CreateDebate


Debate Info

253
170
Should STFU Have every right.
Debate Score:423
Arguments:160
Total Votes:557
More Stats

Argument Ratio

side graph
 
 Should STFU (70)
 
 Have every right. (89)

Debate Creator

ricedaragh(2500) pic



Christians should stop campaigning against abortion.

If God has planned the life of every living thing down to the very moment of their demise, should abortion not be part of this plan?

If God plans abortions then Christians that campaign against it are disobeying their God.

Do these Christians have the right to protest and still be called Christians?

Should STFU

Side Score: 253
VS.

Have every right.

Side Score: 170
6 points

I agree. They're not changing anybody's mind and I can speak for quite a few when I say that they're becoming nothing more than a minor irritant.

Side: Should STFU
4 points

"they're becoming nothing more than a minor irritant."

Too true.

Side: Should STFU
Billie(790) Disputed
1 point

Well if they're not changing anybody's mind, why should they stop? Campaigning and standing up for beliefs is all about enduring the critism and marching on until an ultimatum is reached that is in support of the camaigners. Until then, Christians will continute to campaign for what is right.

Side: Have every right.
TheHallow1(78) Disputed
5 points

"Until then, Christians will continute to campaign for what is right."

"Right" by their definition and that's their greatest problem.

Side: Should STFU
Genesis1vs1(31) Disputed
0 points

Don't Christians have every right to speak out against abortion. Those laws that allow abortion are similar to the laws that protect free speech. And those laws are based on "God" given rights.

Side: Have every right.
TheHallow1(78) Disputed
3 points

"And those laws are based on "God" given rights."

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Side: Should STFU
Flute222(11) Disputed
-2 points
TheHallow1(78) Disputed
7 points

"At least we are fighting for something we belivie in."

Couldn't care less and neither does anyone else.

"If the mother didn't want to have the child then she should have had safe sex instead of thinking something along the lines of'it will never happen to me'."

Too bad

"I have a 17 year old sister who is a junior in highschool who is now pregnant because she wasn't safe."

Tell her to abort it.

"She understands that this is part of the consequences of her choice."

So? She can still abort it.

"Abortion is moraly wrong and it makes me sick to think that so many of the American people are for killing an innocent child."

XD Whatever helps you sleep at night.

"Have you ever seen a video of an abortion?"

Yes. It was delicious.

"I have. It is sick, It made me physically ill."

Does it hurt to be that weak?

"The child was SCREAMING as it was sucked from its mother. Its limbs were TORN off its body for heavens sake!"

That makes it even better :)

"Are you ok with China killing girls because they cannot continue the family name then?"

It's their choice, not yours. You christians have a serious problem with minding your own business.

Side: Should STFU
2 points

Here's the thing, we are in a violent minded nation, and world right now,and change that and have the funds going into killing humans,and putting them in bondage and the space programs redirected to the humans that needed it abortions would at the same time will decrease as a cause, and effect. Humans would also be able to afford Upper cervical specific care as described on www.upcspine.com too, a good kind of Chiropractic. All of all ages would be wise to be evaluated by one. Then love all,and not be a drunkard being in your right mind,and have your soul saved for better things than what this planet has to offer circling a star that will one day die like us.

Side: Should STFU
2 points

No ones business but the mothers and her family. Pro-Choice

Side: Should STFU
2 points

They can moan and groan all they want but when you come right down to it, it's just some club that has some opinion about the real world and they want things done the way that their club would do it. How about that club just follows its own rules?

Side: Should STFU
1 point

Abortion isn't an easy choice to make to begin with, the campaigns hurt these women. And personally they're really annoying, because they over exaggerate everything about it. Abortion is a choice, and we have the right to have it.

Side: Should STFU
1 point

Numbers 5:11-5:31 describes a method of abortion used by priests in the Old World.

In the book, it is condoned by the word of God, that if a man is overcome with jealousy, even with no evidence whatsoever, and believes that his wife has slept with another man, that the priest should give her "bitter water" that causes miscarriage.

