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We Christians serve God because he is all mighty not because he is going to punish us if we don't, Christians have a personal relationship with God, you atheists can just go on with your lives thinking some day you will die and dissappear, but when you are burning in Hell you will regret it.
Just an observation God doesn't send people to hell because they are bad, He wants everyone to go to heaven but some people just won'the accept Him into their lives, God made us free to decide to either serve Him or not that is what makes us different from robots who just follow commands.
We Christians serve God because he is all mighty not because he is going to punish us if we don't
but when you are burning in Hell you will regret it.
This 2 statements are in direct conflict. You lie and say you don't need to fear punishment, but you admit that your only convincing argument is punishment.
Just an observation God doesn't send people to hell because they are bad
This is why Atheists exist. Believing in a God punishing people who aren't bad makes you insane.
God made us free to decide to either serve Him or not that is what makes us different from robots who just follow commands.
Wait, you think God made us free to not be robots, but only accepts the robots into heaven? Why would He do that?
We Christians do not have to fear hell because God loves those who serve him, and serving him isn't like being his slave it is simply loving and obeying him. God doesn't send people to hell because they are bad because he'll was made for Satan God's enemy he is the one who tempts people to sin, if you don't believe in God then you go to hell not because you are bad necessarily but because you refuse to believe in Him, and atheism was created by Satan he doesn't want anyone to love God but to go to hell with him.
We are free to do what we want, God wants us to love him, and if we love him we will not sin, but God doesn't force us to love him, loving and serving him is a personal choice.
We Christians do not have to fear hell because God loves those who serve him, and serving him isn't like being his slave it is simply loving and obeying him.
But if you don't obey him, you get sent to hell. So considering that, how does it differ from slavery?
God doesn't send people to hell because they are bad because he'll was made for Satan God's enemy he is the one who tempts people to sin, if you don't believe in God then you go to hell not because you are bad necessarily but because you refuse to believe in Him,
And you find that okay? You have just said that someone can be a good person, but be sent to be tortured for eternity simply for a lack of belief.
We are free to do what we want, God wants us to love him, and if we love him we will not sin, but God doesn't force us to love him, loving and serving him is a personal choice.
What good is the choice if one receives eternal torture for making the wrong choice? Is that truly a choice?
Believing in a God punishing people who aren't bad makes you insane...
First of all, this makes me think that you're claiming to be a good person. Like literally pure, innocent from all judgement. So are you telling me that you've never told a lie. Never cursed in your life. Never said something nasty about someone behind their back. Never thought evil thoughts of someone you didn't like... Hmmmm? I'm pretty sure that if you say you haven't done these things then you are a liar.
When Christians say the word sin, we aren't just talking about murderers, Adolf Hitler himself, rapists. We are talking about mean girls here, committing slander, slagging someone off, bullying, lying to an extent that you get someone else in trouble. We're talking about everyone and anyone. We are all sinners. Even if you claim not be believe in God. You are still a bad person. That's what sin is. Doing bad things that God doesn't want you to do.
Many atheists tend to ask this question to Christians. "If your God is so great, then why does he send good people to hell?"
The answer is simple. No one is good. And by the term 'good' I'm not talking about someone who gives to charity, etc. This isn't perfect in God's eyes. And that is how Christians are so awesome. None of us are good. I am no where near good enough to go to heaven. Not even close. In fact, personally I think that I deserve to go to hell because of what I've done. But the reason why Christians go to heaven, is because we come into terms that we aren't good enough for heaven. Many atheists think that by being a good person they will get to heaven. WRONG!
Christians get to heaven because we believe in Jesus Christ, who died for our sins. Without him then we'd all be going to hell. The thing is, it's not whether you're good enough. Its are you bad enough. And thats why us Christians defeat you by miles. We don't have to be perfect. We are not robots, we just try to follow the guideline of how to lead a good life. And we always fail. "For all have sinned and falls short of the glory of God."
God loves you unconditionally. The only difference between atheists and Christians is that atheists sin but don't repent. But Christians sin, probably the exact same sins that you commit. But we repent and that is why we get to heaven.
