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 Can a Godless Nation prosper from absence of moral absolutes? (92)

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FromWithin(8241) pic



Can a Godless Nation prosper from absence of moral absolutes?

When a nation's faith is banished from the public square, can it continue to prosper from the vacuum of moral values once lifted up by faith in God? Can man lift up moral values when no man thinks alike? With lack of moral guidelines, can a society fall into an anythng goes self love culture?

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3 points

Of course. As much as believers want to lie to themselves they don't have moral absolutes either.

DrawFour(2662) Disputed
2 points

Well they do, killing is an example, they just don't follow them. It's ij that regard though that I agree with you ultimately, since if they could choose to not follow their moral absolutes, it'd be the same as if they weren't there.

Cartman(18192) Disputed
2 points

Moral absolutes aren't real. Everyone who has ever claimed they followed moral absolutes has at some point acted as if they weren't there.

1 point

Killing is actually a very good example of how ephemeral moral absolutes tend to be.

Christians will generally try to distinguish between killing and murder, but several examples expose the gray areas:

mercy killing, the death penalty, war, killing animals, self-defense, etc.

FromWithin(8241) Disputed
1 point

When anything goes, how can a nation ever shame people for sleeping around, having babies they can not afford & living of the tax payer? When there is no shame for one's actions in life, we have degraded to an amoral nation where anything goes. The end results are clear to see. Broken homes & 17 trillion in debt trying to pay for dependents on our social programs.

2 points

If you don't want babies to be born when they are not wanted, logic says that you should support contraceptive access.

DrawFour(2662) Disputed
1 point

Shame might be how you run your family, but it's not how you run a country. Laws are how you run a country. When someone doesn't follow them, they don't fear shame, they fear penalties.

Cartman(18192) Disputed
1 point

No country has ever followed their own moral absolutes including the religious ones.

Elvira(3446) Disputed
1 point

That's probably more to do with bankers screwing up.

1 point

The end results are clear to see. Broken homes & 17 trillion in debt trying to pay for dependents on our social programs.

Didn't the Holy Roman Empire, as a Christian Theocracy, have more or less these exact same issues that contributed to their downfall?

Is there any example of a successful Christian Theocracy, other than the Vatican- which I assert doesn't count because they have a significant part of the world filling their coffers, not just their own resources and efforts.

Paradox44(736) Disputed
1 point

Then how does one choose what morals should be written in as law? If everything is relative then how do we judge what laws should be in effect? How do we say that rape, murder, or torture is wrong?

1 point

Since it is relative we define something is wrong relative to the situation. You can kill someone in self defense. Rape is nonconsensual sex acts. We don't make laws from absolutes.

FromWithin(8241) Disputed
1 point

As much as you want to deny it, believers lives much more responsible lives then those who believe in nothing.

Cartman(18192) Disputed
2 points

As much as you want to deny it, there is not a single person on Earth who believes in nothing.

Plus, you are wrong.

MuckaMcCaw(1970) Disputed
1 point

And yet, atheists make up less then 1% of the prison population...

3 points

Thats exatctly whats happened. We have prospered without moral absolutes. They dont exist. And the laws prescribed in the bible came from man and are just extensions of our own ever changing view of morality. Were a social species. In order for our very existence to continue it is imperative that we be able to coexist and work together. We dont have claws or fangs or insane strength. Were squishy and would quickly fall down the food chain if we couldnt work out some kind of unwritten code to live by. Most things are obvious like not killing or raping. Those things seriously hurt chances of reproduction and cause the death rate to rise. Two things a species cannot have if it wants to continue. As we evolved and grew more intelligent our culture became more complex thus necessitating our morality to grow in complexity as well. We needed marriage laws, currency laws, road laws. Things we never needed before we had roads and money. Laws arent some transcendent code from an all loving being theyre just our way of keeping eachother accountable for our actions so that our species is sucessfull and our lives are enjoyable and hopefully peacefull.

FromWithin(8241) Disputed
0 points

What you just described as our evolving moral code has nothing to do with this new Liberal amoral nation. You said most things are obvious such as not killing. LATE TERM ABORTIONS ON DEMAND? HELLO! Kids killing Kids?

Marriage laws? Do you mean like our marriage laws are changing to allow Gay people to marry?

Liberal Democrats hold NO ONE accountable for their actions. They want to redistribute everyone's money to pay for the irresponsible lives of others.

Our nation is dying from the vacuum of moral values. Separation has done what every Christian & Conservative knew it would do. Our nation is going bankrupt financially & morally. Our families are broken, our children being raised with no fathers or mothers with many joining gangs to get some semblance of family. Over 70% of Black children have no mother or father at home. I could go on & on & people like you will never admit the total failure of Liberalism.

AveSatanas(4443) Clarified
3 points

What you just described as our evolving moral code has nothing to do with this new Liberal amoral nation. You said most things are obvious such as not killing. LATE TERM ABORTIONS ON DEMAND? HELLO! Kids killing Kids?