This is the end of the Christian anti-abortion argument, because also, it is spoken in the SAME BIBLE that you support, that if a man and woman fight, and a miscarriage is caused, then the husband of the woman may charge a fee to the other person for the miscarriage. The punishment IS NOT the same as the one for MURDER.

So there ya go, two separate parts of the bible saying "abortion is not murder" and "abortion is okay"... So think about that before you go out and hold up signs.

Side: Should STFU
1 point

May I ask about your 5:11-5:31,like which bible did you use and which Book in particular?

Side: Should STFU

More like, right-wing conservatives should stop campaigning..........................

Side: Should STFU
1 point

They have no right to try forcing others to live by rules given to them by their imaginary friend.

Side: Should STFU
1 point

The woman has the right to choose. The mother's rights are more important than the rights of the fetus.

Side: Should STFU
4 points

Then can't you also say: "If God has planned the life of every living thing down to the very moment of their demise, should Christians protesting against abortions not be part of this plan?"

If everything in the world is part of God's plan and is predetermined by God, the outcome would be:

(1) You shouldn't criticise anything, because to criticise anything would be to criticise God's plan... BUT

(2) You can't criticise anything except what God has planned for you to criticise, because God has planned out your every thought and act and it's impossible for you to go against this plan... THEREFORE

(3) There's no point worrying about what you should or shouldn't do. It's all out of your control anyway. You'll just keep plodding along to God's will obediently like a robot.

(By the way, Christians generally don't believe that God has the future entirely planned out, as that is thought to lead to the absurd scenario I just sketched. They tend to believe that humans have genuine free will.)

Side: Have every right.
ricedaragh(2500) Disputed
9 points

Then can't you also say: "If God has planned the life of every living thing down to the very moment of their demise, should Christians protesting against abortions not be part of this plan?"

Yes , you could and that is the point. I wished to expose a glaringly apparent contradiction and have some Christians explain it to me. I've been involved in debates with Christians and find myself frustrated at the lack of response when faced with the futility of free will in the face of an omniscient creator. I hoped to get an impassioned response to this.

Side: Should STFU
Uspwns101(444) Disputed
3 points

God does plan everything to happen a certain way. That way is shown in the life of Jesus in the bible. God's will rather than ours. But when we sin or break God's law we then go against and essentially change the plan. In essence there is a plan but God does not enforce his will until judgement day. Then wherever somebody went against God's law/plan they will be held accountable.

Side: Have every right.
Genesis1vs1(31) Disputed
1 point

find myself frustrated at the lack of response when faced with the futility of free will in the face of an omniscient creator. I hoped to get an impassioned response to this.

I have told you before omniscient doesn't mean intervention. We know God loves all of us, that does not mean that knowing we would do evil that he wouldn't create us. Your reasoning is ridiculous, you can't even begin to comprehend God's love for anyone. No one can fully comprehend God's reasons. You can keep repeating your arbitrary statements, but it won't change the logic of the argument. God loves us and always will.

Side: Have every right.
Flute222(11) Disputed
0 points

Ok, let me see if I can answer your quesiton. You want to know about free will,right? Well then think about this. Christ and our Heavenly father know each of us personally and know what choices we will make in this life. That does not mean that they 'force us' to make these decisions. The greatest gift from God is our agency. He will never take that away from us. No the evil in the world is not part of our God's plan, but it is part of the devils plan. Christ and God both know us and know your thoughts and our hearts. They would never 'make us' do anything. We are here to learn and if we were forced into thinking or doing a certian thing we would never learn.Things such as abortion, war, cruelty are all tools of the devil, we must NOT confuse these cruel things with our creator and our God. We are responsible for ourselves. We do have agency! We are not predestened to do anything, it is our choice what we do with our lives. Our God just knows before hand what those choices will be. We are not forced into anything.

Side: Have every right.
4 points

Christians should stop campaigning against abortion.

In my country (UK) we got something called "Freedom of Speech".

Side: Have every right.
3 points

Why did I get downvoted? In the UK we really got Freedom of Speech!

Side: Have every right.
honie(103) Disputed
1 point

You "have" freedom of speech. You don't got it. Maybe that's why people are laughing at you?