"He that falls into sin is a man; he that grieves at it, is a saint; he that boasteth of it; is a devil." Thomas Fuller
Believing in a God punishing people who aren't bad makes you insane...
First of all, this makes me think that you're claiming to be a good person. Like literally pure, innocent from all judgement.
That's a bit of a non sequitur. One can be a good person without being "pure, innocent from all judgement".
Many atheists tend to ask this question to Christians. "If your God is so great, then why does he send good people to hell?"
The answer is simple. No one is good. And by the term 'good' I'm not talking about someone who gives to charity, etc. This isn't perfect in God's eyes.
But remember, hell is eternal torture. How is simply being flawed sufficient reason for ETERNAL torture?
But the reason why Christians go to heaven, is because we come into terms that we aren't good enough for heaven. Many atheists think that by being a good person they will get to heaven. WRONG!
And that's why many atheists think the Christian god is horrifying. Sending people to be eternally tortured simply for not believing in the divinity of Jesus really is quite evil.
God loves you unconditionally.
That seems questionable. The idea of loving someone you send to hell for eternity itself is questionable, and the idea of doing so no matter how good of a life they led seems additionally questionable. Why would God require worship by threat of eternal torture if he actually loved people?
And that's why atheists think the Christian God is horrifying.
You obviously haven't read the Bible, or have you? You see God is way more loving, than he is horrifying. In fact, hell is mentioned more in the Bible than heaven. Why? Because God really doesn't want you to go there. And even now when you are asking all these questions... This is when searching for answers can help you find them.
The God I know is not horrifying at all. And trust me, sometimes I feel like there's no point in believing in God we all I'm gonna do is sin against Him again. But the divinity of Jesus is that this pure, innocent, Holy man. God himself, died on the cross for people like you and me. Sinners. A an guilty of nothing but healing people, forgiving people, loving people; was sentenced to death and held on the cross because of us. Our sin. That is the definition of his love. He doesn't want you to go to hell. You think too much of hell because its terrifying that people go there.
And yet if you talk of heaven then how can you not believe in God. Being simply flawed and not believing in God is all it takes to go to hell. And yet repenting of your sins and trusting in Jesus to forgive you is all it takes to get to heaven.
You fascinate me because out of all things you think of when it comes to God. Is that he holds the key to hell. Not that he is allowing you to live right now as long as you can because he wants you to be His. I don't get what is so hard to ask God for forgiveness. Are you convinced that you don't need forgiving...?
Please read the Bible. Either the Bible will keep you from sinning. Or your sin will keep you from the Bible. x
And that's why atheists think the Christian God is horrifying.
You obviously haven't read the Bible, or have you? You see God is way more loving, than he is horrifying.
I have read the Bible, and that's why I find him horrifying. If he was more loving, he wouldn't be writing people off for all of eternity for going down paths he already knows before they are even born (see: Calvinism and the theology of predestination).
In fact, hell is mentioned more in the Bible than heaven. Why? Because God really doesn't want you to go there. And even now when you are asking all these questions... This is when searching for answers can help you find them.
Except he created Lucifer and he created Hell, knowing everything that would happen before hand. You claim he doesn't want people to go there, but he created existence exactly as it is, knowing who would go to heaven and who would go to hell (again, "Alpha and Omega, beginning and the end").
The God I know is not horrifying at all.
It's the same god, you just for some reason don't find the majority of humanity being punished for all of eternity to be horrifying, for some reason.
And trust me, sometimes I feel like there's no point in believing in God we all I'm gonna do is sin against Him again. But the divinity of Jesus is that this pure, innocent, Holy man. God himself, died on the cross for people like you and me. Sinners. A an guilty of nothing but healing people, forgiving people, loving people; was sentenced to death and held on the cross because of us. Our sin. That is the definition of his love. He doesn't want you to go to hell. You think too much of hell because its terrifying that people go there.
First, the idea that this is necessary in the first place is strange. Since god knew everything that would happen, that means that when he created humanity he knew that the sacrifice of Jesus would be necessary. When he created Adam and Eve (a rather horrifying story itself), he knew exactly what would happen (original sin). Yet he left everything as is anyway. How is that benevolent?
