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45
53
Yes No
Debate Score:98
Arguments:67
Total Votes:106
Ended:10/28/17
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Can a person be considered patriotic if he/she does not stand during the National Anthem?

Choose a side to this debate and support your opinion with concrete examples, quotes and/or historical data/references.  Please refrain from responding unless you have supported your post appropriately.

Yes

Side Score: 45
VS.

No

Side Score: 53
Winning Side!
5 points

We fought a revolutionary war over political protest. Its the most american thing you can do .

Side: Yes
2 points

Hello b,

Dissent is the MOST patriotic of events a citizen can engage in.. In fact, this great country of ours was BORN in dissent.

excon

Side: Yes
GreyMatter1(3) Disputed
2 points

Excon, Based on your argument our founding fathers through their dissent were demonstrating patriotism to the British Crown, NOT THE UNITED STATES.

To answer this question its helpful to ask can an individual show respect at a funeral proceeding by laughing out loud the whole way through it? Maybe it was a buddy of yours from school and you were just personally showing your "Respect" to him by remembering the good times from grade school----However based on the moment it's still disrespectful to the family.

This is no different, As a Country there is a long-standing cultural history of standing as a sign of respect for the flag. Not doing so, and drawing attention to yourself in the process is a sign that you are choosing your own agenda over showing reverence and respect. There are times and places to express personal agendas, and times and places that expressing personal agendas is disrespectful.

Side: No
excon(4378) Disputed
2 points

Excon, Based on your argument our founding fathers through their dissent were demonstrating patriotism to the British Crown, NOT THE UNITED STATES.

Hello Grey:

Nahhh.. You got it exactly BACKWARDS. Where did you get your history? Montgomery Wards?

excon

Side: Yes
2 points

Aaah. The great liberal contradiction. The first dissent was good? Doesn't that by deductive logic make the dissent of the original dissent...... bad?

Side: No
excon(4378) Disputed
3 points

Hello bront:

Sounds like a trick question... Lemme try it this way.. Dissent AGAINST government is GOOD. Spreading your legs for 'em is NOT.

excon

Side: Yes
2 points

Dissent is the MOST patriotic of events a citizen can engage in..

I'll help you out con. Flipping George Washington the bird is a Redcoat thing. It's what Redcoats do.

Side: No
excon(4378) Disputed
2 points

Flipping George Washington the bird is a Redcoat thing. It's what Redcoats do.

Hello bront:

It's what a FREE man does.. Whether you or I LIKE it, ISN'T relevant..

I just don't know what's so mysterious about FREEDOM to wingers like yourself..

excon

Side: Yes
marcusmoon(244) Clarified
1 point

... born in dissent.

I once knew a guy who was born in Dissent. I think it is a small town in Texas. ;)

Side: Yes
excon(4378) Clarified
1 point

G'morning marcus:

I vaguely recollect you being involved in another conversation about the names of towns, and the people who live in 'em, or something or other.

We have a town here named Sultan, and there's only ONE way to be when you're in Sultan.

excon

Side: Yes
2 points

Whether a person is patriotic depends entirely on that persons internal value and intention for their nation. A person can be considered patriotic or unpatriotic for any number of reasons regardless of their actual level of patriotism.

Take excon for example. He thinks that there is no greater patriotism than dissent, even though there is no greater dissent than treason. With minds as muddled as this, what patriot can bother with what is considered patriotic? Not this one.

Side: Yes
excon(4378) Disputed
2 points

Hello A:

It's true.. Dissent CAN turn into revolution, and that's something we should AVOID at all costs.. Besides, I LOVE my queen..

excon

Side: No
Amarel(2376) Disputed
1 point

Sure. And the Rosenbergs were true American heroes. .

Side: Yes
2 points

Why don't you ask that guy who had his legs blown off in the war?

Or how about the crippled?

Or how about the elderly and sick?

The Declaration of Independence and a middle finger high in the air. That's the American way.

Now be lets sincerely be good to people. Even people who bother us.

This here God's country.

Side: Yes
2 points

Though not standing during the National Anthem is against the flag code, it isn't illegal nor is one subject to punishment for doing so. Apparently, the habit of standing up for the anthem is actually relatively recent. Despite both the anthem and the flag being symbols of a country I do not believe every situation in which one does not stand for the anthem can lead us to conclude he/she isn't patriotic.