Late term abortions are not on demand. The highest limit in a few states is 24-26 weeks with most states around 20 weeks after which it is not permitted unless a minimum of 2 doctors agree that the womans life is in danger. And regardless of this 88% of all abortions happen well before this limit during the first trimester. Get your facts straight.

Marriage laws? Do you mean like our marriage laws are changing to allow Gay people to marry?

I dont recall where i mentioned marriage laws but are you refering to our laws now adapting to the 21st century progressive mindset that grants full rights to all people regardless of sexual orientation like non-biggoted assholes ought to? Because those are a good thing.

Liberal Democrats hold NO ONE accountable for their actions. They want to redistribute everyone's money to pay for the irresponsible lives of others.

Yet another useless blanket statement. Any facts to back this up? Increasing the welfare budget is not the government pampering people with "immoral lifestyles". Its what needs to happen so that the vast vast majority who do not want to be on welfare but are stuck there can get OFF of welfare. We need a larger budget to allow people to get necessary training. The issue is lack of education. Im seeing you clearly ignored my entire rebuttal to your antiwelfare rant.

Our nation is dying from the vacuum of moral values.

Says...? Shown where...?

Separation has done what every Christian & Conservative knew it would do. Our nation is going bankrupt financially & morally.

Morally is your opinion which you have yet to back up with anything but ad hominems and vague blanket statements. As for financially last i checked we were out of the recession that multiple republican presidents got us into...

Our families are broken, our children being raised with no fathers or mothers with many joining gangs to get some semblance of family.

You mean like any other time in american history?

Over 70% of Black children have no mother or father at home.

Because of a racist and downright poor welfare system that keeps such minorities below the poverty line preventing them from getting the resources necessary to move above it. But no lets cut welfare and see how the impoverished black community turns out. Im sure it will lead to less broken homes and less gang activity. oh wait it will do the opposite.

I could go on & on & people like you will never admit the total failure of Liberalism.

Thanks for ignoring the other 75% of my rebuttal and for responding to the 25% you did not with facts but with more vague bullshit showing your sheer ignorance of the facts and how this country and morality work.

2 points

Moral absolutes only work if they are followed. Seeing as everyone does not follow them all the time, they are the same as laws, and laws are only doing us so well.

2 points

Japan has a low crime rate, and most of the population follow Shinto and/or Buddhism, neither playing a huge role in most of the Japanese's lives.

2 points

I am sorry, but facts aren't welcome in this debate. Didn't you get the memo? ;)

FromWithin(8241) Disputed
1 point

A low crime rate? Japan is HUGE on traditional families & honor & ritual all stemming from their religious heritage. They are not stupid enough to separate what they know their nation needs.

Cartman(18192) Disputed
3 points

You didn't say can a religious nation prosper, you specifically said a Godless one.

Elvira(3446) Disputed
1 point

Yes, they are quite big on the idea of a traditional family (which happens to be one reason young people are staying single longer as marriage can mean the death of a woman's career. It's a huge crisis in some areas, with schools shutting down in some areas because of the rapidly falling birth rate. See the documentary 'No sex please, we're Japanese') Ritual is a part of Shinto, a religion that deifies nature, ancestors and the unusually superior. There are some kami that bear similarities to Greek deities (even sharing the odd myth) but these are not really classified as gods. Shinto has no central doctrine, as it is an old folk practice that has survived into the modern age. There are some values and ideas of morals attached to it, like purity, though.

2 points

For the sake of this debate, how are we to measure prosperity?

When a nation's faith is banished from the public square

The nation doesn’t have a faith or religion per se, individuals have faith and often congregate when they have similar beliefs.

Peoples' faiths are not banished from the public square, religion just doesn’t have any legal jurisdiction over it. You’re perfectly free to believe in what you want, just as long as it doesn't infringe on your neighbors liberties. That, and legislation cannot be based on virtue of God, Allah, Vishnu or any of their respective scriptures alone; there has to exist substantial reasoning other than just "the Bible tells me so," especially in the case of civil liberties that affect people's liberties and rights.

can it continue to prosper from the vacuum of moral values once lifted up by faith in God?

Indeed, that is exactly what has led to much prosperity (though I acknowledge that our ideas of prosperity might differ). The vacuum of morals proposed in Christianity has restricted prosperity for far too long. Slavery, unfair treatment of women, genocide, infanticide, racism… all have significantly decreased throughout history due to the implementation of more civilized secular moral conduct. As a result, I believe we are far more prosperous because of it.

Can man lift up moral values when no man thinks alike?

Of course, this happens all the time; people often come together on moral issues. Hurting people is wrong, stealing is wrong, etc. people throughout history even within different cultures have shown the ability to come together on moral values despite individuality.

With lack of moral guidelines, can a society fall into an anythng goes self love culture?

I’m not sure what an “anything goes self love culture” is, much less how a lack of moral guidelines relates to it.

Besides, who arbitrates what is to be considered a “lack of moral guidelines?”

2 points

Considering how America is still overwhelmingly Christian, I seriously doubt godlessness is the root of our problems.