And yet if you talk of heaven then how can you not believe in God.
I can recognize the concept of Heaven, but that does not itself lead me to believe in God. How could I believe in Heaven without believing in God?
Being simply flawed and not believing in God is all it takes to go to hell.
Hence why he is horrifying. He created us knowing we were flawed, and knowing most of us would not worship him. He created humanity knowing that most would be punished eternally. That isn't just horrifying, that is evil.
You fascinate me because out of all things you think of when it comes to God. Is that he holds the key to hell. Not that he is allowing you to live right now as long as you can because he wants you to be His.
But if he truly wanted that, why would he have created us the way he did? Why would he have created us in such a flawed way, knowing we would sin, knowing which of us would go to Hell?
I don't get what is so hard to ask God for forgiveness. Are you convinced that you don't need forgiving...?
I don't believe that if God exists, he would be this narcissistic. I don't think anyone needs "forgiveness" simply for not believing in him. If anyone did need forgiveness, it would be for legitimate wrongs they were guilty of in their lives; a concept I find just fine, within a theological sense. But that clearly isn't his main issue.
Please read the Bible. Either the Bible will keep you from sinning. Or your sin will keep you from the Bible. x
I have already read the Bible, a few times. I was raised Catholic (never stuck).
If you've read the Bible then you haven't read it right mate. The fact of freewill is the fundamental point of this argument. Just because God knows what you are going to do, doesn't mean that you are forced to do it. This is still your free will.
Secondly, God didnt create Lucifer. He created him good. It was Satan's free will to go bad. I understand the idea you have, the idea that proposes that if Satan was never created then things wouldn't be so bad. But this was God's plan. God's plan to have evil in the world, to prove to Satan that good will always overcome evil.
As for us, read Corinthians 10:13, where God explains that with every temptation you receive, you are given a way of escape.
The devil is in the details. You are looking to into it, ignoring the easy giveaway God has given you. The devil is in the idea that God wants you to go to hell, but the devil is a liar! No offence but his laughing at you right now. You're a very smart person, however remember that when you think to closely into something, it breeds doubt, which breeds disbelief, which gives birth to sin.
Ultimately, we cannot know for sure why God created Satan, knowing he would rebel. It’s tempting to assume that things would be “better” if Satan had never been created or to declare that God should have done differently. But such assumptions and declarations are unwise. In fact, to claim we know better than God how to run the universe is to fall into the devil’s own sin of promoting himself above the Most High (Isaiah 14:13–14).
Goodnight and Godless. You are extremely different from that Cartman. He is ignorant and abusive towards the opposite side.
If you've read the Bible then you haven't read it right mate. The fact of freewill is the fundamental point of this argument. Just because God knows what you are going to do, doesn't mean that you are forced to do it. This is still your free will.
That simply doesn't follow. If God created existence knowing everything that would happen, then he created existence in accordance with that plan. He created everything just the way it was leading to every single outcome that occurs. Because of that, free will is, in essence, an illusion (again, I recommend reading up on the writings of John Calvin).
Secondly, God didnt create Lucifer. He created him good.
Again, he created Lucifer (not Satan) knowing what Lucifer would do. He created Lucifer just as he was, and when he created him, he knew that he would become Satan. That means that he essentially created Satan (As per my bomb maker analogy).
I understand the idea you have, the idea that proposes that if Satan was never created then things wouldn't be so bad. But this was God's plan. God's plan to have evil in the world, to prove to Satan that good will always overcome evil.
Exactly! This is where God really becomes horrifying! He planned on creating Satan as he was so that he would go evil, and he knew that would mean most people would be eternally tortured.
The devil is in the details. You are looking to into it, ignoring the easy giveaway God has given you. The devil is in the idea that God wants you to go to hell, but the devil is a liar! No offence but his laughing at you right now. You're a very smart person, however remember that when you think to closely into something, it breeds doubt, which breeds disbelief, which gives birth to sin.