If this debate sparked due to the "take a knee" protest that has been happening for quite some time now, I become even surer that not standing doesn't mean one isn't patriotic, it may even strengthen the level of patriotism this person has (in my eyes).

In this specific case, the United States of America, a country built on equality, free speech, hard work, among others... I don't believe there is anything more patriotic than kneeling together, making use of this privileged position we happen (and worked so hard) to be on to freely express our opinion/position, calling the country out on failing to promote equality.

Side: Yes
xMathFanx(673) Clarified
1 point

@ritas, First, welcome to the forum, I appreciate your input.

Second, I agree that dissent is consistent with patriotism (depending on that act of dissent being carried out and in many cases, as excon pointed out is a higher form of patriotism depending on their reasons/actions). Also, note whether Patriotism/Nationalism itself is positive or negative is a separate matter entirely. So we have some agreement here and come down on the same side of this Debate topic as you ("Yes").

Third (and sorry to be a bit hard on you for your first post), you said, "the United States of America, a country built on equality, free speech, hard work, among others... "

What History books are you reading?? Do you really believe that or would you like to throw in a very long list of massive caveats prior to attempting to argue for that point?

Side: Yes
marcusmoon(244) Clarified
1 point

XMathFanx,

Third (and sorry to be a bit hard on you for your first post), you said, "the United States of America, a country built on equality, free speech, hard work, among others... "

What History books are you reading?? Do you really believe that or would you like to throw in a very long list of massive caveats prior to attempting to argue for that point?

There is a reason they are called ideals.

I don't think the list of needed caveats is all that long.

One of the most basic foundations of the USA, and certainly of the US Constitution is the assumption of imperfection and the need to make political space for the people, as individuals, as a society, and as an electorate, to change, grow, and develop.

As much to the point, the Framers of the Constitution established institutions that enable the populace as we developed and changed to force change in the sort of people who govern us.

Sure, the founding ideals have never been perfectly instituted, but the United States of America was the first country founded on ideals such as freedom, equality, and independence. More importantly, it was the first country to institute a form of government that self-corrects toward instituting those ideals ever more faithfully.

Side: Yes
Coralsnake12(15) Disputed
1 point

I see your point and i think it is a reasonable one, however me personally i see it differently.

When i see people kneeling during the national anthem, i think of all the people that gave there lives for there country, to me when they kneel, its a sign of disrespect, and ungratefulness. But i do see your point though.

Coralsnake12

Side: No
michaelmell(7) Disputed
1 point

I can see your point here, but just because someone kneels during the national anthem doesn't mean that they are not patriotic. What it means to be patriotic is that you are a person who shows love for your country. There is more to loving your country than the national anthem.

Side: Yes
2 points

If you are a legal citizen of the United States of America and love your country, congratulations, you are patriotic.

Side: Yes
Coralsnake12(15) Disputed
2 points

I do agree with that. However, kneeling for the national anthem is not a sign of loving your country, in my eyes and coincidentally in the presidents eyes. When you kneel to the flag and the national anthem, you are showing a sign of disrespect (which is the purpose for this whole thing in the first place with colin keapernick because of black lives matter and they didnt want to stand for a flag that treats people unequally). It is a sign of disrespect to the people that died for you to have your freedom that you have right now. Heck, even the guys that faught for our country and came back with no legs stand for the national anthem.

Side: No
2 points

Hello again,

Seems the JOB of reminding people what the Constitution ACTUALLY says, falls to me... You'd think I wouldn't have to, but I do..

Here's the 1st Amendment.. Keep your eyes out for the clause that says, these rights are ONLY good as long as the right wing AGREES with them..

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

I didn't see 'em.. Did you???

excon

Side: Yes
1 point

Patriotism is love of the nation, and about commitment to the good of the nation and its citizens above the good of other nations or their citizens.

Standing respectfully for the National Anthem does not necessarily indicate patriotism, but rather decency and good manners.

For example, I would stand for the national anthem of another country, despite the fact that my patriotic commitment is to the US, not that other nation.

Kneeling/sitting/talking during any national anthem does not indicate that a person is not patriotic, only that the person is a rude and disrespectful dick.