I'd say it has more to do with conservatives being completely loony and liberals being complete idiots.

FromWithin(8241) Disputed
1 point

The root of our problems is separating any mention our majority faith in this nation. That was the beginning of the end for this nation & Liberal Democrats ushered the lie of separation into the courts & took our freedoms of expression. You spew pure rhetoric when you call Conservatives completely loony. They want our nation to balance it's budget & debt, they want to bring back the notion of personal accountability for one's own actions in life, & they want Liberals to quit forcing their PC laws down our throats. What's loony about that?

pakicetus(1455) Disputed
2 points

I call them loony because of their complete incompetence when it comes to handling these issues.

Also, you're painting conservatives to be much more favorable than they act in reality, try not to be so blatant.

Jace(5222) Disputed
2 points

The concept of the separation of church and state predates the contemporary liberal by a good couple hundred of years. Try doing some basic research instead of just swallowing the most readily available propaganda you come across.

Those on the Left constantly want to scare you & make you believe that Conservatives want to make moral laws on us all. They will ask the question "Whose morals? They will say they can't even define morals, so where does that leave a nation's direction when growing Liberal thought says we must censor any mention of morality because under their own logic, whose morals do we try & live up to? The result of such a mentality is a nation void of moral values, drifting in the wind with absolutely no road map to follow.

The Liberal's answers to problems created from an amoral society?

1. Abortion to deal with the results of the sexual resolution.

2. Sex Ed. in schools because you have given up on the notion that teaching our kids moral values & teaching them to abstain actually works.(it worked 60 years ago & yes I know, teens were getting pregnant back then.... BUT NOT NEAR AS MUCH!)

3. Forcing tax payers to pay for Abortions & welfare for the ever growing numbers of irresponsible people living immoral lives.

4. Putting metal detectors & police in our schools to try & protect our kids from a degrading culture.

5. Taking guns from law abiding citizens to try & stop the gun violence. (funny we had no problems with Gangs, or of kids mass killing kids 60 years ago when we had all kinds of guns.)

Here in lies the core reason for our nation's ever growing immoral culture & all the resulting problems such as swollen welfare roles & broken homes. This nation came up from a Judeo Christian heritage. The core values interwoven from that heritage were in-bedded throughout the fabric of our culture & our laws. People were not forced to follow those morals, or forced to believe in any religion. Most Atheists 60 years ago had no problem when our media & schools & Government lifted up Christian moral values. Values we all understood were good for a nation & for our children.

Along came the Liberal attack on our Christian heritage. The Liberal mentality is bent on censoring any mention of our Christian heritage in public schools, Government, all walks of public life. This was done all in the name of Separation of Church & state, NO WHERE in the constitution. Their argument was so laughable because after the constitution was written, our religious freedoms were never questioned & our schools were even allowed to require Christian school teachers because they wanted good moral teachers with Christian values leading & teaching our children.

To truly understand the meanings of certain text written in the Constitution, we sometimes must go back & look at history & society years after the Constitution was written. We did not see out rage over the obvious Christian values intertwined in the culture at that time. People understood the constitution stood up for the freedom to express those values, NOT SEPARATE THEM!

So here we are, a nation that does not dare mention moral values & spends Trillions trying to fix the result of an amoral culture. As long as people like you keep electing Liberal politicians, our nation is over. It will fall from within.

Conservatives such as myself want no one being forced to conform to any one person's or political groups's notion of morals. We have seen the results of this with the Liberal's political correctness & the forcing of us all to conform to their version of moral values. What Conservatives want is to get back to our nation's heritage where the very mention of moral values is not censored. Our children & our culture desperately need direction. A nation without faith is lost because like it or not, only God can enlighten a people to moral values. Man can not make morals for other men because as many say, no man thinks alike. This is a free nation where no person should ever be forced to believe in God, but an intelligent person understands a nation needs the moral values that come from faith in God. Not a God of hate as we see in other nations, but a God of love for all mankind as our Christian heritage teaches.

AveSatanas(4443) Disputed
2 points

Theres just too much stupid to address in under a 3 hour period. Unfortunately i just dont have the time. Sorry. Please kindly take it upon yourself to read a book or hit yourself with said book. Whichever you deem less painful.

FromWithin(8241) Disputed
0 points

Thanks for admitting there is nothing you could say that could possibly refute what Liberals are doing to this nation with the lie of separation. A Godless nation is a dead nation with no soul & all about self love. Liberals actually show their bias for those who live irresponsible lives while punishing & making enemies of anyone who dares speak out on morality & the good that comes from it.

Cartman(18192) Disputed
2 points

Most Atheists 60 years ago had no problem when our media & schools & Government lifted up Christian moral values.

Christians have no right to complain about things today because 60 years ago they weren't complaining about how bad things were.

pakicetus(1455) Disputed
2 points

2. Sex Ed. in schools because you have given up on the notion that teaching our kids moral values & teaching them to abstain actually works.(it worked 60 years ago & yes I know, teens were getting pregnant back then.... BUT NOT NEAR AS MUCH!)

