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Can we use Non-Violence to destroy terrorism?
Non-violence cannot tackle terrorism: Dalai Lama
The Dalai Lama, a lifelong champion of non-violence candidly stated that terrorism cannot be tackled by applying the principle of ahimsa because the minds of terrorists are closed.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/nonviolence-cannot-tackle-terrorism-dalai-l.../411980/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahimsa
A resounding YES!
Side Score: 335
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What? Are you on drugs?
Side Score: 365
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The Dahli Lama is right. The current terrorists are completely brainwashed, and there is absolutely no way to reason with them. They have a death wish, and they want everyone to die with them. But it's not as simple as just blowing up large portions of the earth where they may or may not reside. Because while non-violence cannot deter the current terrorists. Non-violence is the only thing that discourages new terrorists. And for every innocent civilian killed in Palestine, Iraq, or Afghanistan by any western force, two or three new terrorists are made, with a zealous will to kill as many as they can, even if it costs their own life. Luckily the days or "cowboy" diplomacy are over. Side: in the long run
nah, it's more like al-Jazeera propaganda that create new terrorists. when an innocent dies, they blame it on the Americans NO MATTER WHAT. So, if we start to take it easy even more (which has been hurting our troops a shit load already), we are just being counter-productive. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
here's the source itself. and for the Troop's perspectives (since you obviously think they're murdering innocent people all the time), read "Lone Survivor". Side: What? Are you on drugs?
I could have google Al Jazeera myself. Show me an example, I said. Re Lone Survivor: Anecdotal evidence is not admissable in a debate. Look instead at patterns of behavior. The US military has many bona fide heroes, but WAY more people who are frighteningly psychotic given the chance. Side: A resounding YES!
very much agree. non violence is not the answer. but violence only creates a bigger problem. we can not sit and wait nor can we attack. terrorism is very real. it will never go away, it will always be a problem and the way we deal with it will always have negative impacts. its a lesser of two evils Side: A resounding YES!
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Maybe we could try the technique used with annoying children, and I'm completely serious about this: They do something bad, we don't take notice. I know this sounds extreme, but maybe we could work somewhere in the middle. Don't give them all of the media coverage. Don't let them get the satisfaction of chaos in the Western world. When/If Osama releases another video, give it to the CIA and the President and don't play it. They might notice that they are blowing all of their children, neighbors, and friends to bits, and they are getting nowhere with it. If they still insist on killing their fellow countrymen, let them. Let it happen, because by then we have tried counter-violence and non-violence. There really would be little more to do to stop these terrorists. Maybe then we could re-evaluate the situation and come up with an idea. Side: A resounding YES!
The Dalai Lama's government in exile has proven CIA connections, and thus is tainted such that its political opinion cannot be considered objective. Even if there were no connection, he shouldn't be treated as the foremost authority on peace. The title of Dalai Lama was more of a Pope/ Feudal Monarch before the illegitimate Chinese Invasion. As far as violence and peace go: Let's say I live in a large family. You kill my sister (For Oil? :P). Any reason at all. If I then express murderous rage against you, what would have been the best way to avoid it? Not kill my sister, or kill me, enraging the rest of our siblings? Yes, I am the king of terrible analogies. They are often brainwashed, yes. Instead of contemplating that, ask yourself how you may be brainwashed. Instead of by a manipulative Imam, by the incredibly efficient Capitalist machine. Advertising, entertainment media, most news sources, the educational system-- all have an interest in keeping you ignorant of the whole story. It's easier to call them brainwashed maniacs than to explain that they too are people, with human motives for their actions. They are just as convinced of their righteousness as you are of yours. In essence, what I'm saying is that violence probably is an okay short-term answer to terrorism. Long-term, it will only incite more people to the cause until it can't be contained. A much better strategy would be to refrain from egregious exploitation and mass murder such that people don't want to crash planes into us. Side: A resounding YES!
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You cannot believe that you can just muscle your way through problems. Look at Gandhi, He was a firm believer in nonviolence and he helped set in motion the Indian Independence Movement. If Gandhi had taken the violent approach it would have never gotten close to accomplishing what was accomplished in India. It is not always appropriate just to pull out the big guns, sometimes it is better to use non-violence Side: A resounding YES!
first off all your argument is irrelevant. the government he protested peacefully against was not a terrorist group, it was great Briton with people in London who supported Gandhi. we are talking about terrorist, negotiating with a terrorist just shows they can get their way. if your child screams and yells for a cookie, do you give it to him? no he would think he could do it again to get a cookie later. if a terrorist group abducts or blows up a building then asks for money, land, or some other thing, do we give it to them? no they will do it again every time if they don't get their way. you must use force and knowledge to kill terrorist. not agree or negotiate terms with them after they slaughter innocents. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Wow, thats some poetic shit. I wonder to you roam around disagree with the people who boost about Americas greatest, or how their a force for good. I wonder to you post wise ass comments next to these people. You have no idea how much of a hippocrit you are do you. Side: A resounding YES!
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Would you prefer Al Qaeda? Are they better? If they are so much better, why don't you go live with them in their country and use your science degree to help them out? I'm sure that would be better than working for some blood sucking corporation ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
To remind you, there was a great leader, Subhas Chandra Bose who was killed in a plane crash. Just a accident or sabotage.. no one can say but if that great person existed then I think India would have gained it's independence long long back.... He beleived in violence against a violent govt. Gandhi ji surely gave us our must awaited independence and I respect him for that, but it was a deep dark and long process..... Why on earth do we make things complicated?????? Non-violence is a very good approach but not applicable in the 21st century where there is no place for humanity! A hard slap back on the person's face who slaps us just at that moment, why to put forward your face again to be slept hard AGAIN??????????????? Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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I have a deep philosophical commitment to the principle of non-violence. Not naive notions of non-violence so commonly associated with cowardly submission to tyrants but the kind of non-violence practiced by the truly powerful. It is an expression of desperate weakness to resort to violence. Here is an example: Suppose as you approached, there was a ten year old boy assaulting your kindergarten age daughter. You must act as immediately as possible to stop the attack. You shout stop! with no results when you see nice heavy rock you could bash his head with. Fortunately you ignore the panic induced violent impulse and act in a more admirable way by quickly and somewhat forcefully pulling the boy away and restraining him as opposed to delivering a blow. The point is that when we are staggeringly more powerful we need not resort to violence. If you equate non-violence with refusing to use force, then non-violence cannot help fight terrorism. If you think of non-violence as a deep commitment to prevent injuries whenever possible you are on a more enlightened path than the Dalai Lama. “Non-violence is the philosophy people adopt once they become sufficiently acquainted with the realities of serious personal conflict.” ~ Atypican Side: A resounding YES!
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'Hatred Never By hatred Is appeased in this world; By Love alone is it appeased This is an ancient law.' Also never speak harshly to anyone regardless of the situation you're in. 'Speak bit harshly to anyone. For those accosted will retort Painful in vindictive talk You may recieve blows in exchange.' That is why only Non-violence can destory terrorism. Side: A resounding YES!
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Non-violence can defeat terrorism if the terrorists-to-be are persuaded by peace. Terrorists mostly come from backgrounds that promote hatred and denigrate peace (relatively in comparison with western society). So they generally don't respect the peaceful protesters because they wont fight. Less-lethal weapons aren't exactly non-violence but they can be more useful. Side: A resounding YES!
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if they are persuaded by peace, then they are not terrorists. terrorists main goal is to strike terror in the hearts of the public. if we just roll over and let them wreak havoc, then, they will wreak havoc. they will not stop if we just stop fighting back. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Really, we need only look at what's happening today compared with history. America has been at war with 'terrorists' (not that I don't believe there are terrorists) in the Middle East for ... well, ever since America was a country. And in those 200+ years, we haven't really solved anything. The reason is because the villages in the Middle East aren't very well-educated, so when the Taliban go through there, the villagers won't think against what the terrorists say. Killing the Taliban won't work, because they can always recruit more from the uneducated masses. But enter in people like Greg Mortenson (who deserves a Nobel Prize) who builds schools in the Middle East, educating the villagers. With education, villagers are much more likely to think critically about what the Taliban say and realize that what the Taliban do is not right, and, thus, not join them. It is obvious the Taliban hate the schools, because there have been a few attacks from them on brand-new buildings. Obviously they feel threatened. Thus, we should do it more. More schools, less killing. Side: A resounding YES!
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Destroying terrorism using violence will never work. It is a band-aid solution that does not address the underlying problem, whether its poverty, discrimination, religion, corruption etc. Fighting with ideas is the way to defeat terrorism. We need to counter religious propoganda/indoctrination with rationality, counter corruption with transparency. Side: A resounding YES!
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Destroying terrorism using violence will never work. It is a band-aid solution that does not address the underlying problem, whether its poverty, discrimination, religion, corruption etc. Violence is a systemic problem with humanity that will probably never be entirely erased, so everything in a sense is a band-aid solution. We need to counter religious propaganda/indoctrination with rationality, counter corruption with transparency. In ideal circumstances, that would be fine, but unfortunately, there are always going to be groups of people who simply won't listen to reason. There will always be people who blame innocent people, and inspire violence. Until there comes a time when everyone will be reasonable, there can't be a peaceful solution. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
the reason they commit "terrorist" acts against us is because of our horrible foreign policy that plagues their countries. if we stopped fueling wars in the middle east and propping up dictators, and shipping over heavy artillery, and torturing, and establishing foreign military bases, and flying killer drones over their cities, and enacting kill causing deaths of millions of civilians, etc, then they wouldnt be trying to terrorize us, and besides, terrorist plots are rarely successful and even when they are its usually 5 or 6 people killed. compare that to the amount of innocent deaths caused by these wars Side: A resounding YES!
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Actually..., doing all those things you said we shouldn't be doing has put a damper on their terrorist activities. You may not know this but the radicals over there are like, "Look! Up in the sky..., it's a bird..., it's a plane..., it's a flying, killer, dro...." ;) Side: A resounding YES!
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When we stop arming, funding, and making more terrorists due to blowback of bombing innocent kids, families, ect then there wouldn't be nearly as many "Terrorists" as there are today. People ALWAYS looking for a CURE but not for the CAUSE. How to terrorists a threat to us? We have a the 2nd amendment. Truth is they are NOT a threat and nothing but a boogeyman so we can destabilize the middle east and try to justify more military spending for the war profiteers! Side: A resounding YES!
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You sound so impartial, here. You try to find solutions to problems, you dont point fingers, your not on the left or the right. The only person your fooling is yourself. Your an apologist for grave war crimes commited by your governement.I find that to be disgusting. Side: A resounding YES!
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Again, how do you expect that argument to hold up when your the one with 12924 arguments on this thing. I love the way you throw that at me and probably think, ya i got him good there. Then you probably go into your room and have a cry and a wank at the same time, while lamenting your lost youth spent on some shit debating site. You think im attention seeking, all i say to that my friend is 12924. Side: A resounding YES!
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Why would I think, " ya i got him good there." ???? I already told you a millions times, I don't do real debates. Why would I care if I win or lose or get an up vote or a down vote? I don't even know you, so why would I care what you think? Whatever anyone types on this site will never be used in a peace accord between Israel and Palestine to stop their fighting. Why would I take any of this seriously? Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Oh come on, i know you probably dont care a whole, i get that.I know, for the most part, you probably do just engage with people to make jokes but you know as well as i do thats theres a little bit more to it than that.When your arguing with someone you know you want to beat them (to a certain extent) whether you realise it or not, because you beleive your views to be correct, otherwise why argue in the first place.Ive seen plenty of your deabtes and alot of them are far from just fun and games.You might pretend to be facetious all the time but we both know your not alot of the time. Competition is natural, even when arguing with someone theres no point in denying it.Again(as usual), the only person your fooling is yourself. Side: A resounding YES!
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When your arguing with someone you know you want to beat them (to a certain extent) whether you realise it or not, because you beleive your views to be correct, otherwise why argue in the first place. Do you really think that I'm arguing with you? I'm flattered. I'm not trying and I'm succeeding ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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What facts? That human nature is what it is? I've always known that. If America were to get blowed up tomorrow, some other country would take its place and it would be back to business as usual. Most passionate people are young. They are idealistic. Then they grow old and realize that nothing's changed in thousands of years and they move on with their lives. Think about all the hippies in the 60's. Where are they now? They became the people they used to warn others about ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Look at that statement, do see anything wrong with it, anything at all. Ya bomb the hell out of them, let just drop all the nuclear weapons we have on the middle east. I said you should commit suicide cause i honestly beleive the world would be a much better place without you nutjobs. Side: A resounding YES!
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You make statement lioke that and then have the guile to say i need to educate myself, your a fuckin extremist, your as nad as Al Queda member im afraid and thinking not is only a self delusion, dot he world a favour and kill your self seriously do it do it. Whatever problems you have there only gona get worse with time , think about it its much easier just top yourself. You wont be missed i can assure you. Side: A resounding YES!
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Im not angry, im irish were not insecure people like you americans, i say what think. I'm just stating an opinion that i beleive the majority of people who argue with you will agree with (whole heartledly) because you dont know how to debate or listen to reason or the facts. I'm not little either im 6 foot 2 and i weigh 13.5 stone (~180lb). Side: A resounding YES!
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Oh, Irish! Well that explains it then. You're just drunk ;) OK, I think that's all of them. See you tomorrow. ;) BTW, want to become my ally? That way you will be notified every time I post something. Or maybe you want to join my community. http://jaded.createdebate.com/ I really think you like my arguments. You keep on coming back for more ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Oh I see. We're dishing out the punishment of death for people building tunnels? People who could well be building tunnels to bring in much needed food and water? Obviously it has to be weapons because, after all, that's all these simple minded muslims know; how to kill. I would have thought someone from a free and democratic country would have understood that catching someone building a tunnel isn't legitimate grounds to kill them. Arrest them, interrogate them, fill the tunnels back in? All of these would be sensible options during a ceasefire. Nope... death is obviously the only option for these tunnel building bastards. Regardless, you continually make ignorant statements about hamas breaking the ceasefire, and the absolute fact of the matter is that Isreal broke the ceasefire on November 4th. Side: A resounding YES!
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That's not what I said at all, and just goes to show the stupid "if you're not with us, you're against us" attitude that some people have towards this stupid war on terror. We don't know what they were doing. Isreal will say smuggling weapons. Palastinians will say smuggling in food and water as the Isreali checkpoints were refusing to allow in humanitarian aid. You've obviously made your mind up which one you believe without any actual evidence. That right there is what I mean by ignorance. You've obviously decided which side you believe and will lap up anything they say and instantly dismiss anything the other side says. I listen to the things being said from either side with a very skeptical ear, as both are engaged in a large propganda campaign at the moment. As I said, arrest them and interrogate them if need be and actually try to find out what they were doing and present some facts to back that up. That's how free and democratic countries such as the US and UK do (or at least should do) things. To shoot them on sight simply on the suspicion that they are building tunnels to smuggle weapons is absolutely wrong. Side: A resounding YES!
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You say you listen to both sides but every sentence you have ever typed on this site is in defense of the terrorists. You've obviously made your mind up which one you believe without any actual evidence. That right there is what I mean by ignorance. You've obviously decided which side you believe and will lap up anything they say and instantly dismiss anything the other side says. Side: A resounding YES!
"You say you listen to both sides but every sentence you have ever typed on this site is in defense of the terrorists." Thank you for proving my point. You have a terrible "if you're not with us, you're against us" attitude, and its obvious that no amount of sense or logic can ever motivate you to look at a situation from both sides. Just because I take a step back from situations and look at them from the view of both sides, I am "defending terrorists." If I don't agree with your factless baseless bullshit, I'm a terrorist sympathiser. You used the exact same argument before when I called you out for calling muslims ragheads. "You've obviously made your mind up which one you believe without any actual evidence." Actually, I clearly said I believe niether. Niether side can show me sufficient evidence at the moment. In that position, I have to side on the fact that killing people just for catching them building tunnels is NOT okay. That's my default moral position. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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You have a terrible "if you're not with us, you're against us" attitude, and its obvious that no amount of sense or logic can ever motivate you to look at a situation from both sides. So why bother arguing with me. Never try to teach a pig to dance. My position is that they have both committed atrocities and I really don't care. The world will never allow the Palestinians to destroy the state of Israel and the Palestinians are currently not strong enough to destroy the state of Israel. So why don't they just give up until they are strong enough. Saying that Israel did this and it was wrong and the Palestinians did that and they were wrong is a waste of time because you will always find someone who will justify those actions. You keep on trying to pigeon hole me into being and the side of Israel and against the Palestinians, Look at the the debate above. It has nothing to do with Israel and the Palestinians. It has to do with destroying terrorism and how non-violence will not work because terrorists are fanatics. You try to get me to believe a poorly made propaganda piece and get offended when I don't sympathize. The official at the very end was not done talking. He was cut off in mid sentence after uttering the words the interviewer was looking for. The qualifier for the words were purposely edited out. If you really believe that dribble, then I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you. Also, if you expect me to believe that we should frisk little old ladies at the airport instead of young, middle eastern men, then you have an uphill battle. I'm all for profiling. Same goes for the tunnel diggers. The fact that I don't believe the tunnel diggers are good Samaritans does not not mean that I'm for Israel. It means that I really could not care less about the tunnel diggers. If the roles were reversed, I'd make fun of Israel for being stupid enough to get captured. I've met Zionist in college. I don't like them. Zionists are fanatics and no better than Hamas. Anyway, that's my stance and if you try to pigeon hole me again I'll fart in your general direction ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
"So why bother arguing with me. Never try to teach a pig to dance." Imagine if the US gave up when it looked as if the English were going to give you a good kicking. "Saying that Israel did this and it was wrong and the Palestinians did that and they were wrong is a waste of time because you will always find someone who will justify those actions." This is exactly the point. Most of the things I read from you are justifications about why what Isreal is doing is okay. It's not okay. Both sides are completely and utterly wrong, but my point of contention is not your condemnation of the actions of Hamas; it's your justification of the actions of Isreal. "You keep on trying to pigeon hole me into being and the side of Israel and against the Palestinians" Joe, come on now. If we go back over your debates are we going to find anything else but condemnation of Palestine and justification of Isreal. I've often seen you make statements such as "Well, maybe they should stop rocketing Isreal then" when something is said about Palestine being attacked, but I've never ever seen you make a statement like "Well, maybe they should open their borders and allow humanitirian aid in" when something is said about Isreal being attacked. You and I both know that you favour Isreal in this conflict, and you'll find whatever excuse possible to justify what Isreal does. Even the argument that caused this exchange; "maybe palestine can stick to the ceasefire" was said as justification for Isreal's actions, when in fact it was Isreal that broke the ceasefire (which you again went on to try to justify). "You try to get me to believe a poorly made propaganda piece and get offended when I don't sympathize. The official at the very end was not done talking. He was cut off in mid sentence after uttering the words the interviewer was looking for. The qualifier for the words were purposely edited out. If you really believe that dribble, then I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you." That dribble is actually a BBC article; probably one of the most unbiased and professional news organisations in the world. But of course, it doesn't agree with your idea of what is going on, so it's immediately brushed aside as a "poorly made propoganda piece." Get a clue. Here are some more sources, maybe one of them will tickle your fancy: http://www.guardian.co. http://uk.youtube.com/ http://www.imemc.org/article/58372 http://www.antiwar.com/ips/ http://www.foxnews.com/story/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ http://www.liveleak.com/ "Also, if you expect me to believe that we should frisk little old ladies at the airport instead of young, middle eastern men, then you have an uphill battle. I'm all for profiling." I'm for profiling too. It make sense to manage your resources effectively, and the fact of the matter is that terrorism on western countries is normally performed by young muslim males. I don't agree with stopping and searching without a good reason though. "The fact that I don't believe the tunnel diggers are good Samaritans does not not mean that I'm for Israel. It means that I really could not care less about the tunnel diggers." Okay. Then please explain to me, if you don't care about either side, why it is acceptable for Isreal to rearm but isn't acceptable for Hamas to rearm? Would it have been justification to break the ceasefire if Hamas had caught Isreali soldiers transporting weapons supplied by the US along the Gazan border? Would you have said "Well, Isreal got caught rearming; they deserved to be instantly shot." My guess is that you wouldn't, would instead use it as an example of Hamas terrorism, and would immediately condemn Hamas for breaking the ceasefire. I do enjoy the fact that your constant insistance that you don't immediately support Isreal shows that you know, deep down, that your views about the conflict are wrong. Always remember that the only difference between the Isreal military and Hamas terrorists is funding. Side: A resounding YES!
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Okay. Then please explain to me, if you don't care about either side, why it is acceptable for Israel to rearm but isn't acceptable for Hamas to rearm? Because Israel won. It's like going to see a football game and the loosing side just keep on making plays when the game is over. It's quite annoying. The losers should just get used to the idea that they lost, get over it and move on with their lives. As it stands right now, lives are being lost needlessly. Hamas can't win. What the hell do they expect; for every Jewish man, woman and child to pack their bags and leave? That's just not going to happen. The reason I seem pro-Israel is because I see the terrorist as being mentally challenged. They are fighting a war that has already been lost using a tactic that has no chance in hell of being successful. I see them as being total idiots. It would be easier for me to sympathize with them if they would just do something that I can relate to like capitulating, signing a treaty and start building a Palestinian state. But as it is, I just find it hard, at best, to side with stubborn, mule headed, fanatics. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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I would just go over there and say to them, "Look, you don't like them and they sure as hell don't like you. So why don't you just go to an all out war. Last man standing wins. That way we don't have to hear either one of your people bitching and complaining about anything. I'm tired of the crap and I don't want to hear it anymore. I don't care." Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Why on earth to you create debating topics about terrorism (or what you percieve terrorism to be) if you dont care. You spend alot of time deabting these issues and when someone corners you in an argument you say "i dont care" to get out of it, your a sad man. Side: A resounding YES!
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Ha, i love it, seriously man, thats fuckin good, you do amuse me Joe, if nothin else. Do you think your insults have any effect on me,i mean really.You my friend are just a blind evolutionary function incapable of extracting yourself in any way from the culture into which you've indocrtrinated. I know we all products of our culture but you my friend are unbeleivable, sitting in your big house writing this stuff down, you must really think you have things figured out, dont you. Ha, seriously man i love it, i do. Keep um comin Joe. Side: A resounding YES!
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Thanks, i try you know. I try so hard, you know deep down inside im just craving other peoples approval, i dont what id do without. Its like an aphrodisiac for me, you know, like when i read your comment there i immediately noticed an increase in the blood flow to my penis, its throbbing and pulsating a little bit now. Side: A resounding YES!
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Actually, CB is what my Iraqi friends call you. They said that you should never let a camel into your tent because they are so stupid they bump into everything. They said you were the camel and CD was the tent. And after dealing with you, I have to agree with them. You are stupid. Hence your new nick name, CB ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Well im sorry but suppose ill have to disagree with you and your rich Iraqis friends. To be honest after dealing with you ive given up on the belief that older people have a richer understanding of life. I never really beleived it fully anyway but you've completely destroyed it.You my friend have a very one sided view of the world and you dont how to react to anyone who thinks any different. By you calling stupid, ha, i love it. Keep um comin buddy. Side: A resounding YES!
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It depends on what you view as good. Like America is responsible for advancing technology in ways that arent comparable to any country. Actually i dont need to tell when you asked me that question i type it into google and the first hit was this youtube video. It shows some of the great things your country has done. I acknowledge your country has done good things (again i appy that definition loosely) but they're completely unrelated to the kinds of things we've been discussing, you' know what i mean if you watch the video. Side: A resounding YES!