By the same token, a person is not patriotic who stands for the National Anthem, but puts the needs of citizens of another country above the needs of citizens of his/her own country.

Side: Yes
1 point

may be he /she has his reasons to not stand during the national anthem but we cant force them for it.

Side: Yes
1 point

"Can a person be considered patriotic if he/she does not stand during the National Anthem?"

Phrasing is very important, a person can be considered anything. A more important question to ask might be, should we force people to be patriotic, to which I would respond no.

Side: Yes
Coralsnake12(15) Disputed
2 points

No we cant force people to be patriotic. Just like we cant force people to follow the law. Think about it. People say your force to follow the law, but that doesent stop people from creating the worst crimes you can think of ( Las Vegas shooting for example). So i dont think you are using the right context here. If you are an American citizen, there is a life that died for you to have the freedom you take for granted and the freedom YOU deserve and to garentee NO ONE can take it away. So, we can all agree that kneeling for the national anthem is a sign of rebellion and disrespect right? So, you rebelling and disrespecting that life that gave you the freedoms you have here today, therefore to answer the question of patriotism, you cant be a patriot if you kneel for the flag because a patriot is someone that loves there country. How can you love your country when you are disrespecting your country and your brothers and sisters that died for YOUR freedom in this great nation?

Side: No
3 points

Would it be different to the Liberal hypocrites in this nation, if people took a knee during Gay weddings?

Would it be different to fool Liberals if people took a knee at every abortion clinic exterminating our children?

Would you hypocritical fools be standing up for these people and telling everyone how it is freedom of expression? Nah, you fools would be screaming how it was homophobic, haters of women, etc. etc. etc.

But when it is our flag that is being disrespected, you fools are falling all over yourselves excusing their anti American expression.

Your double standards tells us all where your priorities lie, and your disdain for our nation.

Side: No
AveSatanas(4237) Disputed
2 points

Actually all of those things are perfectly constitutional .

Side: Yes
FromWithin(5476) Disputed
2 points

Yes, all those things are perfectly constitutional but when people on the Right protest against the inhumanity of No Restriction abortions, there is no voice of support from the Left for their right to do so.

Nah, the hypocritical Left scream at them, telling everyone how these pro lifers hate women. No mention of their right to protest.

Side: No
3 points

No they cannot unless one wants to re - define the term patriot to suit their particular objections .

A definition ..............

patriot

ˈpatrɪət,ˈpeɪtrɪət/Submit

noun

a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors.

"a true patriot"

Don't American passport holders make an oath of allegiance before getting a passport ? If they wish to be consistent why not hand their passports back to the "tyrannical "government they oppose ?

Side: No
marcusmoon(244) Clarified
2 points

Hi Dermot.

Don't American passport holders make an oath of allegiance before getting a passport ? If they wish to be consistent why not hand their passports back to the "tyrannical "government they oppose ?

We had a bunch of celebrities threaten to expatriate if Trump were elected president, but come November 9, they were all still here.

To surrender a US Passport, or renounce US Citizenship would be the height of folly for exactly the same reason that Americans refusing to stand for the US National Anthem is the height of ingratitude.

The US is a wonderful place to live! It isn't perfect, but judging by how many people want to move here from everywhere else in the world, it is still damned nice.

As much as leftists are yelling that Donald Trump is "horrible", "tyranical", "evil", etc., none of them has any reason to be afraid to publically criticize him or any other part of the US government.

Americans live in the land of eternal food. About 2/3 of Americans are overweight or obese. Even in the middle of Hurricanes, grocery stores still have some food.

Nearly 75 percent of all deaths in the United States are attributed to just 10 causes, none of which is starvation or murder by an individual or invading army.

People in the US live long enough that Alzheimer's Disease is 6th most common cause of death in the US!

Near as I can tell, those kneeling football players are just a bunch of ungrateful, spoiled twats who need to spend some time in Bangladesh or Saudi Arabia to make up for the fact that they were not taught good enough manners and were not spanked enough when they were kids.

Side: Yes
3 points

Hi Marcus , yes I heard about that a truly ridiculous idea and like most just an empty threat .

Yes , my point regarding the passport is if they feel so pissed off why not make the big gesture as in surrender the passport , as you rightly point out it would be the height of folly .