Actually, teen pregnancy rates have decrease dramatically since the 90's.

Rotbart(101) Disputed
2 points

1. Abortion to deal with the results of the sexual resolution.

Abortion isn't something that "liberals" invented. Abortion has existed for millennia, and there are historical primary sources that talk about it as far back as Ancient Mesopotamia.

2. Sex Ed. in schools because you have given up on the notion that teaching our kids moral values & teaching them to abstain actually works.(it worked 60 years ago & yes I know, teens were getting pregnant back then.... BUT NOT NEAR AS MUCH!)

Since the implementation of sex ed classes in the 90s, the teen pregnancy rate has dropped.

3. Forcing tax payers to pay for Abortions & welfare for the ever growing numbers of irresponsible people living immoral lives.

I would be interested in having proof from an unbiased/credible source about this. You have made this claim probably more than 10 times, and I've asked you repeatedly to show proof of what you're talking about, and you just keep making the claim. I want to see how "liberals" are "forcing (how? At gunpoint?)" tax payer to pay for abortions.

4. Putting metal detectors & police in our schools to try & protect our kids from a degrading culture.

Metal detectors aren't at every school, just ones where students have a history of bringing guns to school. So, what would be better?

Our culture isn't "degrading." For most of this nation's history, we have had a much less moral society than we do today, and you can trust me on that, or I can give you plenty of factual examples on request.

5. Taking guns from law abiding citizens to try & stop the gun violence. (funny we had no problems with Gangs, or of kids mass killing kids 60 years ago when we had all kinds of guns.)

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with Reagan's connection to the Brady Bill. Google that.

60 years ago we didn't have the extreme wealth and social immobility problems that we do today. Gangs are the product of a socially immobile underclass without options in terms of society's approved means to society's approved goals. Gangs do not exist because of gun control. If that were true, how do you explain the Mafia's hold on the nation during the 1930s?

Here in lies the core reason for our nation's ever growing immoral culture & all the resulting problems such as swollen welfare roles & broken homes.

This nation's "morality" has been "worse" in the past, in terms of what you're talking about. There was never a "golden age" in America's history where we were 100% moral, that falling from. We have lots of broken homes and people on welfare because of corporate greed which have stressed families to their breaking point, and put people on welfare by paying starvation wages.

This nation came up from a Judeo Christian heritage.

Not really. This nation grew from enlightenment principles, although the Calvinist/puritan influence is pretty undeniable when you look at the hate the right has for poor people.

Along came the Liberal attack on our Christian heritage. The Liberal mentality is bent on censoring any mention of our Christian heritage in public schools, Government, all walks of public life. This was done all in the name of Separation of Church & state, NO WHERE in the constitution.

This is an over-generalization fallacy. I've explained to you at length where the phrase "separation of Church and State" come from, I've told you that it has appeared in countless Supreme Court rulings, and how it is implied in the Constitution's 1st Amendment. If you haven't got it by now, you're willfully believing false ideas.

People were not forced to follow those morals, or forced to believe in any religion

You just contradicted yourself.

Most Atheists 60 years ago had no problem when our media & schools & Government lifted up Christian moral values. Values we all understood were good for a nation & for our children.

Like those "old Christian Values" that gave the US the Manifest Destiny to extend their empire from "sea to shining sea" via wars of genocide, corruption, and slavery? Ah yes. We have fallen from those high moral values indeed.

To truly understand the meanings of certain text written in the Constitution, we sometimes must go back & look at history & society years after the Constitution was written.

As someone who studies history for a living and has a degree in it, I really don't think you do understand the meanings of certain texts in the Constitution. However, I think you SHOULD go back and look at history and society after the Constitution was written, and see that your ideas about this nation's history are patently absurd.

We did not see out rage over the obvious Christian values intertwined in the culture at that time. People understood the constitution stood up for the freedom to express those values, NOT SEPARATE THEM!

People understood the Constitution stood up for the freedom to express those (Christian) values. Okay that's not what the Constitution was written for, but how come then, John Adams wrote "America is in no way a Christian Nation" in the treaty of Tripoli? Isn't that weird that a guy that was present at the Constitutional convention would say something like that?

So here we are, a nation that does not dare mention moral values & spends Trillions trying to fix the result of an amoral culture. As long as people like you keep electing Liberal politicians, our nation is over. It will fall from within.

You keep talking about how we "used to have a moral society" but I would like to see you produce proof of this supposed Camelot that used to exist in the US. When did we have a moral society? When lynching was legal? When slavery was legal? When women had no rights to own property? When it was legal to kill Native Americans for land? When it was legal to discriminate against Irish people (because they were Catholic)? When "white" was a legal status? When we passed the Chinese exclusion act? When women were confined to the home and hooked on antidepressants like miltown? When children worked in mines and died before they were 30? When was this "moral America" you speak of?

Conservatives such as myself want no one being forced to conform to any one person's or political groups's notion of morals.

