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Can any believer prove their god exists ? If not why ?
It is the theist’s job to prove a god exists since in fact it is the theist who is making the claim. The theist is the claimant who is claiming something exists. Atheists are simply objecting to the notion that there is any reason to believe in a god since there is no evidence for it.
The bible says ,
(1 Peter 3:15) that as a Christian you must always be willing to give a reason for what you believe and must provide evidence for what you think is the truth. If you don’t respond or can’t respond then you are not doing your job.
No Direct Evidence Has a god been revealed to anyone in visible form or with an audible voice? What are his properties and characteristics that define him/her? Does he/she wear a white robe or does he have a beard? Is this god a male or female? People have imagined 100’s of gods into existence over the last few millenniums. There is no credible direct evidence currently or within the archeological or historical record to support the claims, stories, miracles, prayer or evidence offered by the theists.
No Indirect Evidence Marriages don’t last longer Violence is just as high in Christian nations. Accidents happen at same rate. Just as likely to get a sickness, illness or disease.
There is no credible indirect evidence currently or within the archeological or historical record to support the claims, stories, miracles, prayer or evidence offered by the theists.
The Principle of Falsifiability means that a claim being made should be shown how it could be proven to be false if tested. The person must provide things that would falsify their claim if true. An example would be like saying you think all polar bears are white and saying that if you ever found a black polar bear your statement would be proven false. People claiming that a god is real should provide a something about their god that would prove it to be false. If the god believer cannot provide a statement that would falsify his god it weakens his argument because there is nothing for science to examine and try to find which would contradict their claim.
What we can say is that if a god does exist he has not been discovered yet. If there is no evidence for a god we can say that what is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without argument meaning atheists do not have to argue against something that has no evidence for its existence.
It's pretty simple to show how/why a Christian would believe with what you might call "reasonable faith" as opposed to "blind faith". If you want a straight forward and honest assessment of how my mind wraps around the question, here it is. Why make some simpleton argument? I'll just give you the link to my whole site, and you can decide for yourself with your own brain and heart.
But why would a " simpleton " argument be made to what you believe ?
I've no wish or desire to attempt to talk people out of their particular belief as that's futile ; I'm interested in how they've come to believe what they believe
If a believer defines their god as something that necessarily exists, then of course they can prove its existence. The only argument in this case is to argue that what they call their god, which does exist, is not in fact god. But the proof was there.
I presume they can prove their god to themselves but that's about it .
It always comes down to the definition of their particular god which varies from individual to individual as in ( recently ) The ultimate reality , Nature , A mystery etc , etc .
The proof to them is very real otherwise they wouldn't believe , so to them their god exists , I'm more interested in how one comes to their particular belief in god and how they sustain that belief .
When I said “necessarily exists” I meant that god exists by definition, if they define god as something that is known to exist. In the recent example where the claim was that god is reality, no one would doubt the existence of reality (whatever its nature), but many would take issue with calling reality god. In that case, you believe in the existence of what he calls god, but you don’t define what you both believe exists as god. So the argument is no longer existential, but rather one of semantics. (And it’s a pursuit of rhetoric rather than truth).
Ok , I get that now . The recent one about ultimate reality was truly a waste of time , I was trying to find out how he defined god but it became very confusing when bible verses were thrown into the mix as well as the various terms thrown about ; I see the very same is going on at the moment with many more .
It's refreshing for me when a believer like Mint says she takes it on faith then at least we can talk about what that means to her and me and an interesting exchange can be had ; unfortunately most such debates end up in a mess
Talks concerning faith usually go better if neither party holds the faith or lack thereof against the other party.
Sam Harris made practical headway with the help of a Muslim, not because they agree on faith, but because they don’t hold that topic against the other.
Hey Dermot. I think we have had this discussion before and because of that, I think you already know my position. However, because I am uncertain of our having that discussion I feel inclined to ask what I would normally ask in this circumstance, although I am sure I would already know the answer to said question. If Christianity were true, would you believe it?
Hi Luckin . I used to believe as in I was a devout Roman Catholic educated by the Jesuists and know the bible in Latin , my native Irish tounge and English; yet here I am an atheist as I realised I was merely a product of indoctrination .
If Christianity were true would I believe it , yes I would ; but I've established beyond doubt to myself that's it's a deeply irrational position to hold
I think you know the typical response that Christians will give you in terms of direct evidence. Jesus and the world around us. I would argue that to say Jesus doesn't exist would be ignoring all the historical writings about Him. I do recognize that you don't think the writings are credible, however, when there are 10's of thousands of documents talking about his existence (and not necessarily his deity), its hard to not find them credible. I guess my point is that if his existence is going to be denied, then its going to have to be argued with every single history department. I guess all the historical evidence would be considered indirect evidence, but that still leaves the eyewitness testimony. For the world around us, its primarily going to rely on an objective, unbiased standpoint. What I mean by that is I can't outright assume something supernatural, but at the same time you can't outright assume something natural, not that you do that already.
But I totally agree Jesus existed and I've actually debated atheists on this ,the Historicity of Jesus is seen as fact by most credible historians; the difference is believers talk about a "miracle " working Jesus Historians do no accept the model of a "miracle " working Jesus .
Incidentally there are not 10's of thousands of documents talking about his existence, there is evidence he lived but not one bit of commentary regarding miracles or resurrections which one would think would be something mentioned in the commentaries .
So there you have it Luckin you and believe Jesus lived , where you deviate is you and fellow believers have zero proof for a miracle working saviour
Absolutely correct. Furthermore, there currently cannot be any evidence of a miracle occurring until someone demonstrates a mechanism by which we could link a phenomenon to a supernatural causation.
Even if an event were to occur that that has never happened before and seemed to be impossible by the disciplines of science, that does not justify the conclusion that it was a miracle. There could be a natural explanation that we are as yet unaware of.
For a miracle to happen it would mean the natural laws of the of the Universe are on hold for such an event to occour ; every so called "miracle " to date has had a valid rational explanation
Ahhh yes I completely agree. Sorry If I didn't explain myself properly. I posited a hypothetical for the purpose of explaining that even should such an event occur that defy the laws of nature as we know them, that still doesn't justify calling it a miracle, as a miracle presupposes God, or at least some supernatural agency, as we have no way linking to a supernatural or divine causation.