I was under the impression that people in the UK spoke proper English.

Side: Should STFU
0 points

LOL. Still laughing at that...

---------------------------------------

Side: Have every right.
-2 points
ricedaragh(2500) Disputed
3 points

In my country (UK) we got something called "Freedom of Speech".

As usual you are not getting the point. This is not about a Christians or anyone else's rights by law, it is about the apparent contradiction of Christian teaching.

Side: Should STFU
christjesus(318) Disputed
1 point

As usual you are not getting the point. This is not about a Christians or anyone else's rights by law, it is about the apparent contradiction of Christian teaching.

No, it's saying that Christians should stop campaigning against abortion.

Side: Have every right.
Genesis1vs1(31) Disputed
1 point

it is about the apparent contradiction of Christian teaching.

What contradiction do you have in mind here (specifically)? Give an example to us. Or is this more of your arbitration?

Side: Have every right.

i love it man in fact its hilarious and true people in america not only try to stop freedom of speach but also they often take advantage of our rights

Side: Have every right.
4 points

Your argument is completely and utterly fooked up, man. Christians believe that God gives and takes life, therefore any man who attempts to take life is going against an important commandment and also pressing a button that only God has the right to press. Abortion is not about God taking life, it is about man taking life, therefore Christians who campaign against such an act are in no way disobeying God, they are doing quite the opposite; "campaigning" for what is right - they are obeying God.

Side: Have every right.
ricedaragh(2500) Disputed
1 point

Your argument is completely and utterly fooked up, man.

No, it is not, the argument is valid and logical.

Christians believe that God gives and takes life, therefore any man who attempts to take life is going against an important commandment and also pressing a button that only God has the right to press

If this is so, then God is not all powerful, plus he is not all knowing, God when making a person supposedly plans out every minute detail of their lives, this would include the Doctor carrying out the procedure, the mother going through the procedure and the unborn that is to be terminated. If your argument is true this would mean that God did not know this would happen and is therefore blind to the future, this would then make all prophecies made from God via prophets just mere guesses, which it seems they are.

When a Christian is killed, by any means they rationalize it by stating that it was the persons time to go (God's plan), if a Christian avoids death then they rationalize it by saying that it was not yet their time. By Christian beliefs every life is sacred (and that includes developing embryos) and only God knows the time of your demise, if this is true then God wishes abortions to happen as to not would deviate from the plan of an omnipotent omniscient creator, this is impossible.

Christians who campaign against such an act are in no way disobeying God, they are doing quite the opposite; "campaigning" for what is right - they are obeying God.

This is true, in the sense that their church teaches blind faith and adherence, a blind faith that requires the suspension of logic, for if you follow the teachings to any form of logical conclusion then you would see that if God possesses the powers attributed to him via the ancient texts then the texts themselves are wrong as they teach of free will, and if the texts are wrong then why follow it, as to so or not is both in violation of Gods will if you wish to remain faithful.

Side: Should STFU
Billie(790) Disputed
3 points

"If this is so, then God is not all powerful, plus he is not all knowing, God when making a person supposedly plans out every minute detail of their lives, this would include the Doctor carrying out the procedure, the mother going through the procedure and the unborn that is to be terminated. If your argument is true this would mean that God did not know this would happen and is therefore blind to the future, this would then make all prophecies made from God via prophets just mere guesses, which it seems they are."

Wrong, so wrong. You jump to false conclusions, slow down. Just because women get abortions, how does that make God non-powerful? Ever heard of cause and effect? Sin will always exist, here, there, everywhere. When man does not consult God before commiting an act, why should God intervene? He has not been consulted or even considered in this man's decisions so why should God step in and clear up the mess behind him? He shouldn't. God allows abortions, God allows murder, God allows rape and violence, why should He stop all of this when He initially decided that His creation should have free will? It would defeat the point if He stepped in and wiped up our messes when we do not even ask Him for help.