Unless you're talking about your "conservative," "Christian (not really very Christian)" values.

We have seen the results of this with the Liberal's political correctness & the forcing of us all to conform to their version of moral values.

We have also seen the results of theocracy. In America we have, and always have had, a secular government. If you don't like that, there are plenty of theocracies you can move to. Try Saudi Arabia. They have "traditional values" that they enforce that keep their society "moral." You might like it there better.

A nation without faith is lost because like it or not, only God can enlighten a people to moral values. Man can not make morals for other men because as many say, no man thinks alike.

Which God? No man worships alike either. What if you're a polytheist? What if you're not Christian? Again, if you want a government that is ruled by "religious values," go move to Saudi Arabia. America is built on enlightenment principles.

This is a free nation where no person should ever be forced to believe in God, but an intelligent person understands a nation needs the moral values that come from faith in God.

This argument point is contradictory to your larger point.

Please try reading some books, or you can ask me questions since I know more about these things than you do (I love teaching people about history and their government), or at least produce some facts and evidence to support your arguments. Just because it's the GOP's party line, or what your pastor told you does not make it a fact or evidence.

1 point

There are no objective/absolute morals, only subjective/relative ones? Why? because different cultures and religious have different codes of ethics, except for some they share which are simply good ideas for social cohesion (and perhaps came all the way from our pre-human ancestors). The only absolutes are cosmological in origin, or exist in the abstract universe of Mathematics. But absolute morals? No, evidence of this.

As for a Godless nation not prospering, which nation do you refer to? Perhaps you make a reference to the US becoming more liberal or irreligious? By what definition does the US prosper either under God or without Him, since most of the wealth is in the hands of a few?

I am not strictly speaking a pagan, but the version of the Golden Rule is the Witches Rede, which says "An' it harm none, so as you will". That rule if followed would bring order to society, and the question of God existing or not becomes rather irrelevant.

FromWithin(8241) Disputed
0 points

By prosper, I am speaking to our 17 trillion in debt from this amoral culture that wants Government to take care of them from cradle to grave.

What you call the golden rule is the very antithesis of Liberal thought. The golden rule simply means not doing unto others what you would not want done to you.

1) Would you want others sleeping around, getting pregnant & then forcing you to support them on welfare?

2) Would you want others taking illegal drugs, becoming addicted & having you pay to support their habit or pay for their rehabilitation.

3) would you want a corrupt Government redistributing your money to their voting blocks?

4) if you went back to the time when you were a late term baby in the womb, would you want others ending your life?

It amazes me the Liberal's notion of morals. The golden rule has no place in Liberal thought. Their motto is the no fault culture. If you sleep around getting pregnant with dead beat Fathers who walk away from their responsibility, or take illegal drugs & become addicted, it is not your fault. It's the Rich man's fault. It's the white conservative's fault. Never is it the person's fault for their status in life.

Rotbart(101) Disputed
3 points

By prosper, I am speaking to our 17 trillion in debt from this amoral culture that wants Government to take care of them from cradle to grave.

17 Trillion dollar deficit that is the result of corporate welfare, and pointless wars that were put on a credit card. Food Stamps (which 90% of people who use them are employed but paid unfairly, and 900,000 Veterans are among them) only make up for 3.9% of the federal budget. 21% goes to the military which hasn't defended the US since 1945, and arguably since the civil war. What should we cut, the tiny amount that helps people who need it? Or the larger parts that are used to give companies freebies that are making record profits, as well as the 21% that goes towards fighting pointless wars in far off lands?

1) Would you want others sleeping around, getting pregnant & then forcing you to support them on welfare?

You keep talking about these people "forcing" people to support others on "welfare." Who is doing this, and what specifically are you talking about? No one is forcing anyone to do anything. Taxes are dues you pay for living in civilization. No one is forcing you to pay them, you can definitely move to some remote part of subsaharan Africa where you can be free of taxation, and I would not mind myself.

2) Would you want others taking illegal drugs, becoming addicted & having you pay to support their habit or pay for their rehabilitation

I would rather pay to have them rehabilitated than put in prison and taken out of the work force. I'd much rather my tax dollars went to something that fixed the problem then just putting people in prison. Either way, I'm paying, and prison doesn't fix the problem.

3) would you want a corrupt Government redistributing your money to their voting blocks?

I don't know what you're talking about. The Republicans will take my tax dollars and redistribute them to companies that are making record profits, like the oil oligarchy. I would rather actually get something for my tax dollars, like veterans benefits that worked better for my veteran brothers and sisters who actually did something for this country, and the working class, who build this country.

4) if you went back to the time when you were a late term baby in the womb, would you want others ending your life?

I wouldn't be here to tell the story, and I probably wouldn't have the cognitive ability to realize what was going on, so this question begs a fallacy.

It amazes me the Liberal's notion of morals.

Yeah, there's nothing worse than people who want to ease the suffering of the disabled, the veterans, the elderly and the minorities. That's pretty much the opposite of what Jesus wanted.

