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Debate Info

21
32
Agree Disagree
Debate Score:53
Arguments:55
Total Votes:56
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 Agree (19)
 
 Disagree (25)

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RationalMad(8) pic



Atheism is as illogical as theism in regards to the origin of everything

Atheism believes everything came from nothing.

Theism believes everything came from god, and that god came from nothing.

Atheism defies theism by saying it is foolish to believe in god because nothing created god but then it is equally foolish to believe in atheism because it says nothing created the universe.

Agree

Side Score: 21
VS.

Disagree

Side Score: 32
2 points

The only thing that's logical to me is that something can't come from nothing - and if the universe did come from nothing, this just means that the nothing wasn't nothing.

Side: Agree
1 point

It would take 6 Billion light years to cross the largest "structure" we have found in the Universe. That is only ONE of the millions (billions?) of "structures" that we have discovered. "GOD" created all this?? For WHAT? If he had to rest after six days of "His great work" to create the Earth, he must have worked himself to death by now!

No, we don't YET know everything about how the universe was "created". but it wasn't by some "godly entity"!

"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is, than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." Carl Sagan

It is the experience of mystery, even if mixed with fear, that engendered religion." A. Einstein

Side: Agree
1 point

""Theism believes everything came from god, and that god came from nothing.""

Straw Man. Theism does not claim that God came from nothing .

God has always existed

Side: Agree
Cartman(18192) Disputed
2 points

Same thing.

Side: Disagree
db000569(31) Disputed
1 point

For something to always have existed is impossible, and if that is how it works then does it actually exist because if so its gotta be made of something so what's it made of, nothing?

Side: Disagree
1 point

"""Atheism is as illogical as theism in regards to the origin of everything""///

Argument to Moderation Fallacy

Side: Agree
1 point

Saying that two things are illogical isn't making the argument that the answer must lie in the middle.

So that's a bit of a fallacy fallacy.

Side: Disagree
1 point

...........................

..........................

Who wants to debate this one on one ?

Side: Agree
IAmSparticus(1516) Clarified
1 point

Depends, are you going to run away this time without forming an argument?

Side: Agree
1 point

To the person who created this debate, I got to tell you......try to get a brain donor. You are comparing a world view based on an epistemic vacuum, with a worldview based on the validity of logic. You're just an idiot like any atheist

Side: Agree
IAmSparticus(1516) Clarified
1 point

It really shouldn't be difficult to defend and substantiate that claim.

Yet you've "tried" so many times..

Side: Agree
Delvis(221) Clarified
1 point

why are you still talking ? You were shown irrelevant. Issues in bed ?

Side: Agree
1 point

""""Atheism is as illogical as theism in regards to the origin of everything"""////

Argument to the Beard Fallacy. You don't look good trying to be a fence sitter. You just showed that you dont understand logic

Side: Agree
Cartman(18192) Disputed
1 point

Why are you on the agree side if it is a fallacy?

Side: Disagree
4 points

Atheists don't necessarily believe everything came from nothing. I would actually say that most believe that we, as humans, simply do not have the answer to that question as of now, but one day, we might. Claiming that you simply do not know the answer to a question just yet, rather than to assume an answer for which there is no such supporting evidence, to me, is much more rational.

Side: Disagree
3 points

Theism is slightly more illogical because it adds an extra step.

Side: Disagree
1 point

Atheism defies theism by saying it is foolish to believe in god because nothing created god but then it is equally foolish to believe in atheism because it says nothing created the universe.

Atheists do not necessarily believe "something came from nothing". Any ideas about the universes origins are not staples of atheism. Atheism itself is not intrisically scientific either, it is possible to be very anti science and still an atheist. The only things an atheists necessarily believes in is that they don't believe in a god.

As for the strawman of "something from nothing" I have seen many religious arguments butcher quotes from physicists such as Paul Davies on the subject.

We do not know what happened before the big bang and to say nothing was there before is an assumption. It has been posited many times that perhaps the universe is eternal and in different forms, "nothing" is just a concept. In fact a competing theory regarding the big bang posits this idea that the universe was there before the big bang just in a different form.

The idea that many oppose (not just Atheists) is when someone claims that "everything needs a X (a creator for instance) except for a Y (insert god here)" because it is the fallacy of special pleading.