"When a Christian is killed, by any means they rationalize it by stating that it was the persons time to go (God's plan), if a Christian avoids death then they rationalize it by saying that it was not yet their time"

Where do you get this? Don't make things up, if you have evidence, include it. When a Christian is killed, they are dead so they cannot rationalize anything because they are no longer alive. As for a Christian avoiding death, do you mean he/she looks twice before crossing the road and drives at 10mph? Explain yourself, this makes no sense.

"only God knows the time of your demise, if this is true then God wishes abortions to happen as to not would deviate from the plan of an omnipotent omniscient creator, this is impossible."

Again, your theory is absolute baulderdash. True, God does know the time of our deaths and where it will happen etc, but this does not mean that God wishes abortion? God does not want sin, God does not want hate, God does not want murder, God does not want abortion, but that does not mean that He stops it? If He stopped it, that would eliminate free will. There will be a time when He judges those who rejected Him and carried through with these acts, but until then, men will continue to destroy this world.

"This is true, in the sense that their church teaches blind faith and adherence, a blind faith that requires the suspension of logic, for if you follow the teachings to any form of logical conclusion then you would see that if God possesses the powers attributed to him via the ancient texts then the texts themselves are wrong as they teach of free will, and if the texts are wrong then why follow it, as to so or not is both in violation of Gods will if you wish to remain faithful."

Again, your conclusions are absolute tripe. All churches teach blind faith? What kind of nonsense is this?! Provide evidence for such an accusation. My faith is not blind, and it is my faith you are saying false things about, so it is my job to tell you to read the bible before saying such things about something you clearly know very little about.

"you would see that if God possesses the powers attributed to him via the ancient texts then the texts themselves are wrong as they teach of free will"

The bible speaks of God giving us free will, so why does that make it wrong? The bible is the word of God, we learn about God in those ancient texts, God gives us free will, if he didn't, how would you be sitting there typing out all your false theories?

First, back up everything you said providing statistics and evidence that are both factual and proven, then explain how the bible is a violation of God's will as you state in your last paragraph.

Side: Have every right.
3 points

They do, indeed, have the right. to say otherwise is totalitarian. Let them speak. And let us make up our minds whether or not to listen. Simple.

Side: Have every right.
ricedaragh(2500) Disputed
0 points

I thought that you would get the point of this debate. .

Side: Should STFU
3 points

Oops. It would appear that I read and responded very hastily. My apologies.

I'll be keeping my tag the same though. Hopefully this response will be more relevant to the debate at hand.

Your premise is perfectly logical. Additionally you could use the same reasoning to ask why murder is a sin or should be punishable, which would would cut right to the heart of the debate.

The flaw in your premise is that it doesn't account for free will, which Christians place emphasis on. They pretty much have to put free will in the equation for Christianity to make any sense at all.

Exactly what the relationship between God's plan and free will is varies from sect to sect and among individuals. But I do know of at least one explanation that I can accept:

Sin is not a part of God's plan. It is a result of our free will. What God planned can be made undone when we give in to our wicked sides. That is why sin is such a big deal. Murder is a sin, therefore it changes God's plans. Therefore "good Christians" should stand against it. And they believe that abortion is murder, so they stand against it for the same reason.

So, I guess what I'm saying is, I believe that some Christians would be able to adequately defend against your argument.

Whether or not these are the same Christians that actually are campaigning against abortion, I do not claim to know.

Man, playing Devil's advocate for Christians is exhausting.

Side: Have every right.
ricedaragh(2500) Disputed
1 point

Why did this get downvoted? .

Side: Have every right.
3 points

Then it is the same as saying people have no right to be alive.

Side: Have every right.
2 points

I think more non-Christians should be campaigning against abortion. Religion aside, it's morally stupid.

Side: Have every right.
2 points

Seeing as abortion is murder, I think anybody campaigning against murder is doing the right thing.

Side: Have every right.
ricedaragh(2500) Disputed
2 points

First of all abortion before a certain time cannot be classed as murder, secondly, you don't seem to be getting the point of this debate. I'm trying to highlight an important contradiction. The only way around here is to court controversy and abortion is a really hot topic especially where Christians are concerned.

