CreateDebate is a social debate community built around ideas, discussion and democracy.
If this is your first time checking out a debate, here are some quick tips to help get you started:
Arguments with the highest score are displayed first.
Argument replies (both in favor and in opposition) are displayed below the original argument.
To follow along, you may find it helpful to show and hide the replies displayed below each argument.
To vote for an argument, use these icons:
You have the power to cast exactly one vote (either up or down) for each argument.
Once you vote, the icon will become grayed out and the argument's score will change.
Yes, you can change your vote.
Debate scores, side scores and tag scores are automatically calculated by an algorithm that primarily takes argument scores into account.
All scores are updated in real-time.
To learn more about the CreateDebate scoring system, check out the FAQ.
When you are ready to voice your opinion, use the Add Argument button to create an argument.
If you would like to address an existing argument, use the Support and Dispute link within that argument to create a new reply.
some people also waste their lives going to the gym, others waste their lives trying to be happy, others still waste their lives trying to answer the questions we pose of the universe. there are lots of ways you can waste you life. it is only 'using' your life when you believe there is some sort of purpose or value in whatever it is you are doing. i can agree that some are 'indoctrinated' into believing something and that people should have the ability to choose what it is they wish to believe in, as some people in some ares or religions are forced or are not allowed any other options. you can also call the beliefs and actions of others pointless, but you are jut as unfair as those who indoctrinate religion if you try to force out the beliefs of others.
some people also waste their lives going to the gym, others waste their lives trying to be happy, others still waste their lives trying to answer the questions we pose of the universe. there are lots of ways you can waste you life.
it is only 'using' your life when you believe there is some sort of purpose or value in whatever it is you are doing.
Devoting your life to a "purpose" does not necessarily feel rewarding, or outweigh a focus on improving your own life. If you've spent your entire life working for a purpose, then you've died before the alleged crops are reaped.You can conceive of just about any purpose to life, but the only tangible and measurable improvement lies in how well something makes you feel, be it making money, hobbies, spending time with loved ones, etc.
i can agree that some are 'indoctrinated' into believing something and that people should have the ability to choose what it is they wish to believe in, as some people in some ares or religions are forced or are not allowed any other options.
Well, yes. I agree with you on that.
you can also call the beliefs and actions of others pointless, but you are jut as unfair as those who indoctrinate religion if you try to force out the beliefs of others.
Honestly, I'm not slighted at the attempts of Christians to convince me to adopt their religion, or people of various ideologies doing the same.
I don't think that TheEccentric has a reason to force you into following his belief system, if that's even possible.
How would you know that the way Theists live their lives is a waste? If the way Theists live is a waste then what way of life isn't a waste? Just anything non-religious? Or perhaps a life with no rules?
If the way Theists live is a waste then what way of life isn't a waste?
A life lived the way you want to not how you're told to. I know someone who suppresses his sexual orientation due to him being indoctrinated by ignorant religious beliefs.
Just anything non-religious?
No, non-religious people can waste their lives just as much as religious people.
Or perhaps a life with no rules?
There should be only one rule for living your life that people should be forced to abide by and that is treating over living beings with respect and not harming them. Apart from that a life that is not wasted is a life that has no rules.
A life lived the way you want to not how you're told to. I know someone who suppresses his sexual orientation due to him being indoctrinated by ignorant religious beliefs.
What if you want to live the religious life? Then the way Theists live isn't a waste anymore? Even then what would make living the way you want to the correct way to live?
Also, the gays in several churches don't suppress their sexual orientation. I guess that depends on where you live.
There should be only one rule for living your life that people should be forced to abide by and that is treating over living beings with respect and not harming them.
So, what makes this correct then? Also, wouldn't the typical Christian be compelled to treat others with great respect?
If you are forcing someone to live a certain way isn't that contradicting your original statement? That a life lived the way you want to and not how you're told to is the right way to live? If I am forced to abide by a rule that I don't want to follow then would that make the forced respect rule invalid or would that disregard your original statement?
I think that you're confusing theism with religion. Theism does not necessitate purpose, or meaning in life, I can understand the confusion, since theism and religion are inextricably woven in western society, but that's a different discussion.