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It depends on what you view as good. Like America is responsible for advancing technology in ways that arent comparable to any country. Actually i dont need to tell when you asked me that question i type it into google and the first hit was this youtube video. It shows some of the great things your country has done. I acknowledge your country has done good things (again i appy that definition loosely) but they're completely unrelated to the kinds of things we've been discussing, you' know what i mean if you watch the video. http://www.youtube.com/ BTW i acknowledge that this isnt even close to a comprehensive list of all rthe good things America has done just incase you think it is. Side: A resounding YES!
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NO country would do better that not the point, if were ever going to prgress we have to stop the lies and acknowledge exactly what is going on. Your country needs to stop the facade and the hipocracy otherwise things will only continue as they have done. Can't you see that without truth bad things will happen, like im sure there are many in your country that would supprt war with Iran even though it would be completely unjustified. If you beleiev all the lies they tell you and you dont question their actions your giving free reign to commit their crimes. Side: A resounding YES!
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So Mahmoud Ahmadinejad wants only to create electricity. He does NOT want an atom bomb. The fact that he refuses to have another country provide fuel for his electricity generating nuclear reactor is of no consequence. The fact that he has thousands of centrifuges creating weapons grade nuclear fuel is purely fictional propaganda. Every country that thinks that Iran is trying to build a nuclear bomb is participating in American propaganda. He loves Israel and he would not consider attacking Israel. He has no ties to terrorists who would love to get their hands on a nuclear bomb and detonate it on American soil. Is this pretty much what you believe? Let me put it to you this way. I don't give a fuck what Mahmoud Ahmadinejad thinks or wants. I don't want him to have weapons grade nuclear capability. I sleep better at night knowing that there's one less person I have to worry about whether or not he wants to detonate a nuclear weapon on American soil. For all I know he shares your view that America is the largest terrorist organization on the planet. If that's the case, he may not be like you; he may be more inclined to attack the U.S. I don't want to take that chance and find out. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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No he wants the bomb, you can be sure of that. I dont want them to have it but unlike you i know they only want it for leaverage, they know if they ever used it on Isreal they be destroyed, again give these people some credit, they have richer history than anyone one this planet, the Meospotamian culture was the advanced civilisation when our decendents were shittin in hands and throwing at each other (exaggerated obviously), the Persian culture as well was ahead of it time, ive been to the country, they are a cultured people, much more so than those in your country, you can be sure of it. These are not stupid people and despite how the country has been portrayed in your media its quite a free society, i honestly beleive if America wasnt so agressive towards them the theocracy would have fallen out of favour a long time ago but you see Iran has a lot of leaverage even withou the bomb, they control alot of oil, they have lot of influence in the region, they missiles positiioned all alon there coast at the gulf oil wells, they can literally shut off the oil supply completely if attack. This is where they get there leverage. You see i agree with eberything you wrote your problem, and in my opnion every Americans problem is that they want there position in the world to be completely assured i.e. they want to hold all the cards, they want complete safety and power at the same time and your willing to do horrible things to other people in order to obtain it. Even what you just wrtoe leads me to beleive you would not oppose an invasion on Iran if your country was able to drum up enough phony evidence alla Iraq WMDs. You have no right to invade that country and kill the beautiful (yes the are incredibly beautiful, look up some of their women, unbeleivable) and cultured people of Iran, and you should have insight to realise you have no right. Side: A resounding YES!
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they know if they ever used it on Isreal they be destroyed Yes, so all they have to do is get some of it to some terrorist group and let them do the deed. I mean, it's not like the bomb is going to say on it, "Made in Iran." and even if it does say that, there won't be much of it left once it blows up. Regardless, I don't think we should give them the chance to get that kind of leverage. The consequences could be.... you guessed it, one million dead ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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You know what, you have no idea how biased you are, do you? You probably think you are not but believe me, you are. And it's pretty sad to. Especially since you are supposed to be a scientist. Maybe you did not mean a good scientist. Maybe you meant a mediocre scientist ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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You incapable of seeing your own folly arent you, and as a defense mechanism you through back the exact same argument to the person that has made the initial claim. Ive read through this debate and i can see im not alone in my frustration. First of all does what happened to the isreali army justified killing 1200 hundred civilians in cold.Think about it. 400 children too young to even know fuilly what was going on were killed in cold blood.White phosphurous was poured on them from above. Im a chemical engineering let me educate you on white phosphurous.It burns at over 600 celsius (that will burn the flesh right off your bones). When i lands on you its incredibly hard to remove, its got adhesive properties, its like a glue. If you put water on it, it speeds up the reaction and you get burned faster. Isreal was using this with U.S. backing even though its banned under the rules of war, they even denied it while it was being done and didnt leave any journalists into the area. You would have been a fine footsoldier in the Nazi army my friend, supporting actions like these without question. Side: A resounding YES!
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You have Iranian friends. You never mentioned that previously. Let me ask you this are they part of the diaspora that (elites just like Mubaraks or any other country you've tried to control, there are loads) fled the country when the theocracy was established. I think almost 1 millioni of these Iranians were given asylm in the US along with the brutal dictator the Sha, who they no doubtedly supported. Cause if they are (and i have no doubt they are) its a bit rich calling me a pussy considering they grew fat on their own peoples backs and then abandoned their conuntry at the first sign of danger. Fuck them its becasue of people like them that they kind of hardship institued by the regimes propped up by washington was ever allowed to come into being. They're opinions are probably just as twisted as yours. You know you can say what you like up there on your pedestle but the reality is your rich iraqis friends and your Iranians friends are the people dont speak for the majority despite what you'd like to beleive. I'm sure if i showed my "mad rantings" as you called them to most well read Iraqis and Iranians they'd agree wholeheartedly with my assessment.And i dont just tell myself that to make myself feel better, ok Joe. I able to tell my self that becasue i have a little thing called factual evidence backing me up and a sprinkling of common sense which is an alien concept to you. It doesnt take a genious to work out that most Iraqis are quite unhappy with America. At least the non elites, but im sure you know non of them, don you Joe. It also doesnt take a genious to work out that most Iranians hate America (again not the fuckin elites that allowed America to come into the country and prop up the Sha, and which then insured an era of inequality begun, and then high talied it out of there when the majority rose up) Ive been to Iran with my parents and we met many Iranians and lots of open minded students over there. Unbeleivably friendly peopel, they all hate the American government(FOR VERY GOOD FUCKING REASONS), many arent even religious. If you think these peopel will call what i say the rantings of lunatic your only deluding yourself. Side: A resounding YES!
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Then go live with them. Birds of a feather should flock together. But before you go, are you trying to tell me that there is no possibility that the only reason the American government back people like the Sha is because the middle east has always been a violent place (tribes constantly fighting each other). And that getting oil to the market on time from a place where there is constant fighting is difficult at best. That countries need a reliable source of oil. That governments are lazy and if someone says that they can stop the fighting and get the oil to market on time, then those countries are going to support that man until he proves incapable of making sure the oil gets to market on time. I mean, doesn't the paragraph above makes more sense and sounds more reasonable than, "American corporations enjoy killing brown people and stealing their oil!" Side: What? Are you on drugs?
You were doing OK until the end where you ran afoul of one of Godwin's corollaries which states that "once a comparison is made to Hitler or Nazis, whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress." Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Actually if you had done your reasearch and not listnened to what you are told from your governement you would know that it is Isreal who broke the ceasefire. They went onto the edge of the Gaza strip and killed 4 hahas militants (this wasnt widely reported but its the truth, i didnt make it up it what happened and has been documented.Again, look it up (if your capable). Then Isreal responds by massacuring 1400 people, 1200 of which were civilians,400 of which were children. They dropped white Phosphurous on civilians. This illegal to use even against a military force in war (not that this was a war, as it so called). Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Now whos the angry man?, sorry they didnt get me, fuckin hell, is that what you want to do to all the people who disagree witht the U.S.,wipe them out?.Well let me tell your wishes are being carried out as we speak. I wish i could drag you over to a country made desolate by the U.S. and show you some of the suffering first hand that your country has created, i wonder would you come out with the same nationalistic propaganda then. You make me sick. Side: A resounding YES!
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I'm beginning to think that all of your friends are doing something about it like blowing themselves up and you want to do something about it but you are too scared so you come to this site to complain so that you can tell yourself that you are doing something about it and make yourself feel better about being such a little chicken shit. ;) Side: A resounding YES!
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Ya, thats its you have me completely figured out. Fuckin hell man how do you do that, you should be a fortune teller or something, there's money to be made. Your right all my friends are out blowing themselves up, oh, i think i hear one go off there as im typing. Ah well he had a good run, so much for the trainstation.I'm such a little chicken shit, if only i had your big sweaty american balls then id have the confidence to anything hijack a plan with carton of butter and fly it right into the empire state building.Someday maybe, a man can dream. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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You sound really angry and once that happens, you lost. This is exactly what joe wanted and you fell into his trap. Take it from me, you can't change joe's mind because he doesn't care. You're just wasting your time. Ask anybody that has been on this site for a long time. The best thing to do is ignore him. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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The only way to beat a stick is with a bigger stick. We have the bigger stick, but for some reason we aren't using it. Let's show those terrorists the same thing we showed Germany when we ended WWII! All that patriotism and force that put America on top should not be going to waste now. We need to end the war on terror once and for all. The only thing stopping us from doing that are those damned liberals who think that non-violence is the answer. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
What do you mean "we aren't using it"? Ever heard of this little thing called the War in Afghanistan? There aren't many liberals who think that non-violence will work on terrorists. Obama represents the mainstream liberal view: Obama's Iraq Speech Side: smart vs dumb wars
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No, Joe, it's not that simple. Before engaging in any conflict we need to ask ourselves, is it worth the cost? Was the invasion of Iraq really worth $600 billion (and growing)? What else could we have done with that money? Was it worth the 4000 dead Americans? Was it worth the 1,000,000+ dead Iraqis? Side: smart vs dumb wars
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What, im serious, what? I wish you knew what it was like to be in war zone, to be in an insecure hostile place being bombed by a hostile foreign power. I bet all your joking and not giving a shit would stop quite fucking quickly.The fact that you dont emphatise or even sympathise with these people is one thing. That only shows you up to be completely self-interested but supporting what your government does in your name with full knowledge of it makes you a very evil man. Side: A resounding YES!
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Well....., what about those poor Americans that got killed by Somali Pirates? http://www.longwarjournal.org/ Side: What? Are you on drugs?
I absolutely agree. Of course we can and will destroy terrorism, but not with Non-Violence I can't believe those pansies want to do nothing to fight terrorism. And I really can't believe they think that would work. You are very brave to go after liberals like that, I do it all the time. We will get down voted and attacked for sure. Side: A resounding NO
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It's not brave to stand up to conservatives. They're war-mongers. That makes every bit of sense as your statement. None at all! I am considered a liberal on this site but I don't consider myself a pacifist. I believe we can settle many differences by diplomacy but not all. Those we can settle by using détente and diplomacy, we should. Those we can't, let us find a way to diffuse some of the hatred if we can and if no other option is left then war could be considered. I do not believe we can use non-violence to destroy terrorism but I do believe that for situations other than terrorism, we can and should. Side: No I do not believe we can
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I agree with everything except: "It's not brave to stand up to conservatives. They're war-mongers." If you don't stand up to a war-monger, it is because you are not brave. It is because you are a pansy ass. It is because you lack balls. BTW, when I use the word 'you,' I don't mean you so don't take it personal. English doesn't have a way to differentiate so I am making it explicit. I do not mean you explicitly. On the other hand, I'm not saying you have balls either. Not because you're a pansy ass but because you're a woman. It's just a figure of speech. And.... Oh, forget it. You either know what I mean or you'll choose to be offended. (; Side: A resounding YES!
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"It's not brave to stand up to liberals. They're pacifists" I was responding to what you wrote and clearly said that it was just as ridiculous. You can't make blanket statements like that and be serious and neither can I. Not every Liberal is a pacifist and not every Conservative is a war-monger. If you don't stand up to a pacifist it is because you are not brave. It is because you are a pansy ass. It is because you lack balls. BTW, when I use the word 'you' I don't mean you so don't take it personal...and blah, blah, blah. Side: I wish we could but it would not work
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Who are these "pansies" you're refering to Jake? Last time I checked going after Osama was unanimous across the whole country, And it was a Republican administration who decided it wasn't that important, and started another random war for no real reason somewhere else while Osama is still on the loose. Have you been taking your hate pills again? The Bush years are over, we can all get along now. Side: A resounding YES!
Names please, because you specifically imply in your rush style, completely non-factual fear and hate based innuendo that liberals are these people. when nothing could be further from the truth. in fact, liberals want to get out of Iraq sooner, so we can concentrate on the guy who actually planned 911. Meanwhile, that silly president I'm sure you voted for at least once said, "I'm not to worried about Osama Bin Laden." hm, maybe he's just scared of Osama. Maybe he's a pansy. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
"rush style", thanks I take that as a complement. (; It is not liberals who I am specifically talking about. What i meant was ANYONE who wants to take on Osama with non-violence is a pansie. "Meanwhile, that silly president I'm sure you voted for " I guess your talking about President Bush, no I wasn't old enough to vote for him at the time but I would have, Another complement. Thanks. " said, "I'm not to worried about Osama Bin Laden." " I don't remember him saying that. But I'm sure you have some kind of proof. And hope your not taking that out of context. Side: A resounding NO
Here is some kind of proof. Damn these facts and backed-up statements. Side: A resounding YES!
BUSH: Well, as I say, we haven't heard much from him. And I wouldn't necessarily say he's at the center of any command structure. And, again, I don't know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him. I know he is on the run. I was concerned about him, when he had taken over a country. I was concerned about the fact that he was basically running Afghanistan and calling the shots for the Taliban. Side: A resounding YES!
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Technically, we may be able to give Osama a stroke if we were successful at getting his top generals and the rest of his entourage to hold hands and sing, "I like to teach the world to sing..." in perfect harmony. But what are the chances of that (; Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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You were the one who made the debate about hate leading to more hate. Surely you must understand that the same is true with violence...why are we attacking terrorists? Because they attacked us. Why did they attack us? Because we did something to them. Why did we do something to them? ect... and all the while innocent civilians get killed in the crossfire. Should we go after terrorists and those who attack us? Yes. Should we show indifference toward human life (thus provoking more terrorism) in the process? Well that's what we've been doing, and hey it's been working well, right? Side: A resounding YES!
Surely you must understand that the same is true with violence...why are we attacking terrorists? Because they attacked us. Why did they attack us? Because we did something to them. Why did we do something to them? ect... So what did we do to them? Is it that we created a free market economy based on multi-national trade which let our country flourish while their land shut out the rest of the world and went into a spiral of poverty? Side: What? Are you on drugs?
It's called Neoliberalism. International exploitation and technical slavery. Unconditional support of Israel's land grab and subsequent genocide. Read: Hegemony or Survival: America's Quest for Global Dominance Confessions of an Economic Hitman Seriously. Even if you don't agree with the books. You will never learn anything new if you don't read anything you disagree with. Side: A resounding YES!
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How Naive! Ever since the fall of the Ottoman Empire at the end of the first world war (and probably before that) Europeans have been interfering with the middle east. Did you ever wonder why maps of the middle east look the way they do? Because the winners of WWI arbitrarily drew lines to divide up who would control what. That is why we have three groups in Iraq that hate each other. As for the U.S. specifically, pick a group and I'll tell you what we did to them. Iran? We helped the French replace a republic there with a puppet monarchy. The Iranians later staged a revolution and set up an anti-western government. That's why they hate us. How about Afghanistan? The whole reason Al Qaeda gained power is because the U.S. used them as a tool to fight the Soviets during the cold war. And trust me there are plenty more examples. So next time you think they hate us simply because we're rich, learn some history, then think again. Side: A resounding YES!
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Why can't we just become friends with them? Who says we have to kill them all? If you go looking for friends you'll find them, if you go looking for enemies you'll find them alot faster. Trust devlops over time, we've pretty much screwed them over so far. Why can't all hate be put aside, we live on the same planet and we will always. Side: Friends maybe
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Well, in this last "mini war" Israel lost 13 people and the Palestinians lost like 1,300. I would imagine that with those numbers they should be the ones to capitulate first or become extinct in the process. Seriously, terrorism does not work. They have been trying it for 40 years. Gorilla warfare is far more effective. They need to change their strategy. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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If you were really, really pissed off at your neighbor, would egg his house if you knew he would destroy your home in retaliation? In other words, the cost paid by the nation sponsoring terrorism is astronomical. Maybe it's just me but terrorism is irrational. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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You dont get shit and thats clear from what you say. If you were really, really pissed off at your neighbor, would egg his house if you knew he would destroy your home in retaliation? The piont your missing is Isreal is destroying their homes regardless, thats why their resisting. Theres no major conflict right now but palestianians are still being forced off land and kicked out of houses that are rightfully and legally theirs.Fucking idiot (as you can see thats replaced peace out, i think its alot more fitting, dont you?) Side: A resounding YES!
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Why do you call it a war. Nothing that happened there resembled a war. 4 of the IDF soldier killed were by friendly fire, so 8 vs. 1400 people (1200 proved to be civilians, 400 hundered children, what was their crime). IT WAS A FUCKIN MASSACRE. Bombs and white phosphurous were being dropped on civilians as they huddled in fear.There is no real fighting going on between Isreal and Palestine, what you have is an race of people being wiped off the face of the earth slowly but surely. Palestinian resistance is purely symbolic, they no they cant win but they continue anyway cause they dont want to go down on their knees, i happen to find that admirable.Call me what you want you biased american apologist. Side: A resounding YES!
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I was looking at it in the greater context of the Isreal Palestine conflict actyually (by the way a monkey would have been able to tell that) and yes i do find it admirable that they are willing to stand up to Isreal rather than be completley beatne down. If a young child stand up to large feared bully whos gona kick the crp out of him anyway, i find that admirable, this is exactly the same. Side: A resounding YES!
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I'm just afraid that the terrorists will hear you and continue what they are doing because it is so admirable and then they would win. The terrorists have been doing this for decades and they are winning. They are so close. Just a few more bombing runs and they'll win. Which is a good thing for them because they are starting to lose people to blow themselves up. I mean, you can't be killing 4 and losing 1400 forever! They are sooooo close ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Who are terrorists, the whole palestian population is it.I didnt kknow you were a filthy racist as well as being an idiot but you've just proved it. So, 1400 terrorists were killed in Gaza, not 200 Hamas officials and 1200 CIVILIANS. I dont consider teenagers whose families have been kicked off their land and treated like dogs solely because their the wrong ethnicity and religion, terrorists because they chose to throw stones at the people who did it. I admire them for them that. You dont even know what im trying to say, your incapable of it cause it just doesnt fit with your narrow view of the world. Your like a robot thats gotten the wrong instructions, does not compute, does not compute. People like are the reason these things are allowed to continue. Side: A resounding YES!
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I t must suck to be you. I mean, you're really serious about this crap and you want to change the world one person at a time by giving them links that talk about what is really happening in the world and the first person you try to convince (me;) doesn't give a rat's ass ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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I dont expect you to care like i do or even to give a fuck but the least you could do is acknowledge the truth of the situation. I mean if you see a child getting beaten and raped by two massive skin heads with knifes, i wouldnt expect you to jump right in and save the day, but i would expect you to textify to police that thats exactly what you saw, and not that the child was the one who provoked them and thus deserved everything he got. Don't take this anology too far, knowing your cartoonish style you'll probably try to use it against me . And believe me your very far from the first person ive tried to convince about anything.The fact is if i wasnt in college at the moment (and thus bogged down with course work and a thesis project with means im on computers 24/7) i wouldnt even be on this stupid site. Side: A resounding YES!
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More than you might think beleive me. Its a two way thing, most of the people that were willing to listen changed there opinions maybe not completely and maybe not straight away.Thats also not to say that they didnt have an effect on my own opinions, as i said its a two way thing. Side: A resounding YES!
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Terrorists, terrorists, terrorists you have terrorists on the fuckin brain cant you see that. Ya, were so lucky we have the good just american army protecting all the peoples of the world, looking out for the little guy protecting us all from the scurge that is the dreaded terrorists. What would we do without the U.S. Fucking idiot. Side: A resounding YES!
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You know, maybe if you had stayed on topic..... This debate is about terrorism. This debate is NOT about what gary77777 wants to talk about or what he thinks is important or what he's passionate about. I cannot help it if you get easily confused when people talk about terrorism in a debate about terrorism. ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Oh dont you throw that shit at me. Come on, we both know exactly what i meant. Need i refer you to my opening comment about the U.S. being far greater terrorists than any of those organizations you want to think are a danger. Let me let you in on a little secret your governemnt is hiding from you, America is the big fuckin danger. Anyone who doesnt play by your countiries rules are automaitcally terrorists, that gives you the moral justifcation to go and destroy them. Just like the communists were evil 2 feet tall monsters, not actual people like you or me. Now Iran are the big bad. I'm not tryin to stand up for Iran but beleive the truth of what goes on in that country is far from whats depicted in your media, but obviously you think Ahmadinejad is Hitler casue thats what you've been told to think. Ya, your on the good just side, your country cares about democracy, just keep tellin yourself that the next time your country blows the shit out a bunch of brown people you fuckin hipocrite. Side: A resounding YES!
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Please stop taking everything i say in the most literal sense. The only reason i said that is that so many of those who've suffered by your countries hand or its corporation have been from south america or the middle east.Both predominantly populated by brown skinned people. Side: A resounding YES!
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But the problem is NOT America. The problem is human nature. Name one country that is 100% nice to other countries and/or peoples. I wont even force you to pick from contemporary countries. I'll let you chose from countries from the way back in the past. All the way to the start of civilization ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
Israel won hands down in the battle itself. But look at the world's reaction to their choices. PR victory for Palestine. Here's an analogy. Terrorism is to guerilla warfare as guerilla warfare is to musket volley fire. Greater psychological and tactical effect in proportion to (smaller) resources. If a state decides to fund terrorist attacks against us, the state has a much greater chance of dealing us a big hit without being found accountable. Side: A resounding YES!
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Oh, right and when your country is responsible for the deaths of far more civilians than any terrorist organisation could ever achieve, thats just collateral damage. Ya, all those people really shoudn't have gotten in the way of the terrorists. Do you even no how fucked up you are. Do you seriously think in the grand scheme of things of that there is any real difference between the extremists in your country and the islamic extremists, or are you that blind, oh wait, you dont need to answer that. You keep enjoying your delusion, i hope you live long enough to see it come crashing down around you. Side: A resounding YES!
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How am i an instrument. I dont beleive any radical beleifs,i dont support any crimes any side. I'm not spreading hatred towards America. I mean how can you say that. Mind my is free my friend. I say what i say cause see enormous suffering, islamic terroism is just response to that suffering and mistreatment. I dont support any terrorist, beleive me i dont supprt any of thsoe organisations, but i look at whose doing the most damage and im sorry but there really is only one answer to that. Your problem is you value Western blood alot more than middle eastern. You think its a much bigger crime is a Western is killed than if a thousand Iraqis die in some air raid, thats just collateral damage to you. Well i look at and it makes me sick to my stomach. Why can you not acknowledge that your country has done more wrong than any terrorist organisation. Side: A resounding YES!