The golden rule has no place in Liberal thought.

Argumentum ad poplam. Please provide evidence.

Their motto is the no fault culture.

Argumentum ad poplam. Please provide evidence.

If you sleep around getting pregnant with dead beat Fathers who walk away from their responsibility, or take illegal drugs & become addicted, it is not your fault.

What are you talking about?

It's the Rich man's fault.

Kind of. If the upper class wasn't so entitled, we wouldn't have a wealth distribution that is worse than pre-revolutionary France. It is a fact of sociology, that people who are poor have less access to quality education; people without education, are more likely to have an unwanted pregnancy, so the stratified, unfair, socially immobile society that YOU vote in favor of, is actually causing this. While the individual does have a choice, they must know that they have a choice. We are all, as John Locke would say, born with a clean slate, or Tabula Rassa, and we are products of the world around us. The choices we have available to us are part of that world around us.

Elvira(3446) Disputed
2 points

1) Most people on the US 'food stamp' system are actually working full-time for a low wage.

2) Everyone makes mistakes, society should function as a safety net for those who need help.

3) Try the feudal system???

4) Actually, yes. But late term children can't be aborted- it's against the law unless there's some horrific problem with the mother's health.

Instead of pointing fingers and making people suffer, we should try to understand the situation so we can better deliver a solution to a problem. Methods such as birth control, financial support for single mothers, sex education, and safe and regulated abortions are proven to improve maternal health and lower the number of unwanted pregnancies happening. If we want an equal society we have to work to make it possible. Maybe it is the rich, white conservative bible thumper's fault, that he campaigned for abstinence-only sex-education, wouldn't help pay for his employee's birth control and doesn't pay them enough so they have to rely on food stamps?

"Everyone makes mistakes"..... Ahhhh, if I had a nickle every time I heard a Liberal make that irrelevant statement. So under that no fault mentality, we should enable & excuse people who constantly make those same so called "MISTAKES".

It's called choices in life. They are not making a mistake when they choose to have a one night stand with some idiot they met in a bar. They deliberately go out with the intent of finding someone to have sex with. THAT IS NO MISTAKE! I don't want my hard earned money paying for irresponsible idiots choosing to live immoral lives & then forcing me to pay for it. That is the world Liberal Democrats would have us all live in. One big happy commune where the responsible people pay to bail out the irresponsible people & it is NO ONE'S FAULT!

Can Liberals get any more stupid?

The bottom line? Liberals are very insecure arrogant people who want no guilt placed upon their heads for irresponsible choices they may make in life. They truly want a no fault society where we need Big Government going bankrupt trying to bail out every person's so called "mistakes" in life.

Rotbart(101) Clarified
1 point

Can Liberals get any more stupid?

"Liberals" aren't the ones that deny science, or adhere to economic principles that have never proven to work in history.

It is like poking myself in the eye constantly when ever I debate Liberals. It matters not what I say, it matters not if makes complete sense, if I dare mention morals there will be a knee jerk reaction from every Liberal on this site. They live to censor speech concerning moral values. Liberals are the king of semantics. They will pick at any word you say, such as absolutes, take it all out of context because they realize they really don't have an argument against lifting up moral values. That would be like saying it is wrong to tell a child not to play in the street.

When I talk about moral absolutes, I'm not talking about morals that everyone must follow. I'm talking about basic moral values that anyone would agree with. Not killing innocent human life, not stealing, not raping, not hurting others, etc.

But they will take that word & make their entire argument all about forced moral laws.

Get real or it is ignore time.

Rotbart(101) Clarified
1 point

You might find a different result if you tried using objective facts in your argument and not just partisan talking points, and over-generalization fallacies. Everyone else is using facts and evidence against you, and when you just parrot something a right wing pundit says, it makes you appear closed-minded and uneducated. Since most of the people attempting to debate you are or seem educated, you will not get through to them by just reciting Rush Limbaugh. Everyone on this thread knows what you believe because it is strictly stereotypical right wing partisan thinking. We already know what you think. Maybe try using facts to show WHY you believe that, and you might see different results. Facts can change the way people think, and while I don't think your viewpoints could possibly be supported by objective facts, I challenge you to try to use facts because that's what debating is. If you just want to yell at people you consider "liberal," just go some place where you think you'll find lots of them, and yell at them; they will yell back using quotes from Thom Hartman. This site is for debating though, so I think if you tried out-maneuvering your opponents using facts, you might not hit a stone wall OR you might realize that you're wrong. Either way, it's progress.

1 point

You know mate, maybe people would stop calling you an idiot if you stopped acting so insane.

Not saying that your statements are insane, but they way you're saying them is just unappealing and generally obnoxious.

FromWithin(8241) Disputed
1 point

The truth hurts doesn't. I realize with today's political correctness, no one wants to hear the simple obvious truth. Morals have become a dirty word to Liberal's. They are so insecure, they become outraged at any person or faith that actually speaks to moral values. Liberals have an inferiority complex & want to believe they are the compassionate ones with a superior intellect. LOL what a joke! Our nation is drowning from lack of moral direction & they sit there blaming the Rich.