I agree totally , you explained it very well we're both on the same page Jimbo 👌 it's still a mystery to me that this superstitious nonsense is still about in the year 2017
Fair point. The best answers I can give at the moment are deductions and inferences to the best explanation. Proof beyond the shadow of a doubt that Jesus was who he said he was, not sure that anything comes to mind but one thing I think helps are all the prophecies that came true surrounding Jesus. In terms of the miracles, I just have a question to clarify something for me. Do you think miracles are impossible?
Maybe you could name some of these prophecies and what about all the prophecies that didn't come true ?
Also what about the promises Jesus made that never happened?
Definition of a miracle is an event not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency ; for me that makes them impossible
To be honest, I didn't look into it before I said what I did. From what I remember hearing, there are prophecies that Jesus fulfilled and prophecies that are meant for the end times. Those may be the ones you are referring to. If not let me know. Maybe this may help you
I find them totally unconvincing and i agree with what Hitchens says regarding such ......If you pick up any of the four Gospels and read them at random, it will not be long before you learn that such and such an action or saying, attributed to Jesus, was done so that an ancient prophecy should come true. If it should seem odd that an action should be deliberately performed in order that a foretelling be vindicated, that is because it is odd. And it is necessarily odd because, just like the Old Testament, the "New" one is also a work of crude carpentry, hammered together long after its purported events, and full of improvised attempts to make things come out right.
You said you had direct evidence Luckin , can you lay it out ?
You're right. I did. At the moment, the best I can do is creation. What I mean is all the intricacies about creation that can't be explained outside of direct creation from a being outside of it which as I am writing this sounds more like indirect evidence. I apologize but I think I spoke earlier without thinking about what it was I was saying. Although I personally can't think of direct evidence, other than Jesus and creation, at the moment, I am sure there is
You're right. I did. At the moment, the best I can do is creation. What I mean is all the intricacies about creation that can't be explained outside of direct creation from a being outside of it which as I am writing this sounds more like indirect evidence.
It isn't evidence at all, mate. I'm sorry. Physics has an evidence-based theory for how the universe emerged into existence and God is not a part of that theory. He is not necessary for explaining either the beginning or the evolution of the universe and hence, per Occam's Razor, without alternative direct evidence of his existence he should not be taken seriously as an idea.
Thank you for acknowledging that Luckin . That's special pleading as in if one cannot explain something why not just say I don't know ? Why factor a supernatural entity there no evidence for into the equation?
This isn’t necessarily directed at you but I think the claim that there is no evidence for something then to me, it just shows that you were not willing to look at evidence that could prove otherwise. I think that for the most part you can find a natural for something But when you require something outside the system that the natural world cannot account for then to me it will require something outside the system to have caused it. I think the main difference though between us is that I have not philosophically ruled out God. I am not trying to make a jab at you by saying this, I just wanted to point it out the difference
After thinking about this for some time, I realized that all I have is indirect evidence at my disposal. I sincerely apologize for not getting to that sooner. I will do what I can to explain myself without trying to go into special pleading. When it comes to nature, if the natural world cannot account for something, where else would you look? The evidence points to something either inside or outside the universe. While I have used God as an explanatory mechanism the same way you described in the past, I have started to use a natural, scientific explanation for things. However, that does not take God out of the picture. God is still the one that created and sustains everything. My evidence for this, although indirect, is that nature could not have created itself thus justifying a beginner. I do not want to go down the rabbit hole of trying to prove that its specifically the God of Christianity unless you would want to. That though has more indirect evidence. I feel like I'm rambling now and to be honest, I only wrote as much as I did because I forgot what you wanted evidence for
If the natural world cannot account for something where else would l look ? Well I'd admit I cannot nor do I know everything but why bring a god into it ?
Here you are doing it again stating boldly god creates and sustains everything that's not debating that's making an argument from assertion which is a non argument .
Our Ancestors did not know what we know now and would be astonished at what we accept as everyday science , regards the Universe and how it all started years ago Stephen Hawkings claimed M theory would put an end to the debate once and for all ; what about can something come from nothing ? It can and it's been proven , so science marches on and has no interest in anything but hard evidence .
You asked me .....r. If Christianity were true, would you believe it?
.....you also asked did I want indirect or direct evidence ; unfortunately you have provided neither as all your doing is three fallacious arguments as in argument from assertion , special pleading and goddidit
Yes. One doesn't need to see a giant in the sky to see that. Look at the world and the various religions that have left a significant historical mark and you can see proof they existed. I'll go on a limb and assuse that OP understands the theory of relativity. We have a society based on a theory. Not tangible proof, or 100% absolute, just a theory. Just like any religious figures' existence. I digress. Take a look at world history, the proof is there that they existed, even if only in the form of a collected, accepted belief; like the theory of relativity is. It's the same thing. Today, people worship an abstract idea instead of a humanoid figure, but its' existence is hard to deny in one format or another.
I'll go on a limb and assuse that OP understands the theory of relativity. We have a society based on a theory. Not tangible proof, or 100% absolute, just a theory.
Relativity is a testable hypothesis, which is what makes it a theory. God is not a testable hypothesis and therefore it is not a theory. It's simply bullshit invented to con people with.
Furthermore, you claim relativity is not proven, but without it we would not have satellite navigation systems. Every single scientific experiment in the last one hundred years has verified the accuracy of relativity.
As is frequently the case with the religious, you are comparing chalk with cheese and pretending they are one and the same thing when they very obviously are not.
Yes religions existed which proves .... religions existed and nothing else .
We have not got a society based on a " theory " what has Evolution got to do with a belief in a god ?
Evolution is both "theory" and "fact."
In everyday usage, "theory" often refers to a hunch or a speculation. When people say, "I have a theory about why that happened," they are often drawing a conclusion based on fragmentary or inconclusive evidence.
The formal scientific definition of theory is quite different from the everyday useage .
In my mind faith is deeply personal. Experiences lead me to my conclusions and most of them are too personal to want to get in to.
It's like saying I have a piece of candy. You aren't here so you can't see it, taste it, touch it, experience it. But I know that I have it. When I eat it, it's harder to prove that I had candy, you would have to take it on faith that I did.