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you value Western blood alot more than middle eastern. It's not that I value one over the other. It's that I am extremely prejudiced against stupid people. Let me explain. For decades, the terrorists have tried to change the Palestinian situation through terrorism. And here we are. Decades later and still..... nothing has changed. Albert Einstein once said, "Insanity is doing the sane thing over and over again and expecting different results." I call it stupidity. Anyone that expects to change America's international policy by stating, to anyone who will listen, that America is the largest terrorist organization the world has ever known, is an idiot. That tactic has never worked. A better tactic would be to tell the people of any middle eastern country to overthrow their oppressive, tyrannical government and replace it with a democratic government that will use the money (obtained from selling oil to the U.S.) to improve the standard of living of the people and invest it in the country's infrastructure. The U.S. doesn't care what the country's ruler does with the money. The U.S. only cares that the are no threats to the flow of oil. What benefit is there to the U.S. for ANY collateral damage? Do you really believe that America loves to inflict collateral damage? Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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1. War will never end. I believe it was Plato who said "Only the dead have seen the end of war". 2. Terrorism is a form of war and violence. 3. The question reads whether non-violence can completely end terrorism. 4. Non-violence cannot destroy terrorism because the human condition does not allow for it. Side: A resounding NO
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Take a knife to a gunfight and stab them while they're laughing. Muslim terrorists hold the belief that if they die in a war for God they will go to paradise regardless of past actions. Convince them that Americans hold nothing against Islam and they will have a much harder time recruiting albeit it's a bit too late for that now that we've entered a full on war. Side: Friends maybe
I think we all like peace and want peace. I wish we could destroy terrorism with non violence I really do, but it can't happen that way. However anything we can do with non violence we should. Does anyone really think we can get Osama Bin Laden and or take down the tali-ban with non-violence? Side: Peace is good
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Yes. With an educated populace, the Taliban would have nowhere to recruit from. The current Taliban would either kill themselves in terrorist acts (or get caught beforehand), or just die of natural causes in a few decades. With no recruiting pool, they can't survive. Side: A resounding YES!
The reason we haven't had a major terroristic attack since 2001 is that the terrorists are trying to run from our military. If we suddenly try to make peace with them, they will go all out and attack attack attack. These radical Muslims do not care if we want to be friendly with them. They only want to kill the "infidels" and the "non-believers", regardless of friendship status! Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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You http://www.youtube.com/ go on watch it you know you want to, its calling your name Joe, Joeee, Joooeeee..... Side: A resounding YES!
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Ya im trying to brainwash you. My cult is low on members so this our new strategy, go onto social networking sites and rope people in with our crazy propaganda. Its the craziest method ever used, let me tell you what we do, we tell people the truth and hope that if they have a shred of compassions for their fellow man they'll listen and not dismiss it as propaganda cause it doesnt fit into their narrow view of the world. Side: A resounding YES!
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1. You dont care because you dont have to care. You incapable of putting yourself in the shoes of the peoples were discussing.Ok, fair enough you're not a empathic person, you're incapable feeling compassion for your fellow man, your happy doing what your doing cause your one of the lucky ones i.e. born in the West.Thats fair enough if i blame you for that ill have to blame the whole of Western society. 2. Ive already talked about this, i honestly beleive the truth doesnt lie in the middle, and i base that on the facts(not leftist propaganda like you want to beleive and begged you not to take my word for this but you seem so dedicated to living in bluissful ignorance that ill drop it after this) 3. Again, i direct you to Noam Chomsky. Your small minded opinion thatv this man has an agenda only shows how little you know of him (and theres a good reason you dont know who he is as well). Becoming the 2nd most quoted author in history means something you obviously cant comprehend. It means that the facts you present in your books (again hes written over one hundred) are so incontrovertible that every other respected author uses them. Again, i absolutely beg you not to take my word for it, look the man up, make up your own mind. Side: A resounding YES!
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What? I know this probably isnt meant to be a serious comment but really is that the only way you an justifly it to yourself.What does that even mean, do you even know. You say your truth is not my truth but there only one truth, you'd know that if you actually gave a fuck about the e truth Side: A resounding YES!
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OK, now the next step is to realize that being passionate about something you are powerless against is frustrating (for me). Therefore, I don't get passionate about things I am powerless against because I hate feeling frustrated. If you can handle being frustrated that's fine. Just don't try to drag me to your level. ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Ya, exactly me and those pescy liberals, as usual you got it in one Joe. Me and the liberals usual meet up at some ranchy bath house to discuss or evil plans, then we collect all our ball sweat in one big jug and we do like a little lottery.The person who wins gets fuckin drenched in the stuff while we all watch and wank furiously.Uhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!! Seriosuly man you dont know what your fuckin missin. Side: A resounding YES!
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You clearly can't see the difference so ill attemp to dscribe it to you. Those peopel you mentioned only support the interests of the giant corporations who own their souls even the most moderate people in your media can be tared with the same brush as your whole madia is corrupt. Noam Chomsky was voted the greatest intellectual alive. This man will go down in history, poeple will be studying him in philosophy, political science, sociology, etc., etc. courses long after both of us are dead. He is the second most quoted author in history, shakespeare is the 1st. This means the information he presents (leaving out the judgements he comes to based on it) is irreftutable, or as close to it as is humanly possible.Thats wht you dont seem to grasp, you think he has an agenda because he doesnt say what you agree with. What could his agenda possibly be, seriously i want to know. Why do think he holds the views he does. He disagrees with the entire politcal system in America, not liberals or conservative or otherwise. Anyway, you'll find if you want to.Again, though i think your happy living in ignorance Side: A resounding YES!
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I have a reputation to maintain. Most people stay on this site for about a year. I've been here for almost 3 years now? I guess you haven't learned that you shouldn't try to teach a pig to dance. Nor have you learned that you shouldn't wrestle with a pig. You can't win and the pig likes it ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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You clearly dont know me either, i grind people down over time. When i started college i did so with new friends i had made. They were from a much different background to myself. They were all reasonably posh, not very open minded kind of elitists but i worked on them. Over time they made an impression on me but i made a much beiiger impressoin onthem.Although if i knew you were nealry 50 i probably would nt have bothered, it does seem ive bitten off more than i can chew. Side: A resounding YES!
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No, im sorry if thats the impression i gave you. My opinions are shaped by the info. i receive. I question that info. more than most, beleive me. This has lead me to become more aware than others(i hope that doesnt sound to egotistical, inevitably when you talk about yourself personal bias is unaviodable). Then i share this info./opnion based knowledge with people who i think are somewhat receptive and open-minded. Sometimes they reject sometimes they questoin it. When it works it workd well though cause not only to i change their minds on many critical issues but my own views are refined based on being put under such scrutiny. I admit my views are still far from correct, nobodies are, personal bias, emotinal bias etc. etc always gets in the way, but when you can look at things cynically, prahmatically, realistically and above all objectively(although pure objectivity doesnt exist as close as you can manage) you begin to see things a lot clearer. Sometimes someone needs to piont out how your views are wrong (thats what i attempted with you) other time you can come to those concluions yourself. Side: A resounding YES!
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Your opinions are so warped against America that you can't see anything good that comes out of this country. I bet that as far as you're concerned Bill Gates is not a philanthropist. All the money he gives towards helping African nations nations get rid of disease is really a cover up so that he can take over, rape Africa and steal their natural resources. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Thats just not true. I have a deep respect and admiration for things your country has done, the movements produced within your own country etc etc. I have nothing against the American people, i beleive them to be badly brainwashed people who beleive in a lie. There news media is badly letting them down. The lie that America is a froce for good needs to be acknowledged as such. By the way there are exceptions to every rule, Bill Gates has done alot of good but that in no way negates any of the claim ive made about US corporatism. Side: A resounding YES!
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OK! Now we're getting somewhere. So when you rant and rave about America being an evil empire, you're talking about every American corporation....., because, I guess every Irish corporation is a force for good. Is that what you're saying? Or is it that every corporation on the planet is a blood sucking entity? Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Firstly, there are no International Irish corporation, Glanbia foods used to be until the co-operative broke off and formed there own irish organisation. Or is it that every corporation on the planet is a blood sucking entity? The answer (at what i beleive in my heart) to this question is yes, all corporation are prodiminantly evil entites, ok. They do not exist to serve the masses, they exist to serve a priveleged few at the expense of the masses. Now im am speaking relatively here. I think on the whole this statement is true Like if you've ever dabled in advanced statistics you may have heard of hypothesis tests, i think that in a hypothesis test where the null hypothesis is that the above statement is false, would have a p-value of below 0.05. Now the reason i single America out is becasue your American and you have disagreed with me about what i stated about your country from the very beginning, so really it wouldnt be much good talking about finlands crimes. Also, your country has done a lot more wrong than alot of others. When i say that what i mean is they have interferred wit other people from other countries, much more thn any other country. Also, capitiism, free market econimics, and the worlds dominant(most ruthless) corporations all emanate from the US. Also, these corporations control your geovernment, you have the illusion of a democracy, it not really what you think it to be. Admittedly its better than many other places but the corporations cant have the people realising how their being fucked in the ass everyday now can they. They thing is they dont care about anyone pver seas. Yes other corporations are just as bad, some based in Brazil are destrying the rainforest, the list is endless but the frustrations of someone like me will alweays predominantly be pionted at the US because they are the worst and that is where they were born. Side: A resounding YES!
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Listen camel boy (C.B.) Your mother looks like a camel. Which is good because it shows that she is not concerned about society's high expectations of what women should look like. You would rather screw a camel than drive a car that gets low gas mileage. Your being associated with camels shows your solidarity with terrorists. In short, CB is the perfect name for you ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Look, we've tried the whole 'peace' and 'non-violence' thingy time and time again. There's nothing that non-violence can do to stop the terrorism. They just want to fight, and they see non-violence as a weak and easily exploited trait. The only way we can stop the terrorism is with violence. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Dont forget to include state sponsored terrorism like that of the U.S. which is responsible for about the deaths of people on a gigantic scale. Ordinary run of the mill terrorism like alkida can never hope to compare to that. Think about over a million Iraqis have died since the invasion. Now they werent in a good position before that but still. 1/4 million died from the first gulf war and the sanctions imposed on Samdam (by the U.S.) as a result of it collectively punished the entire Iraqi people and caused the deaths of untold millions (look it up, its well documented, type killing the children of Iraq into youtube or else you have to trawl through amnesty international and WHO documents). I know ive only focued on Iraq but you could apply similar arguments to most countries outside the Western world and some inside.The amount of blodd on Americas hands no conventional terrorist can ever compare to and you'd be hipocrites to exclude it from your argument.Peace out. Side: I wish we could but it would not work
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Millions, huh? So American soldiers went into Iraq and killed over a million Iraqis? Are you sure you are not counting the Shiites killed by the Sunnies? Maybe you're also throwing in the Iraqis that got killed by Al Qaeda? And Iraqis that died of old age and natural causes? I'm just saying ;) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Maybe it is you who should look it up, it's well documented. Peace out ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Your just saying are you. Well at no point in my argument did i say anything about American soldiers going into Iraq and killing a million people. Maybe you should re-read it or you could try not being so ignorant in future(im just saying). I stand by everything i said. The best studies coming out of Iraq estimate that about a million people have died since the invasion. Now you'd have to be an idiot (and you may well be) to think that those deaths aren't a direct consequence of the invasion. Now i know that American soldiers are not responsible for every single death in Iraq thats ridiculous, the figure on that wikipedia page quoting the various sources shows that about 100,000 civilians died as result of direct combat and roughly a million have AS A RESULT OF THE CONFLICT.Again you'd have to be an idiot not to recognise that what America has done has created a lawless destabilised state lacking any of the basic necessities that we expect i.e. food,shelter,healthcare of any kind,education and the right not to be killed walking down the street. Now it is really that much of a leap in causation to acknowledge that this may have at least contributed to these deaths (i mean really) or are you so stupid that you think if America hadnt invaded a million people would still have died within a period of less than 10yrs. And whats all this for oil and more control over the bewildered people of the middle east, i really hope more countries follow Egypts example and shake off the puppet governemnts the U.S. has put in place to repress the people, its disgusting to even think about it.My original point had very little to do with Iraq and your attempt to discredit me is really quite pathetic the facts you presented are the ones i presented (i will admit i was little selective in my quoting). The point wasnt to get bogged down in the minuatiae of the Iraq war, Iraq was just the most convenient example to quote. There is a multitude of atrocities i could cite why dont you pick one it doesnt have be well known like Vietnam where America was responsible for the deaths of between 3-5 million Vietnamese (again a best estimate please dont post some wikipedia page quoting that actually the south vietnamese army was responsible this or that fraction of the dead or some other stupid ignorant reason that means America wasnt to completely responsible as they were and you know it, dont insult my intelligence for god's sake im a scientist its my job to get the facts right, i know the facts im quoting are correct i base them on the best sources of info. available). I really do hope you respond id like to continue this argument, actually one thing you never said was whether you disagree with the fundamental point of my argument which was that petty guerilla terrorism cannot compete with American state sponsored terrorism, why dont start by answering that im sure your answer will give me few laughs.Peace out. Side: A resounding YES!
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OK, so let me get this straight..... you think you're smarter than me ;) I'm sorry, but..., you're what? In high school ;) Do you even own a car ;) America has done has created a lawless destabilised state lacking any of the basic necessities that we expect i.e. food,shelter,healthcare of any kind,education and the right not to be killed walking down the street. Destabilized it to the point that they have free elections ;) I really do hope you respond id like to continue this argument Of course. You are one of the reasons I come to this site. You crack me up ;) Side: A resounding YES!
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People like you my friend are the reason i joined this site and its you who crack me up, so certain in your beliefs.I'm really glad you decided to respond im looking forward to you next correspondance. In answer to your questions; yes i do own a car (its all mine im a big boy now dont ja know),no im not in high school im in college at the moment studying for a masters degree in sustainable energy engineering, my undergrad. degree was in chemical and biopharmaceutical engineering and let me tell you its one of the hardest most work intensive engineering degrees available. I worked for a year before starting this masters but wanted to diversify my degree in order to find work more readily outside the pharmaceutical industry which ive grown to detest but thats besdide the point. Now ill respond to the only point you actually put across in your argument (even though calling it that is quite generous). Are you really so stupid as to think that any Iraqi person is happier now that they have free and fair elections, dont be ridiculous.Their country is so much worse off than it was before im not even going to go into the details your smart enough to find them yourself, hopefully, unless of course you get your info. from the American media which is basically like a massive propaganda network continually pulling the woll over the eyes of the American people. Again im not gona get into it if your interested read Noam Chomsky's manufacturing consent (or watch the documnetary movie made about it, its probably more suitable for your type anyway). Now free elections, what planet are you living on you imbecile. Do you honestly think the Iraqi people have democracy i mean come on.Look at the middle east its in complete upheavel and why, why do you think that is. Ill tell you why, because America has been propping up dictatorial regimes there for a long time (sometimes under the guise of democracy) and the people are fed up of being repressed.This is the csae all over the world particularly in South America but again im not gona get into it. Your an absolute idiot if you think the government in Iraq will serve the people and not their American masters.Look at Eygpt, Mubarak has been in power for over 30 years with American backing with torture and repression commonplace. I doubt if we will ever have a full knowledge of it. And then the people rebel, America gets worried,starts wavering, they didnt know what to do, continue to support there dictator or pull the plug on him.Look the their reaction in the first couple of days of the protests, first they said there should be an orderly transition then they said he should stay, then when they reaslied that wasnt gona happen they decided to jump on the band wagon of he protestors (so they could be seen to be supporting democracy). There plan now is to put in place pretty much the same regime with a dictator like Mubarak (sulliman (Mubaraks right hand man) is in control now and its well known he was torturer for the U.S.) My point is that America doesnt support democracy they support what favours their strategic interests (just lokk at the actually democaratically elected governemnt of Hamas, whatever you think about them they were elected by the people but America calls them terrorists and refuses to acknowledge their legitimacy as they dont play by American rules),Mubarak has been given over 70 billion over the last 30 years in order to control himto make sure he'll do what they want. I could continue with this line of reasoning but i think you get the idea. Im looking forward to your response, please dont just repeat highlighted sections of what i have written its quite rude and you should know ridicule is not an argument in itself.Why dont you try presenting some of your own counter arguments, you obviously think quite highly of yourself maybe you should try doing what this website was actually created for. Up until this point you've done very little debating you never responded to my previous argument. I have know doubt i can destroy any argument you have in relation to this because i sense that you absorbed a whole lot of bullshit propanganda which can easily by destroyed when you have the truth on your side.If i dont get at least one meaningful reponse from you this will be my last. Maybe your happy to acquies in your own ignorance, if thats true your quite a pathetic man. Peace out my blindsighted, small minded friend. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Oh your friends live there do they, thats makes me a idiot does it. The fact that you know people there is as far as im concerned irrelevant, ya i know palestian people but i dont hang my arguments on what they tell me, again you've demonstrated how foolish you are. Let me ask you a question; please indulge me, do these friends of yours live in subhuman conditions like the vast majority do in Iraq(i assume thats where your friends are from), are they deprieved of the most basic rights granted to us in the West (again like the vast majority in Iraq) or are they like that silent minority of Egptians (~1-2% of population) who loved Mubarak as he made sure they lived extremely comfortable lives while the majority suffered terribly. If you think you can win a debate with that shit you are sadly mistaken,you use quite a unique arguing stlye, first ridicule the other persons arguments and then claim to know more than them by using some tenous link to the topic,no seriously you should get that shit patented you'd make millions.It could revolutionise debating. You might think im an idiot and you perfectly entitled to but any one who takes the time to read this correspondance will know exactly who the idiot is. I wasnt even gona respond as i was hoping for an actual argument but you pissed me off with that arrogant shit. Why not trying responding to my arguments (seriously any of them you responded to none and stop focusing on the minuate of Iraq im critisesing U.S. policy, Iraq is a very very small part of their artrocities, what are you afraid to defend your country cause you know you'll lose). Peace out. Side: A resounding YES!
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My friends are Shiite. They are not rich. They say that America has made some mistakes on the past but they are glad with the outcome of getting rid of Saddam. America is also for the Egyptian revolution and against Mubarak. America is also against Iran obtaining nuclear weapons. I don't find anything wrong with these policies. BTW, I did not call you an idiot. As far as idiots go, I think you're one of the smarter ones. Peace out ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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I'm glad to see your responses have become more cordial.I admit some things ive sent in your direction have been pretty deplorable also but thats how i get when someone ridicules my arguments without any actual counter argument. Now im not trying to take anything away from your shiite friends and i am aware that they constitute the majority of the iraqi population, i also acknowledge that they have a unique perspective that you or i do not have and thus when the say something about their own country it carries alot more weight than when you or i say it. Now its fair enough if your friends are optimistic about the future (i suppose they kind of have to be given everything thats happened).I also think given that the shiite kurds suufered most under saddam that they would be more accepting of the occupation than alot of other Iraqies. Unfortunately i dont think this optimism is well founded, just look at U.S.'s track record in Iraq. First they support Saddam and they continue to support him for the majority of his tenure as dictator of Iraq.In fact America loved him i think i remember quote from Donald Rumsfeld saying somethin like "hes our man in the region." This is while Shiite were being massacred of course and they had full knowledge of it and dont try to tell me they didnt. They arm him to the teeth with some of the best weaponry available at the time so he sould win a war with Iran (a country they had a puppet government in until the people revolted).Again loads of lifes lost but as long as U.S. aims are being supported who cares right. Then he over staps the mark and gets a hard slap on the wrist (Gulf 1) but they liked how he ruled the Iraqi people with a iron fist so they leave him there to continue. When they find out hes not going to be completely subservient to them they invade in order to control it (the oil) for themselves directly (more or less) under the guise of corporations that serve American elite. So i happen to think their optimism isnt well founded believe me i nwish it was. Now America is pretending to be for the Egyptian revolution thats more or less what i stated previously, as i said watch Washingtons reaction in the wake of the upheavel. You can tell they dont know what to do their puppet dictator is being ousted before their very eyes.You can think whatever you want about this as well your entitled to but theres a very good reason why America never spoke out against Mubarak or any of the dictators in the middle east. Its because to a large extent they obey America. And why would America speak out when there getting their own way, i mean really just cause theres unbelievable inequallity (which exists in America too but thats a different argument), extreme repression, complete totalatarian control of the population, torture, death squads you name it why would America speak out about this when there getting their own way. Fucking hell man open your eyes, seek out the real news not he propaganda your fed on a daily basis. Now i happen to be against Iran obtaining nuclear weapons but the American agenda is a lot more complex than that. I dont want to go into it too much (ive already written alot) so ill just say this; they had control in Iran previously (the Sha another brutal dictator despised by the entire population) now they dont, and their worried iIran will grow too powerful (admittedly nuclear are part of that) and they'll lose their foothold in the region. Thats what motivates them nuclear weapons will just be the excuse they use if it does happen just like Iraqi WMD's. Now you clearly trust your governemnt, no offense but i consider that to be incredibly nieve. If you think any of these statements are false please feel free to challenge them. Its my belief that you fear they will use the nuclear weapons if they acquire them, i have two things to say about this 1. Isreal already possesses 300 nuclear war heads in my opinion they are just as likely to use them on an arab country than Iran is on Western country (but Western blood is more valuable then middle eastern blood, at least thats what the governments think but dont say) 2. the only country ever to use nuclear weapons on a civilian population, you guessed it America. Also you said your friends are not rich, dont know how you define rich but they obviously dont live in abject poverty otherwise you would have said so. Most Iraqis do live in poverty, its my contention that if these people were asked are they glad the U.S invaded i think their response would be a firm no (thats my opinion) and these people (the very poor not shiite or suni or any other race) are the majority in Iraq at trhe moment.Peace out. Side: A resounding YES!
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Israel has had nuclear weapons for a very long time and they haven't used them yet so I trust them with those weapons. My friends trust America more than they trust Iran. Maybe because of the war they had with Iran or maybe because they are more secular than Iran. I guess they think Iran is just a bunch of little Shiites wanting to take over Iraq. America did speak out against Mubarak, just like it speaks out against Chinese human right violations, but it's their country. It's up to those people to do something about it. The Iraqis needed help and now they are happy to be rid of Saddam. ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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I know Isreal has Nucs for long time and im sure if Iran procured them they have them for long time as well (what you think their gona make the bomb and use right away jesus you watch to much american scare mongering propaganda).I think the real reason you font fear Isreal with those weapons is cause you know (either consciously or subconsciously) they're not gona use them against you or any other Western nation but against poor war torn middle eastern people. I stand by what i said, Iran wants the bomb for the same reason Isreal has it, as a deterant. I happen to think if Isreal was provoked and the U.S. withdrew its backing (not that, that wopuld ever happen) i think they would be much more likely to use the bomb than Iran rather than give back the holy land (ha, fuckin extremists) they acquired illegal (under international law) in June 1967. No, offense but i dont think your friends speak for the majority, the facts just dont bear that out.I dont have links the exact polls and surveys but please take my word for it that educational institutions havev done studies that proves that the majority of people in the middle east fear US and isreal alot more than Iran. In refernece to China, yes of course they speak out against them, China are powerful, America cant control China in the same way as other smaller countries across the world so of course the US speaks out against it. Again im not trying to support China or anything but they arent the ones supporting dictators all over the world (i admit Tibet is pretty fucked up).Myy point is the US pretends to be on the good side when its convenient for them, this is well documented please try and open your mind. I thought like you once aas well, i accepted the propaganda thrown at from Western media, i understand living in America your subjected to alot more than this but please try to find things out for your self, dont just assume your correct, be humble and be willing to accept that you might be wrong, thats why i joined this site, i want to know if everthing i beleive is correct or are there persepctives and angles i havent taken into account.I not gona comment on Iraq again you clearly have your own steadfast opinion just know that i think it to be entirely false and i base that opinion on reliable facts with little or no personal bias. Now ive already written at length about the situation in Egypt, your clearly not willing to take my word for it.Thats understandable but you could at least look up some of the claims im making rather than returning with the usually propaganda spat out by washington on a daily basis.Heres an article that shows how the FBI are responsible for training Mubarak's thugs in the art of coercion of the enitre population (this wouldnt have been broadcast on CNN over the last 32yrs for obvious reasons) http://news.antiwar.com/2011/02/09/ Heres is a reuters article detailing how isreal were shocked at how America abandoned one of their closest allies in the region (for 32yrs they funded him and his repressive regime, they gave him over 70billion just to him, he has it now in Swiss bank accounts for the love of god look it up) when the trouble flared up in Egypt http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/01/ Heres a video from the higly reliable news station Russia Today (there a little bit biased when it comes to Russian matters but ive watched this station alot and i can tell you their on the ball when it comes to International matters) http://www.youtube.com/ And heres link a talk from the eminent linguist and political philosopher Noam Chomsky gave on the subject recently (if you havent heard of Noam Chomsky you need to right now seriously of all the links here this is the most important by far, he's American and if you havent heard of him theres a very good reason you havent(BECSUE HE SPEAKS THE FUCKIN TRUTH), many of my friends had views similar to your own before i introduced them to him but he is as close to an infalable human as there ever has been on this earth) http://www.youtube.com/ I really do hope you take some of these links seriously, i found them in a hurry (about 5mins) so i cant vouch entirely for their veracity but they seem to be reliable enuogh. Again if you look at any make sure to look at the Noam Chomsky one, i cannot over state this enough. Dont respond to me again unless you have reliable info. to counter what ive presented (e.g. articles that prove i was wrong on something not just your opinion or your friends opinion, thats not how debating works) or just to say i was right. Im sorry but theres only so much i can do to change your mind if you dont want to whole heartedly engage with this thats your prerogative, ive tried my best and i hope ive at least made you look at the info. you receive with keener eye than before.Peace out. Side: A resounding YES!