Sorry, but I find any belief that requires one to not think about it too much inherently dangerous and suspect. If a belief system can not hold up to scrutiny, I believe it is illegitimate.
Ultimately, we cannot know for sure why God created Satan, knowing he would rebel. It’s tempting to assume that things would be “better” if Satan had never been created or to declare that God should have done differently. But such assumptions and declarations are unwise. In fact, to claim we know better than God how to run the universe is to fall into the devil’s own sin of promoting himself above the Most High (Isaiah 14:13–14).
I don't claim to know better than God. I simply claim that Christian theology is horrifying as it requires certain facts, such as God's omniscience leading him to know what would happen before it did and simply letting it be so.
Goodnight and Godless. You are extremely different from that Cartman. He is ignorant and abusive towards the opposite side.
First of all, this makes me think that you're claiming to be a good person.
I am a good person. You thinking I am not without knowing me at all makes you a bad Christian.
Like literally pure, innocent from all judgement.
Nope.
When Christians say the word sin, we aren't just talking about murderers, Adolf Hitler himself, rapists. We are talking about mean girls here, committing slander, slagging someone off, bullying, lying to an extent that you get someone else in trouble.
Then you guys are even dumber than I make you out to be. You think people go to hell for being mean girls.
No one is good.
Your whole belief is completely stupid then. If you are too dumb to recognize who is good and who is bad, then you shouldn't be allowed to weigh in on morality.
And by the term 'good' I'm not talking about someone who gives to charity, etc.
Because you are stupid.
And that is how Christians are so awesome.
Hating everyone for absolutely no reason is not awesome.
None of us are good.
You aren't good or awesome.
I am no where near good enough to go to heaven.
That's too bad. Maybe you should become an Atheist then.
In fact, personally I think that I deserve to go to hell because of what I've done.
That is horrible. Making sure you deserve hell no matter what you have done in life is the opposite of awesome.
But the reason why Christians go to heaven, is because we come into terms that we aren't good enough for heaven.
And, God will probably laugh in your face.
Many atheists think that by being a good person they will get to heaven.
Right, we aren't insane.
The thing is, it's not whether you're good enough.
You know, the normal way a supreme being might act.
Its are you bad enough.
Very negative view of your God. I hope He isn't offended.
And thats why us Christians defeat you by miles.
You defeat us in corruptibility by miles.
we just try to follow the guideline of how to lead a good life.
Or not, since you don't need to.
God loves you unconditionally.
Unless you don't love Him first.
The only difference between atheists and Christians is that atheists sin but don't repent.
And the quantity of sins.
But Christians sin, probably the exact same sins that you commit.
Probably more varied and in greater numbers.
"He that falls into sin is a man; he that grieves at it, is a saint; he that boasteth of it; is a devil." Thomas Fuller
You are boasting about being able to commit all the sins that you want. Atheists grieve about their sins because they think they are bad. You shrug off your sins and forget about them.
I don't argue with people like you because you hate God so much that you will be abusive to the other side. And no, I wasn't boasting about my sins. Infact if anything, I don't shrug them off, I mourn about it and let God take away my burden of guilt.
I win just because of the way you argue, you have no real point other than one like "because you are stupid," or "Then you guys are even dumber then you make it out to be." ugh. God bless child. You really aren't heading the right way in terms of how you try and debate about a topic.
This is what you theists don't get. I don't hate God. I hate you. Stop calling yourself God.
You are 100% boasting about the ability to have your sins washed away simply by believing in Jesus by calling yourself awesome.
You really aren't heading the right way in terms of how you try and debate about a topic.
When you guys start listening to reasonable arguments I will start using reasonable arguments. You lost the debate because your only point is "this is what I believe because this is what I was taught and I have never thought for one second about the possibility that I am wrong".
This is what you don't get. I don't hate God or you. I am not calling myself God in no way possible. But yes I am boasting in Jesus Christ because he is my all sufficient saviour. It's amazing how i can have a great debate with an atheist and have no personal conflict at all. I guess it's the people that are the problem, not their belief.