Perhaps your past experiences lead you to the conclusion that God doesn't exist, perhaps certain people of religious faith have pushed you away from it. The latter is a sorrow to me but experiences shape us to who we are and what we believe.
The way I see it is the only way to know for sure is when we die, and I hope that doesn't happen for a while.
I knew I could rely on you to be totally honest Mint and I appreciate it , you're one of the believers it's always a pleasure to chat with as you do so politely and intelligently .
Ok taking your example if you told me about your candy experience I would accept it as true because I would see no reason to doubt it as it's a rather common experience ; if you stated you were conversing with a ghost of a long lost relative I would doubt very much your claim and if you take the reverse and I made a similar claim would you take it on faith ?
Faith even when I was a believer was understood to be belief without evidence we do not use faith for anything else in our lives do we ?
The way I came to Atheism is by nagging doubts in my head about the various things I was told which were false ; one thing was praying , no matter what i prayed for it never happened and my prayers were rarely selfish I came to rely fully on my senses as in I never saw god , I never heard him unless you count the voice in your head , and I never touched god .... this all happened gradually and I could no longer sustain belief as I simply didn't believe any more .
Almond joys sound great I've never heard of them before , I love those multi flavoured American jelly beans
Almond joys sound great I've never heard of them before , I love those multi flavoured American jelly beans
Almond joys are fantastic if you like coconut. I like the ones with almonds. I think the ones without the nuts are just called Mounds? But I don't like those as much. NOW for multi-flavoured Jelly's I think you mean Jelly Belly's which are fantastic but I can't eat the buttered popcorn ones, they don't sit right with me, there are also Jelly Beans which mimic the Harry Potter world and I would recommend you try just for the experience but beware....they are surprisingly accurate and gross at the same time.
.....a whole paragraph talking about candy....you can see where my mind is this morning.
if you stated you were conversing with a ghost of a long lost relative I would doubt very much your claim and if you take the reverse and I made a similar claim would you take it on faith ?
That's an interesting question. I'm not sure that I would believe but I'm not sure that I wouldn't. I believe that you believe you are talking to your relative, be it because it's a comfort to you or because they are there, or maybe you're a tad touched in the mind, or you're pulling my leg. But if you believed you were talking to someone, and it made you feel comforted, who the hell am I to tell you that you are wrong? I am the kind of person who would ask how that ghost is doing though, not out of cruelty but because maybe, just maybe that ghost does exist, I just haven't had the experience to know for sure. If I'm later made to be the fool for it because it was a lie then I know more about the liar.
The way I came to Atheism is by nagging doubts in my head about the various things I was told which were false ; one thing was praying , no matter what i prayed for it never happened and my prayers were rarely selfish I came to rely fully on my senses as in I never saw god ,
I understand that. I recall praying to God when my father was being raced away in an ambulance, my prayer did not come true and my faith was shaken. But I noticed some smaller things, things that seemed too coincidental, too particular to be random. Things added up more and more and after a lot of soul searching and reflection I came to the conclusion I'm at. I rely on my senses, I rely on science and (sigh) math....I hate math, I believe in evolution and think the Bible is full of history and stories, and I believe in God. I think blind faith is dangerous to those who give up thinking and a boon to those who know how to abuse it in others. I also think that even though I believe in God, there will be people on here who decry my faith because it doesn't 100% match theirs, and in that I feel a little sorry for them....but not too much. ;D
Faith even when I was a believer was understood to be belief without evidence we do not use faith for anything else in our lives do we ?
Well sure we do! I have faith in my husband that he will never cheat on me. I have faith that the school system is treating my kids right. I have faith that I'll have my job tomorrow or take breath in the next five minutes. Or do you mean something more than that?
My pleasure . Mint you will insist on torturing me with all this candy talk I'm looking across the room at a large bag of assorted jelly beans and I know if I open them I will devour the lot and that's before dinner .... temptations everywhere I look
Buttered popcorn jellbeans are a joy , I love sour grape and pina colada ones 👌
You see here's the thing I spent a lot of time in the past de-bunking ( I'm a former full time magician / mentalist ) claims made by , spiritualists , mediums , ghost hunters , and all sorts of miracle workers and proponents of pseudoscience because the belief systems they follow can be extremely dangerous as in fleecing the unwell , the bereaved and the desperate .
The broader point I was making though was I will accept most of the claims made by you until they get to a point where I doubt what you say then I will ask why you believe that ; don't we all do the same ?
Yes I know you're genuine in why you believe and why you say you believe , my wife would hold similar views to yours .
Regarding faith people do not have faith in brakes working in their car, the sun rising or me waking up. These are things that have a high probability of happening because there are past experiences of these things and there is knowledge of them functioning correctly. Also people have a working model of how and why these things happen
Mint you will insist on torturing me with all this candy talk
Indeedy! It's the best kind of torture!
You see here's the thing I spent a lot of time in the past de-bunking
That's fascinating. Let me ask you something because I'm curious. When you de-bunked people who were the "victims" of mediums, people who had thought they may have been talking to their loved ones, what percentage of them were angry at you and what percentage where angry at the medium, out of those who were angry? Did you every worry that maybe you were taking away some hope? I'm genuinely curious if people would be thankful, hurt, angry, or go someplace else. I know there are some who take advantage of those in mourning, the ones that take money to "hold" or some nonsense and swindle innocent, ignorant people out of money. Those people are despicable.
I will accept most of the claims made by you until they get to a point where I doubt what you say then I will ask why you believe that ; don't we all do the same ?
Oh sure, I think I would ask at the beginning anyways, simply to try to understand why and where a person is coming from. Then make my opinion from there.
How are you defining faith ?
Hmmm....as best I can say: a belief or trust in something or someone. I could use the dictionary but I think it's more broad then what it says. The faith I was describing that we all have though is in people. Be it strangers or loved ones or those we know but only kinda sorta. I wouldn't trust my kids to some random stranger to babysit them but I have faith that the school system did its due diligence and hired the appropriate person. I hope that makes sense.
Here's the way it worked , you would get a family member who was worried in a lot of cases about their mother who had recently lost a husband and a medium would be extracting large amounts of money from them , they were never angry but more relieved as deep down most knew they were being conned but these charlatans would keep them hooked .
I always let them down very gently with a family member present and never asked for or took a fee .