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Look im really tired tired of this and i was really hoping you'd actually respond with something meaningful that has a little bit if intellectual rigour about it. Im going to to do to you more or less what you did to me at the beginning of this argument. "I think Iran would turn the nukes over to terrorists as soon as possible. Now, I find it interesting that the stuff I believe is propaganda but the stuff you believe is not propaganda." ;) Firstly; what you've presented is opinion, this is clearly demonstrated by the beginning two words "I think."Now i can respond to this biased opinion in a multitude of ways all of which i will think are correct and you will obviously think are incorrect. Even though im tempted i wont respond with my opinion as it will do no good anyway. Now i dont know what exactly it is you beleive or what sources of information you think are reliable but if you would tell me id be happy to tell you what i think of them. Now ive asked to find out who Noam Chomsky is,hes head of philosophy and linguisticts at MIT, hes written over 100 books (many of them best sellers), hes the 2nd most quoted author in history, he more or less created the modern field of linguistics. Please do not refer to this as propaganda (if you only knew how wrong you are), i beg you, go onto youtube just watch a few of his videos(even the 10min ones), approach it with an open mind, this man is the most respected intellectual alive for reason. You clearly disregarded all of the sources of info. i sent you why not try examining them for their veracity before accusing me of believing in propaganda (or do you even kniow how to). Now im not saying i havent thrown a lot of my own personal opinion at you but ive backed alot of it up with credible sources of information which ive asked you to challenge for their veracity and you haven't which is what is supposed to happen in a proper intellecetual debate. Look id be just as happy being proven wrong as being proven right thats what your faling to grasp here. In fact id be even more happy to be proven wrong but i get the sense no matter what is thrown at you your just gona hold tough with the opinions you have which i find really really sad and small minded. Plus im starting to think you dont take this seriously at all(the whole site i mean). You just come on and throw out your opinion (to get some weird ego boost or kill some time or something) and think you can win a debate based solely on opinion. Well im sorry if you've ever engaged in debating at a college level you'd realise how ridiculous that is but you obviously havent. I begging you not to respond unless you have something worth mentioning ive said this before. I dont want to insult you but your starting to leave me with very little choice.Peace out. Side: A resounding YES!
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You are right. This is a waste of time because there is nothing I can say to change your mind and there is nothing you can say to change my mind. You were hoping that I actually respond with something meaningful that has a little bit if intellectual rigour about it. You say that my words are merely biased opinion. You say that I leave you no choice but to insult me. You want me to respond with what you consider worth mentioning. What makes you think that your words motivate me to do what YOU want? Yes, you are right, I don't take you or this site seriously. I throw out there alternative points of view that I find funny in order to kill some time. I don't care about winning debates because there are no winners. No one can ever win. This is not a college level debate site. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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I dont want to insult you but your starting to leave me with very little choice. Let me ask you a question. Are you one of those radical Muslims? Your comment sounds to me like something a radical Muslim would say to, for example, his wife. "My dear wife, I don't want to beat you but you leave me very little choice." This religion of peace is really very violent. "My dear daughter, I don't want to commit an honor killing but you leave me very little choice." And this doesn't end with just the family. "My dear neighbor I do not want to convert you to Islam by the sword but you leave me very little choice." And the examples go on and on. All you want is to win a debate and force people to agree to your point of view and if they don't agree to play YOUR game by YOUR rules then you feel forced and justified in calling them stupid idiots. I bet that if I were standing next to you, you would feel forced and justified in opening a can of whoop ass. And the ironic thing is the peace out crap ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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First of all you dont know me so dont please dont assume you know what im like, who i am, how react in certain situations or anything else of the sort.I believe myself to be a good honest person who cares about others even outside his family or circle of friends. I have only judge your opinions, i havent judged your character as a person so why dont you afford me the same courtesy.My reactions are to your ridicule and smugness or do you think you are not guilty of these. Now, i deeply resent the accusation that i would react violently to you or anyone else in a debate, i admit i am very argumentative, i care alot about what i perceive to be grave injustice being perpetrated in the world by governements on their own people and by governments on people in other countries. Now it just so happens that your country is by far in the lead when in comes to the latter but your so stubborn that you refuse to even try to verify or check if this is the case.Why dont you look into it are you afraid of what you may find out.Again i refer you to Noam Chomsky. In answer to your question no im not a radical muslim, im a steadfast athiest and fucking glad to be as well.I lost my religion when i was about 13 when my best friend hung himself, plus im a scientist which ive stated already. Now just because someone vehemently disagrees with American foreign policy (that has taken countless lives and caused untold suffering) that doesnt actually make them a terrorist or a radical as you have obviously been taught by your government and perpetuated by your culture. I find your anologies to be very disrespectful. The reason i said what i said is because you havent even tried to check the info. ive given you, you've simply dismissed it. you havent given me any sources of info. to check either you simply made grand claims about this or that and backed them up with nothing.How do you expect me to react, i mean really, do you know how frustrating that is. Now i dont just want to win a debate i want to try to let people know what i know, they can make of it what they will, people make up their own minds in the end whether or which.What is very important is that people make up their minds when they have all the info. and my friend im sorry to tell you, you dont.As i said i would love for someone to prove me wrong, im objective and i will listen to reason thats how i ended up believing what i believe but thats obviously not how you conduct your arguments. Also i say peace out because i consider myself a pacifist, in almost my life i never laid a hand on anyone that didnt lay a hand on me first.Believe what you want.Peace out. Side: A resounding YES!
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i care alot about what i perceive to be grave injustice being perpetrated in the world Yes, so do I. But here's the difference. The problem is not the governments. The problem is the people. The people of Egypt were not ready to have anyone else other than Mubarak. Now, today, they are ready. Mubarak was able to hold on to his power because the people did nothing. And there's more. If the people of Egypt do nothing to keep radical Muslims from controlling the government, they will end up in a situation similar to Mubarak. The majority of the people in the world are moderates. Yet it is the radicals that manage to come into power that screw things up for everyone. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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I like how you phrase this "Now, today, they are ready." The reason previously is becaue it takes a lot of courage, conviction and determination to stand up to a repressive regime e.g. look at the tiananmen square protests of 1989. People are reluctant to stand.The reason they did is because food prices shoot up and they had no choice. I agree with what your saying but in my opinion this country would have reached this satge alot earlier if the U.S. was not funding the regime with billions. Egpyt is the 2nd greatest receiver of aid from the U.S. isreal 1st. They wanted Mubarak in Power and thats why hes been in power for so long so you not hold America accountable for this or are you to scared about radical muslims, let me tell you something about radical muslims, they only exist because America has done sio many bad things to them, i dont even know where to begin. All you want is oil and power why dont you stay in your own country you dont own the world (even though you wouldnt realise that from there actions). Side: A resounding YES!
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Egypt would have reached this stage earlier if they have tried to sabotage their government. They wouldn't even have to blow themselves up. Just blow up government crap. Not even an all out revolution. Just harass the government enough to force them into giving in to certain concessions. I'm not afraid of terrorists or radical Muslims and I don't care who created them. I think we should use intelligence to keep them in check. I don't think we should wage war against them. That's a waste of money. All you want is oil and power why dont you stay in your own country you dont own the world You don't think radical Islamists want power? You don't think radical Islamists want a Caliphate? You don't think that Muslims living in France and England and who want Sharia law should go back to wherever the hell they came from? Come on! It takes 2 to Tango. If you want Americans to go home, then you should also want Muslims to go home and get the hell out of the lands of the infidels. Human nature is the same everywhere. Middle Eastern people are not more just and pious than western people. America would not have been able to put a dictator in power if they were not able to find corrupt Middle Eastern people willing to brutalize their own people. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Firstly id like to say i agree with a large portion of this argument i just think your coming to the wrong conclusions. Just look at what you've said, at no point have you acknowledged that your country is guilty of anything. Thats your tax dollars at work my friend. As i said the greatest propaganda and indoctrination system ever create and its in existence currently in operation in the U.S. The only reason we have left and right in govenement is so people think they have both ends of the politcal spectrum, nothing could be further from the truth they are both controlled by the same puppet masters(CALLED BIG BUSINESS,MULTINATIONAL CORPORATIONS AND CONGLOMERATES) Have you ever read the book "a brave new world" by Aldous Huxley. Its like Orwells 1984 (which you must have heard of)except he proposes that governments of the future arent going to control their populations through violent repression, thats proved to be ineffective in the long term, at some piont the people organise and rebel. He proposes that they will use much softer methods but no less coercive.They will keep their populations happy (and unfufilled) and docile all the time, there would be no reason to rebel people would just be completely ignorant and no one would ever question the power of the state as there is an ideological belief imbued into each citezen from birth(Americanism, freedom fries, patriotsm, have you ever thought about that shit). They will also be kept docile (from thinking) by supplementing their human experience with mind altering drugs that numb the mind and the senses (PROZAC,~40% of U.S. adults take it regularly). Now the reason i bring this up is because i believe the American model to be the first prototype of this kind of society.You can call me whatever you want if it makes you sleep better beleiving im a nut job, i sure you will as this should be very hard for you to digest and there no way i can begin to describe why i believe this via this ineffective medium of communication.Again if your interested look up the book, the author see what you think for your self, im not telling what to think im merely making suggestions which you most likely wont take up as you probably dont have a high opinion of me given that i dont share your views. Now onto your actual argument as is largely correct in content but fundamentally flawed and selectively excluded the U.S. from blame.Ill start with egypt, people are willing to tolerate a great deal before rebelling against their government, this well known by the U.S. government, they been seeing how far they can push poor depreived civilian populations for a long time (50-60yrs). This is the exactly what happened in egypt and tunisia. Food prices shot up, many peope could not even afford to feed their families and that was the straw that broke the camels back. Now you havent even entertained the possibility this regime survived as long as it did due to U.S. backing but this is the reality whether you want to beleive it or not, im not the only one saying this, the whole fucking world is open your eyes for fucks sake. I wonder why. You immediately blame the corrupt Egyptian people. I will openly admit that midlle eastern people are just as flawed as those in the U.S. (humans are humans no matter where you are) im not claiming anything else but your still failing to see my piont, no middle eastern country or peope has done the things you've done.Your country is to blame as without its backing (with disgusting amounts of blood money funneled into the army and corrupt egpytian hands) this governemnt (Mubaraks) would not have lasted long and probably woudnt even have gotten into power in the first place, sadat who would not have entertained the U.S. so its very likely he was assinated as the behest of the cia (you can label it a conspiracy theory and it may well be but sadat wasnt willing to tolerate what Isreal was doing and then hes conveniently assinated and Mubarak takes his place??hmmm?). When your empire finally does crumble and lets say China replaces it then it will most likely be the subject of my (or people like me) criticism as China will most likely exert themselves in other countries as well when their powerful enough to do so but that hasnt happened yet. So why do you not blame your governemt becasue you dont want to face the truth ive said this before. "I'm not afraid of terrorists or radical Muslims and I don't care who created them." of course you dont care who created them, cause it was your own fucking government. is it really that hard to accept, cant you just say it. Your government funded the mujahadine in afganihistan which metamorphosised into alkiada. Its a well known and widely acknowledged fact that U.S> foreign policay is responsible for fannjing the flames of hatred and breeding terrorism. Most people have acknowledged this (even in your ownj government) why cant you. If the U.S. kept its hands off what wasnt theirs radical islam would wither and die, can you not see that, come on. And there falgrant support for isreal who are currently commiting genocide against the palestian peolpe. You need to at least try and wake up, you have to want to to to be able to but i dont think you do. Side: A resounding YES!
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My reactions are to your ridicule and smugness If you had done your research you would have found out that I come to this site to have fun and make fun. I don't take anything serious. You perceive me to be ridiculing your opinion because my attitude is that no one on this site can ever say anything to change anyone else's mind on anything. Do you think that posting a few links on the internet is going to change anyone's mind? I don't post links with the expectation that it will change anyone's mind. I find that to be a waste of time. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Heres a way to fix the problem, people in american wake up from their deep slumber of ignorance and prevent there countrie from murdering other indiscriminantly overseas. Does that sound like a good solution cause honestly thats what ive hoped for, for a long time. Its the reason im conversing with you know. Side: A resounding YES!
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How would you know what a real man would do you over-zealous (probably fat and lazy) american.You think your a real man do you, thats fuckin hilarious. Im not complaining, maybe thats what it sounds i dunno, im trying to prove you wrong but since you've flatly refused to engage me in a proper debate thats impossible. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Debating with you is like debating with a small child that still believes in Santa Claus. It is impossible to prove me wrong because my argument is that the world has been this way since the beginning of time. This is the world humans have created. Idealists like you have never succeeded in changing the world. The history of the world is my proof. You want me to show you links that you can dispute. There isn't enough room. Study history. Any part of it. And then tell me that it didn't happen. Tell me that Nazis did not kill Jews. Tell me that Romans where good people. Every country, every society has committed atrocities. Some bigger than others. You want to prove me wrong? Change the world. Stop talking about it in a debate site and go out there and change it. At least give it a try. And then come back here and tell me how it went ;) Seriously, good luck with that. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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First of all i already stated that i am deeply involved in many ways. You can be sure of it and if isreal or america do invade Iran then me and all the peopel like me (and beleive me theres a lot) will be heard. Again,i fail to see how this argument can be used against me, i have studied history and yes there always is an oppressive power but america is unique in their hipocrasy.Other empires made no bones about what they were doning. They more or less stated we've got big guns and were goin in to kill rape and steal.If America came out and said that id have a lot more respect for them. The hipocrasy is unpalatable to me. Now i admit ill never change the world probably no matter what i do, but im still glad to be on this side. If i was on your side i wouldnt be able to live with myself, thats the difference between you and me. Side: A resounding YES!
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Noam Chomsky. The head of philosophy and linguisticts at MIT, hes written over 100 books (many of them best sellers), hes the 2nd most quoted author in history, he more or less created the modern field of linguistics. Where to begin? They gave Obama the Nobel peace prize before he did anything. They gave Yasir Arafat the Nobel peace prize. I'm not impressed. It's political. This guy is from MIT. So? He wrote lots of books (a lot of best sellers). So? He's quoted a lot by liberals. So? I'm not impressed. It's political. His views are slanted left. If his expertise is linguistics, then why does he talk about everything from Global Warming to conspiracy theories? He's a political activist and as such, he has an agenda. I don't believe everything political activists say (left or right, liberal or conservatives) especially if they have an agenda. You asking me to take Noam Chomsky seriously is like me asking you to take Ezra Levant seriously. Side: A resounding YES!
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First of all if you knew anything about the man you really wouildnt be saying these, i an assure. Please watch the movie Manufacturing consent, it condenses one of the most important books of this generation into 3hrs. Hes not political, hes not on the left (although some leftists do support his views or at least the ones they agree with). He is a linguist and POLITICAL PHILOSOPHER, thats why he talks on these issues. he doesnt talk about global warming hes not a scientist, i dont what gave you that idea. He doesn't beleive in consp[iracy theories either, in fact he thought the idea of te U.S. staging september 11th to be ridiculous. He is the one peson i think in the world without any clear agenda. He does what he does because of his morals and he applies the same standard across the board.He talks mainly about the U.S. because that where hes from and also becsue they happen to be the leading terrorist nation on earth for last 50-60yrs (relatively speaking). When your empire declines and falls theypages of history will reflect this fact whether you agree with it or not.You know all this if you actually looked the guy though but he i cant make you do anything. I dont know who Ezra Levant is and i dont plan on finding out gioven how little you engaged with the info ive presented. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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No maybe you should have actually read what it is i said. I said you didnt engage with the info. i presented, meaning you didnt reply to any of it in any way. I didnt expect you to reply with positive things to say and i would have been quite happy to review any sources provided to me by you i stated this. Can you not understand this, its called debating, here let me tell you how it works, one person presents a piece of info. supporting his views the other reviews it for bias flaws, lies, misrepresentation of the truth.Then the ohter person does the same. At the end of the debate the person with the most factually correct info. and the best arguments backing it up is declared the winner. Thats what i was trying to initiate but your dont seem capable of it. Your just taking what you want from my arguments, your like fox and cnn who selectively edit their news in order to distort the facts and support their own heavily biased (much more so than most beleive me) agenda. Side: A resounding YES!
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Eh, this is handy to kill time in between work (i do alot of work on computers). Plus i dont like giveng people tha last word even though it looks like ill have to with you, im not use to debate with people who aren't willing to look at the facts. Its one thing to disagree with my opinions and disregard my reasoning (since it not aligned with your own) but its a whole lot worse not to even entertain the other persons info. Why dont you provide me some id be happy to dissect it and tell you what i think of it. I can gaurantee that if there is nothing factually incorrect about thats the conclusion i will come to. Again, im a scientist and i wouldn't be a very good one if i let my opinions get in the way of the truth.
But i doubt you'll send anything, this isnt serious for you, you dont care that you may be wrong (i do) thats the difference between me and you. Your not looking for the truth cause you've already rationalised it to your self that what you beleive cannot be circumvented i.e. disproved. No amount of info. or argument is gona change that, as i said i find that very sad and quite small minded. People like you are what the dalia lama was refering to when he said "their minds are closed." The only way to change your mind would be to actually show you the suffering and death first hand that your country is responsible but heh if that could be done with every american who thinks like you we these problems wouldnt have been allowed to continue. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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I don't look at the facts because I don't care. I keep on telling you that you you just don't want to listen. I don't have to entertain your info. I know human nature. Israel and America commit atrocities. So what? Palestinians and the other side commit atrocities too. I don't care. They all commit atrocities. Big deal. If you had proof that one side committed an atrocity, it wouldn't matter. Nothing would change. Lots of people have pointed to the proof and nothing has changed. Things will only change when people take action against their government. People can only change their own government. They cannot change someone else's government. Only a country can change another country's government. But i doubt you'll send anything, this isnt serious for you, you dont care I've been telling you this from the beginning. you've already rationalised it to your self that what you beleive cannot be circumvented i.e. disproved. No amount of info. or argument is gona change that, I told you this too. There is nothing you can do or say to change my mind. You are wasting your time. What I believe is that the world has been in the mess that it is in since the beginning of time due to human nature and human nature is not going to change any time soon. There is nothing that can convince me otherwise. Even the Dali Lama cannot change human nature. You don't have to show death and destruction, I'm aware of it and it only reinforces what I believe. It's human nature. That's the way it is. That is life. It has been like that forever. It's not going to change any time soon. Grow up and stop believing in Santa Claus. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Firstly, people like you are the reason its never gona change can you not see that. Do you not realise that if every body wanted it to change it would change very quickly.Your like the person who sees starving childrebn in africa on t.v., feels bad for a second but then rationalises it to himself that he is powerless to do anything, then changes the channel watches some AMERICAN GALDIATORS. Seriously Bill Hicks you must have heard of him, best comdeian the U.S. has ever produced by a long way. Now i am scientist and ive dabled alot in philosophy and psychology also so please dont try to educate me on human nature. You call me a child but believe the arguments your presenting are child like in theit intellectual content. Your opinion perpetuate this suffering you imbecile.WAKE UP. Side: A resounding YES!
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OK, I'll let you in on a little secret we are not supposed to tell anyone. The way it works over here is that we have elections where we decide what group of people we like the least and should get blowed up. Then we send our military over there to blow them up. Then we watch it on TV and laugh our heads off(we are sick and tired of watching the same old movies and we like to see action). Then they put the commercials with the starving children and the one were the baby seals are getting their heads bashed in and we laugh some more. Seriously. That's how it works over here. We are a bunch of blood thirsty bastards. And we do this so that we can get cheap oil so that we can run down illegal aliens with our cars as they cross the border. That's why we love those big SUVs. You should come over for a visit ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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First of all your getting the same service, i could equally you that same argument against you, do you have any idea how many of your argument can be used against you, I mean i havent piont many out but there are a lot. And i think i do care about the truth, sorry thats just my opinion, but fucking hell i have to say that critism is fucking rich coming from you, you resist the truth with such force it would have to shoved up your rectum before you'd begin to digest it. If you can prove to me with a good argument and some irrefutable facts (just like i tried to do with you), id happily except that im just in for the mad rantings. I dont cling to small minded beliefs when the truth is right on front of my face. Read 1984 if you havent already its not in the top 10 of nearly every greatest books list since it was written for no reason. But your american and ignorant (and happy to be) so your not gona educate yourself on anything you'd much rather have your small minded opinions than know the truth. Side: A resounding YES!
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I know that the truth is not either one of the following: 1. It is ALL America's fault. 2. It is ALL everyone else's fault. The truth is somewhere in the middle. Some of the problem lies with American foreign policy and some of it lies with the rest of the world. You want me to believe that it is All America's fault. And then you call me an idiot if I don't agree. And I laugh at your logic. Especially since you're supposed to be a scientist ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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You know you should really think before you construct your arguments. I really shouldnt have to point this out to you but nowhere will you find me blaming America for all of the world problems.Again, thats a riculous proposition.You Americans always trying to simplify everything so you can fit it into your tiny little narrow minded view of how the world is and how it works. I disagree that its somewhere in the middle, in reality its alot more on americas side, thats what you need to accept. Now ive called you an idiot for the simple reason that you've avioded actually debating i.e. looking at info. on various wars and polices of your government. Now i wanted you to send me your version of events (which you will think is correct) then i would have tried to deconstruct it (i.e. show you how it is false).I also sent you info. regarding this but you just dismissed it as propaganda without even looking at it. WHY DONT YOU TELL ME WHATS NOT PROPAGANDA SO? I mean everythings a little bit biased in some direction (except wikileaks) but i have a sneaking suspicion that the news you recieve is so far from the truth you might aswell be reading a roll of toilet just after you wipe your ass with it (and you had a red hot indian the night before). THATS MY OPINION WHICH YOU'VE REFUSED TO CHALLENGE ME ON.Thats why i called you an idiot, for sticking to your small minded beliefs. Right, ill point out again, America is (RELATIVELY SPEAKING) directly or indirectly(this ones a lot more complex) responsible for the a much alrge proportion of death and destruction over the last 50-60yrs than most other countries, at least based on currnt info. Now, you might go, thats not true. And, im not saying your goverment is at fault for all of it, in most cases its the multi-national corporations and the IMF who are all basically american and own your government anyway. Now ive acknowledged before that America is far from the sole participant in all this death, destuction, carnage, injustice.... etc. FAR FROM IT. European powers have also been complicit in much of it but you have to realise your country leads the way.Its ruthless in its persuit of power and resources.What countries do to there own people is a different debate(i.e. China, Libya now). Why do you think you live such a comfortable life, why do think americans have the highest satndard of living in the world, why do think you are the highest emitter of GHGs (per capita) in the world with the next highest country bearly 1/3rd of your emssions, why do think your government has invaded so many countries put in power SOOOOOOOOO many dictators, funded porxy armies, raped resources the world over, destroyed entire countries with explosive (Vietnam, Afghanistan, and others), caused so much starvation and hardship to so many. Side: A resounding YES!