Side: Disagree
1 point

As an atheist I don't believe that something came from nothing I believe that matter, antimatter, energy and dark energy have always existed and are eternal. The universe and all that is in it was created by the natural properties of these things. These actions and reactions we can see actually occur in our world on a smaller scale in a smaller time frame. We know that matter and energy change but never fail to exist. This is strong evidence that it is eternal. The idea of a God as the creator begs the question how did an intelligence with that level of power come into existence? Then there is the question if this entity was eternal what prompted a need to create since it had been eternally content prior to the event. Mankind may not have all of the answers but a god creating everything is not a logical option just a cop out.

Side: Disagree

No its common sense. Atheism does not make any claims. Not that the universe came from nothing. Atheism is simply disbelieving in gods which is completely logical.

Side: Disagree
Delvis(221) Disputed
1 point

""""No its common sense. Atheism does not make any claims. Not that the universe came from nothing. Atheism is simply disbelieving in gods which is completely logical.""////

And yet look at all those claims you moron

Side: Agree
1 point

Except he didn't mention anything that atheism claims.

Side: Disagree
AveSatanas(4443) Disputed
1 point

They're not the claims that atheism makes though you idiot. .

Side: Disagree
1 point

Well, us atheists do not disbelieve in sky gods or other theistic dogma just because we think it is "...foolish to believe in god because nothing created god" as you claim.

We have many more reasons than just that. Despite the obvious one, "If god created us, then who created the creator?" we also just know there has never ever been one scintilla of proof for god. In fact, all things considered, the idea seems downright preposterous. Never has anybody proven even a hint of ANY god; never has anybody shown that prayer works; never has anyone shown us that there is a supernatural being who listens to their prayers, let alone answers them.

Why? If millions of people have been spouting off about the existence of a sky god who loves them (LOL) and listens to them and can do ANYTHING and knows EVERYTHING, then why not an iota of evidence for this? After thousands of years?

We believe that belief in god and the power of prayer and the existence of physically-resurrected Palestinian carpenters who died 20 centuries ago is all delusion. A coping mechanism. An undesirable by-product of the human's mind obsession with seeking patterns and causes in life--even when there are none.

As far as the idea of the Universe being created from nothing being absurd. Well, it only seems that way to believers in god, as well as those who don't know a whole lot about physics and Cosmology. The Big Bang did not necessarily explode into existence from a void. Fro nothing. There are several possibilities here. One of them is that the current Universe is just the latest that followed in a series of Big Bangs. We have the Multi-Verse theory, that says we are but just one of many. We have the "holographic" theory that postulates what we experience here and now in this 3D world may be just a sort of holograph or "residual image" a "shadow" of a multi-dimensional and more complex Universe. (Think of Plato's old "men i the cave with the fire and the shadows" parable.)

True. We do not know what happened or existed before the Big Bang some 13.7 BYA. But we CAN tell you step-by-step what happened from a billionth of a second AFTER it, all the way up until now. How atoms and molecules formed, how stars were born, how accretion and gravity formed planets and solar systems. We can tell you the chemical elements involved and what the stars are made of and how old they are and what is happening to them. We can explain what neutron stars; black holes; brown dwarfs; red giants; Quasars; Supernovas; nebulae; WIMPS; and MACHOS are. And give you mathematical equations that detail the mechanics involved in all these cosmic entities.

As far as life here on earth we can show you a step by step process for evolution. How we primates climbed from the Primordial ooze onto land and then evolved from amphibian to reptile to mammal to primate. We have tens of thousands pof transitional fossils that show this; we have DNA evidence. We can show you examples of modern day evolution! We can show you physical traits in our bodies and in the bodies of other species that prove they and we were not perfectly designed but rather are just the latest model in the long line of the process of Selective Inheritance and Evolution. The Ascent of Man.

Evolution has NEVER been successfully challenged. Any attacks or questions about it have been met and overcome.With flying colors. Not ONE fossil has ever been discovered in a any other strata of Earth that Evolution postulates it should be in, according to its Time frames and epoch history. ALL alternative ideas to Evo, like Genesis type Creation, or Irreducible Complexity that the ID folks try to use. have been thoroughly debunked by us. Many times. I know of NO credible professional biologist who does NOT believe in Evolution.

Just as I know not ONE Astronomer or Cosmologist who is a Theist. The more educated we are the less we find believers in sky gods. The ratio is perfectly diametric.

Why?