I think when you say faith and use it in everyday situations in the way you use it here , it's more an expectation going on previous experience , would you disagree ?
Ahh so you never spoke face to face with the bereaved. I can see why, it would be heartbreaking.
I think when you say faith and use it in everyday situations in the way you use it here , it's more an expectation going on previous experience , would you disagree ?
Well, no not necessarily. My husband is my first experience with a husband. I didn't know what to expect going in and some days even coughhack years later I still don't know. The first time I sent my daughter to this school, even with the rating being so poor, I had to have faith that they would take care of her, and they have....I would have pulled her out in a heartbeat if they hadn't. Now that I have experience with them my faith is more secure that they will do right by my son when he goes in. I think in his instance that faith actually would turn into an expectation. So perhaps the first step in expecting something is the faith that it will turn out the way you want?
In my mind faith is deeply personal Truth isn't personal, it's universal, which is why faith is useless. It's like saying I have a piece of candy. You aren't here so you can't see it, taste it, touch it, experience it. But I know that I have it. When I eat it, it's harder to prove that I had candy, you would have to take it on faith that I did. A piece of candy is an actual object which can exist in nature, in order for that to apply to god there would have to be actual examples of god existing, which would mean that the whole argument is pointless because there is already proof that god exists, even if it's not your particular god. The way I see it is the only way to know for sure is when we die Who wants to wait for that? the candy was delicious, I love Almond Joys I love Almond Joys as well.
We actually had this conversation before...well I don't think it was between you or I but I've had it before.
Whose truth? The only truth that exists to you is the truth you see and experience. Until that experience suggests otherwise you are going by what you know as the truth. Just as others are theirs.
I love Almond Joys as well.
Most excellent, something we agree on. The ones without almonds are Mounds, right?
My first wife used to say, "what you eat in private, shows in public."
As an Atheist, I have NO objection to what you eat, say, believe or think ... in private, or with people of like mind. I DO object to people that INSIST I am stupid because I don't think and do exactly what they think I should do, especially when there are millions of people around the world that think differently. THEY are not all wrong. YOU (not meaning you personally), are not necessarily right ... as a few here on CD obviously think THEY are. As long as a religion does no harm to people (or animals, or the environment, or the universe, etc.), I don't care, in the least, what they wish to believe. If they feel they need something to lean on, they have my best wishes and NO critical thoughts from ME. I simply need something real, based on apparent fact. May you have many Almond Joys ... but not TOO many.
I DO object to people that INSIST I am stupid because I don't think and do exactly what they think I should do, especially when there are millions of people around the world that think differently.
I agree with this. I very much dislike it when some people trash others for their belief or non-belief. It's as if there is a feeling of superiority that is trying to be portrayed by either side when really the fact is we all have different thoughts and feelings (unless you like Okra in which case you are just wrong), which makes us all interesting.
YOU (not meaning you personally)
I do the same thing. I almost always mean "you" as in a random person and not the actual person I'm talking to.
As long as a religion does no harm to people (or animals, or the environment, or the universe, etc.), I don't care, in the least
I also agree. If someone genuinely believes in Santa, the Flying Spaghetti Monster and his Hot Sauce minions....I don't know if it has hot sauce minions but it should...or whatever, I don't care. Just be a good person and do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
May you have many Almond Joys ... but not TOO many.
I'm always happy to give someone a laugh. Enjoy! Is there anything else in this world that interests you? Abortion .... I never was involved with anyone so fixated on one subject. Could it be that you are trying to cover a guilt complex??
Could it possibly be that abortion is the one issue that shows a persons true colors?
Do you understand why people would never vote for a KKK member based on that one issue of racism?
It's because that one issue speaks volumes to the person inside the politician. It shines a window to his soul and tells us everything we need to know about him. When he speaks of compassion for people, we know he is a phoney becuase of his KKK membership.
When people on the Left such as yourself speak to so called compassion, not doing harm to others, tolerance, etc. etc., we know you are a phoney because of the one issue of abortion. It shines a light on who you truly are inside, and all the phoney words in the world will never change who you are.
This is why I will always speak of abortion when you hypocrites start preaching against Christians (who are pro life).
You keep asking the same stupid question when you already know the answer. I realize those on the Left hate any conversation of abortion because it shows your true selves.
This is why you constantly judge Christians. They shine a light on your true selves.
I always laugh at " Christian " hypocrites like you and Now A stain who have never read the bible as when it's pointed out the god you fawn and crawl to fully approves of abortion and infanticide ; your last response to this was " you're taking it out of context " so I'm still waiting for you to answer what's the right " context " for god to demand abortion ?
I'm waiting !!!!! You can get you're fellow bile /bible "scholar " Stain to help you ....so let's refresh your memory god supports no restriction abortions but you disagree with god ,
Courtesy evil bible ... read it again and praise your aborting god ,
Hosea 9:11-16 Hosea prays for God’s intervention. “Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. . .Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.” Clearly Hosea desires that the people of Ephraim can no longer have children. God of course obeys by making all their unborn children miscarry. Is not terminating a pregnancy unnaturally “abortion”?
Numbers 5:11-21 The description of a bizarre, brutal and abusive ritual to be performed on a wife SUSPECTED of adultery. This is considered to be an induced abortion to rid a woman of another man’s child.
Numbers 31:17 (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.” In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus.
Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the “their women with child shall be ripped up”. Once again this god kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.
2 Kings 15:16 God allows the pregnant women of Tappuah (aka Tiphsah) to be “ripped open”. And the Christians have the audacity to say god is pro-life. How and the hell is it that Christians can read passages where God allows pregnant women to be murdered, yet still claim abortion is wrong?
Infanticide:
1 Samuel 15:3 God commands the death of helpless “suckling” infants. This literally means that the children god killed were still nursing.
Psalms 135:8 & 136:10 Here god is praised for slaughtering little babies.
Psalms 137:9 Here god commands that infants should be “dashed upon the rocks”.
The murdering of children:
Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”
Judges 11:30-40 Jephthah killed his young daughter (his only child) by burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord for he commanded it.
Psalms 137:8-9 Prayer/song of vengeance “0 daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”
2 Kings 6:28-29 “And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.”
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”
As I have said before, I stop reading after your first judgmental rhetoric of old testament verses taken out of context. I hope you spent a lot of time rewriting the same things over and over again.