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OMG. Are you still on this tired, old topic? We have been debating this to death for days and not made any headway. Maybe we should move on to some other topics like abortion or time travel. For example, I am 100% for women to have a choice as to whether or not to abort. That way, hopefully, someday, in the future, I can go back in time and convince your mother to abort your ass ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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The grandfather paradox is a proposed paradox of time travel first described (in this exact form) by the science fiction writer René Barjavel in his 1943 book Le Voyageur Imprudent (The Imprudent Traveller).[1] The paradox is this: suppose a man traveled back in time and killed his biological grandfather before the latter met the traveler's grandmother. As a result, one of the traveler's parents (and by extension the traveler himself) would never have been conceived. This would imply that he could not have traveled back in time after all, which means the grandfather would still be alive, and the traveler would have been conceived allowing him to travel back in time and kill his grandfather. Thus each possibility seems to imply its own negation, a type of logical paradox. (Taken from Wikipedia) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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OK, so what you are saying is that I don't have to convince your mother to abort your ass, I can just shoot your father before he impregnates her with you ;) BTW, do you have any younger siblings or did your parents quickly realized they had screwed up ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Ya my parents had a couple more sprogs but they realised quite quickly based on the way i turned out that the best course of action was to club them to death as soon as they squirted their way out of my mothers vagina. One quick bash right on the noggin. Then we roasted them on a spit after sataying them in some ball sweat of course. Dam fine eaten. Side: A resounding YES!
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Dont you care that the opinion you hold so dear could be completely false. I mean really why woulkd be debating these issues if you didnt think that you were correct and if you think your correct then why are you so reluctant for someone to put it to the test. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Then i have to ask why do you bother debating on these issues that are serious by anyones standard if you dont care. I mean really it makes no sense. I can understand coming onto this site to get laugh kill somtime etc. but why debate these issues if you dont care. And i cant comprehend that you dont care that you maybe completely false, i dont get that, how can you not care even a lttle bit that everthing you may thing is one way os aactaully the other. Side: A resounding YES!
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These issues are only serious to young people who haven't lived long enough to realize that these problems have been going on since the beginning of time. If we haven't found a solution yet, then it is because these problems are inherent in human nature. Would you debate the nature of a lion? Would you argue that the zebras would have it easier if lions would just stop hunting them? Or would you consider that to be a waste of time since the problem has to do the nature of lions? You could kill all of the lions but then the hyenas would take their place. Maybe you would try to educate the lions by showing them youTube clips and articles you find on the internet. Maybe even quote authors who have written lots of books and are quoted by many. If only the lions would look at the truth ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Again, man the anology is very weak. Take my word for it i know quite a bit about human naute and futility of standing up for these.Its funny Noma Chomsky was asked more or less the same question. I remeber it well becasue i was just after reading excellent book by Joh Gray called 'Straw Dogs.' Its an excellent book and although it has some major philosphical flaws it but it makes an extremely convincing case for the fultility of humanist ideals.Seriously you'd love it, you've thrown that human nature jibe at me 3 times now and this book is in keeping with that whole philosophy. Anyway im not going to repeat Chomsky's answer here, if your interested in how your human nature rationalization can be proved wrong you find it for yourself.I strongly doubt you will though, i think it gives you great comfort to label it and then just take a side(whether it be the right or wrong one). Side: A resounding YES!
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Hmmmm, your argument reminds me of a little joke. A man asks a woman, would you sleep with me for one million dollars and she replies, "Of course!" He then asks her, "How about $20." and she says, "No, what kind of woman do you think I am?" and he says, "I thought we had already established that. We are now haggling over price." You see, you claim that many people die due to American policy and you are passionate about saving people. Except that if we were to dig deeper, we would find that you are probably OK with killing pedophiles or murderers or some other group you disagree with. Which means that you and I are just haggling over where to draw the line. ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Actually Joe thats not a joke, thats a famous quote by the playwright George Bernard Shaw. Now look you might think that we a haggling over price or the line but i dont. Murderers and pedophiles have commited serious offences against other people and many are repeat offenders and are a danger to society. Whether i'd condone killing them or not, honestly im not sure, im not completely against the death penalty.It really depends on the person and the individual set of circumstances vut i definitely dont take it lightly. Now i am talking about people who are guitly of nothing except being born in an undeveloped part of the world, which is being exploited. Theres a very clear distinction between the two, call it a line if you want, in my mind its a pretty be fuckin line. Side: A resounding YES!
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OK, so let's say that you want to save the human race from itself. One way would be to support space research (building a space station or a lunar station or a Mars station, etc.). That way if we ever blow ourselves up (or even if nature tries to kill us with Global Warming or a space meteor) the human race would still survive somewhere in space. But the problem is that I watch the news and from what I've seen, the human race is not worth saving ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Yes but your argument is hinged on the premise that another more benign higher power (be it alien , supernatual or otherwise) thats reached a much higher state of conciousness, awareness and civilisation exists somewhere else. I can't say with any degree of certainty whether this is the case or not. The equations for calculating the probability of alien life existing in the universe seem to indicate that somewhere there is other form of life, but what form this is in is unknown (may not be interesting i.e. complex). Again, these equations i went through(there easy if your any bit good at math at all), i cant remember what there called but its quite easy to use them to obtain a value for the probability of finding alien life. Its based on the size of the known universe and the what we know about it. The models use the info. to extrapolate outwards into the areas we have relatively little knowledge of. Anyway, thee still are no gaurantees, i trust in the maths but there are plenty of scientific argument that can refute the simple result i spoke about above.My piont is if we really are the only concious lifefroms in our known existen, in my opnion that makes us very valuable indeed. We can debate this from no. of angles be they scientific or otherwise i really dont think we'll nail anything donw though, the argument is just too vast and has too many sweeping implications for a variety of forms of human knowledge. Side: A resounding YES!
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.My piont is if we really are the only concious lifefroms in our known existen, in my opnion that makes us very valuable indeed. My dog is conscious.... when he's not sleeping. And he's a life form. If there were no humans, the animals wouldn't have to worry about becoming extinct due to human activity. If I was the last human on Earth and I had to pick between you and my dog for companionship, I'd pick my dog. He agrees with everything I say ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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I think we both know human conciousness is a little bit more unique. We've evolved the ability to question our own existnece and to manipulate the world around us to great advantage. Now id be the first to acknowledge how primitve we still are. Were just out of th efuckin jungle and many of our voluntary actions and responses are no more the results of free will than those of the animals from which we've ascended.Were still gripped wuite tightly by the forces of our own evolution but were more free than any other animal, thats what makes us very special. We are the only known lifeforms that possess the ability rise beyond our own evolution (at least in certain instances). Also, were animals we like to think were not but thats exactly what we are. All the other animals will still have to worry about going extinct if we go extinct the onyl difference is nature will decide (our influence will be gone with use). Actually since were derived from nature technically everything is working as it should anyway but thats a very cynical view. Id think you'd chose me, when it comes right down to it, an animal cannot compare to the companion ship of human.Humans like to challenged (some more than others (your in the other in casse you can't guess)). Side: A resounding YES!
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So do i but thats a very different kind of freedom, im takking about the ability to resist the temptations of a woman lets say if she was your best friends wife or girlfriend. You see a dog or any other animal doesnt have prescience to realise anything about previous mates, its completely constrained by its own biology, when it sees a potential mate, assuming they are both attracted to one antoher they fornicate and reproduce, theres nothing deeper involved. Side: A resounding YES!
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when it sees a potential mate, assuming they are both attracted to one antoher they fornicate and reproduce, theres nothing deeper involved. And you think there's something deeper where humans are concerned? Is that why people cheat on each other? Is that why the divorce rate is so high? ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Fucking hell man dont you get it, im drawing a clear distinction between aniamls and human, what i said was to clarify your statemejnt about your dog. We do have something quite unique. I already acknowledged that were anials but you seem intent on reduing us to the same level as dogs or whatever. There are big differences, we've evoloved the capacity (just the capacity) to rise above our own evolution. I'm not saying we have, im saying we are capable. Read some of Richard Dawkins Books (ive read most of his best) or Dan Dennett the famous American cognitive scientist and philosopher. You see again becasue it doesnt fit into your view of things i.e. people exploiting people is (and everything that flows from it) natural so theres no piont in trying to change anything or even beleiving change is possible. Fuckin hell man if everyone though like you i dont think there be Black or Gay rights movements would ever have happened . Also in repsonse to a previous comment about eth sixties, yes they did accomplish alot actually. Maybe not everything, the ideals and aspirations associated with that era were quite extreme but eth real thing you need to understand about the sixties is for the first time people were asking real questions of their governments actions and many great things flowed from that e.g. the above movements, green movements, the pull out of saigon etc, etc.. Do you know how many GI's rose up against their governemnt based on what they knew was happening in vietnam(many were imprisoned for life or worse), or how many just refused to engage in combat when they were in the country (e.g. move in on enemy territory). I bet you dont, you should look into it.Its quite unbeleivable what actually wnet on, seriuolsy if you havent heard of this i gaurantee you, you will be shocked. A massive proportion of the army just began to disobey orders and defect (many the grunts who are the cannon fodder) A large part of the reason they bombed the country so much was becasue they simply couldnt rely on the men to fight there dispicable war. Side: A resounding YES!
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Things change when a specific group is tired of the crap and decides to actively change it. Talking about it with people who do not share your world view solves nothing. You only like that "philosopher" guy because he supports your world view. You don't like my Iraqi friends because they don't support your view. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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What are talking about. Listen to yourself. I dont agree with "that philosopher guy" on everything, in fact i disagree with him on a great deal. But im not even gona get into it and the same goes for Richard Dawkins. I dont what view your Iraqis friends hold or whther i support it. I honestly think if i met them face to face although we may not agree on everything, i fairly confident we'd find plenty of common ground. My original piont about your Iraqis friends is they dont speak for all of Iraq. Look they obviuosly havent been hit as hard by the war as most people have in that country, ive read from very reliable sources that most Iraqis are extremely disatisfied with America as they know the US doesnt have their best interests in mind. They want them to pull out of THEIR country. Now just because a bunch of Iraqis that are obviusoly a lot more well off then most in the conutry disagree with that staement, it doesnt make it false. The fact that your friends dont live in abject poverty doesnt mean that most in that country dont. I'm sure if you asked some of the elites in Egpyt prior to the revolution what their opinion was of the whole situation they would have responded by saying, fine just fine. It doesnt make it true. Note: I'm not intentionally trying to compare your Iraqis friends to Egpytian elites Side: A resounding YES!
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I've read from a very reliable source that most Iraqis are extremely satisfied with America. America has freed them from an oppressive government and now they are free to rebuild their lives. The majority of Iraqis are Shiites. Saddam was a Sunni. Saddam oppressed the Shiite out the Shiites. Americans are not running around killing Shiites, Sunnis are. You don't speak for all Iraqis when you say that they prefer being ruled by Saddam over their current situation. Well, except maybe the Sunnis; they prefer the Saddam days ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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I know they probaly didnt like Saddam my piont is you view what your country has done as correct, morally right and justified. I dont know how you see that, they went in there for oil, heres hypothetical question, if Iraq biggest material export was rubber do you think your country would have invaded. Come one man. they dont give a fuck about Iraq, and thats why i beleive the country is no better off now than then. The reason i think things were mildly better is cause they had very good health, education and gernal infrostructure (you know before your country destroyed them, again this is a fact, to deny it is to deny reality, and yes theres only one realtiy im afraid) which would have sowed the seeds of revolution eventuall. It should have been left down to the Iraqis people to depose Saddam. Why dont do something about saudi arabia, thats at least as bad as Saddam regime was, maybe even worse. Why did they support all those brutal dictators in the middle east when they knew full well what they were doing to their own people. Side: A resounding YES!
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Where exactly did I say that it was correct, morally right and justified? Here's what I don't get. You claim to be an engineer and a scientist and yet you go around making all kinds of wild ASS accusations and ASSumptions and you some across as an ASS. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Firstly, i write these farly fast so im sorry if there not as air tight and coherent as you'd like.I throw down a few opinions and facts as quick as i can so i can get some real work done.Secondly, i know you didnt explicitly state that is was "correct, morally right and justified" but you dont need to when you make statements like: America has freed them from an oppressive government and now they are free to rebuild their lives That says it all.I mean seriously that right there if find baffling, as does anyone currently located outside America. Now i except that i may come accross as a bit if an ass, if i denied that id be deluding myself. But its really hard not to when your continuously faced with that bullshit (above) that you know to be completely false. if you would just look up some of the info. thats out there on this topic you'd know that statement to be false. Fucking hell man just look at you countries track record, what does tell you. Actually dont answer that, your answer will just frustrate me and ill look like alot more of an ass when i respond. Side: A resounding YES!
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OK, Saddam was an oppressive dictator. True or False? America helped get rid of Saddam. True or False? Iraqis can now vote. True or false? If you answer false to any of these, then yeah, you would look like an ass. Take them together and my statement stands ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Maybe you think it does Joe, but i dont think it does. Lets look at whats wrong with your statement shall we. "America has freed them from an oppressive government and now they are free to rebuild their lives" "America has freed them from an oppressive government", yes thats true. They were largely respobsible for the collapse of the regime, ill give you that. But what has it been replaced with, i admit you cant call it an oppressive government (yet) but you cant really call it anything the country is so fucked up at the moment but lets not get into that were focusing on your statement. "they are free" now this i profoundly disagree with. They're not free. Not even close, you might as well have called them "free" under Saddam. Look at the facts, a massive foreign military currently occupies their country, that military definitely doesnt have the best interests of the people at heart, its building strategic bases and your corporations are extracting its oil, that military has been proved to be very hostile (at best) to the indigenous population, again i refer you to the war crimes exposed by Wikileaks that show how mistreatment, brutality and sometime killings are being prepetrated by your army. Now again im not saying every soldier in the army is commiting these acts im just saying they've become very frequent. Go check it out the documents, why do think think they want Julian Assange so bad.The wikileaks documents prove that Iraqis are being treated quite badly and that this has become routine in many areas of the country. "to rebuild their lives" Ya rebuild their country after you completely destroyed it. Its infrostructure is completely and utterly fucked (causing INNUMERABLE deaths over the last 20yrs and suffering that hasnt even been documented).Remember prior to gulf 1 they had the most developed infrostructure in the middle east. So once America has extracted a large enouigh amount of oil to withdraw their ground troops (i already stated the bases will remain) and a puppet goervnment that wont rock the boat(like Mubarak, Ben Ali etc. etc.) and probably a corrupt police force (again, like Mubaraks etc. etc.) you may be brazen enough to get away with a blind ignorant statement like that, but until then "THEY ARE FREE" is complete and utter BULLSHIT. Also, the bombs you've dropped on that country has caused environmental damage that just isnt fixable. Cases of cancer are sky rocketing and deformed babies are being born in areas where you dropped your bombs that contain many heavy metals i.e. Uranium traces, Lead etc. etc. (This is true of Afghanistan also) Rich ancient forests that survived all the previous fighting (even the Russians) used by taliban fighters have been leveled and it seems unlikely they'll ever grow back.Again, i dont expect you to take my word for it look this stuff up on a reliable source (NOT AMERICAN). You might think i look like an ass cause im stating the kind of truth your not used to hearing but that statement of your definitely doesnt stand.Its horse shit, your just too blind to see that. Side: A resounding YES!
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Ya thats it Joe make a joke, you know im right, your statement that you tried to prove was correct was proved to be bulldhit, so just make a joke cause this isnt serious for you anyway. You say im a pussy, im not a man etc. etc. well at least i know how admit when ive been proved wrong. Side: A resounding YES!
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Did it ever occur to you that maybe you think that because you've been exposed to so much shit about your country never being in the wrong that when someone says otherwise there automatically a fanatic. Also, i take offense to the remark that i cant be proved wrong, how the fuck would you know. When i consider how many times i asked you to try to prove me wrong and you just sent back some stupid ignirant joke. Take my word for it my friend, i have been proved many times on serious issues and i accept it and learned from it.Im not some headstrong maniac who has to be right, if i think im right ill defen my position tooth and nail until someone proves me wrong but once they do i accept it. I actuall perceive myself to be a fairly humble person but i can only respond to what is thrown at me and im afraid to tell you that most of what you have thrown has been grade A shit mixed with insults and bad jokes. Your problem is you think when you throw out a statement with nothing to back it up i should automatically think ive been proved wrong. Why not try sending me some links that you beleive to be the truth, reliable links that you base your warped opinions on. I gaurantee you i i think they are correct i will say so and if i dont i will be able to tell you exactly why i dont and give you very credible reasons why i dont. Side: A resounding YES!
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I know theres no sinister plot, the things i describe, actually im not even bother. All your get from me from now on is the kind of shit you've been sending me from day one. Ok, here goes: I think that america is evil, i think Isreal is gona use nucs on turkey tommorow. I dont need to base it on factual evidence because your clearly just a propagandist i can dismiss. Anything you beleive is obviously wrong becuase i dont beleive what you beleive. What do think, i think its uncanny. Side: A resounding YES!
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No he'd say its a ountry founded on ideals which its never managed to live up to. He'd say its foreign policy is more hypoctrical tha n any other coutnry on earth, he say its comppletely self-interest in way that is extremely harmful to every other nation, but your right he wouldnt evil and neither would i, thats ridiculous. Side: A resounding YES!
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OK, so let me say back to you what I know believe to be your philosophical beliefs based on what you just said. America is not evil. All countries have good points and bad points. You just want to harp on America's bad points, not on any other country's bad points, and not give America any credit for the good it has done around the world. Is that pretty much it? ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Well can you name of another country that has been responsible for the deaths of 1 million people over the alst 10 years. I mean i know theres been conflicts and civil wars in Darfut and Sudan and other places but very few of those actually invoved a more powerful foreign country invaded a much weaker one, and none of these sectarian or civils wars have resulted in the deaths of 1 million. I mean think about it, can you name any other country responsible for such actions, and if not, do really need any further proof. Side: A resounding YES!
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Firstly that conflict didnt really involve a foriegn oppressive power implementing its military might, ok. Thas why in my previous statement i restricted is to non-civil wars/ sectarian conflicts. Thats exactly what the BAlkans was. Now i dont condone in any way what went on there and i actually agree that foreign intervention was necessary but in the way it was actually conducted. Again, i refer you to noam chomskys summary of that conflict, hes not overly anit-american he just explains the moitvation of Western power in that conlict AND you can be sure its very different to the way it was portrayed at the time. Also, i said the last 10 yrs, which is roughly the time the Iraq war has been going on. The Balkans has been a peaceful place for the last ten years Joe so maybe you should go back and actually read what i wrote the next time you try to discredit me, OK TAKEN FROM WIKIPEDIA: Recent history and current status (2000 to present)Since around 2000, all Balkan countries are friendly towards the EU and the United States. Greece has been a member of the European Union since 1981 and of NATO since 1952. Greece is also a member of the Eurozone and the Western European Union. Slovenia and Cyprus have been EU members since 2004, and Bulgaria and Romania joined the EU in 2007. Turkey initially applied in 1963 and as of late 2005 accession negotiations have begun, although analysts believe 2015 is the earliest date the country can join the Union due to the plethora of economic and social reforms it has to complete. Croatia and Macedonia also received candidate status in 2005, while the other Balkan countries have expressed a desire to join the EU but at some date in the future. On October 17, 2007 Croatia became a non-permanent member of the United Nations Security Council for the 2008-2009 term. Croatia has since joined NATO, along with Albania, on April 1, 2009, and both countries also seek admission in the EU in 2009. In 2004 Bulgaria, Romania and Slovenia also became members of NATO. In 2006, Montenegro separated from the state of Serbia and Montenegro, also making Serbia a separate state. There were fears that this separation would lead to regional instability, but so far this has not been the case. Kosovo declared its independence from Serbia on February 17, 2008. Side: A resounding YES!
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i dont condone in any way what went on there and i actually agree that foreign intervention was necessary but in the way it was actually conducted. So greater minds than yours determined how to conduct the intervention but your way would have been way superior. You're a pretty arrogant ass hole. Oh wait, it was N.C.'s idea. Maybe we can elect him as World President. He's so fucking smart, writing books, getting interviews and yet no Government has asked for his opinion on how to do things and no news organization has said, "Wait...., what would N.C. do?" until after the fact. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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I meant to write "but not in the way it was actually conducted." You think im an arogant asshole, look at what your acusing me of, firstly i never claimed i had a better idea of how to conduct such an intervention, OK. So dotn try and fuckin insinuate that i did just to make my piont look worthless. If i had said i would be more than deserving of your "arrogant ass hole" comment. Now i dont claim to have known how to conduct that war just in the same way that i dont claim to know what is best for Libya or what the Nato forces should be doing in there. WHAT I CLAIM TO KNOW IS THE FOLLOWING (BTW i dont think it makes me an arrogant person to say this, if anything it makes me perceptive); Nato forces are not in Libya to help the Libyan people achieve democracy, if that was the case they would have done the sme when the Yemeny peopel were being slaughtered by their US backed leader last Friday, Oh what did you not hear about that, oh. So FOX and CNN let you down on that one did they, what about when the Saudi army (armed by the US) was called into Bahrain to quell an actual revolution (not a civil war like Libya) and slaughtered the protestors, wait did you not hear about that either Joe, Jesus looks like my anti-american leftist propaganda is telling me things your news isnt telling you. Actually its funny many people have suggested the idea of making Noam Chomsky president, so that idea isn't as far fetched as you make out. He's been asked by countless people and his response is always the same "my first act as president would be to resign." You see he doesnt beleive in the defunct system you have operating currently. Therefore, theres no piont in someone like him trying to make a system that has a inherent malfunction in it, work. "yet no Government has asked for his opinion on how to do things and no news organization" Actually your completely wrong his opinion is widely sought after by many governments accross the world, just not your government (as he is considered a paria shunned by your intellectual community for not agreeing with your capitalist imperialist model).But if you knew anything about him you'd know what your typing is complete shit. Get a clue, investigate the man before you make outlandish claims likfe that, dont you realise you have no idea what your talking about. Side: A resounding YES!
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Your an fuckin idiot you know that, Chomsky isnt a socislist and to label him as such is highly insluting to him and even to me. Your an ignorant idiot who doesnt have clue what hes tlaking about. The system of government chomsky thinks is best is democractic govenment, but he states that it is a idela system that can never work in practice, he proposes a system that strivese towards democracy, its called AnarchoSyndicalsim. Look it up before shoot your mouth off you ignorant fuck. Side: A resounding YES!
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he just explains the moitvation of Western power in that conlict AND you can be sure its very different to the way it was portrayed at the time. So when you finally find a girl friend who's willing to pet your dick, you'll be like, "Oh, I'm in love. This is love!" And someone else can explain, "He just want his dick stroked." There are many ways to spin anything and N.C. is good at spinning and you're too stupid to realize it. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Thats a pretty grim assessment of any relationship, why do you have a wife or girlfriend, and if so, are you only with them to get your dick stroked as you so eloquently put it. Yes there are many ways to spin the truth, everyone uses the truth to their own advantage and any opinion is acceptable in a certain context, im not saying you should look at his opinion and bow down before your new God, im saying he present facts that are intentionally omitted from the information you receive. Are you trying tell me the aim of the international force currently in Libya is to help the Libyan people. Ok, you think hes spinning the truth, give me one good reason he would spin the truth. Do you not realise what the man has sacrificed in order to tell the truth, he could have been one of the most famous intellectuals in your country has he not opposed the amerrican agenda, most the support he gets in your country is underground and independent support. Side: A resounding YES!