Ask yourself, why the outrage? Why do you despise anyone who dares talk to our immoral culture? If you don't agree with their opinions, move on & quit having a coronary. They have every right to their opinions & there is NO ONE trying to force moral laws on you. That would be the Left constantly forcing their PC moral laws down our throat.

pakicetus(1455) Disputed
2 points

The truth hurts doesn't.

It hurts some people. And it can be annoying when the guy speaking the truth is acting like a total lunatic.

Morals have become a dirty word to Liberal's.

I'm not a liberal mate.

Our nation is drowning from lack of moral direction & they sit there blaming the Rich.

One thing we can agree on.

Why do you despise anyone who dares talk to our immoral culture?

I don't, in fact, I spend a great deal of time doing that myself. I particularly despise the American media.

They have every right to their opinions & there is NO ONE trying to force moral laws on you.

Please, I'm not stating they don't.

Basically, I'm saying more people would listen to what you're saying if you stopped screaming "Liberals are ruining everything!. A much more calmed and less accusatory approach does wonders in terms of getting people to listen to you.

As I said there is absolutely nothing I could say that would change a Liberal's thinking. When I talk about late term abortions supported for any reason by the Democrat party, you laughable people bring up first trimester abortions.

When I bring up the irresponsible actions of the vast majority of people on welfare, having sex with people they don't even know, one night stands, drugs, alcohol abuse, etc., what do i get from you? Oh they got drunk & made a mistake. LOL are all Liberals the absolutely no fault, no responsibility, no accountability kings of the world. When a person CHOOSES to drink very much alcohol, they are responsible for making that choice, IT'S NOT MISTAKE!

When I bring up broken homes, you fools talk about rich people & lack of money, etc. as causes for a man or woman walking away from their children. It's called immorality to walk away from your family! I guess during all the hard times from the past when there was NO MONEY, and families still stayed together, that means nothing to you intellectual jokes. Don't let the facts get in the way of your ludicrous excuses.

I'm wasting my time, don't bother replying to my post, there is nothing a person could say to people so lost in their ideology.

1 point

Two words: Nazi Germany.

That is all

Jace(5222) Disputed
2 points

Two words: fallacious argument.

That is all.

1 point

If we are having a "moral decline," where did we "decline" from? When was the "Golden Age of theocratic American Morality? I'd love to hear about the time when we were more "moral" than we are now. Give me a decade, or period of time. I know a lot about history, but I've never heard of this time.

My answer is no. A nation is prospered by a healthy respect for the rule of law.

I think morality changes depending on the situation. There are no moral absolutes so there's now way to legislate based on that. Legal absolutes are okay with me.

1 point

I haven't gotten a reply to this, and I posted it about a week ago: If we are having a "moral decline," where did we "decline" from? When was the "Golden Age of theocratic American Morality? I'd love to hear about the time when we were more "moral" than we are now. Give me a decade, or period of time. I know a lot about history, but I've never heard of this time.

I am interested in hearing what period in American history was the pinnacle of our "morality" from which we have fallen. When was the US a moral camelot when everyone was Christian, and everyone adhered to modern "Christian" values? I'd really be interested in hearing this. I double-dog-dare FromWithin to produce a period in history that he thinks is the "High Point of America Morality" that we have fallen from. So please, FromWithin: if you're not too chickenshit to make a claim based on evidence, when was the US a shining beacon of morality for the rest of the world to look to, and when did we start "falling" from that? Don't ignore this. Don't be a chickenshit. Please enlighten us.

It worked in Nazi Germany. Didn't it?

0 points

We are not talking about perfect people who never sin. Of course Christians sin but they try to live moral lives & follow their faith. We are talking about a nation that should also try & lift up the good in moral values. Whether you are a Christian or not how could anyone find fault with basic moral values that merely serve to help others & to keep them from being a burden on society.

As parents did you try to teach your children moral values that you knew would help them throughout life? Or did you teach them to live it up, one night stands, drinking, drugs, all to feel good regardless the long term destruction of their lives.

A nation's values should help parents, sending the same messages to teens, etc.

Lifting up lifestyles of responsibility that do not grow our welfare roles should be every nation's goals & what do Liberal Democrats do? Constantly talk of how GOVERNMENT(tax payers) will take care of you( all to get elected). Do you ever hear the Democrat party talking about personal responsibility? Do you ever hear them shaming those sleeping around getting pregnant & running to the tax payer to bail them out? NO, all you ever hear Democrats do is tell people not to worry, they will take care of you on the backs of tax payers. Isn't it nice how generous Democrats are with your money? Can you spell taxation without representation.

3 points

Of course Christians sin but they try to live moral lives & follow their faith.

Once you recognize that everyone tries to live moral lives you will become a uniter instead of a divider. You can't bring people together by saying that the only way to advocate not doing drugs, or shunning teen pregnancy, or avoiding debt is to be Christian. You can get your point across without bringing up Christianity.