When you start quoting the new testament Christian scripture, I might give you a response, but then you would have nothing to spew your bigotted judgemental lies against Christians.
Judgemental rhetoric ???? I'm quoting directly from the book you've never read the bible , so for the 100th time when is abortion by god in the " right context " Bet you cannot answer again ?
So you agree with abortion when god is doing it ? OR You disagree with your abortionist god ?
Bet you wont answer because you or Stain can't ?
So you're admitting your god's immorality in the Old Testament because you keep wanting to talk about the New Testament where the never changing god changed into a ...... good god
You don't even know the Ten Commandments are from the Old Testament and how do you explain the New Testament approves of slavery ...... you're hopeless at this , have you never read the bile / bible ? Don't answer its obvious you haven't , get your buddy Stain to help you .
I'm glad you admit what I'm quoting from the bible is bigoted , if you call direct quotes from the bible lies well you better get on to god and tell him
So thanks for answering. You have no new testament verses speakng to God supporting the killing of innocent life. Thanks for finally admitting it.
I could not care less what God told people to do during old testament Jewish law during times of war and brutalities from the evils of mankind.
I'm sure there were times when God told Jews to kill even the children of the evil tribes during those times but that does not mean he supports taking innocent life for aboslutely no reason other than conveinence. This is what abortions does but fools like you refuse to admit it. Hypocritical fools like judge even God for things you constantly support.
God can kill even women and children as he did with the flood to deal with evil people, but he does not say this is how life should be. He says he hates the shedding of innocent blood and even had penalties for when someone accidentally caused a woman to lose her unborn baby.
Where are those verses? Oh, that's right, you only cherry pick your verses to give people the wrong impression of God.
You are a anti Christian bigot and i feel sorry for your wife.
You have no new testament verses speakng to God supporting the killing of innocent life.
This false dichotomy you are trying to create between the old and new testaments is preposterously retarded, given that they are two halves of the exact same book. Are you saying God was justified to give orders to kill homosexuals because he didn't repeat himself in the section of the Bible which is about Jesus, not God?
I could not care less what God told people to do during old testament Jewish law
You don't care about your own God's wishes and laws?
Is it possible, just possible, that you are seriously mentally ill?
You're welcome hypocrite 👌 Have I not 🙀 Thank you for admitting you haven't read the New Testament as well .....Also I told you slavery is totally supported in the New Testament but you've no valid answer for that either have you ?
Matthew
Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." 3:10, 12
Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17
Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30
Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14
Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 7:19
"The children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 8:12
Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21
Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32
Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen 19:24). 10:14-15
Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21
Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and "able to destroy both soul and body in hell." 10:28
Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." 10:34-36
Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. 11:20-24
Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." 13:41-42, 50
Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See Ex 21:15, Lev 20:9, Dt 21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7
"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." 15:13
Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it's better to be "maimed" than to suffer "everlasting fire." 18:8-9
In the parable of the unforgiving servant, the king threatens to enslave a man and his entire family to pay for a debt. This practice, which was common at the time, seems not to have bothered Jesus very much. The parable ends with this: "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you." If you are cruel to others, God will be cruel to you. 18:23-35
"And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors." 18:34
God is like a rich man who owns a vineyard and rents it to poor farmers. When he sends servants to collect the rent, the tenants beat or kill them. So he sent his son to collect the rent, and they kill him too. Then the owner comes and kills the farmers and rents the vineyard to others. 21:33-41
"Whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder." Whoever falls on "this stone" (Jesus) will be broken, and whomever the stone falls on will be ground into powder. 21:44
In the parable of the marriage feast, the king sends his servants to gather everyone they can find, both bad and good, to come to the wedding feast. One guest didn't have on his wedding garment, so the king tied him up and "cast him into the outer darkness" where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 22:1-14
The end of the world will be signaled by wars, famines, disease, and earthquakes (6-7). And that's just "the beginning of sorrows" (8). Next believers will be hated and killed by unbelievers (9), believers will hate and betray each other (10), false prophets will fool people (11), iniquity will abound and love wax cold (12). But hey, if you make through all that, you'll be saved (13).
Only one more thing will happen before the end comes: the gospel will be preached throughout the world (14). Well, that and the abomination of desolations will stand in the holy place (15), many false Christs and false prophets will show great signs and wonders (24), the sun and moon will be darkened and the stars will fall (29), the sign of the son of Man will appear in the sky, everyone on earth will mourn, and then, finally, the great and powerful son of Man will come in all his glory (30).
Oh, and all these things will happen within the lifespan of Jesus' contemporaries (34).
Or maybe not. Jesus was talking about things he knew nothing about (36). (See Mark 13:32.) 24:3-51
Jesus had no problem with the idea of drowning everyone on earth in the flood. It'll be just like that when he returns. 24:37
God will come when people least expect him and then he'll "cut them asunder." And "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 24:50-51
The parable of the cruel and unjust master
The kingdom of heaven is like a rich man who distributed his wealth to his servants while he traveled. He gave five talents (a talent was a unit of money, worth about 20 years of a worker's wages) to one servant, two to another, and one to a third. When he returned, the servant with five talents had made five more, the servant with two made two more, but the servant with one talent only had the talent his master entrusted to him. The master rewarded the servants that invested his money (without his permission -- what would have happened if the stock market went down during their master's travels?) and took the talent from the single-talent servant and gave it to the one with ten talents. "For unto every one that hath shall be given .. but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath." Then the cruel and unjust master cast the servant who carefully protected his master's talent into the "outer darkness: [where] there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 25:14-30
The servant who kept and returned his master's talent was cast into the "outer darkness" where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." 25:30
Jesus judges the nations. 25:31-46
Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an "everlasting fire." 25:41
Jesus says the damned will be tormented forever. 25:46
Mark
Schooled again "Christian " 🙀
So you don't care God aborted babies because the babies were " evil " you're some fucking hypocrite aren't you ?
So god had penalties for people causing a woman to lose her child but had no problem saying " dash the infants heads against rocks " got ya 👌
I gave you several abortion verses want some more ?
