CreateDebate


Debate Info

Debate Score:27
Arguments:25
Total Votes:27
More Stats

Argument Ratio

side graph
 
 Christians - What would it take? (22)

Debate Creator

pirateelfdog(2655) pic



Christians - What would it take?

Ok, so this is a kind of dated thing that I'm referencing here, but in the somewhat recent debate between scientist Bill Nye and creationist Ken Hamm contained one question that I've been thinking about since. The question was this:

What, if anything, could ever change your mind?

 

Bill Nye was quick to answer: He'd just have to see any one piece of evidence that suggested that God existed and that the science he knew was wrong. He would immediatly change his view of the world, jsut as scientists do whenever a new discovery is made.

Ken Hamm, on the other hand, evaded the question slightly and ultimately gave his answer: Nothing.

 

 


I think this is an important question, and the answers I tend to get when I pose this question to religious people tend to be pretty much in line with Hamm's response, and that continues to drive me away from religion in general. 

When I made the point to RightWing11 that I believed that "if no proof, logic or reasoning could ever change your thoughts, then you are not mentally well.", they responded by claiming my argument was "so abusive that I do not really wish to chat about your comment much more."


I do not think my point was abusive, and the lack of an actual response helps back that up in my mind. But hey, maybe I'm wrong. If what I said was abusive, I would like to correct my actions. 

 

The fact that people beleive things so unconditionally is very scary to me because to me, that is a sign of mental illness, or perhaps mental inhibition is a better term. Or simple-mindedness. If you believe something so wholly that no logic or reasoning will ever convince you otherwise, then it seems to me that you are being extremely close-minded, illogical, or just plain foolish. Because most people's religions come from their upbringing and not by their choice, the fact that people refuse to even look at reasons not to believe what they have been told to believe I think is very dangerous. 

 

 

 

So to Christians, and all relgious people, I'd like to ask the same question: What, if anything, would ever change your mind about the existence of God? 

If the answer is nothing, can I hear some justification for that? I don't want to be rude, I'd seriously like to here the reasoning behind this.

 

 


Note: Just to be clear, I have no problems with following the moral guidence of a relgion or group. I think many of the valeus that many religions espouse are very valuable, I just take issue with the justification of these morals coming through a 'God.'

Add New Argument

So to Christians, and all relgious people, I'd like to ask the same question: What, if anything, would ever change your mind about the existence of God?

I believe many Christians will answer "nothing" because many do not know of anything that could. Usually, if you are trying to change someone's mind you will have to present them with something. If someone has already made a decision to believe in God then everything they currently know must agree with their decision. In that case, you would have to present them something new. I think a better answer would be "I'm not sure".

2 points

Nothing would really change my mind. I've seen God's hand in not only my life but also the life of others and how God transformed them. I'm sticking with it till I die.

1 point

Can you explain that a little more? Like, if something happened that made you sure Christianity is correct, what was that? And why is it irrefutable?

2 points

Since this is directed specifically at Christians, I would like to know what it would take for them to not believe in Jesus.

If God himself spoke to you and said "Jesus is not real", would your beliefs change?

1 point

As you put in the description, I DO think that calling somebody 'mentally ill' is abusive, however, I will try to answer your question, 'what would it take to change my mind?'

The answer is, it is unlikely. Howver, if all of my Christian friends turned away from God, then it would not be easy to stick to the truth. But, like I said, it is unlike that this would happen.

1 point

As you put in the description, I DO think that calling somebody 'mentally ill' is abusive

The reason it isn't abusive is because there are much stronger words that would better convey how bad he thinks your position is and are definitely abusive. If you catch a cold and you get a stuffy nose your nose doesn't work properly and you are considered ill. If the tools used by the brain will not cause your brain to function in such a way that you can determine that your brain is thinking something that is incorrect it is ill. That just means it isn't working properly.

The answer is, it is unlikely. Howver, if all of my Christian friends turned away from God, then it would not be easy to stick to the truth. But, like I said, it is unlike that this would happen.

Further indication that you are mentally ill. The only way you will change your mind is if someone elses mind functions properly and figures out something is wrong. If the nose clogs up and gets the mouth to stay open for breathing would you still say that the nose is functioning properly?

Cuaroc(8829) Clarified
1 point

So the only way for you to not believe in god would be peer pressure?