Who says that life has to have rules? What have rules done for you? Rules and principles will not feed you, or keep a roof over your head. It's how we interact with the immediate reality that actually matters, and that's all that we really know. Although sometimes people act according to principles and rules, the decision making process that guided them to do this was facilitated by a physical and well-oiled machine, as were the ideas themselves.
I think that you're confusing theism with religion.
I don't think I am. I was just responding to his post, which followed the debate title. I assume he spoke of Theism in sake of the debate topic.
Theism does not necessitate purpose, or meaning in life, I can understand the confusion, since theism and religion are inextricably woven in western society, but that's a different discussion.
He was hinting at a Theistic lifestyle. Which is why I gave the response I had posted.
Who says that life has to have rules? What have rules done for you?
My god declares what rules I have to abide by. Rules have helped me see my god's plans and understand his nature. At the same time this helps me develop a deeper relationship with my god.
Rules and principles will not feed you, or keep a roof over your head. It's how we interact with the immediate reality that actually matters, and that's all that we really know.
I agree with you.
Although sometimes people act according to principles and rules, the decision making process that guided them to do this was facilitated by a physical and well-oiled machine, as were the ideas themselves.
I agree. Either the machine be evolutionary mechanisms or a deity's work. Whichever suits the persons life and makes them happy.
I don't think I am. I was just responding to his post, which followed the debate title. I assume he spoke of Theism in sake of the debate topic.
He was hinting at a Theistic lifestyle. Which is why I gave the response I had posted.
He was referring to both theism and religion, and rather ironically poked fun at religion, because Buddhism is a religion (not necessarily theistic though).
My god declares what rules I have to abide by. Rules have helped me see my god's plans and understand his nature. At the same time this helps me develop a deeper relationship with my god.
Which god? I understand the implications of the rules that a god would set, but are you confident enough in his/her existence to assert a having a relationship?
He was referring to both theism and religion, and rather ironically poked fun at religion, because Buddhism is a religion (not necessarily theistic though).
Ah, well at the time it seemed like he was specifically referencing Theism, but I'm sure you are right here.
Which god? I understand the implications of the rules that a god would set, but are you confident enough in his/her existence to assert a having a relationship?
The Lord, the Christian god. Yes, I am confident in his existence to assert having a relationship. However, I am not strongly confident that I can debate his existence with others.
By what standard do you conclude that theists categorically have wasted their lives? If they feel their lives are fulfilling, then what basis do you actually have to claim otherwise?
I lack the disposition for theism, but if somehow I could choose to be a theist I would not elect to change. I recognize I have my own delusions (we all do), but I see no compelling reason to add theism.
I agree with you here to an extent, even if we disagree as to any benefits of theism. I personally believe that there are real tangible benefits associated with religious fellowship, prayer, and the like, even without any god having to exist.
At the same time though, I wouldn't want to fundamentally change myself in order to enjoy those benefits. The only way that I could possibly become a theist again would be to literally undo decades of learning and experience from my life. If "I" were a theist, then "I" wouldn't be "me."
There are benefits to theistic structure, but unlike some of the harms of theism these benefits are entirely non-unique. As an atheist I have found equitable support and community, without the unnecessary drawbacks of theistic delusion.
No. Theists have reassurance, comfort, strength to persevere in the face of tragedy and defeat. They enjoy the fellowship of other theists. They have the respect of their peers. They live in a strong support network.
Preferring to remain an atheist is not how it really works. People who have come to atheism through reason, cannot return to theism without abandoning reason. (Unless of course Judgment day arrives.) If someone has come to atheism through disillusionment, it is much easier to return to theism.
Atheists can also have reassurance, comfort, strength to persevere in the face of tragedy and defeat. Atheists can also enjoy the fellowship of other atheists, as well as that of theists. Atheists can also have the respect of their peers. Atheists can also live in a strong support network.
Not all theists have reassurance, comfort, strength to persevere in the face of tragedy and defeat. Not all theists enjoy the fellowship of other theists. Not all theists have the respect of their peers. Not all theists live in a strong support network.
I think you have some serious misconceptions about theists and atheists alike...
Atheists can also have reassurance, comfort, strength to persevere in the face of tragedy and defeat. Atheists can also enjoy the fellowship of other atheists, as well as that of theists. Atheists can also have the respect of their peers. Atheists can also live in a strong support network.