I don't have to give the "wrong impression " of your God to me it's obvious but you support abortion once god does it making you a special type of hypocrite
I'm not anti Christian my wife would disagree with your assessment I'm anti hypocrite as in you and Stain and your guts aren't Christians you're hate filled bigots and you're a supporter of abortion because as you said " the babies were evil "
Thanks again for wasting your time proving you have NOTHING! I hope you spent a lot of time writing all that. I guarantee you that other bigots are the only ones wasting their time reading all your dsyfunctional insecure hatred.
Yes we all know there is a Hell for thoe who choose sefish evil lives, versus living loving forgiving moral lives.
The New Testaent says children will not go to Hell. No one will go to Hell under the age of accountability.
I want you to take a novel, and read one sentence out of one of the chapters ok?
Lets says the sentence says...... I hope they blow up that house with every person in it including the wives and children.
Without reading and understanding the entire chapter, you would have no clue why the person said that. You would believe he was a blood thirsty killer.
Now after reading the entire chapter, you find out that the people living in that house had raped and burned alive his wife. Then the wives of the killers stabbed one of his children to death, and the one of their children had thrown a bomb into his house killing his other children.
What do you think the father might have said after losing his family to the brutality of the entire family next door?
He would have said kill them all so this evil is prevented from ever happening again.
This type of brutality is what Jewish people lived with from Muslims in other tribes. We see it happening today.
You can keep judging God for things he said, without understanding the context but it makes you a bigotted fool. You need to quote the entire chapter and verse if you want people to understand the context.
But you won't because you are a deceptive bigot.
What's so laughable is that hypocritical fools like you and most Liberals support the very things you are calling atrosities from God, but they are supporting it for mere convienence.
You actually support the right to kill an innocent VIABLE unborn baby for any reason, including special needs babies (for merely being different). These babies will not be raised in terrorist families and someday murder others.
These are no different from you or I and hypocrites like you support purposely killing them.
FOOL HYPOCRITE! You are thousand times more evil than anything you say God supported.
I know I wasted my time as you're too stupid for a bible expert like me to educate .
My words are straight from the bible so I'm delighted you agree you realise its dysfunctional .
Good try but the bible does say children will go to hell try reading it again .... slowly ; and no god commanded children to be aborted you agreed because as you said " the children were evil" remember now ?
But your God and you totally support no restriction abortions so why are you so upset ?
You never asked me my position on abortion you hypocrite so why are you projecting your total support of no restriction abortions on me ?
God supported the killing of those connected to evil tribes knowing they would someday also be taught to kill. He did not support taking life simply for the sake of killing AS DO YOU!
You dare speak to what God (the creator of mankind) did for reasons we will never competely understand, while people like you support a thousand times worse brutality for mere convienence.
Why would I ask you your position on abortion when you elect those who support it? That makes you as guilty as they are. I bet there were Germans who said they did not believe in murdering Jews, while supporting the Nazi's!
Words mean nothing. Your action in the voting booth means everything.
You are not stupid. The Biblical word is "brute" or "brutish"....or "fool". The devil is not stupid, he is brutish yet he is no fool, he believes in God. You are fooled, and you love it.
Now readers, brace yourselves for the likely tirade to follow.
I DO object to people that INSIST I am stupid because I don't think and do exactly what they think I should do, especially when there are millions of people around the world that think differently.
I know I'm pointing this out again but there is a debate now that suggests those who believe in God aren't as smart as Atheists. It's both sides that are capable of doing this but it really seems like, if we all just got over ourselves we could really be better for it. Intelligence isn't limited to what you believe or don't believe.
I am not one of those who measure intelligence by ones belief. I hold NO objection to anyone following ANY religion or not. However there are those on here who have called me stupid, idiot, and a few other choice names. There are people in ALL religions that are far more intelligent than I or you, or the ones on CD with the loudest, most critical "bully-pulpits" that seem to gleefully consider my "decent into hell" as their personal entertainment. They can believe what they wish. I think THEIR belief shows THEIR intelligence level and it is far below many within their OWN religion, it is more like fanaticism. There are those, also, in every religion.
Oh Lordy, I think you are talking about Nowa with the whole "decent into Hell" quote he uses. I just can't take him seriously. At. All. But then, he thinks because I have Wiccan and Pagan friends that I must, by proxy, be a witch and in league with Satan (even though I've tried explaining the difference before to him). He is intentionally ignorant which is the worst kind of stupid out there. It's one thing to be ignorant, but to refuse knowledge and fact because it doesn't fit with an agenda is a dangerous mindset.
You have no proof that you are not on your way to fry like an eternal sausage in Hell, yet you believe it.
You have no proof that you do not need God to save you and keep you from eternal dying, yet you believe it.
Your faith is blinder than the grave, and dumber than a rock.
And your mindless definition of faith is something like a juvenile delinquent parrot child hatched from atheistic parent parrots.
Faith is what you act upon, expecting results according to your belief.....whether your belief is right or wrong, it is what you act upon. If you believe that there is no such thing as sin, and you determine your own moral values.....then you act accordingly; doing whatever you feel suits you at any given moment....you act according to your faith, whatever faith you have....and everybody has faith in something. If you say you have no faith in anything you cannot prove, you are a liar. You cannot prove that you have the right to live outside of Hell. If you believe that there is no Hell, or if you believe there is a Hell but you are too good to be imprisoned there forever, then you are believing things for which there is no proof and you are hoping that you are right. Declaring that it is impossible for you to be proven wrong will not keep you out of the fire of Hell.....though as you fry like an eternal sausage, you are still free to believe it is not real or forever.
Eternal sausage 😂😂😂 I bet your extended family run when they see a hand wringing hypocrite like you approach reeking of alcohol and brandishing a book you've never read as in the bible ; a little tip if you ever visit our shores over here and mention " eternal sausages " you will be hospitalised for your own good , we are very charitable that way 😉
I am a Christian, and I agree with the statement that there is no conclusive proof that God exists. That's essentially what the word "Faith" means: Believing in something without a guarantee.
There is proof (through historical evidence) that a man named Jesus existed at the time that he was supposed to have existed. But there is no proof that he was the Son of God. I believe that he was. However, that is my belief that I wouldn't try to push on someone. Just as I know Atheists don't want Christians coming up to them and telling them reasons why "what they believe is wrong", (reasonable) Christians don't want Atheists doing the same, and wants to just be left alone, and to leave others alone.