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im saying he present facts that are intentionally omitted from the information you receive. He presents HIS interpretation of the so called FACTS. Are you trying tell me the aim of the international force currently in Libya is to help the Libyan people. Yes. But mainly because it'll piss you off ;) give me one good reason he would spin the truth. In order to sell more books, make more money and get quoted more ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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He presents the facts, then he makes his conclusions based on them, if you ever studied him you know why he has soo much respect, but agin i dont expect you to. "In order to sell more books, make more money and get quoted more ;)" Why do think the man would give a fuck about this, if you knew anything about him you'd know his moral philosophy determines his actions, your claim would only be valid if he had accepted his place in the hieracrhy of the american intellectual elite, can you not see that. Side: A resounding YES!
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Can you not keep up with the argument, i cited Iraq as the only conflict in the last ten yrs where a foreign oppressive power came into a country and caused trhe deaths of 1 million people, i used that to justify my claim that America is more guilty of war crime that any other country. I said to show me one other example in the last ten years and you brough up the Balkans (which occured in the 90s) i gave youn the wiki cut out to prove nothing has been going on there for the last ten yrs, thus defeating your original claim. BTW its not Americas fault Iraq is, that the piont, there are no other countries (except maybe the UK for tagging along) as guilty as yours. Side: A resounding YES!
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Really Joe, i dont kow how you can care so little about the death of 1 million people. I'm not speculating about anything, these atre the facts, this is the best estimate of the amount of people who have perished. Seriously how can you act as if this isnt a big deal, id love if you could just see some the death and destruction your country has casued, your life is too sheltered, you dont get to see what really goes on so its safe for you to hold your bigoted opinions cause they'll nerve be brought into question where you are and if they ever are you can always plead ignorance, i find that sad, i deicated my life to pursuit of truth and beauty, this doesnt always imply happiness but i beleive it will provide me with the richest life availble to me. Side: A resounding YES!
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Truth is over rated. Mainly because truth is subjective. As far as the people who have died (for whatever reason) they would have died regardless. Maybe later, maybe not. But in the grand scheme of things, does it really matter? Especially when you consider what may have been if they had lived. Maybe it's better they died. Besides, a lot of these people want to meet Allah. If that wasn't the case, why would they blow themselves up? So who is to say that it is wrong for a U.S. Marine to arrange such a meeting ;) Look, when a lion kills a cheetah cub, you don't go on a rant about it because that is just the way it is. Same with humans. There's nothing special about our species ;) Let me put it another way, if I were to die tomorrow, would you be as devastated? Or do you only care about poor people ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Real truth is not subjective i compleltly disagree, we've discudssed this before. I base my opinons on facts, you dont, so please dont come back with that truth is subjective crap, ok, truth is subjective cause you want it to be subjective, if it wasnt you might have tp acknowledge that the deaths of 1 million people in Iraq wasnt such a good thing and that maybe your partially responsible for it goven that you supported the war. Thats the fuckin truth and theres nothin subjective about it. Side: A resounding YES!
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the deaths of 1 million people in Iraq wasnt such a good thing Says you. There are lots of people that beg to differ. Look, your statement is clear indication that YOU ARE NOT A SCIENTIST. Any scientist worth his salt knows that categorization such as "good" and "bad" are based on criteria. If your criteria is different than mine then the categorization is subjective. Is that a hard concept to grasp for a simple mind as yours? A mind that sees things as black or white and NOT as shades of gray? Are you still in High School? Have you not matured past your adolescent view of the world? ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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You keep saying im not a scientist, i have to ask, how the fuck do you what way a scientists response would be. Your attempt to discredit and annoy me is quite pathetic my weak minded friend. I'm sorry yuo dont have the heart in you to realise that 1 millioni dead Iraqis is a bad thing, maybe if they American or you knew one of them, huh Joe, i bet then you'd take notice then, fuckin hypocrite.i bet you'd shed a few tears then, wouldnt you. As for your scientist jibe, look i analyse things objectively, i have arrived at my categorisation based on quite good criteria actually, the kind formulted in the international court of human justice and international law itself. Any scientist would agree with me on this, when you break international law and it leads to the deaths of 1 million people, that can normally be classed as a BAD THING. Is that a hard concept to grasp for a simple mind as yours? A mind that sees things as black or white and NOT as shades of gray? Are you still in High School? Have you not matured past your adolescent view of the world? ;) I fully acknowledge that the world is gray, but that conflict isnt half as gray as you want tomake out my friend. You went in there against the wishes of th eineternational community, thats a breach of international law, IS THAT A GOOD ENOUGH CRITERIA???????????????? Or how about the fact that you continually defy international law in allowing Isreal to kill palestians and evict them from their land. How would like it if someone called to your door and told you becasue so tribe had live on the land 4000yrs ago you need to leave your home. I dont think you'd like atr all. You talk about criteria but you dontn have a clue, you think you were fighting terrorism, you were creating terrorism by commiting terrorist acts against a people that had never provoked you in nay way. You my friend have a seriously fucked up view of the world, the fact that you can excuse the deaths of i million i cannot understand, you are clwearly a fucked up human being. I think you need to educate yourself on international law my friend: http://oneutah.org/2010/01/12/ Side: A resounding YES!
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As for your scientist jibe, look i analyse things objectively, i have arrived at my categorisation based on quite good criteria actually, the kind formulted in the international court of human justice and international law itself. What a bunch of shit! You have arrived at your categorization based on emotion. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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I find your rationalisation that they would have died regardless to be quite hilarious. I mean not the argument just tha fact that you can beleive that shit, it really shows just how ignorant you are. In the grand scheme of things o dont it matters at all Joe, in the grand scheme of things it doesnt matter if Iran get the bomb and lauch it on every American city, I mean in the grand scheme of things, right. What is this racist shit your spewing, they went to see allah, so you think of the 1 million peopel who died they were all redical islamists, how does that not sound completely wrong to you. 100,000 died in fighting at a push you can say that those people were probabkly radicals, even though from their perspective they were just fighting a foriegn power that had invaded theit country but to say that the 1 million that died in all the bombing and raids and accidents and bad healthcare due to depleted infrostructe etc. etc., to sayv that they were all suicide bomber demonstyrates how how fucked up you are. Again, i have to re-iterate, whos the real extremist here, i not the one trying to rationalis the needless deaths of over a million Iraqis just casue it was my country that was respobsible. You know it takes a big man to admit when your wrong, your clearly not big enough. Again, with the humjan nature shit, fuckin hell man. I'm gettuin tired of this. What would you rather live in the jungle with jungle rules is it, a completely lawless society based whoever is the biggest wins. Is that what you support, cause if so fair enough but i dont think you have any idda what that means to be quite honest. Now society isnt suppose to functino thast way so when it does you have to acknowledge that what went on was wrong, morally, ethically, legally etc etc. WHY CAN YOU NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THIS. Oh wait i know cause you dont want to beleive your great country can ever be in the wrong, oh ya i forgot your completely indoctrinated, it ok you dont need to answer. It depends, if you died becasue you were denied your basic human rights, than yes i would be devastated, i base my moral code on how i would like to be treated if i see another human being trated in a way that i cannot agree with e.g. palesetians then i get upset and i want to do all that in my power to stop wehat i beleive to be wrong. Now what you need to realise is that rich peopel are very rerely the ones being mistreated becasue money and power go hand in hand, but you know this so please stop patronising me. Side: A resounding YES!
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Look, you just have this insatiable need to feel outraged and so you side with the underdog. That way, when they can't win, like in the movies, you can rant your little heart out. Besides, i think you are the one being racist for claiming that their religion is a bunch of shit and that they are NOT with 72 virgins. At least I acknowledge their religion and state that they probably are with 72 virigns ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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WTF i never claimed there religion was a bunch of shit i actually beleive in what it teches i just think the extreme elements of it have been twisted to suit the terrorist agenda. Now i do go for the underdog cause when i see peoepl being killed and subjected to the kind of treatment i wouldnt wish on my worst enemy i empathise with them, imn sorry your incapable of this. Side: A resounding YES!
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Well...., if you believe in God then you would know that if He can part the Red Sea then He can keep shrapnel from hitting you. It is not up to us to determine who's evil and who's nice. It's up to God. That's His job; to sort them out. He separates the good from the bad. All we do is send Him some a little early. No big deal ;) If death was a bad thing, God would not have created it ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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I can prove that that in one sentence Joe, your country claimed the Vietnam war was for the benefit of the Vietnamese people, you claimed you were there TO HELP THEM. This is what the soldiers believed, as im sure they do now in Iraq. You killed 3 million of them and lierally flattened their country, you destroyed the fillings in their fuckin teeth (not that they could afford them or eve had dentists). You dropped napalm that literally vaporised entire villages buring men women and childen, cats dogs, frogs, ants alive. You dropped Chemical weapons "Agent Orange" (look it up) that killed thousands and thousands of people, just killed all life around the area it was dropped (you know like Saddam gased the Kurds, sorry but you did first in vietnam). I was there during the summer, the effects are still very much being felt but they proud that they forced you from THEIR COUNTRY. Your troops were using the natives for target practice, from choppers above the list of atricites associated with that war are endless, you behaved like midevil savages equipped with sophisticated weaponry. You killed another 2 million in neighbouringAnd you did all this under the pretence that you were there to help them. Now if that isnt hypocracy on a massive scale i dont know what it my friend. Side: A resounding YES!
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We were there to help the non communist Vietnamese. We were there to kill communist Vietnamese. We killed communist Vietnamese in order to help out the non communist Vietnamese. That's how you help people during a war. You pick a side and you help them by killing the people on the other side. What planet are you from? ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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OMG, OM fuckin G you did not just try to justify what your country did in Vietnam did you. I cant beleive what im reading, seriously is this honeestly what you think or are you joking. If your serious your ignorance knows no bounds my friend. YOU killed 3million vietnamese, yes at the start of the war you had the support of the puppet south vietnamese government but once you started killing and raping everything that had cross eyes you kind of lost the support of the indegenous population, once you started buring entire villages in one go and kiiliing at random etc. etc. the vietnamese realised quite fuckin quickly . Dop you know how many US senators are guilty of participating in horrible war crimes in that country, look it up seriously, it makes for some interesting reading, maybe the next time you go to vote you might not want to vote for a man who in his lifetime was guilty of picking children up taking his knife out and disembowling them (you probably think im exaggerating but im not even scrathing the surface). Vietnam is probably the single worst crime your government and army is guitly of, you had no side. You are unbleievable, seriously if thats what you beleive i strongly urge you to go to vietnam and look into what you are talking about. Side: A resounding YES!
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Oh, here we go again. Again with a million. You really like that number. So much so that this time you multiplied it by 3. Apparently America doesn't do anything in small quantities. Everything America does is in the millions. Hell, even McDonalds does things in the millions (over 6 million sold). Maybe we should change the name to The Land of the Millions ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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How ignorant and stupid can one man be, fuckin hell. IF YOU DO NOT BELEIVE ME CHECK THE FUCKIN FACTS FOR YOURSELF YOU FUCKIN IDIOT. Ok. 3 million vietnamese lost there lives over the course of the 10 yr war, the overwhelming majority of these were civilians, approximately 50,000 American soldiers were killed. Now why not instead of disagreeing with me you go and look the fucking facts up. Ok. In Cambodia and Loas approximately 2 miilion died due to aAmerican bombing of those countries, basically the vietcong were using those countries as bases so you bombed them back to the stone age as well. Best estimates put the numbers killed in the Indochinese wars your country waged against the helpless people there at between 4-5 million, go check it out, check it out on a fuckin ameriacn source, you dont have to look up my anit american propaganda as you call it. These are facts, well known facts to deny them is to deny reality but we both know how good you are at doin that, dont we Joe. Also, please dont patronise me, ive been to Vietnam twice in my lifetime, once when i was just 10 yrs old and i returned for 3 months in the summer just gone. I absolutely love the country, i i adore its people, there the friendliest on the face of the planet. I also have deep interest in the vietnam war so dont try and tell me what i know is wrong when your so fuckin ignorant that you obviously have no idea what your "brave" "good" country did to that place.The fact you even have the guile to disagree given that you clearly havent a clue sickens me. Side: A resounding YES!
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Hey, what does dog taste like? Hopefully not chicken. I heard they eat dog over there. I was wondering if you tried some dog while you were over there. Those people probably died from eating bad dog meat. Even if they didn't, think of it as punishment for eating some poor pup. ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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I still cant beleive you were brazen enough to repeat that drivvle, ive a great a deal about the conflict so i cannot beleive you would come out with such a statement. Ill tell you what, go to south vietnam meet a random vietnamese man walking down the street and try to convince him that what you were doing during the war was to help the non-communist vietnamese, just try it, see what happens. Your fuckin unbeleivable, go educate your self on the war then come back and look at that statement again. Fuck me your unbeleivable, honestly i knew you were bad but seriously the most extreme neo-cons in your country would barely try to stand up for what was done to the people in vietnam, its one the blackest periods of your history when millions in your country (the ones with strong morals, awareness and a conscience) were so digusted by what was going on that they took to the streets, when even large portions of the army began to defect. You politicians dont like to talk of that conflict they sweeep it under the rug just like the massacre and genocide of native American Indian that marked the founding of your great nation. Side: A resounding YES!
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yes the remnants of their lost civilisation remains, look im tired of trying to explain any of these things to you, if your really interested in any of the thing ive been saying you'll look it up for yourslef. If you want to know about the massacre of the entire Indian people read "I buried my heart at wounded knee" very depressing book but also eye opening, you i still think your country hasnt come to terms with what went on then. Side: A resounding YES!
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What are you talking about the remnants of their lost civilisation do you want them to still be around with their little bows and arrows hunting buffalo? They have evolved! Just as we have evolved. You don't see us driving in a horse and carriage, do you? Why aren't you lamenting the "remnants" of our lost civilization? Man! You are so stupid I find it hard to believe you are a scientist... but then again, maybe you are what passes as a scientist in Europe. I'm not at all surprised ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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its comppletely self-interest in way that is extremely harmful to every other nation If America is extremely harmful to every other nation on the planet.... ok, now see if you can follow this simple train of thought. I know that it will be a difficult concept for you to grasp, but amuse me and try...., WHY THE HELL DON"T EVERY OTHER NATION ON THE PLANET ATTACK THE U.S. of fucking A? Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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That was a gross generalisation Joe, you caught me, ok. Obviously Americas actions arent harmful to every country all the time and when they are harmful they not harmful to the people on top in those countries, like the economic warfare your country has been responsible for across the world has affected only the poorest in socitey, did you hear about how many people died in India (people on the poverty line of course) when the quantitve easing you economic princes on Wall Street iniated drove food prices up. what i saying this for, of course you didnt. Side: A resounding YES!
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did you hear about how many people died in India (people on the poverty line of course) when the quantitve easing you economic princes on Wall Street iniated drove food prices up. Oh wait..., I think I know this one..., the answer was in one of your other arguments...., one million! Right? ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Like what i find unbeleivable is that you claim what im saying is wrong but you refuse to find out for yourself. Yes i quoted the fuigure 1 million becasue thats the best estimate of how many people have died in Iraq as a direct result of the ivasion, i quoted 3 milion dead in vietnam because that is how many were killed in vietnam. Now what has happened in India and other isnt directly the fault of your goervbnemt or even your country for that matter (BTW the number that have strved is easi;y in the 10s of thousands,ok, look it up). Its the fault of the economic system and how its structureed. You the economic system operates on basis of maximising profits not feeding people. Sometimes these two things are aligned, sometimes there not and lots of people die, you hear about as statistics on some oxfam charity ad and think Jesus the world is fucked up, then you quickly change the channel to see how Charlie Sheen is gettin on never thinkin how these happen because you dont really have to deal with the consequences. Side: A resounding YES!
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what has happened in India and other isnt directly the fault of your goervbnemt or even your country for that matter YES! Finally! Something we are not being blamed for ;) BTW, do you know what our new pick up line here in the states is? "Hi. I'm a Japanese Nuclear Facility Technician. Would you like to see my spent fuel rod?" ;) OK, I guess that is insensitive but hell, I'm not Gottfried so I guess I don't have to do a public apology ;) Hey, you can rag on Charlie all you want but he still gets laid more than you ;) Side: A resounding YES!
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And what I'm telling you is that you are more fanatical than me and I already know that if a fanatic loves someone it is because that someone supports their fanatical world view and so therefore I will consider that someone a fanatic and I would thus be wasting my time if I took the advice of one fanatic and listened to another fanatic. You people are nuts and you need medical and psychiatric attention. If you were an American you would be able to apply for our nationalized health care and get these treatments for free ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Powerful logic Joe, i mean how can possibly argue with on that. So, Noam Chomsky is a fanatic is he, because his views arent aligned with those of some narrow minded ignorant American, then why was he voted the greatest intellectual alive, why is probably one the most repected men in the world, why do so many of the most intelligent and conscientious people in the world revere him, why is he the 2nd most quoted author in history, why is he head of the linguistics and plilosophy department at probably the best college in the world. No, hes obviously a fanatic, the cia should open up a can of whoop ass on him, right Joe. I mean if hes sepaking out against the red, white and blue hes obviously a fanatic, i mean theres no other possible explanation. You'd perfecetly well into the world George Orwells constructed in 1984, do you know that. Side: A resounding YES!
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No Joe you wouldnt have known about him, ive spoken about this before, the American population isnt exposed to anything that would be compeltely copunter intuitive to Maerican foreign policy, OK. If people were granted access to the truth the levelof dissent from moderates in partular would be astronomical. Side: A resounding YES!
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What are you talking about? We have Google. Hell...., we invented Google.... And the internet (look it up ;). If it weren't for the U.S., the rest of the world would still be throwing shit at each other. We are exposed to everything. We don't have a Chinese government to censor our internet. We have access to the truth. I have seen the truth and yours doesn't make sense. ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Have you ever read any philosophy, ok, ill assume you havent. Theres this thing branch called systems theory, which basically tries to elucidate how human beings organise themselves based on the various social systems they create, now Google is one the main reasons why there is any dissemnt in your country at all, and i can tell you there are many college students in a particular who are waking up to the reality of your government.Incidently, this is the main reason why NC has so much sway and is so revered by many students. Now the system your government has created, particularly the media (and the nationalism being drummed up in your country) is the primary reason that thr truth isnt getting through, you should be smart enough to know that these systems that are basically controlled by the governmenr and they reflect there agenda in one way or another, now i will admit if i were debating a philosopher on this he would most likely say that human behaviour and creativity would overide the government but the reason this isnt the case is becasue the culture thas essentially been modeled to drum out the level of free thinking required among people to lead to a real awakening. You see it all comes down to exposure, how many people look up the facts on google compared to how many people come home and listen to Bill O Reilly, think about it. Most people like the garbage their exposed to, they consume their cultural garbage rather than trying to live a wholey individual life. Then if you try to tell any of them that Bill O reill may be trying to pull the wool over their eyes, they dont want to hear it. Look i honestly beleive it will take a massive recession in your country before the majority will wake up to the reality of your elite corporate controlled government. Theres nothing like a bit of pain (you like the kind your government inflicts on other peoples) to wake peoepl up. Side: A resounding YES!
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there are many college students in a particular who are waking up to the reality of your government.Incidently, this is the main reason why NC has so much sway and is so revered by many students. Oh please! College students are liberal all the way to the point where they enter the work force and get their first pay check. Then they look at it and say, "What the hell? Who's FICA? And why are they getting so much of my money?" ;) Let me put it to you this way, when you put your ass through college, you know what you're capable of doing. You know that you are capable of taking care of yourself without mommy and daddy and the government. Liberal Europeans wouldn't know what to do if it wasn't for the government taking care of them. Stop suckling at the government tit. Be a man. Take care of yourself ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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you should be smart enough to know that these systems that are basically controlled by the governmenr and they reflect there agenda in one way or another Right. So you're stupid enough to listen to the systems that are basically controlled by some other government of your choosing. A system that reflects their agenda in one way or another ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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You see it all comes down to exposure, how many people look up the facts on google compared to how many people come home and read Noam Chomsky, think about it. Most people like the garbage their exposed to, they consume their cultural garbage rather than trying to live a wholey individual life. Then if you try to tell any of them that Noam Chomsky may be trying to pull the wool over their eyes, they don't want to hear it. ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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If you cant see the flaws in your own system then why should i continue to piont them out for you. I mean your just gona call me a fanatic again. Look your country is the rishest in the world, there is more wealth in your country than any where else on the planet, agreed. Now theres alos as much if not more inequality, homeless people, peopel living on the poverty line than anyother developed country, you cant compare to countries that are no where near as rich as you. Your country is ran by corporations who couldnt give a fuck about the well being of the people. Was that fanatical enough for ya. Side: A resounding YES!
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Oh, I see the flaws. I just don't care. I don't live their lives. When America prospers, I prosper. Does that mean I don't give a shit about them? No. I do care. But the problem is that my solution to their problem is not their solution. Let me go off on a tangent here. I am not gay. I have nothing against gay people. In fact, I wish they can get the same benefits as heterosexual married couples. However, their approach to the problem is different than mine. They want to change the meaning of the word marriage. They want to force heterosexual bigots to accept them. They think that they will be considered "normal" if they can force the government to accept their unions as a marriage. My approach? Forget about the heterosexual bigots. You will NEVER change their mind. There will always be a segment of the population that will NEVER consider them :normal." The word "marriage" is just a word. Married benefits is a very tangible thing. So, focus on what is tangible. Go for the benefits. It doesn't matter what the government or the rest of the population calls it. If they call it a "civil union" great. So long as they get their benefits. If my approach is NOT acceptable to gays, fine. Then force the government to stop using the word "marriage" and replace that word with the words "civil union" for EVERYONE. But no one wants this approach. So I don't care about either side. They get what they deserve. Whatever happens. Similarly, as long as there are fanatics against America, there will be American fanatics against their group. Whatever their group is. And I don't give a fuck about either side. They get what they deserve. The difference between you and me is that you have chosen a side ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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You have chosen a side as well Joe whether you realise it or not, you are basically too self interested to acknowledge what is really going on. I dont blame you for this, in fact your no different than most. Its much easier to beleive in a lie when that lie is gnerally accepted by most of the peopel around you, then once the truth is denied to you, you can get comfortable, its just when someone shows you, thats the problem. Side: A resounding YES!
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Well i dont beleive entirely beleive you given that ive been lookin at your arguments since long before i joined this site andn its quite apparent to me that you always take the nationalitic side, you always stand up for Americas actions, thats why i consider you a fanatic. Ive read alot of your arguments Joe you took a side a long time ago i imagine, maybe you just didnt realise it. Side: A resounding YES!