You are talking with liars who hate God while they deny that they hate Him. They're haters, they hate you and only want to justify themselves. I gave up on them. They won't believe Hell is real until they find themselves unable to get out of it. I hope I'm wrong about that, but the fools repeatedly vow that the only way they will believe Hell is real is for them to find themselves burning in it with no way out. They hate God and they are getting what they deserve slowly but surely. It's sad, but nothing you can do when they won't listen.
Honestly, his first comment was somewhat justified. When non-theists criticize theists, and theists respond by saying "You hate god", it comes across as you assuming God's title for your own. One can not hate that which they do not believe in.
I only describe people I hate the way you describe me and God.
am not calling myself God in no way possible
False. You are in one way possible. When you say I hate God, but I clearly only hate you. You are calling yourself God by claiming the thing I hate (you) is God.
But yes I am boasting in Jesus Christ because he is my all sufficient saviour.
We are in agreement there.
It's amazing how i can have a great debate with an atheist and have no personal conflict at all.
Oh, so you are blaming me for this personal conflict we are having?
guess it's the people that are the problem, not their belief.
I never said; in no way that I was God. Your losing the battle by repeating things and then not making sense. I sound very much like a Christian.
Because even though you claim not to hate God; you deny him as Lord and Saviour, reject his word and salvation, as if you hate Him. You don't even believe he exists, but atheism is the belief that he is a myth, man made being that is not meaningful. How can you hate God when you don't even believe in Him?
Your poor reading comprehension is not my fault, so I shouldn't lose the debate because of it. I explained to exactly how you have claimed to be God. I don't hate God. I can't hate something I don't think exists. You have created a strawman argument.
Because even though you claim not to hate God; you deny him as Lord and Saviour, reject his word and salvation, as if you hate Him.
Can you name anything in your life that you hate enough to claim it wasn't your saviour? That isn't what hatred looks like. That is simply a decision making process.
You don't even believe he exists, but atheism is the belief that he is a myth, man made being that is not meaningful.
How can God be meaningful and not exist? There is no extra hatred there.
How can you hate God when you don't even believe in Him?
Do you not think through anything you say? You even acknowledged that I know that I don't hate God. You are the one who thinks you have to hate things that don't exist, not me.
They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. Ephesians 4:18
~ For you
"Jesus said to him, “Unless you see signs and wonders you will not believe.” John 4:48
~For you
Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 1 John 4:8
~ For you
I already said I don't hate you, but you hate me and you don't even know me. You hate all Christians because of their faith, their ability to believe something without being deterred.
You have hatred for people that think highly of God, just because you can't think highly of Him yourself. You harden your heart to Christians and tell them they a dumb. I never said you were dumb. You called us stupid. And no one called you stupid? Christians love everybody and anybody, you love; except those like me that believe in Christ... Okay then.
If you read the text clearly I said that no one is good enough to go to heaven. I wasn't saying that your not a good person. Because you might be a very nice person, that smiles all the time, is a gentleman etc. What I was trying to say was that Christians don't go to heaven because they are "good." But because we are bad and have asked Jesus to forgive us for our sins and take our place in judgement. We are all bad. Both of us. Because we sin everyday and sometimes by mistake. The fact of the matter is, when you ask God to forgive you, Jesus, the perfect sacrifice turns our unrighteousness into righteousness. It is not that Christians go to heaven because they are good people. But because they have Jeus. So when God judges us on the last day, he doesn't see our sin anymore, because Jesus has taken our place. I hope you will one day understand. As for the Christians that show hate towards others, then they are not Christians because God is love.
If you read the text clearly I said that no one is good enough to go to heaven.
Yeah, the guilty before proven innocent concept is something I have a problem with.
Because you might be a very nice person, that smiles all the time, is a gentleman etc.
But, that isn't what you think about when you see a person. You see a perfect smiling gentleman and say, "That guy must be lying about something in his off time." How is that awesome of you?
What I was trying to say was that Christians don't go to heaven because they are "good."
Right, because that would be the awesome way to let people in.
But because we are bad and have asked Jesus to forgive us for our sins and take our place in judgement.