1 point

You have an imaginary friend who you feel the need to constantly communicate with. That sounds pretty mentally ill to me.

1 point

As you put in the description, I DO think that calling somebody 'mentally ill' is abusive,

I agree, but I don't think I called you mentally ill. My argument (or at least the goal of my argument) was that the behavior of unconditional belief is not one that I think is/should be practiced by people in full mental health.

The answer is, it is unlikely. Howver, if all of my Christian friends turned away from God, then it would not be easy to stick to the truth. But, like I said, it is unlike that this would happen.

So you're only a Christian because other people are Christians? How does that reflect your own person belief?

1 point

I agree

Why? That is an incredibly nice way to put it. You aren't saying he is a crackpot, whack job, moron, etc.

1 point

i think it's reasonable in this case to call an atheist one who believes in facts and a theist one who believes.

it's easy to sway an atheist; provide them facts.

it's not so easy to sway a theist, and is perfectly understandable for one to say 'nothing' will sway my faith. im sure for them, proof exists within their faith. they already have proof...?

while i'm sure somehow providing some sort of proof against god(s) would dissuade many from religion, im sure many others would still stay to their faith, as they would just have two contradicting proofs, by which they could choose?

1 point

The truth is, we DO have a reason to believe. And that is the difference we see in our lives when we ask God for help with problems.

2 points

There is no more reason to believe Christianity than Islam, Hinduism or Sikhism etc. people of all those religions would claim to see stuff in their lives. You see what you want to see.

pirateelfdog(2655) Clarified
1 point

Ok, then what is your reason to believe? Clearly it must exist and be completely absolute because you are so devoted.

1 point

Facts would convince me. If you can provide me with HARD evidence of anything other than judaism/christianity, than i will see no reason to believe it. But until i see hard eveidence, creation and God makes the most sense.

GenericName(3430) Clarified
1 point

Out of curiosity, do you believe you have "HARD" evidence for your current beliefs?

Or do you just need said "HARD" evidence to change your beliefs?

1 point

For me, at least the existence of objective moral values and the existence of non physical things is evidence enough that we are not merely chemical accidents, but i would also need irrefutable evidence to change my belief system.

1 point

If there was evidence that directly contradicted Christianity, would that convince you at least of moving away from Christianity if not creationism?

namenotgary(74) Disputed
1 point

If there was irrefutable evidence that was directly contradicting my worldview, i would examine it and accept the truth, whatever it was.

1 point

Tangent.

The fact that people beleive things so unconditionally is very scary to me because to me, that is a sign of mental illness, or perhaps mental inhibition is a better term. Or simple-mindedness. If you believe something so wholly that no logic or reasoning will ever convince you otherwise, then it seems to me that you are being extremely close-minded, illogical, or just plain foolish. Because most people's religions come from their upbringing and not by their choice, the fact that people refuse to even look at reasons not to believe what they have been told to believe I think is very dangerous.

There are plenty of concepts that people believe wholly without logic or reasoning. Many of these concepts are generally not considered religious.

Plenty of people believe in the concept of luck (various forms). Even if they deny it, it is reflected in their actions.

Some believe in Karma (various forms, assumed for rest of concepts).

Some believe in fate.

Some believe in soulmates or movie love.

The list is quite extensive and obviously differs by culture.

I would not consider a lack of logic or reasoning to be a symptom of mental illness as that is shared by everyone.

1 point

The thing is, I was always skeptical about the fullness of Christianity, and in fact spent most of my life in Buddhism. My conversion to Christ was both intellectual AND spiritual. It was hard fought, and was a struggle for a good long time. But the fact remains that once I peeled away the superficial layers of the onion of Christianity which seem to be the fodder of most modern materialist, atheist, anti-theist debate, I keep finding an endless depth to Christianity, and a fullness of scope which I found lacking in all other paths I walked. I can safely say at this point that I will be spending the rest of my life peeling away more and more layers of this fascinating life and world view. I am never tired of learning more about my faith, and am never lacking in something else to learn. I am renewed each day in my love of Jesus and His Church. I can't think of any possible external information or even force which could make me change my mind at this point, nor can I find any compelling reason to even search for such a force. There is nothing more real that Jesus Christ, who IS truth itself. I am so grateful to have my faith. I pray that all doubters and cynics find equivalent joy in whatever it is that inspires them.