Side: Should STFU
cuntyguy2(203) Disputed
1 point

Actually it CAN be classed as murder. It's not. But sometime in the future the definition could change.

I understand your point. It's just stupid. There are several standard replies a Christian can give

1. They're doing God's work and undoing the devil's work.

2. Their campaigns are also part of God's plan.

3. Campaigning against abortion (a form of murder) is a test of their faith.

You're not highlighting any contradictions. You're making a weak and pathetic assumption. That's why I didn't give a serious reply, because it was a waste of my time. Fucking cunt.

Side: Have every right.
2 points

I'm not Christian but the majority of my friends are and they are against abortion and I am too!

Side: Have every right.
2 points

How can anyone who is pro choice want to exclude someone of practicing their own beliefs. Abortion being right or wrong isnt the question, its if christians should stop campaigning against it. No one should stop campaigning against anything they think is unjust reguardless of how I feel about the issue.

Side: Have every right.
2 points

OK lets see, I had sex,without a condom.Then I end the life of what i would have reproduced,simply because i was irresponsible.That makes a lot of sense.

Kill a baby because you went sleeping around and didn't want it...HOW EVIL IS THAT?!

Side: Have every right.
2 points

That makes no sense whatsoever. According to the typical Christian beliefs, abortion is murder of a child. Would you say that since God has everything planned out, Christians shouldn't try to stop people from abusing their children? That if there's a country where people are being tortured to death by their government, Christians should sit back and be fine with it because obviously it's all in God's plan? According to your logic, that would have to be true, but I'm pretty sure you'd find very few people to agree with you on that one.

Side: Have every right.
2 points

ABORTION IS MURDERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Side: Have every right.
2 points

I am a Christian and while I have never (and would never) campaign against abortion; I (unlike many, both Christian and atheist alike) try my best not to tell others what they can and can't do.

I think both sides should stfu about it.

Side: Have every right.
2 points

And yeah... I hope people realize that being a Christian and following the Bible word for word are not the same thing, especially in certain Christian denominations.

Being a Christian as the name implies is about believing in Jesus Christ being the son of God and dying for out sins. Otherwise; there is not CHRIST in Christians. That would pretty much just make them theist of some other sort.

Side: Have every right.

And yeah... I hope people realize that being a Christian and following the Bible word for word are not the same thing, especially in certain Christian denominations.

This is something that perplexes me. Is the bible not the infallible word of God? Can pick'n'mix religion ever have a leg to stand on when it is obvious that they have man made rules?

Side: Have every right.
Animegirl300(27) Disputed
1 point

I am saying that there is a difference between reading the Bible and actually being a Christian:

Christians are SUPPOSED to read the Bible, and keep it: but reading the Bible and keeping it isn't what makes people a Christian.

It's the difference between studying the law and becoming a lawyer, or taking a science class and actually being a scientist.

That is what I'm saying.

But the main example I'm trying to put is how some people call themselves Christians because they read the Bible, but they aren't Christian because they don't believe in Christ.

Side: Have every right.
Animegirl300(27) Disputed
1 point

But I DO agree that pick-and-mix religions are wrong at the foundation...

If you're going to use the title of a religion you need to commit yourself FULLY to it; the good and the bad. Otherwise it shows that the person is two-faced, and weak. <__< I wonder what arguments I shall get for this one

Side: Have every right.

To get a feel for what I'm talking about read my arguments with Billie and Genesis1vs1, it think that maybe you'd be a decent rational debater that I could have a battle with on this subject as both of those descended into name-calling or similar childish defense.

Side: Have every right.

no the christians should not stop compaigning against abortion since it is unmoral in their eyes and since they have the freedom of speach but i do belive christian extremists should stop protesting violantly also as robert casey said in 1990 77 percent of people believed that abortion was murder

Side: Have every right.

This debate wasn't really about that. I said it up as a trap. Have another look at the debate description.

Side: Have every right.
1 point

First off it's spelt IMMORAL, not UNMORAL. Also I guarantee that the majority off those supposed 77% haven't researched abortion at all.