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Yes, I did take a side. I decided that it's a lot easier to piss off a liberal than to piss off a conservative. A conservative will just think you're nuts and never respond. A liberal keeps on coming back for more ;) Even after I flat out tell you that my intended goal is to get your goat, you don't let me down. One time you got so mad you called me an "idot" ;) My friends and I laughed at that one for a couple of days. What kind of an "idot" calls a person an "idot." ;) One would think that a scientist would at least know how to use spell check. But your grammar and rantings show that you can't be a very good one any way. Don't believe me? See how far you can advance in your career by having little temper tantrums and calling people "idots." ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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No, of course not. thats just how you've chosen to view my opnions. America is no more evil than any other country in the world and when your empire falls someone else will tyake your place e.g. China. And they may very well be alot worse than you eveer were. You see my piont that you've missed from the beginning due to your small mindedness is that America is the greatest terrorist nation on the planet, not because they are more evil than anyone else but becasue they are more powerful than anyone else. You may think my views are extreme but i can tell you that outside your little tiny suburban upper middle class world these views are far from radical. Once you get out of your country anti-american sentiment is not uncommon, it also isnt derived from fanaticism, unfair bais, hatred of your freedom or anyother bullshit propangda you've been taught to beleive OK. Its derived from the atrocious crimes commited in your name. Also, you think im full of conspiracy theories, this diesnt surpirse in the least. YOu been completely unwilling to check the veracity of any of the claims ive made, but dont you think its a little bit ignorant to label someone without even checking whther anythin he is saying is true. I suppose you probably just turned on fox news and went "ahhhhhhhhhhhhh, of course hes wrong. What a fanatic, this is the real truth. Thats it BIll tell us all how wwe should deal with the terrorists". I challenge you to find anything that i claimed to be true that is a conspiracy theory. Go on. back your claim up for change Joe. I know probably not used to it. Oh and by the way you can tell your rich Iraqis friends that they should be ashamed of themselves for welcoming America into their country when they know full well that the majority of their people are sufering greatly becasue of it. I have no respect for them. Side: A resounding YES!
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Have you even traveled outside of your country? I have. I take my little tiny suburban upper middle class savings and travel the world.That's how I know that your rantings are shit. Your world view is obtained from reading the books of a deranged man, N.C. ;) BTW, what crimes were committed in the name of Joe_Cavalry? I didn't know I was that popular ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Yes ive told you before i have trvelled to Ecuado, Peru,Bolivia, Venezuela, Cuba, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia,Hong Kong, and Iran. Ive also been to Britain, France and New York but i normally dont inculde those in that list. You think my entire world view has been obtained from reading N.C., Jesus no. Not that it wouldnt be enough, i mean the mans works are just so comprehensive. Please give me some credit, these views are the views of anyone whos gone out and tried to find things out for themselves. they have been shaped by a multitude of sources and experiences. I'm not even gona list them, ill just say this, there based as much on pro-american news as anti (if you can call it that). You should look up the American show demcoracy now, its not anti-american its just a news organisation that exists in your country thats actually free. BTW, these crimes are commited in the name of every american citizen, your passivity perpetuates them. Side: A resounding YES!
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I'm quite moderate actually. I mean how do you define moderate. I define a moderate as someone who doesnt beleive in anything extreme to the extent that he would be willing to participate and support extreme actions. Again, this just my definition. Now lets look at who the real extremist is, ok. You support the Iraq war, dont you. That has killed 1 million people most of them innocent, whether you think so not. Thats a pretty extreme view in my book, and even though it isnt in America, it is everywhere else you can be sure of it. Now i would oppose any pre-emptive military action by any country especially the US, but i get the sense that if your country wanted to go and fuck up Iran or another country you'd fully support them and you'd probably lie to others for them and say were going in there to "help them" You see you have and you would support these extreme actions while i would condemn them with every fibre of my being. So whos the real extremist, huh? Really Joe, get real man. You dont prefer moderates you prefer people with the same basic views you hold, maybe slightly different but essentially the same. Side: A resounding YES!
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OK, you call America the largest terrorist organization on the planet and you don't consider that extreme? Wow! How can we even begin to have a discussion if we are no where near the same plane? That has killed 1 million people most of them innocent If that's not hyperbole, I don't know what is. A million? Mostly innocent? America, all by itself did this? Again, wow! It's getting deep in here ;) if your country wanted to go and fuck up Iran or another country you'd fully support them and you'd probably lie to others for them and say were going in there to "help them" Actually, I would just tell you that we're going in there to help them just to hear you rant some more ;) But no, I wouldn't support such an action at this time. Our deficit is too large and we need to fix our economy first. Plus we need to manufacture 1 million more bullets to make up for the one we used up in Iraq and use them in Iran ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Firstly i dont see how using the 1 million figure is hyperbole, i mean thats how many have died, i already stated that they werent all killed by american bullets, best estimates put that at 100,000. Now your telling me given your history with Iraq, given what you've done to the country sicne 1990, the infrostructure destruciton, the sanctions, the invasion, given all these things you would not blame America for the 1milliion dead. I mena really Joe you call me a fanatic and then you refuse to acknowledge reality, i mean seriously like. Even hear you demonstrate how little you care about other peolpes, your like Obama who wasnt against invading Iraq because of the death and destruction it was going to cause, he was against becasue he thought your copuntry couldnt afforded. Your demonstrating a blatant disregard and respect for other peoples right to live happy secure and stable lives just like you. Ill bet if your economy picks up you'll jump on the bad wagon in support another 1 million dead, come fucking on, whos the real extremist hear. I could never condone such actions, your so brainwashed you'd probably participate in them. Side: A resounding YES!
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So, by your definition, every Iraqi that died between 1990 and the present is a direct result of American intervention because you claim that each one of those death can be attributed to either an American bullet or because of the infrastructure destroyed during the gulf wars, or the sanctions placed on Iraq. And I'm a fanatic? I think you're deluding yourself. ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Well i dont think every single death was Americas fault but you'd have to be an idiot to thinmthat 1 milion would have died in that country between 2001-2003 if your country and the UK (who by the way i view as being just as guilty) hadnt invaded. Now pior to that the sanctions were the primary cause of death and stravation your country and no other enforced these sanctions. You think im deluding myself, at least im willing to acknowledge whats true. Fuckin hell man get a clue for once in your life. Side: A resounding YES!
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No they fuckin didnt ok, that a toll of 1 millioni in the space of 10 yrs is 100,000 people a year does that sound normal to you, cause to me it sounds like a brtual war was goin on in that country. Plus the Iraqis population is like a quarter of the American population so dont try to compare them. Side: A resounding YES!
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I would consider it a drop in the bucket. Yes. There are about 115 automobile accident deaths every day in the U.S. And rush hour traffic still sucks. 100,000 a year is a little more than double but I doubt that it would make a very big dent in rush hour traffic ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Oh and by the way you can tell your rich Iraqis friends that they should be ashamed of themselves for welcoming America into their country when they know full well that the majority of their people are sufering greatly becasue of it. I have no respect for them. They laughed. Then they said that they fart in your general direction. They also said that they don't have any respect for your camel mother and your camel lover. They basically don't care what you think. Did I tell you that they refer to you as camel boy? Don't take it too hard, I think it is very fitting, don't you think ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Ya i dont actuall expect them to take me seriously.So they've seen monthy python have they, well good for them. Tell them i hopw they like the puppet government America choses for them, actually who i kidding people like are the ones who benefit, just like the elites in Egypt, i suppse tell them there whats wrong the world then. Side: A resounding YES!
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Have you ever asked yourself why terrorist exist Joe. NO seriously i liked to know why you think there are people out there who are willing to blow themselves up just to kill a few of your soldiers. Now i admit there religious nutballs but really that doesnt cover it completely. Like there are people in palestine who werernt even really religious who had good educaitons, one example if of a solitor who strapped explosives to himself and detonated in a busy Jewish shopping mall, he wasnt motivated by his religion he was motivated by his hatred of the Jewis and his hatred stemmed from the fact that the were responsible for killing mot of his family and mistreating him and his people for his entire life. Now ask yourself this simple question, do you think if your country wasnt such a bully of a nation and satyed within its own borders and never interfered with anyone else in anyway, do you think there would be terrorits out there ready to blow themseleves up just to kill a few americans? Side: A resounding YES!
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Terrorist think like you. They think the whole world is against them and is plotting 24/7 to achieve their goal. Now ask yourself this simple question, do you think if your country wasnt such a bully of a nation and satyed within its own borders and never interfered with anyone else in anyway, do you think there would be terrorits out there ready to blow themseleves up just to kill a few americans? 1. The world is moving towards globalization. It is impossible for any country to stay within its borders if it is to survive. Your world view is just too simplistic. You don't understand the deeper nuances and subtle consequences of such a world. You would have to turn the clock back hundreds, if not thousands, of years in order to achieve the world you are describing. You are feeling nostalgic ;) 2. It doesn't matter which world view wins. There will always be someone who doesn't like and will disagree with it. There will always be people willing to blow themseleves up in an attempt to change the world to something more to their liking. That's just human nature. It's been going on for centuries. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Ok, heres a argument i can actually take seriously, thank you. Its so much better than you usual, no offense. Terrorits dont think like me. I'm not religous, i dont condone any action that would cause another person harm so please stop comparing me to them, to be honest your alot closer in your views to those terrorists my friend, your the one whos been completely indoctrinated by your countries natioanlisitc ideoloy. I agree the world is moving towards globalisation, this does not mean that countries are going to move into each others territory, i dont know how you got it in your head that this is what globalisation means. So if you do understand the deeper nuances and subtle consequences please explain how globalisaiton infers the right to invade Iraq or prop up regimes all over the world to suit your own self interested agenda, please explain, i promise i will take the claims seriously. Look, what you dont realise is this is just how you have rationalised it to yourself. I'd like to think there a certain characteristics that are attributable to all humans, again beleive this becuase i have grown up in very didferent worlds (im not going to explain it to you because its personal) and i have done a lot of traveling in my short life so i have seen many different cultures. People (i think) are not very different, no matter where you go in this world. Also, the existence of terrorism against the US isnt really to do with globalisation, i mean im not saying you dont have a piont, casue you do. It is true that many islamic extremists want to preserve their traditional way of living (Sharia law etc.) but you seem to be incapable of realising that these people (at least the majority of them) would not be aginst the US if your country wasnt guilty of perpetrating such great crimes against them. I mean all societies have extremists, thats true, but what your country has done and continues to do fans the flames of this extremism in way than seems incomprehensibe to you. If your country wasnt guilty of the grave crimes it has perpetrated i can garauntee you that terrorism would not be a real danger in the world, it would have all but died out. What you have done is re-invigorated it and ensured its survival for a long time. Look, ill give you good example, right. Have you ever heard of the bloody sunday massacre, 14 innocnet civilians were gunned down by the british army in Belfast while on a protest march. My father was a teenagers when it happened (1972).I live in southern ireland very far from the north but the outrage that the incident caused insured that the provisional IRA survived and florished for a long time. In my fathers own class in school 3 of his friends went up to join, 2 of which were later killed in fighting (Tony Ahern and Dermot Crowley). This was the reaction in Cork the furthest part of the country from where it happened can you imagine the support it raised for the IRA in Belfast, young catholics all over the city were lining up to give up their live s for the IRA, it didnt matter whether they were extremists or moderates or whatever to begin with, they were all extremists now, do you not understand that the actions of your governemnt is breeding extremism, does that not make sense to you, and if not why not. Side: A resounding YES!
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explain how globalisaiton infers the right to invade Iraq or prop up regimes all over the world to suit your own self interested agenda I did not say it gives one the right. I said that it is a two edge sword. When all economies are tied together, one country attacking another will hurt, not only that country but the other countries as well as itself. However, when one country makes a decision that hurts you, regardless of the consequences, you will react. It would be great if America drills for its own oil in its own territory. But that is not how globalization works. Globalization is where each country does what it does best. If that means building cars, then so be it. If it means producing oil, fine. But when that country decides to us its monopoly (car production, oil production, whatever) to benefit itself at the expense of the other countries, then a country as powerful as the U.S. will not sit by and allow such a thing to happen. Side: A resounding YES!
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I think your view of globalisation is just as twisted as most of views. Globalisation doesnt explain any of things you claim ot does, globalisation is a very bad thing as it is by-in large based soley on incresing profits for already wealthy peopel. Look one of the results of globalisation is that poor people are forced into more slave labour in Asia and Soutrh American and Africa as they can make products at a mcuh chjeaper price, they tend to negledct the fact that those people are woking them selves to death just to put the baer minimum of food in their system. Also, i find your rationalisation weak, if globalsiation means that the US is going to lose money on oil production which means they'll lose thje title of greeatest super power then thats what should be allowed happen, thats why we have rules and a system of law, it doesnt giev them the right to invade other countries. If there was any justcie in thise world your country should have to answer for its crimes i.e. Goerge Bush and Tony Blair and Rumsfeld and Cheeny all on trial at the Hauge just like the Nazi leaders had to answer for their crimes. Now you didnt comment on my argument about increasing extremism, do you agree that Americans actions has increased terrorims 19 fold or do you disagree? Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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What gives the peoples of the world the right to deny the U.S. oil? If there was any justice in the world their countries would have to answer for their crimes in trying to "choke" the U.S. Increased terrorism is a bunch of crap. They are nothing more than opportunists. We haven't been attacked since 9/11 so Bush did the right thing to take the fight to them ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Oh i dunno maybe it has something to do with the fact that its their oil. Its their land, not yours, therefore its their oil. This comment is a clear demonstartion of how much of a extremist you are my friend seriously, your a nut. Try to imagine a scenario where the middle east invades america to steal your resources without any justification aside from the shit you just wrote. Side: A resounding YES!
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Their oil? Their land? Does a bear go to the stream and say, "Excuse me; Whose lake is this? I'd like to fish here." The land and the oil belongs to whoever is strong enough to take it. If they think they can come over here and steal our resources, then let them try. Last man standing gets to take it ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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People (i think) are not very different, no matter where you go in this world. Agreed. So to say that poor people are somehow better than the people you perceive to be screwing them up the ass is stupid because if the roles were reversed they would be the ones doing the screwing. It is what it is, it has been this way for ever, and it will never be any different. All that is required is to accept it for what it is and move forward ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Well...., we may be able to create a better world. But in order to do that, we'll have to break some eggs. You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs. So, if we get rid of the liberals, then we will be on the right track. Liberalism is a disease. Liberalism is a mental disorder ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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these people (at least the majority of them) would not be aginst the US if your country wasnt guilty of perpetrating such great crimes against them. It's not that I'm incapable of comprehending such a concept. It is that they are incapable of having any other perception. For example, as far as they are concerned, we are heathens. If we like to look at naked women, and women like to pose naked, then we are evil. If we are evil, then we should be exterminated like rats. If we do not accept Allah, we should be exterminated like rats. If we make fun of Allah, we should be exterminated like rats. If they desire to suffocate us by cutting off our oil supply, out life line, then we will exterminate them like rats. We would NOT be any better than they. But we won't feel any more guilty about it anymore than they would feel guilty about killing us. Here's how America works. If you give us what we NEED, we don't care what you do. We do NOT benefit by killing civilians. We are NOT OK with it. It creates more terrorists. They do not benefit by killing heathens. But they are OK with it. When we target terrorists and accidentally blow up civilians, we do not take to the streets and dance, burn their flag and shout, "Death to the Arabs/Islam." But they purposely target civilians and when they score big (like 9/11) they take to the streets and dance and burn our flag and shout, "Death to America." So when you say that we are worse than they are, it has not effect. Is it a bad situation? Yeah. Do I care? No. Do I feel guilty or bad? No. Do I take sides? Not really. You only perceive me as taking a side because you have taken their side. And the fact that I don't take your side automatically means (to you) that I have taken the other side. When in fact, I don't care. Side: A resounding YES!
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No Joe your demonstrating your ignorance again im afraid, actually ill respond to this when i have more energy, i had a big Wind Energy report to hand up today and i dint really feel like ranting on for 5 pages on how everything you wrtoe is absolute shit, but remind later and ill tell why i think that opinion is garbage. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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do you not understand that the actions of your governemnt is breeding extremism, does that not make sense to you It does make sense to me. Now, does it make sense to you that the actions of the terrorists (Actually, their position that the U.S. is Evil and that it should be destroyed), makes it impossible for us to trust them with our life force? We NEED that oil. We will NOT under any circumstance allow it to be denied to us. If they would just say, "You know what? We know you don't believe in Allah and we really don't expect you to convert and share our philosophy. But we can still get along and we'll sell you our oil." then things may be different..... if we believe their words. Bottom line, it takes two to Tango ;) They have brought American atrocities down upon themselves ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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this isnt which came the first eh chicken or the egg alright, the answer is quite obvious to anyone whos not completely ignorant (again im sorry that excludes you). You create terrorism, YUOU GOBERMENTS PPLOCIES. Your explaining it the other way round when the answer is readily available just look up the history of the middle east before you shoot your mouth off you ignorant prick. I mean fuckin hell you say this shit without knowing the full story. Its like accusing someone of murder even though the evidence is clear that it was self defense but you refuse to look at the evidence. Side: A resounding YES!
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What? Are you on drugs? They came to the U.S. to blow up the World Trade Center and kill thousands and you call that self defense? Your explaining it the other way round when the answer is readily available just look up the history of the middle east before you shoot your mouth off you ignorant prick. I mean fuckin hell you say this shit without knowing the full story. Its like accusing someone of murder even though the evidence is clear that it was self defense but you refuse to look at the evidence. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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they went in there for oil What the hell does that mean? That the U.S. attacked Iraq to keep the oil flowing? The oil was flowing. Why risk Saddam torching the oil fields and halting the flow of oil? Does it mean that the U.S. is now going in there with oil tankers, and filling them up with FREE oil? your country destroyed them So there were no foreign fighters committing acts of terror? There were no Sunnis committing acts of terror? And what possible benefit is there for the U.S. to so completely destroy the country (as you claim)? And is the U.S. not helping rebuild the country like they helped Japan, Germany and Europe rebuild after WWII? It should have been left down to the Iraqis people to depose Saddam. Was it not the Iraqi people who put Saddam on trial and executed him? Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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No, god no. They went in to control the oil, ive made this perfecetly clear. CONTROL, CONTROL CONTROL. read up on it, they didnt steal it they sent in Americn corporations that effectively stole it but made it seem all above board. read the articles, find your own. American corporations had a monopoly on where the oil went. NO, fuckin hell man im not even gona bother with this one, i dont have the time and it'll take far too long.Just take from me, YOU'RE WRONG. Yes it was, but your amry destroyed there country(I'm trying to resist the temptation to call you an idiot). Gulf 1, Inhuman Sanctions that crippled the country, Gulf 2. This destroyed the country, it had the most modern inforstructure in the middle east prior to this. Your country now steals its oil build bases in ground thats not belonged to them, treats its people like absolute shit (have you read any wikileaks reports, oh wait of course you havent). Julian Assange exposed exactly what was going on in Iraq and now hes been extradited to Sweden where a few of there politicians will send him onto the US where he could face execution or life for a flimsy espionage charge. Heres a man championing feedom of the press by leaking documents from whistle blowers but no we can't have your dirty secrets aried in public then you might lose support for your dirty wars. Its also rumoured that the private Bradley Manning is currently being tortured (e.g. sleep depravation, water boarding etc. etc.) in order for him to implicate Assange,as the espionage charge wont stick if he (Manning) came to Assange of his own free will. I cant vouch for the veracity of this. Side: A resounding YES!
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OMG! You are full of conspiracy theories, aren't you ;) I bet the U.S. government is also hiding extra terrestrials in Area 51 ;) Oh, and how about 9/11? Did the U.S. have a hand in that too ;) Here's what really ridiculous about your theory. The rest of the world wouldn't stand for it. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Are you incapable of taking anything i say seriously. "Its also rumoured that the private Bradley Manning is currently being tortured (e.g. sleep depravation, water boarding etc. etc.) in order for him to implicate Assange,as the espionage charge wont stick if he (Manning) came to Assange of his own free will. I cant vouch for the veracity of this." This is the only rumour i have ever presented to you. I may seem like all the other stuff is just a bunch of antiamerican propaganda cooked up by some evil terrorist but its not.Ive asked you time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time again not to take my word for it and to challenge anything i say with your owns facts. If you werent such a lazy piece of shit you would have done this and learned something about your "holy than thou" government. But no its much easier to pounce on the one rumour ive ever presented (which i acknmowledged to be a rumour) and which i explicitly stated couldnt vouch for its veracity. Your just idiot, an ignorant American idiot and you do your country proud.The stereotype really is true. You your obviuosly an reasonaly intelligient guy but your level of ignorance indicates to me that there really isnt any hope for the rest of your country, there never gona wake up from their fantasy. Side: A resounding YES!
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Well think about Joe, you've pulling my chain (excuse the euphemism) for quite a while now and im still reponding. And ill continue to repsond as long as im stuck on computers everyday which is gona be a while considering my masters which ends in september, so make all the stuoid jokes you want. Side: A resounding YES!
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The Wikileaks story is real. Please look it up, i have no doubt this has been distorted to an unbeleivable extent in your press if it has been reported at all. This is very serious indeed, an australian man, a champion of free and transparent reporting is being extradited to the US where he could face the edath penalty(even though i doubt they'd be brazen enough to actually kill him) or the much more likely life imprisonment. Your suposed to be supporters of feree speech but this is closer to something a archaic society would do e.g. Saudi Arabia. He was extradited from Britain who grant asylm to notorious terrorits and fraudsters, he will be quickly tried in sweden where he'll be shuffled off to the US in order to set an example to anyone else who dares to expose US TERRORISM.He's done nothing wrong, he hasnt even singled the US out, hes published alot more on other countries but no we can't have someone airing US dirty laundry in public can we. You know you claim not to care but not caring means the demons of this world get to run amuck. Do you want your society to turn into 1984s offspring (it will be a lot closer to a brave new world but i doubt you've read this).You can call this the ranting of some crazed irish lunatic and show all your rich iraqis firends if you chose but i beg you to check this out for yourself. Here's a quote from the philosopher Edmund Burke; "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Side: A resounding YES!
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Didn't you get the memo? The end of the world will begin on May 21 and end on October 21. Don't take my word for it. Check it out yourself here: http://ebiblefellowship.com/may21/ If you don't want to read it, watch the video here: http://www.youtube.com/ So it doesn't matter. ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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I dont actually think you have read anything of the sort from any reliable source. At least i would be quite surprised if any source that could be deemed reliable would publish such utter nonsense. I mean even intuitively it makes no sense, do really mean to tell me you think the Iraqis are happy with America, i mean really man, think about it. There country is fucked and because of America, they've destroyed their infrostructure and stolen their oil and continue to do so). And still America refuses to leave. You see there not gona leave either, at least not completely, there will probably be some withdrawls in a few years time once a suitable puppet government (like Mubaraks) has been put in place under theh guise of free and fare elections and some police force and amry (that serve only the government and hence America) tht is capable of keeping the peace is put together. But they'll keep the American soldiers stationed there why do you think they've built so many bases. That place is great for keeping an eye on big bad Iran and theres still plenty of oil. Side: A resounding YES!
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So who do you blame? The U.S. soldiers? The U.S. government? The U.S. companies? The U.S. citizens? Everyone that has anything to do with the U.S.? And how exactly do they steal the oil? And why are the Iraqis so helpless that they can't do anything for themselves? And what about non-Iraqi, non-American militants; do they get to share in the blame? And what about other countries, their governments, their citizens, their soldiers; do they get any part of the blame? Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Were discussing America if you feel knowledgeable enough to discuss the faults and failing of other countries id be happy to, the reason i continue to point these things out tio you is you insist on leving a fantasy that has been proved wrong time and time again. I would answer those questions but to be honest i dont think theres a piont. Side: A resounding YES!
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When you bitch about America, are you referring to the Government, soldiers, citizens, corporations, what are you talking about? You are either referring about every American man, woman and child or your are referring to a very specific few. Which is it? Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Well you see they are all intertwined. American corporation have effective control of your ogvernment and your media. YOur government control the armed forces so that just leaves the people. The people are lead to beleive a lie, namely; that your copuntry is never wrong, you represent everything thats good and true about humanity. Everything you absorb perpetuates this lie e.g. all your tv station, majoirty of movies, news etc etc. So you see its the passivity and ignorance of the people that allows these thing to happen and contiue happening. They want to beleive the lie as it clears them of any guilt and when everyone else beleives it, it makes it very easy to beleive. This is what perpetuates the suffering cause by your country.I'm sorry your too blind to see that. As Orwell wrote "hope lies with the proles". Side: A resounding YES!