Faith doesn't need to be such an upsetting thing, nor should it be a method through which to disqualify one's intelligence. Christians and Atheists both use the "You do/don't believe in God argument, so that means that you're dumb."
You can believe/not believe in God, and be able to solve a trigonometric equation. Belief doesn't have anything to do with intelligence. Everyone grow up, start acting like normal fucking people, and just leave people whose beliefs oppose your own alone.
Proof is a concept from a different paradigm than that of faith, which is why faith cannot be proved. Faith is fundamentally not in the game of proving things.
Please do not read this as you know I have said these things many times before and you hate me for it....and I don't care for your spiteful responses. You can ban me if you like, I don't care about that either. I have planted seeds of truth here; that's all I'm here for and if all my work is done here, then it is done...praise the Lord!
No. You cannot prove to a person who is sitting on a train track that the approaching train is going to kill him if that person will not believe you. When the train smashes the guy, it's too late.
If a person will not believe that the sky is blue, you cannot prove to them that the sky is actually blue.
Everybody is free to choose to believe God is there or to believe He is not there. God gives that freedom because love and freedom are two sides of the same coin. You are free to believe God is not there if you want to believe that. . His love never changes and you are free to keep yourself separated from Him forever in your chosen unbelief. Your unbelief changes nothing and the only promise of unbelief is death....unbelief cannot promise exemption from Hell. Believing there is no God will not get rid of God....it will only keep you separated from Him by your own choice.
I cannot speak for Dermot but as someone who does not believe in any god or the supernatural I can assure you that your promise of Hell for unbelievers has no validity for atheists. You will not be heeded. It comes down to disagreement where neither side can persuade the other.
Why do you sound so bitter, and why do you try to twist things I am saying in a way that misrepresents me? I do not promise Hell to you or to anybody else. If you get saved, you will not be dying forever in the fire of Hell as you are dying now. I can tell you that if you will not believe on God the Savior, you will not be saved from eternal damnation in Hell. That is not a promise from me, or a threat, it is simply a fact. I cannot promise Hell for you because you can be saved from it and if I promised Hell for you I would then be proven to be a liar. If you really believe it Hell's reality cannot possibly be true, why do you bother to read about it and fight against it? Maybe you should spend some time fighting against the devil to be sure you are covering everything you don't want to believe in.
If you heed me or not, that's up to you. You might think you speak for everybody, but in reality you only speak for yourself. Some, though a small percentage of the population, actually listen to the gospel message and believe. They will not heed you any more than I will heed you...you can't stop the gospel message, you can only seal your own doom if you will not believe it.
Admittedly, atheists can be tough nuts to crack...but it sure is awesome when the light of the gospel shines through to one of them and they get saved. I understand that it's a waste of time with most atheists, trying to tell them the good news by which they can be saved from their sins. Maybe it's a waste of time talking to you....so I leave this for others who I am unaware may be reading.
One more thing....I can assure you that your insistence of Hell having no validity will not keep you from falling into the fire.
I guess you are not paying attention. I think I made it pretty clear that it is impossible to prove to you that God is there if you will not believe He is there. You choose to believe God is not there, not even eternity in the fire of Hell roasting like an eternal turkey will convince you that God is God and He is there.
If He appeared before you in all of His glory, you would only want to get away from Him, you would not believe He is God.
If He came down from Heaven in human form and walked among us, you would not believe it is Him who is God.
You choose to believe that it is impossible for you to know God, so you won't know.....and me nor anything can prove you wrong even though you are wrong.
You are arguing in favor of your own death, you are opposing yourself, opposing your own life and losing it all...for good reason the Bible says "The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God".
God proves Himself........it is not my job to prove that God is God. You set up a mental block wall in your mind thinking you have eliminated God from existing. All you are doing is keeping yourself separated from Him, and He is the only One who can save you. You are embracing death when if you had any common sense you would seek God to find out how you can be saved and be sure you are saved....but you are lost and I guess you like being lost so off you go...that's your choice, genius.
In truth, all I need to be saved from are some people who call themselves Christians. If anything, they are proof that there is no god because if there were he would have shut up these hypocrites.
In truth, you deserve to die for your sins and you need to be saved from your sins.
Talk about a hypocrite, talk about yourself. It is you who refuses to admit that you deserve death for your sins. I know I'm a sinner who deserves to burn in Hell forever. You are the hypocrite. pretending to be as good as God and then showing yourself to be evil....you are the hypocrite.
You need to be saved from your sins. You are dying, dying people need to be saved. Is reality that difficult so you can't understand simple truth?
You need to be saved from your sins. If you feel that you need to be saved from Christians, shouldn't you be killing Christians?
When I tell you that you are dying, you feel I am threatening you? Is your world that fragile, so when I tell you the truth you feel threatened? What are you going to do?
Cry baby....nobody threatened you. If you feel threatened, your problem is with God and since you show some fear in feeling threatened, maybe there is hope for you.
I'm not reading your stuff anymore, you are just a lying punk thinking you are better, smarter, and stronger than God, you are a fool and if you won't repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, the One who gave His life's blood to cover your sins is the one whose blood you are trampling and you will see Him as your Judge if not your Savior.
My sins are covered by His blood, your blood is on your own head.
copy and paste one time that I threatened you. Your blood is on your own head, you are responsible for your own sins, you are clinging to your own death, you are doing it to yourself .......idiot.
You hate the truth, so you feel hated when I tell you the truth...you act childish, I really thought you were a child. You sure act like one. Try to act like a man.
Well I sure would like this annoying lie to stop appearing on my profile page, but here it is ......
You are a liar, copy and paste one time that I threatened you.
Telling you that you are on your way to Hell is caring, warning you of the danger you are in. You hate me for telling me the truth. It is you who is the hypocrite, and it is you who is threatening saying you need to be saved from Christians and God should shut them up. What are you going to do, punk?
Your false accusation, liar, is a threat against me. Resorting to such a tactic only shows that your ideas are void of solid ground. You can't stand on your own beliefs so you have to resort to false accusations, insults, whatever....typical atheist garbage.
If you feel you need to be saved from Christians, and you feel God should shut Christians up.....it sounds to me like you want Christians to be killed and maybe you actually do kill them yourself. Are you a killer?