Or did you teach them to live it up, one night stands, drinking, drugs, all to feel good regardless the long term destruction of their lives.

Do you really think parents teach their children this?

A nation's values should help parents, sending the same messages to teens, etc.

The message "If you aren't with us rot in hell" doesn't work. You should first stop spreading messages like that.

Lifting up lifestyles of responsibility that do not grow our welfare roles should be every nation's goals & what do Liberal Democrats do? Constantly talk of how GOVERNMENT(tax payers) will take care of you( all to get elected). Do you ever hear the Democrat party talking about personal responsibility? Do you ever hear them shaming those sleeping around getting pregnant & running to the tax payer to bail them out? NO, all you ever hear Democrats do is tell people not to worry, they will take care of you on the backs of tax payers. Isn't it nice how generous Democrats are with your money? Can you spell taxation without representation.

Here is my proof. You don't mention Christianity at all and you actually make an argument to show that libs are not helping.

FromWithin(8241) Disputed
0 points

Here's a clue to every Liberal bigot spewing the same rhetoric. I will mention Christianity as much as i want because there in shows the Left's bigotry towards those that are at odds with the Liberal ideology, censoring any mention of our Christian Heritage that made this nation the greatest on Earth. Liberal Democrats are doing all in their power to bring this nation down to third world status. Liberalism has proven in the past 60 years to he a hideous socialistic controlling fanatical ideology. They pretend to care about the poor when in fact they care only for the votes from the poor to keep their arrogant fanaticism alive & well with the power of Government. Have you noticed Liberals NEVER EVER speak to the core reasons for people making careers on on welfare? They want you controlled by Government & they want no God influencing our minds. They want to be the ones controlling us all. The party of late term abortions for any reason have the compassion of animals!

Jace(5222) Disputed
1 point

Whether you are a Christian or not how could anyone find fault with basic moral values that merely serve to help others & to keep them from being a burden on society.

Rather easily, actually. Morality is nothing more than a self-righteous, judgmental projection of subjective emotional beliefs. It is a delusional affliction, utterly unfounded in and even actively contradictory to objective reality. It is as wont to harm as it is to benefit.

0 points

Shame ABSOLUTELY helps prevent people from destroying their lives. Why is it Democrats have no problem shaming those who smoke, or own guns, or buy gas guzzling cars, or spank their children, or eat fatty foods.... etc. etc. but when it comes to sexual morals or drugs, or running up debt & then running to social programs to be bailed out, they say NOTHING!

60 years ago it was considered shameful to be an unwed parent & guess what? That shame helped keep many teens from getting pregnant. Today many teens are proud to be pregnant & have no shame living off welfare.

As you separate God, you fill the void with self love & broken homes.

0 points

It's not that moral absolutes will ever be perfectly followed. Moral absolutes are simply a road map to what we should all strive for. It's the striving that makes a nation a better place. The anything goes self love culture does nothing but grow our debt, our welfare roles, our broken homes, etc.

If you are so blind not to see this, WOW!

You say whose moral absolutes. I say our nation's Christian heritage has made us the greatest nation on Earth. The moral values building this nation should not be thrown aside by Liberalism. It's what made us great. We are not talking moral laws that Liberal rhetoric tries to scare you with. We re talking about simple moral values lifted up as good for society. Unwed pregnancy should be spoken of in the same light as smoking. It's not good for you. Taking drugs is not good for you. Living it up, spending money you don't have & then running down to social programs to be bailed out is not a moral thing to do. These are simple examples that everyone should agree with, unless of course you are the ones doing it. Then you will be on this site tearing down any talk of morals.

J-Roc77(70) Disputed
2 points

You just seem to say things you don't like then say " you know who does that....Liberals and Democrats!". Sooo funny. I mean these are your moral absolutes right?But then you contradict yourself in what you don't like on the issue of smoking.

Unwed pregnancy should be spoken of in the same light as smoking. It's not good for you.

But a few posts before you are berating Democrats for the behavior you just said should be done.

http://www.createdebate.com/debate/show/ Can aGodlessNationprosperfromabsenceofmoral_absolutes#arg577162

Why is it Democrats have no problem shaming those who smoke, or own guns...

You are not very consistent with your ideas. Pretty sure you are just here to troll, you are excruciatingly partisan.

FromWithin(8241) Disputed
0 points

Try reading & comprehending the meaning of other's posts. I have no problem with anyone's freedom to smoke or anything else as long as he does expect me to pay for his irresponsible actions. I was making the point that Democrats have no problem shaming people who smoke, because these Liberal eletes don't smoke themselves. But they have no problem with promiscuous sex, drugs, alcohol abuse(because they do these things themselves) so nothing is said about these vices.

Democrats make it so easy for people to live irresponsible lives & then expect the responsible working tax payer to pay for their free subsidies. I'm sick of a Government who constantly punishes hard work & success while rewarding irresponsibility. It's a recipe for what we are seeing in this broken culture.