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What source please tell me id love to check it out for you, what is it soem CNN special or just something you made up. I can direct to my sources if you really want(there are plenty) but im surprised you can seriously disagree with the sentiment. I mean how this it make sense in your head that Iraqis would be thankful for whats happened to their country, the continuing occupation, they extraction of their oil by US corporate power. How doe this make sense to you and dont just make some bad joke or say your not serious. Either admit your wrong or else say your so pig ignorant that you'd rather live with the comfort of the lie as it lets you beleive in all the fairy tales you hold so dear. Side: A resounding YES!
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you havent even tried to check the info. ive given you, you've simply dismissed it. you havent given me any sources of info. to check either you simply made grand claims about this or that and backed them up with nothing. Of course I dismissed them, they are slanted left. Show me something that is more towards the center. Of course I have not given you any info for any of my sources. Why should I do that? Is it going to change your mind? The truth is somewhere in the middle. As long as your stance is pegged to the left, I am not going to take it seriously. Just like I don't take the right seriously. Extremism is bad for the world. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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How do you know they are slanted left if you didnt even check them?You just assumed they were. Why not look at them and tell me how they are slanted left, exactly how they are distorting or misrepresenting the facts, seriously id like to know im not joking. Why dont take the time and get back to me on this. Side: A resounding YES!
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How do you know they are slanted left if you didnt even check them? How do you know I didn't check them? You can't make that assumption because you lack proof, yet you go off and jump to conclusions. I claim they are slanted left because they start making accusations and laying blame (America). That's a waste of time. Just like it is a waste of time for the right to start making accusations and laying blame (The terrorists). Who cares who is at fault. It doesn't matter. What does matter is what are we going to do about it. People should sit down and talk about what to do, not sit around and point fingers saying, "It's your fault!" Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Well assuming you didnt check them was the fairly logical thing to do when you didnt mention any thing about them or there indicative content. You didnt try to say this was wrong, you didnt try to disporve any of the claims made in them you merely said they were left. I dont know what game your trying to play but i hope your haveing fun, funny isnt people like us can relax talk sit on our computers, drive in our big cars go home to our big houses and then the majority speaks up so we get worried and go over and bomb them or control them (yes europe is complicit in americas actions for the most part even though they like to thinktheir not) People are talking about the 2012 apocalipse, well that talk is only going on in the west most people in the developing world dont have the luxury of being able to anticipate it. Now i dont what you think of me but i really do care about the information, i watch many newstations and read many newspapers. Watch britsh (BBC, ITV and Sky News), i watch American (CNN and FOx News), Russian (RT), Greater middle eastern news (Aljezeera english siutated in Quatar),French news (Frace 24) and many other stations and websites and newspapers also and i watch all the news stations in my own country. So you see i get a lot of views from all sides. I also listen to and read articles from many politcial philophers, writers, independent journalists & non-independent and spokesmen on all sides i could list over 50 names from a diverse range of countries and points of view that i regularly keep track of but i wont. I dont side with the left, i dont know why you keep making this assertion, its just like the radical claim, you want to categorise me because i have anti-american views but you fail to ask yourself why i have these views. Im Irish, my country is by and large very friendly to america so my views are not the product of my culture or the news i receive, im not religious in any way so thats out to, ive been to america and i like it, i like ameican people so i dont have any personal bias against america itself so what it is, what do you think it is. Do you think even just for one second that i may have looked at the facts objectively (as im a scientist and its my fucking job) and made up my mind based on my own morals and understanding of right and wrong. Or is that just too hard for you to comprehend. Now, i consider my self a pacifist as ive said before, but im also a pragmatic realist. You need to realise that saying that shit dont clear you of gthe guilt associated with your government commiting barbaric acts of international terrorism. Your country is responsible for some extremely horrible crimes and they need to be held accountable in some way or least the world needs to acknowledge it otherwise it will continue, how can you not see this. Blaming people does nothing, so why are people sent to jail, oh he killed his wife then set an orphanage on fire but heh why piont the finger what good will that do (Unlike your anaolgies this is actually valid but i dont expect you to see that). Im sorry friend but you really have left me no chioce, you are an idiot and you seem very happy to be one. I guess ignorance really is bliss. Side: A resounding YES!
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I didn't respond because I thought it was a waste of time. I actually thought it was funny when I said that you were one of the smartest idiot I know and you were like, "I'm glad to see your responses have become more cordial." ;) Look, why don't you stop being a whiny little bitch, grow a pair of balls, be a man and do something about it. Don't just go on a debate site and complain. I have a new found respect for Egyptians and the other Arabs that are finally taking charge of their lives and they are saying, "We have had enough and we are not going to take it any more!" But you.... sigh...., you're a disappointment. I find it interesting how you say nothing about the oppressive Arab governments. I guess it's OK for them to kill lots of people. Peace out ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Well i expected you to think im an idiot given that my views are so far removed from your own, i was responding to the fact that you acknowledged i was smart and stopped ridiculing my arguments and began to conduct something that resembled an argument. You can call me what you want you, its water off a ducks back you can be sure of that, also i am doning something about it. Be a man, thats hilarious, id love just to get a look at you see how much of man you are. I was born in one of the roughest areas of my state and i was picked on from the moment i stepped out the door believe me, i am a man and i kknow it, ive got the scars to prove. I said this before i dont say anything about the repressive arab governements because by-in large they dont inferfere with other countries OR is that just to much for you to understand, i think so.Ill tell you what, ill grow a pair of balls if you grwo a fucking brain, does that sound fair?Peace out you ignorant idiot. Side: A resounding YES!
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What are you, Palestinian? If you want peace, you have to change your government. If you don't want Israel attacking you, change your government and make peace with Israel. As long as there is no peace with Israel, Israel will continue to commit atrocities. And history has shown, time and time again, that the world does not really care. The world will not do anything to make life better for you. You have to do that on your own. History has also shown that terrorism does NOT work. It only makes life harder. It makes the strong country commit more atrocities. Look at the Egyptians. They made peace with Israel and Israel did not commit atrocities on the Egyptian people. The Egyptian government committed atrocities. Now the Egyptian people have removed their government. Now the Egyptian people can put in a good government and have peace with Israel. Life is good. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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You see ive said from the start that you dont have all the info. but you refuse to acknowledge this as if you did it wouldnt agree with your core beliefs. Firstly, Isreal doesnt want peace with the palestinians and the revelations about the negotiations recently prove that.The palesetianians were willing to make more concessions than any palestianian would ever have agreed to. Less than half of the land stolen in th e1067 war and Isreal still refused, they still refused. Change your givernment, dont make me laugh, HAMAS is democratically elected unlike FATAH (who were willing to sell their own people done the river), theres a reason the U.S. and Isreal klike FATAH.They are portrayed as being palestianian but very few palestianians want them inpower or agree with their policies andthey dont even know alot of what they are doin. FATAH (at the behest of the U.S.) even prevented Isreal from being brought up on war crimes for the massacre in gaza. America line the pockets of FATAH just like they do in egypt and many other countries TO MAINTAIN CONTROL.Egyptians made peace with Isreal, you really dont even know how stupud you sound do you. Ive stated this before, the ruling elite (~1-2% of the population) led by Mubarak made peace with Isreal as the U.S. promised them a whole lot of money. Then an era of poverty and hardship began for the egyptian people.if you think that the new egyptian governement is gona let Isreal continue to kill and mistreat the palestian people you are sadly mistaken, now im not saying their gona wage war but im fairly cofidnet their gona end the inhuman bloackde of Gaza and probably alot more.Isreal is rightfully worried and people like you are gona be proved wrong (as you always are).Maybe if i keep posting these facts again and again and again your little pee brain may absorb them at some stage. Side: A resounding YES!
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Now you get though how to thought how to commit terrorism on a much larger scale. Napalm, agent orange, devastation on a much larger scale. if your army just blew up a few buses you'd just piss people off but when you blow up whole towns and commit genocide, then people get fucking scared that they'll be next. Thats part of the reason the U.S. controls so much of the worlds resources and that a large part of the reason you live such a comfortable life you fucking idiot. Side: A resounding YES!
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OK, you found out the "real" reason. OK, I'll tell you the rest. We are working on unmanned airplanes so that we can control them with X-Box from our home and blow people up around the world. We are also working on a robot that has a club and you control it with the Wii. When you swing the Wii controller, the robot bashes someone on the head with the club. For the Sony Playstation we are working on unmanned airplanes also but they are loaded with explosives so that we can crash them into crowded apartment buildings and blow the whole thing up. It's great fun. But now that you discovered our secret, we may have to cancel the program. Maybe if you come for a visit I can demo these games for you and you may like them enough not to tell the world what we are doing ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Oh come on, you should try it, you dont know what your missing. Ball sweat is like the nectar of gods, sweet ambrosia. The soma of the Ric Veda. Ball sweat just drips right down your throat and consumes your very being.It gives you that big warm hug that tells you everything is alright.Its intoxicating scent is all powerful, its stimulates the olfactory nerves with that enticing aroma of clamy watery salty sticky heaven.IT IS THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT OF AdAM AND EVE. Ball sweat.Ball Sweat.Ball sweat.Ball sweat.Ball sweat.Ball sweat.Oh ya i think im gettin a woody. Side: A resounding YES!
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Now i dont just want to win a debate i want to try to let people know what i know, they can make of it what they will, people make up their own minds in the end whether or which.What is very important is that people make up their minds when they have all the info. I do not believe this. You provided your information. Then, when it looked as though I made up my mind against the information, you got mad and called me a stupid idiot. You did not just leave me alone. You kept on trying to change my mind. Here's my take on this whole thing. You are passionate about your beliefs. Great! I do not share some of those beliefs. You seem to want to blame America for the problems of the world. America has caused a lot of problems around the world. However, they have also caused a lot of good. The bottom line is this. If people are not happy with their situation, they need to do something about it, like the Egyptians. They need to stop blaming other people for their problems and do something about it locally. People should not expect outside help. They should take care of it themselves. If they are powerless to do anything about it, then they need to suck it up until they are strong enough to force change. Complaining does not help. The world does not care. If the world cared, they would help. People blame America but there are a lot of countries out there that could help. And they don't. People need to take control of their own countries and destinies. People should commit terrorist/sabotage acts against their own repressive governments. Not the governments of other people. People should be willing to die to change their country. People should not be willing to die to change another country. I cannot give you a link to my point of view because it seems like the only point of views out there are either liberal or conservative. I try to think outside the box. people have been taking side on the left and on the right for decades and nothing has changed. Maybe it is time to try something different. Something more like what I'm proposing. Peace out mon! ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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I will admit to some opf this i am passionate about my beliefs your right and yes i did try hard to change your mind but the only reason i called you an idiot is cause firstly of you treated just as bad as i treated you and secondly you made grand claims with nothing to back them up (really if i want to watch fox news thats where ill go). I will try to change anyones mind i never leave a debate unless i have been conclusively beaten (and yes this has happen plenty of times before its actually how i learned alot of what i know and how i cam eto be good at debating) or i succeed in changing the other persons mind or least gettin them to acknowledge that im correct. Maybe i am overly critical of America but america are hated in the world today for a reason.You may not see this where you live but take my word its there. Americas elites (goverment, corporations) exist in opulent wealth while the majority live in squalor, this is a gross generalissation but a valid one. People should not expect outside help, yes i agree but they should also not be interfered with externally thats what your failing to grasp. Amercia put a puppet government in Iran to control its oil, he mistreated his people greatly (the Sha) which spread extremism (just like the policies of the U.S. today i could cite so many examples but im not going to) then the people revolted and because so many moderates had been driven to extremism the islamic republic was born.So who do you blame for the creation of this extreme stae the people for supporting the regime that kicked out the evil dictator or the giobernment that put him there (U.S.) i happen to think you should blame the latter. America dosent help anyone, stop thinking this cause its just not true. Look up all the conflicts they were involved post WW2 (whioch was the only justified one)."Lots of countries that could help but they dont" fuckin hell i think this will be the first time ive ever left a debate with the result undecided.you honestly think america goes into other countrie to help them dont you. Ill say it one last time; AMERICA HAS NEVER AND WILL NEVER INTERFERE WITH ANOTHER COUNTRY TO HELP, IT DOS IT TO FURTHER ITS OWN STRAGETIC INTERESTS, THIS TAKES MANY FORMS, BUT THEY CAN ALL BE CLASSIFIED UNDER GEOPOLITICAL INTERESTS, THEY STEAL COUNTRIES RESOURCS, KILL THEIR PEOPLES AND DESTROY THE ENVIROMENT.Now you can think whatever you want im sure it gives you alot of comfort to beleive what you believe, if you believe what i do you might feel the need to do something about itm, given hat your tax dollars contribute to such suffering, so you see its easier for you to believe the lie cause its better for you than the truth. Having to acknowledge the truth is always the bitterest pill to swallow and people fight to avoid it. I dont get this paragraph at all please elaborate. I formulate my own opinions. You keep saying im on the left yuor just associating my opinions with what you think you know.Im not liberal or conservative or left or right or anything in my opinion there two sides of the same coin and both as bad as each other(and in the case of US thats pretty bad). I not taking a side against the American people, ive got nothing against them their subject to the most complex propaganda system ever invented of course their views are going believe it. Seriosly look it up, it all started with sigmund freuds cousin Bernase. You aborb this without even realising it and it shapes your opinions most americans have never left their country, this also very bad, i was taken by my parents to places insouth america and asia all thorugh my life and it really broadened my mind and gave me an appreciation for how the other side live and the injustice they live with and how so much of it can be traced back the U.S. (i taking here about south america and south east asia in particular).I acknowledge China is responsible for a lot of suffering in greater asia. Peace out. Side: A resounding YES!
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(really if i want to watch fox news thats where ill go) and if I want to be exposed to liberal ideas, I'll search them out myself. People...should also not be interfered with externally You can blame Globalization for that. One way to keep country A from interfering with country B is if country B choses isolationism and is strong enough to resist outside forces from opening them up for trade. Another way is for country B to have nothing of value. Either way, it would be nice if country A did not interfere with country B but that is just not the way the world works. Country A can disappear tomorrow and country C would take its place. I don't deal in wishful thinking, I deal in reality. Thats what you're failing to grasp. .So who do you blame for the creation of this extreme state I don't blame anybody because looking for someone to blame is fruitless. I look at the current situation and I try to think of ways to change the situation. Sending people to blow themselves up in other countries is fruitless. Terrorism has not improved the lives of the people they claim to be fighting for. Terrorist would be able to improve the lives of the people they claim to be fighting for if they sabotaged their oppressive governments. America dosent help anyone, stop thinking this cause its just not true. America taught the world that it is possible to revolt against a world power and win independence (American war for independence from England). America taught the world that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. I dont get this last paragraph at all please elaborate. When I say I formulate my own opinions, I mean that I don't buy into the liberal view nor do I buy into the conservative view. So when you present to me a link that is clearly political, it doesn't carry much weight with me. Side: A resounding YES!
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Comparing globalisation to what America has done deeply upsets me. I dont know how this makes sense to you, how can you compare this with cia coups that install terrorist dictators trained at the notoriuos school of the Americas in california, thats right the cia actually set up a school to train these guys in the art of coercion before they toppled democratically elected governments.You may remember Augousto Pinoche, he tranied there before a cia coup put him in charge of chile and an era of great suffering and pain began in that country but the U.S. got alot of money from it so who cares right, Placing blame is friutless. I happen to think your are gravely mistaken on this piont, maybe in your eyes that makes me an extremist but i happen to think if countries are not held accountable history just repeats itself. WHAT YOUR FALING TO GRASP IS that this is going on right now and people like you who fail to acknowledge it are the reason it is allowed to continue. But he your not one living in abject poverty or suffering greatly with no quality of life so its easy for you to come out with that "i like think of ways of to change the situ." bullshit. Ya right that just helps you sleep at night. "America taught the world that it is possible to revolt against a world power and win independence (American war for independence from England). America taught the world that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." Again, i dont know where to begin, fucking hell man, you really believe that bullshit, i mean you dont just beleive it but you've internalised it. You make your own opinions, dont make me laugh you think exactly what they want you to think and your incapable of opening your mind to anything else. Peace out for the last time.This is piontless im wasting time here i know now. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Comparing globalisation to what America has done deeply upsets me. The more connected countries become, the more they will be inclined to tell each other what to do since their actions will affect each other. WHAT YOUR FALING TO GRASP IS that what is going on right now is exactly what needed to happen decades ago. People in the Middle East finally get it and they are revolting against their oppressive governments. The people in the Middle East are finally having their war of independence. Don't you see that? They finally realize that government derives its power from the people being governed. If the people of Egypt no longer want to be governed by Mubarak, then Mubarak will not be able to stay in power. The proof is right there and you refuse to acknowledge it. You wanted me to show you and you said that it would change your mind. Well, I am showing you ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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You really are brainwashed. Firstly why can you not say that YOUR government is responsible for Mubarak in Egpyt, Ben Ali in Tunisia and all the others. Do you not ever question why it is that Iran are demonized so much in your meida yet the brutal regime of Saudi Arabia is never mentioned even though from what is known about them they are much more brutal, represive government (but he they play by your geovernemnts rules). I cant actually beleive you compared your war of independence to the Egyptian revolution.Why cant you see thatv what the people of the middle east are revolting against the the foreign interference of Western governments (primarily yours) propping up brutal dictators in roder to control the flow of OIL. You're just so blind. Let me ask you a question, you think your government supported the Egyptian revolution dont you, so why do you think there trying so hard to ensure that Omar Sulliman is the next dictator.Mubabrak was just a man, your government told him to step down when they realised his position had become untenable, but the government in place there is the same one thats been there for the last 30 years. America dont want real democracy in any of the middle east why is so hard for you to see that. Cant you not understand that if the middle east actually had governments that were for the people your government would lose out massively cause suddenly their governments would be using their countries wealth for the betterment of their own people and not the ruling elite and foreign power. Do you know how worried your government are right now that they may for the first time lose their iron grip on the middle east nad at the same time they have to walk the tight rope of pretending to be for democracy casue thats the lie they successfully been able to shove down the throats of so many americans. BELEIVE ME LEAVE YOUR COUNTRY, GO ANYWHERE ELSE AND ASK A RANDOM PERSON DOES AMERICA STAND UP FOR DEMOCRACY. You people want to beleiev the lie thats the problem. Side: A resounding YES!
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America dont want real democracy in any of the middle east I think America has been told that repressive governments is the only form of government that the Middle East understands. I mean, what's the ratio of democracies in the Middle East to repressive governments? Can you name one democracy in the Middle East? Are you saying that America supports every repressive government on none of the democracies? What are you talking about? ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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What am i talking about. Im talking about the fact that middle eastern peopel havent been allowed have their own self determination, primarily because of your governments involment. Ive stated from the beginning America support whoever plays be their rules and invariably the governments who do that dont provide much for their own people as America is by-inlarge exploiting that countries resources. Listen to yourslef; I think America has been told that repressive governments is the only form of government that the Middle East understands So, those uncivilised arabs just arent capable of governing themselves.ya, there much better off with a brutal dictator that will make their existence on this planet hell. Hey aslong as we get our oil and the muslim brotyherhood dont get into power. Side: A resounding YES!
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So, those uncivilised arabs just arent capable of governing themselves.ya, there much better off with a brutal dictator that will make their existence on this planet hell. Hey aslong as we get our oil and the muslim brotyherhood dont get into power. Correct. Except that they are finally coming around to becoming more civilized. However, history teaches us that when there's a revolution (like the one in Egypt) and they succeed in overthrowing the government, there's a power vacuum. Then a group rises up and unites the people by pointing to an outside enemy (probably Israel). If they resist the urge to attack the straw man presented to them by the group rising to power, then their lives will improve. If not....., they will fall back into oppression. Side: A resounding YES!
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Your debating serious issues, if you want to talk shit why dont you go create a debate with some of these titles: •Who make better companions - cats or dogs? •Is summer the best season of the year? •Is Rock 'n' Roll the best kind of music? •Vampires vs werewolves? •Hamburger vs cheeseburger? •Jim Carrey or Adam Sandler? •Funny movies vs scary movies? •Guys with Tight pants or pink T-shirts. •Pirates vs Ninjas •Tandoori chicken vs plain chicken •Do vampires get AIDS from sucking infected blood? •Edward Cullen or Jacob Black •Why I always come late to class as opposed to why i am never late to class. •Should dating techniques be taught in schools? •Are there any advantages of wearing braces? •Is the Barbie doll an icon? •What if there was no Harry Potter? •Long pants or Short pants? •Are Ghosts real? •Should girls be allowed to wrestle? •Should crushes be taken seriously? •Are UFOs a hoax? The you talk about whatever you want, your sweaty balls, how ignorant you all are, how fun it is to label all arabs terrorist etc. etc. Side: A resounding YES!
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I have to say no. Not because of any flaw in non-violence (plenty of economic, social and political strategies can be used to disrupt terrorist activities without firing a shot), but rather because I don't think terrorism can BE destroyed. There will most likely always be violence, hate, "us vs. them" mentalities, etc. All we can do is try to mitigate it as best we can, which is probably best accomplished through a combination of violence and non-violence. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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No, terrorists will never stop their attacks upon other countries. They may say that USA and the UK are killing Muslims. Yes, they are killing Muslims, however the USA and the UK are killing Muslims(under a dictatorship such as Saddam Husein) who are killing other Muslims! So therefore terrorists can not attack other countries. Not only are they attacking the west, they are also attacking Muslim countries in the east! In fact, their real aim is to spread Islamic extremism, which results in many deaths. They are so determined, they kill others, even if it cost them their own lives! So therefore it can only be destroyed to destroy terrorist groups completely. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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Non-violence cannot defeat terrorism but then nothing can 'defeat' terrorism. Terrorism is a tactic an under certain conditions it becomes a seemingly logical tactic for it's proponents. Looking at all terrorists rather than narrowing in on the Islamic Extremists shows this. Terrorists exist in many places because terrorism is one of the last resorts in a conflict. If your enemy has nukes, bombers, drones, helicopters, missiles, aircraft carriers, satellite imaging, tanks and special forces while you have an AK-47 and an online bomb recipe terrorism seems a lot more appealing than conventional warfare. The goal of terrorism is to cause sufficient fear in the general public to force a government to take or not take certain actions. Non-violence would not succeed in preventing terrorism but neither would violence. At this point in time terrorism cannot be defeated and as weaponry becomes more powerful and requires less personal risk it is likely to become a more serious threat. Anyone can buy a drone now, it's only a matter of time before someone starts using drone bombs or manages to use some of the more dangerous weapons that the US sells to unstable dictators like Saddam Hussein or terrorists like Osama bin Laden (or before they arm someone like ISIS enough for it to be a more serious threat). Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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No, terrorists aren't exactly going to sit down and think "oh, that person doesn't want to hurt anyone, I'll purposely avoid them when I'm choosing what I want to destroy!" They don't care how good you are to them - they have their own beliefs, they don't pick and choose who to kill, they just want to kill. For example, if you look at ISIS, they want the whole world to be a part of their empire. It wouldn't matter whether everyone else said "we don't want to fight". They're still going to try and take over the world. I won't deny that some terrorists are only terrorists because of violence - but if we weren't to use violence, the smaller amount of terrorists would still be able to kill more people because we wouldn't be defending ourselves. Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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They're still going to try and take over the world. Like Pinky and the Brain ;) but if we weren't to use violence, the smaller amount of terrorists would still be able to kill more people because we wouldn't be defending ourselves. In theory we could defend ourselves with out violence by increasing security like TSA at the airport ;) Side: What? Are you on drugs?
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