It is about your choice of believing God is not there. Nobody can prove to you that God is there when you will not believe He is there. God will not force you to trust Him.
Don't read my stuff anymore. I have asked many times that all of the fool atheists here stop reading my stuff. I really don't want to waste time with you who are hell-bent on proving that you are as good as God.
People can change their minds about their beliefs. If you will not, then you will not........to say nobody can be persuaded to change their beliefs, you must think you are God.....you sure talk like you think you are God......pretending to have authority, I'm trying not to say you are a joke while I laugh at you.......then you would whine and say I'm unkind. The truth is hard to take when you are proud.
I'm not like you and your buddy Foamwithin and your constant jabs and insults demonstrate the hypocrisy of one who claims to follow Jesus .
You say everyone is free to make their own choices yet according to you if I make a rational choice not to believe in a supernatural entity you call god well then I must roast in hell forever ?????
You don't worship a god you worship a Mafia boss who says " you sure have a nice life here but if you don't pay homage to me and accept me as your boss that's going to end in a fiery eternal torture "
There is no believer who can reveal God to an individual, it is only God that reveals. Most human beings have a very simplistic conception of causality, it is tendency to blame the cause of an event on any one event or object in creation. Truly, the entire universe, all of creation, all of existence is weighing down on you to make the experience you are having possible. God created everything, God is the Source Of All. God is The One Who Reveals. God proves God. The one who hardens and softens hearts is God. Is your heart is hardened? Surely it is because God willed it to be so.
it is impossible to prove anything to someone who rejects what is presented to them.
Those who demand proof and dismiss the non-proven as being non-existent are taking themselves as being the judge of these matters. Despite what the atheist may say, they do have a god. As they do not respect any authority put into place, they take themselves as being the authority. As such, the god they worship is themselves. This is why the atheist, who is intrinsically arbitrary, embraces such arguments such as "You say there is a God? Prove God? You can't prove God? God doesn't exist!".
What am I on about? Well, ladies and gentlemen, it's high time you have a lesson in English.
Merriam-Webster defines "proof" as "the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact"
As such, as long as the atheist stubbornly declares, "There is no proof!" and doesn't have a mind change... They are not technically wrong. Nothing is proof to them, because they are atheists. Arbitrariness and godlessness are intrinsic to each other.
I can never prove God to an atheist. The one who reveals is God, and the realization of God is a witness to the last day, the day of resurrection, and Salvation itself. There is only one savior, and that is God Almighty.
Some vessels are made for honor, and some for dishonor. It was all done by God's will.
I can only speak for myself. What proved God to me?
When I allowed it to become real in my heart that God really is The Supreme and Ultimate Reality.
I always had words for it, not always those. When God has been realized, there is no way to undo it. Some things just cannot be unseen. To recognize God, and then for it to be made real?
Conversion by nature is proof that God exists to that individual.
The arbitrary atheist, who does not really believe in science, will demand proof. They make appeals to science when it is convenient to their whim, but are they themselves scientific? No, they understand nothing. They believe what they read, and they believe based on whether or not it reinforces their pride. They parrot off things they heard those they think have authority say. They do it because it not because they know, but because they don't have to think. They have such a strong faith, and what has convinced them of their faith is all the miracles they see surrounding them. They are fooled. Totally duped if they think for a second that this makes them scientific. It's easy to cite "science", but it isn't really "science" or "knowledge" to them.
If you don't believe in God, how can you even be a good scientist? You don't believe there is ultimate reality? What is science to you then? Magic, what else?
The god of the atheist is themselves, and pride is their credo. They'll say anything they think might be convincing. If they acknowledge God as being The Supreme and Ultimate Reality, they would understand how self defeating it is to argue against God. If they acknowledge God as being The Supreme and Ultimate Reality, they would understand how it is more of an extraordinary claim to say that God does not exist than it is to say "God exists". There can be no doubt, God exists. There is nothing surer than the existence of God.
There is nothing I can say, do, accomplish by myself. I do it all because of God. There is nothing I can give God that God hasn't already given me. There is nothing that I can do to make God greater. There is nothing I can do to further God's will. God's will is done right here on Earth. The Kingdom of God is here, God is sovereign.
Who are you to judge another's servant? It isn't me who you should be looking at. I must become less so that God becomes more. I'm pointing to The Truth. Not what I think about The Truth, not what I say about The Truth, but THE TRUTH.
That is The One you should be looking at.
God is The Necessary Existence. The Ultimate Reality. The Supreme Being.
All the proof any unbeliever needs is right in front of them should they choose to accept it as such. Believe in God because of God! What other reason do you need?
What can possibly make more sense? The Supreme and Ultimate Reality. God is The Greatest.
In philosophical terms, your argument commits a “bare assertion fallacy” i.e. the argument is assumed to be true merely because it says it is true, and it offers no supportive premise other than qualities inherent in the original statement it purports to prove. After all, the same ontological argument could be used to prove the existence of any perfect thing at all.
You've been corrected several times , you backed out of the challenge debate you issued so why persist ?
Your arguments were beaten two weeks ago , move on ....
"All the proof any unbeliever needs is right in front of them should they choose to accept it as such."
This is such a vapid statement, what proposition could you not accept with this logic?
I've explained this to you before but not believing in X does not mean you think X is false. For example, if I have a jar of peanuts, the number of peanuts are either odd or even. If I don't believe the number of peanuts is even, that does not necessarily mean I think the number of peanuts is odd. It just means I'm not in a position to believe the number is even based on the information I have.
I don't know what would convince me that God exists, but if he does then he should know and have the ability to do it. He hasn't. That isn't my problem.
If something can be demonstrated within the context of reality then it is reasonable to believe. Science is the best tool we currently have for investigating reality. There are many reasons why this is the case, but the core of it is that scientist care about truth. That is their agenda.
Dermit, Elroy, and all of the regulars here, please do not read this or reply to me, I'm not talking to you.
It is about your choice of believing God is not there. Nobody can prove to you that God is there when you will not believe He is there. God will not force you to trust Him, He will not force you to believe Jesus is God who rose bodily from the dead ........He can't force you to trust Him. You will either trust Him or you won't, and apparently you never will trust Him so you won't be saved.