LOL. You know why. Religion is for the weak and the dull.Those who are afraid to meet life on its own terms and need their adult version of their invisible childhood friends. We have ALL those proofs and experiments and math equations and fossils and observations and pictures and DNA I mentioned.

What do the Religious have? As far as proving their gods? Or even giving is a SINGLE BIT of EVIDENCE for their gods?

Nothing. Nada. Zilch. The big Goose Egg.

All they can do is two things. JUST TWO!!! Over and Over.

Ad Nauseum.

LOL.

They either engage in terrible and obtuse circular logic, i.e. "It is true because my bible tells me so!"...or, they smugly say. "You CAN'T prove there IS no god!"

I find this pathetic.

Hey! Assholes! You can't prove I do not have one of Satan's minions living i my garage who is invisible to all but me but who has helped empower me and mad me be smart and rich and have a gorgeous girlfriend and a house in Bloomfield Hills and a PhD on the way.

Prove otherwise!!

See? You cannot. Despite how absrud my claim sounds I have just as much evidence for it as you do for your sky gods.

I can also show oyu how your holy book oyu call a bible is filled with lies and contradictions. As well as evil and loathsome passages. I can prove to you how much of the bible has been DISPROVED.

Exodus? Never happened.

Moses did not write the Torah.

Jesus was a bastard son of Mary and a Roman soldier.

Genesis was never meant to be taken literal.

JC was not born on Christmas day. Not even close to it.

There was no virgin birth. MOST religions have one in their dogma. Some of them PRE-DATE Christianity. So how can the biblical account be true?

Oh..that's right. It's not.

These are SOME of the myriad reasons us atheists do NOT believe in sky gods. And some of the reasons that our system of belief in science and logic is so very much superior.

Thank you---please come again!!

LOL

Side: Disagree
Saintnow(3684) Disputed
1 point

Possibilities are hypothesis, and not theories. All of your "step by step" account of billions of years moment by moment from "the big bang" is hypothesis. There is no scientific explanation for how matter came into existence, only observations about what causes it to appear as it is, and what fields, forces and particles continue causing it to appear.

Science is fascinating when you stick to science, and it's funny when atheistic scientist stumble or march into discoveries which indicate matter cannot consist without a force causing it to consist, and that force must be immaterial (the closest thing to that force, I guess, would be a photon which is difficult to classify as being a particle or being a wave; and coincidentally? the Bible says the first thing God created after He created in the universe after creating the universe was LIGHT)......and when the science starts getting to that point, then they jump away from God into an impersonal and mindless force because their beliefs demand rejection of a caring and personal God........then they get all kinds of "theories" which are nothing more than hypothesis of parallel universes, oscillating universes with infinite number of big bangs over infinite amounts of time, UFO's moving through wormholes, time warps, all kinds of supernatural naturalism which has to be believed and cannot be proven by science. When that approach is taken, the conclusions become of existence being entirely illusory, meaningless, worthless result of chaos giving rise to an accidental appearance of a world which operates in laws of physics.

Keep up the good work in science. I really hope the bee project is successful and I hope you make lots of awesome discoveries and applications for science.

Side: Agree
minimurph83(194) Disputed
1 point

the Bible says the first thing God created after He created in the universe after creating the universe was LIGHT)...... So god create the universe in the dark then? wow!!!!

how amazing is that! so remind me again what the bible says about the age of the earth? about 6 thousand years old? only a few billion years out.

you question science but fail to question your own faith and then nonsense you read.

Side: Disagree
Saintnow(3684) Disputed
1 point

Sorry again for reading your profanities, I'll try not to do that any more.

Side: Agree
Delvis(221) Disputed
0 points

""""If god created us, then who created the creator?"""////

Thats a stupid question, baba. If God needed a creator, then it wouldn't be God, now would it !

Side: Agree
Cartman(18192) Disputed
1 point

If God doesn't need a creator, the universe doesn't need a creator. It is simple. The claim that everything needs a creator is obviously false because you don't think that God needs a creator. You don't believe in the premise that you use to demonstrate God.

Side: Disagree
1 point

you need to educate yourself. look into quantum mechanics and you will see something coming from nothing is quite possible as "nothing" as you put it is unstable and photons come into existence sporadically. the real question should be why does this happen not if this is possible, that much we already know is true.