This isn't a dichotomy, though. Every single instance of these that is available to an atheist is also available to a theist. The aspects that come from faith or belief, however, are unavailable to an atheist by definition.
He's not suggesting That this is Theists:1 Atheists:0. More like Theists:10 Atheists:6, or something to that effect.
Not all theists have reassurance, comfort, strength to persevere in the face of tragedy and defeat. Not all theists enjoy the fellowship of other theists. Not all theists have the respect of their peers. Not all theists live in a strong support network.
The same could be said for atheists, except atheists have at least one fewer avenue available to them to 'correct' this circumstance. If nothing else, a theist can always connect and bond with someone else via their shared faith. I don't believe I've ever connected with and bonded with anyone via our shared atheism.
I think you have some serious misconceptions about theists and atheists alike...
I think you're discounting some of the big reasons that religion has been referred to as the opiate of the masses. There is definitely something to what he's saying here- god needn't actually exist for theists to reap these benefits, only their faith.
This isn't a dichotomy, though. Every single instance of these that is available to an atheist is also available to a theist. The aspects that come from faith or belief, however, are unavailable to an atheist by definition. He's not suggesting That this is Theists:1 Atheists:0. More like Theists:10 Atheists:6, or something to that effect.
My point stands even under a relative rather than absolute framing of the benefits. As an atheist I have known plenty of theists who have had less reassurance, strength, perseverance, fellowship, peer respect, and support than I have had consistently throughout my life.
The same could be said for atheists, except atheists have at least one fewer avenue available to them to 'correct' this circumstance. If nothing else, a theist can always connect and bond with someone else via their shared faith. I don't believe I've ever connected with and bonded with anyone via our shared atheism.
I have connected and formed community with other atheists, sometimes expressly due to our shared atheism. I know of other atheists with similar experiences. That we do exist indicates that theistic bonding is not a unique experience, and more importantly it establishes atheism as a possible avenue to which theists lack access. Just because not all atheists bond over their atheism does not mean that atheism is not an avenue to that benefit. For that matter, plenty of theists not only fail to bond over their shared theism but become exclusionary and even overtly hostile towards others expressly on account of their theism (e.g. theists refusing community with homosexuals).
I think you're discounting some of the big reasons that religion has been referred to as the opiate of the masses. There is definitely something to what he's saying here- god needn't actually exist for theists to reap these benefits, only their faith.
I disagree. I think that the benefits being discussed here are incidental byproducts rather than primary factors in the evolutionary selection of theism. This is borne out by the empirical fact that these benefits are not unique to theism. What theism did that atheism could not is provide a coping mechanism for the early emergence of a human sentience before it could reconcile self-awareness with mortality.
My point stands even under a relative rather than absolute framing of the benefits. As an atheist I have known plenty of theists who have had less reassurance, strength, perseverance, fellowship, peer respect, and support than I have had consistently throughout my life.
Do you suggest that their churches were a negative factor here, or is it more likely that the individuals in question had it lesser across the board? Do you suggest that simply being a theist intrinsically limits opportunities for other forms of support?
My point is that regardless of the overall quality of each support option available, theists have at least one additional potential support option beyond that of what atheists have.
I have connected and formed community with other atheists, sometimes expressly due to our shared atheism. I know of other atheists with similar experiences.
Maybe our experiences are just different. It seems to me that bonding over a lack of belief in a god is fundamentally the same as bonding over a lack of belief in santa clause.
Were you raised a theist, and is the atheist bonding you speak of more reflective over bonding over the shared experience of freeing yourselves intellectually from theism? I would call that a bit different than actually bonding over atheism myself, but maybe I'm off base.
For that matter, plenty of theists not only fail to bond over their shared theism but become exclusionary and even overtly hostile towards others expressly on account of their theism (e.g. theists refusing community with homosexuals).
I disagree. I think that the benefits being discussed here are incidental byproducts rather than primary factors in the evolutionary selection of theism. This is borne out by the empirical fact that these benefits are not unique to theism.
We'll just have to disagree. Neither of us believes that there are actual benefits conferred by a god or gods, so if theism is selected for it is most likely these benefits specifically that were selected for. The fact that they are not unique to theism doesn't modify this; a benefit need not be unique to be selected for, merely advantageous and present.
