another 4 yrs or more. Over half of those college courses you went into debt for to get that piece of paper that says you qualify for more money will never be used at work. Also good luck with all the entry level jobs requiring a degree and experience. Bet someone out there will give you crap pay just so you can get that experience after busting your ass in classes for 4 years and being more than capable of doing the job without experience. Same for skilled labor, skill needed, skill specific training not offered, 3 to 5 months to finally find someone instead of training someone who already has skills in that field and getting someone right away. Most skilled laborors are considered middle class but live worse than lower class once the government assistance kicks in because middle doesn't qualify. If your lower class the world of benefits is yours nowdays but your still not living great but hey you may not even have to work. Also less than 1% of the population accounts for almost half of the countries combined income. Still fuckin love my U.S. of A till death though.
Yeah, if you pick the right major in college. Go any other route then no not really. Skilled labor is no longer valued.
This is wrong. In fact, most College majors do not do one much of anything in the Job Market, while Trades are highly valuable and will earn one a Middle-Class income & does not cost much at all to earn qualifications.