Side: Disagree
Saintnow(3684) Disputed
1 point

I did a fast web search and could not find any statements from any physicists who believe photons come into existence sporadically. All of the physicists I saw speak of photons as moving from or being absorbed by electrons when electrons move to higher or lower energy states, all in line with the second law of thermodynamics....so photons are either absorbed or released by other particles, and they behave at times like waves or like particles.

"something coming from nothing" is not observed. Things moving from one state to another is observable. When you speak of photons coming into existence sporadically, you must be speaking of them appearing when you don't know exactly where they were before they appeared to be where you could detect them. I see nobody, physicist or hobbyist in physics like myself, saying that they "come into existence sporadically". Can you provide a reference source where I can read from a physicist who believes photons actually come into existence sporadically?

I guess Hawkins changed his opinion, but around ten years ago he was talking a lot of string theories and saying that matter's consistency is a fluke, something caused immaterial particles to congeal into particles because by all appearances in quantum science, it is not possible for all of the subatomic particles to hold themselves together in form of matter, and they all had to come from energy which was not material.

It's kinda funny to me how "the great minds of science" come so close to saying "in the beginning, God created....", but then when they realize where their observations are leading, they recant that line of thinking and search for other ways to explain the existence of matter.

So please, humor me, and show me where I can find a physicist stating that photons come into existence sporadically. All I have been able to find is physicists explaining how photons move around in varying energy levels of electromagnetism....all in line with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, none saying that anything can be created at any time (of course, that excludes the beginning of creation which would be God, but we don't want to go there, do we?)

Side: Agree
1 point

"Atheism believes everything came from nothing."

I disagree. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a creator entity. It is that simple.

Further, most atheists (most people for that matter) recognize that by definition something does not emerge from nothing.

( When scientists speak of something from nothing they are not talking about a literal 'nothing'.)

Side: Disagree
Saintnow(3684) Disputed
1 point

It's true that many atheists seem unable to understand there own beliefs. Everything is either eternal or it came from nothing in atheistic belief, and of course the universe in atheism must be a living thing or life emerged out of non life. Any of these concepts are self-defeating, which is the delusional hope of atheists....to unexist in death, or at least believe they can't end up in Hell forever.r

Side: Agree
1 point

No because flying spaghetti monster gdhkwjhdgkagsyergtklywagsdkyewqgdkuwgeauydgqwkuefdkyewfdiutwqefdiuqwefdiuewfdiwueqfd

Side: Disagree
1 point

Nope

1) Atheism itself doesn't really need to care about where everything came from. Just because religion cares and has it's explanation doesn't mean atheism has to care or have any explanation.

2) Science, which is not the same thing as atheism, has the big bang theory. I'm sure you won't agree with it. But the big bang theory itself doesn't mean all came from nothing. It came from a singularity. There are possibilities that singularity was the opposite side of an enormous black hole or something we don't understand yet. Not knowing yet does not negate it.

3) In order for atheism to equal the illogic of theism it would have to to say instead of a bearded man magically making everything appear through being built of his own power it would have to say an enormous beaver did it. What, a beaver seem illogical? That's still not as illogical as a magical bearded man.

Side: Disagree
1 point

This is a straw man argument. God by definition is infinite, not confined by time, space, or matter, not dependent on time, space, or matter. By implying that god came from nothing, you are creating a straw man god who is not God. If you are going to argue that God did not create all things, you have to argue against God who is 1) eternal 2)omniscient 3) omnipresent 4) omnipotent. By definition, God is all of these things combined and to imply that He came from nothing is refusing to acknowledge the definition of God in your argument, and your whole argument is then nothing but a straw man no matter how many pieces of straw you insert as support.

Side: Disagree
1 point

Atheism defies theism by saying it is foolish to believe in god because nothing created god but then it is equally foolish to believe in atheism because it says

Again, this is just adding another straw to the straw man set up in the beginning.....God created all things, He is not created, He is the Creator. Something cannot come from nothing. God is not a thing, He is the Creator of all things. If you say there is no God, then where did the universe come from? Did it come from nothing, or is it eternal?

When you create a straw man, such as you are doing implying your straw man is God when your straw man does not fit the definition of God, you have to explain the existence of matter, and such efforts give rise to all kinds of "theories" which are in reality nothing more than hypothesis which people who reject the idea of being ruled by God must cling to in order to maintain a resemblance of sanity.

Side: Disagree