Side: Should STFU
garry77777(1794) Disputed
0 points

"no the christians should not stop compaigning against abortion since it is unmoral in their eyes "

I think amoral is better used in that sentence as the Christians really don't know the difference between right and wrong when it comes to this issue.

"since they have the freedom of speach "

They can keep blowing out hot air but there are fewer and fewer people listening thank god (pun intended).

Side: Should STFU
churchmouse(328) Disputed
0 points

So you as a nonChristian knows what Christians should believe and what we are all about? LMAO

You are the secular humanist...you are the moral relativist who does not believe there is right and wrong remember? You reject authority and find nothing wrong with killing if it suits your purpose. Abortion is fine to you throughout the nine months.....wow what a compassionate chap you are Gary.

You don't know squat about abortion. Nadda nothing.

Thank God.........well honey if what we believe is right...you will be doing more than blowing hot air. LOL Pun intended.

And you can think back on this conversation about how you mocked God and those that believed in Him. And when God looks at you Gary and says....Why didn't you stand up for the unborn...what will you say then? I would give anything to be a fly on the wall...but I won't care.

The fact is GAry......let me educate you here.

And gee why do you troll around the Christian threads.....if you can't stand what we are all about. I have noticed that.....but be the love in your secular heart eh?

Anyway....abortion is a tough issue because most people with a brain know what abortion does. If it did not kill a living human being......it would not be an issue and would not divide political parties. But it is killing an innocent livign life. The abortionists goal Gary is to kill during the medical procedure. His job is not done until.......the unborn is dead and all contents are gone and not left in the woman. The goal Gary is death to the unborn. This is contrary to all the scriptures in the bible. It is contrary to all those what really love God and stand on the Word. Those that CLAIM to be Christian and are pro-choice are really pro-abortion and will also have to answer to God.

For a believer in Christ standing up for the life in the womb is not blowing hot air. Only to a moron...who is so self centered that he can't see beyond his own ego would abortion be acceptable.

The question here was poorly written...but then if someone set it up this poorly I highly doubt they know much more about abortion than you do.

Side: Have every right.

Hmph. Unless you are saying them should stop campaigning ONLY because of their beliefs I would agree with you. But why should Christians be the only one to shut up? Not every christian is against abortion, and not every anti-abortionist/pro-lifer has their opinions on it based on their religion either.

I know I don't.

People have every right to form their opinions on something, just like others have the right to support something.

Side: Have every right.
2 points

This debate wasn't really about abortion directly, I was trying to debate some Christians about free will, but this was fruitless. So I set it up as a logical trap as abortion is a hot topic that get's people worked up.

I have no problem with peoples' right to protest and would never wish to deny such.

Side: Have every right.
1 point

In this fine country (GO USA!), people are allowed to voice their opinions regardless of what anyone thinks of them. Whether you like it or not, they have the right to speak out against it just like proponents of abortion have the right to speak for it.

Side: Have every right.
2 points

This is a copypasta from another dispute I've had on this topic so I'll just let you know the same as it is only fair.

"This debate wasn't really about abortion directly, I was trying to debate some Christians about free will, but this was fruitless. So I set it up as a logical trap as abortion is a hot topic that get's people worked up.

I have no problem with peoples' right to protest and would never wish to deny such."

Side: Have every right.
1 point

They definitely have every right; if a non-Christian is allowed to campaign for abortion / against abortion then a Christian should be allowed to do the same they shouldn't be discriminated for because of their religion.

Side: Have every right.
ricedaragh(2500) Clarified
1 point

This is a copypasta from another dispute I've had on this topic so I'll just let you know the same as it is only fair.

"This debate wasn't really about abortion directly, I was trying to debate some Christians about free will, but this was fruitless. So I set it up as a logical trap as abortion is a hot topic that get's people worked up.

I have no problem with peoples' right to protest and would never wish to deny such."

Side: Should STFU
Cuaroc(8826) Disputed
1 point

Didn't take you as a point whore.

Side: Should STFU

If a person feels that abortion is wrong, such a person has the right to voice his objection.

Side: Have every right.