What theism did that atheism could not is provide a coping mechanism for the early emergence of a human sentience before it could reconcile self-awareness with mortality.
This seems to be speculation that is predicated on not wanting to admit that there are any current benefits to theism at all. Are you certain you are looking at this objectively?
My original point to OP was that none of the benefits listed are inherent or unique to theism, and thus constitute a poor basis on their own for the stance being advocated by OP. I think that generally stands, and we are engaged in a different and more nuanced debate to which my replies are as follow:
Do you suggest that their churches were a negative factor here, or is it more likely that the individuals in question had it lesser across the board?
The theists I have known who have lacked or experienced the benefits in question to a lesser extent than myself generally did not do so on account of any single variable. There are a lot of reasons why organized theism may not generate the purported benefits at all, let alone to an equitable degree as for atheists: exclusionary faith practices (sexism, racism, homophobia, etc.), encouraged reliance upon externalized coping mechanisms rather than emphasis on independent personal development, etc.
Do you suggest that simply being a theist intrinsically limits opportunities for other forms of support?
On a certain level, I do think that theism imposes inherent restrictions upon persons that they otherwise would not experience. Most notably, I think it retards personal growth and development and fosters an over-reliance upon the deity figure and other ideas necessary to faith. Emotional and cognitive maturity can affect the strength, stability, and prevalence of our connections with others. I think theism is also more disposed to insulate prejudice, and that this can limit opportunities for connecting with other persons. Etc.
My point is that regardless of the overall quality of each support option available, theists have at least one additional potential support option beyond that of what atheists have.
I understand, and my point is that that rationale applies in both directions rendering it a draw (i.e. atheists do not have access to theist bonding, but theists do not have access to atheist bonding). Your sole premise for dismissing that argument seems to be that you have not experienced atheism as a comparable support option; that would be a like a theist dismissing theism because they did not personally experience it as a support option. It is quite simply an inadequate basis from which to draw a conclusion, in my opinion.
It seems to me that bonding over a lack of belief in a god is fundamentally the same as bonding over a lack of belief in santa clause.
Hardly. For one, theistic beliefs are commonly held as real whereas Santa Claus is not. The shared experience of being a minority, with varying degrees of accompanying marginalization, can absolutely be the basis for forming connections, and it is fairly common among minority populations. Generally speaking, shared identity alone regardless of context can be a strong connecting factor for some people.
Were you raised a theist, [...] but maybe I'm off base.
I was raised a theist, but never was one. So, actually, I generally have rather little in common with respect to a lot of other atheists who experienced it in one of the two ways you mentioned. For me, my shared bond has been more in the comfort of knowing we share (or lack) similar assumptions or values about the way the world and life are to us.
We'll just have to disagree. [...] This seems to be speculation that is predicated on not wanting to admit that there are any current benefits to theism at all. Are you certain you are looking at this objectively?
Yes, and I would contend I am doing so far more than you are. I have expressly acknowledged and not once denied that there are benefits to theism, repeatedly. Your implication to the contrary is misrepresentative, and you have also falsely declared my views to be speculative even though I provided a supporting rationale that you did not directly refute.
That rationale once more: The history of evolution is replete with beneficial byproducts for which attributes were not initially selected. My express point is that your argument is assuming any and all benefits of theism to have been primary selective variables, rather than being beneficial byproducts. Your assumption is particularly questionable with respect to benefits which are non-unique, because if those benefits were not unique to theism then there would have been absolutely no reason for evolution to have favored theism due to those benefits.
Just to be clear, I'm not trying to assert that it's possible to have a meaningful, if any, control over your own beliefs. By referring to "preference", I mean it strictly without implying "choice".
Although I do pity theists at times, it's very a rare occasion. Theists are people who believe in what they believe just like everybody else. Who cares whether it be God or mermaids? Theists have their tastes and atheists have theirs.
I would remain an atheist over being any other religion. I enjoy the freedom to only please others and not worry about where I end up after I pass. I don't have to worry about all the things that "God" expects of me.
NO, why in the world would I?!?! I don't get it seriously. I wish I could let myself believe in a god, or deity, but I can't seem to let myself, believe.