I lived in the U S and had a ball .

I agree totally and when you see a multi millionaire sportsman letting his , team , fans and fellow Americans down by simply not acknowledging despite all it's faults America been pretty good to him

Side: No
excon(4378) Disputed
1 point

patrɪət,ˈpeɪtrɪət/Submit

Hello D:

"SUBMIT", as in lay down for whatever Trump dictates???? I DON'T lay down for government.. I NEVER laid down for government, and I NEVER will. I have absolutely NO respect for those who do.

Fortunately for America, TRUE American patriots acted more like ME and Colin Kaepernik, than you. Otherwise we'd STILL be paying homage to the queen..

excon

Side: Yes
3 points

lay down for whatever Trump dictates

Like people don't have to pay unaffordable premiums or be penalized for having no insurance? Oh wait. He wasn't able to "dictate" that.

By your observations, we should have impeached Obama and the entire Democratic party when they DID dictate that.

Side: No
Dermot(3644) Disputed
2 points

Trust you to pick the one word and get all butt hurt ; no one is asking you to lay down I'm asking you to respect the National Anthem .

What's a true American ? Kaepernik and you should hand your passports back you're not fit to call yourselves American

Side: No
2 points

Fortunately for America, TRUE American patriots acted more like ME and Colin Kaepernik

Not really. I don't remember them protesting America. I do remember them protesting Britain. I also see liberals now demanding we be more like Britain. You're a Redcoat Con. You're pissed that we through your tea in the river. Isn't that a daisy?

Side: No
2 points

No they cannot be considered patriotic because of that fact that they decide to ''peacefully protest'' at the same time everyone is standing and giving respect to this great nation and all the people that have died for it. Whether it's the person's intention to disrespect the flag or not, it is disrespectful and unpatriotic of that person to not stand and show respect to this great nation during the national anthem. It is because of this great nation that we have freedom and liberties, so therefore a person cannot be considered patriotic for not standing during the national anthem.

Side: No

Yes i agree with this statement. I get that some might think that something as simple as standing for a song wont make you not a patriot, but trust me, those that lost there arm and two legs, might appreciate it if you did a simple kind and appreciative jester such as standing as a sign of respect.

Side: No
2 points

What I'm finding alot on the "yes" side is that you cant force people nor punish people for kneeling (not standing) for the national anthem. I agree with that. The one problem is, thats not what this original question is asking. The question asks if you can still be a patriot even if you kneel for the anthem. How can you be a patriot (Someone who loves there country) if you are showing disrespect and rebellion to our brothers and sisters that died FOR YOU to enjoy your freedom in our great country? Not just to our military, but all the people that still serve here today in our government to make sure our rights as PEOPLE are not taken away.

Side: No

Seriously, its sad we even have to see if it should be illegal to stand for the national anthem? I thought that its something you should do if your an American citizen, no matter what. But since this is actually a debatable topic, we'll start with our military, think of all the people that died for YOUR freedom so that when you do a very unpatriotic act like this, you will not be crucified. But when you think about it, your actually spitting on the grave of a kind soul that gave up his life for you and all of us for you. Really a way you wanna say thanks?

Side: No
2 points

think of all the people that died for YOUR freedom

Do you think about them when you mimic how Germans felt and behaved in Nazi Germany?

Side: Yes
Coralsnake12(15) Disputed
1 point

May i ask you restate the question? I'm having a hard time understanding what your trying to ask.

Side: No
marcusmoon(244) Clarified
1 point

Coralsnake,

But since this is actually a debatable topic, we'll start with our military, think of all the people that died for YOUR freedom so that when you do a very unpatriotic act like this, you will not be crucified.

I agree with the basis of your opinion, but I think you are missing the difference between being unpatriotic, per se, and being a rude, unappreciative, disrespectful jerk.

Some things are courtesies or signs of basic respect, and are required of every decent person in polite society. It doesn't matter who you are or where you are from, good manners demand standing quietly and respectfully for any national anthem (except the anthem of a nation with which your nation is at war.)

It is entirely possible to truly love one's nation, but still be ungrateful, unappreciative, and inconsiderate. Love is not mutually exclusive of a lack of gratitude and common decency. (For example, kids who love their moms act like uncooperative, spoiled brats all the time.)

Side: Yes