I am not seeing how this is the awesome option.
As for the Christians that show hate towards others, then they are not Christians because God is love.
I don't see a lot of love with your position either.
Let me ask you something. If you for example, killed someone, and the cops came and we're going to arrest you and sentence you to death, but you killed that person and you were really sorry. Then out of nowhere you're best friend insisted he take the judgement for you, wouldn't you be thankful. He has saved your life. That is awesome no?
That is the awesome part of this. Christians don't face judgement if we have Jesus. God gave us a free gift, of Jesus Christ who takes our bad things away from us and pays the price. So in this instance, you wouldn't have to worry about the bad things you do, because you have Jesus to worry for you, he died on the cross for you. Because he knows that we are no where near perfect. That doesn't go to say that we can kill someone and not worry, seeing as that's what you think. When we repent God knows our heart and will know if we are just asking for forgiveness for the sake of not getting punished.
You don't have to love me. But in no way have I said that I hate you. And it is the fact that you hate me, that shows how you not having a faith makes you hostile to those that do have faith. Just because you don't believe in God doesn't give me the right to hate you. My best friend doesn't believe in God and yet we are able to sit and talk about God, to a point where she can take into consideration my beliefs and I hers. But you show hatred to someone that hasn't shown any hatred to you.
Let me ask you something. If you for example, killed someone, and the cops came and we're going to arrest you and sentence you to death, but you killed that person and you were really sorry. Then out of nowhere you're best friend insisted he take the judgement for you, wouldn't you be thankful. He has saved your life. That is awesome no?
No, that's horrifying. The person I killed deserves justice. I need to be punished.
So in this instance, you wouldn't have to worry about the bad things you do
That's not a good thing. You are protected, but the people you did something bad to are not in good shape.
That doesn't go to say that we can kill someone and not worry, seeing as that's what you think.
Except I don't think that. You are the only one who has even hinted at the possibility.
But in no way have I said that I hate you.
I interpret your hatred as hatred toward me. If that in no way means that you hate me, then everything you claimed I said I didn't really say either.
And it is the fact that you hate me, that shows how you not having a faith makes you hostile to those that do have faith.
I don't care that you have faith. I made no mention of your faith. I hate that you think everyone is bad. That's not awesome.
Just because you don't believe in God doesn't give me the right to hate you.
It doesn't sound like that in your posts.
My best friend doesn't believe in God and yet we are able to sit and talk about God, to a point where she can take into consideration my beliefs and I hers.
Do you make up her beliefs for her like you have been doing for me?
But you show hatred to someone that hasn't shown any hatred to you.
You have shown hatred toward me by assuming I am deserving of hell.
I don't get that.
You assume everyone is bad. How is my belief so strange?
I'm just going to say this once more. I didn't say you were bad as in your behaviour stinks or you really haven't got a decent personality. By bad, I mean imperfect. You think you are good. And that being good gets you to heaven. But to get to heaven you have to be perfect. So your good isn't good enough. That is why we have Jesus to be that perfectness for us. When I say we are all bad, I mean we are all imperfect and we sin and we do bad things.
So now that you know that when I say bad I mean imperfect and when I say good I mean perfect. Do you still consider yourself as good? If you're answer is yes then in this case you are claiming to be perfect and that is what I am trying to tell you. Nobody is perfect. Nobody is good enough to get to heaven. Jesus didn't come for the righteous, but for the sinners. If nobody sinned then heaven would be empty. Heaven is full of sinners that have been made clean because Jesus Christ sacrifice his life for our sake.
Of course I do. Just because you have some wacky view of good and bad doesn't mean I am going to adopt it. Just like you aren't going to lose your faith because I don't believe in God.
If you're answer is yes then in this case you are claiming to be perfect and that is what I am trying to tell you.
It is actually hypocritical to attack me for hating you for your faith (which I didn't even do) and then saying that everyone has to follow your view of good and bad.
I find nothing awesome about not knowing anything about the person and determining they are good or bad.
I find it quite wacky that you consider yourself as perfect, claiming that you have no flaws...
Ever heard of the term "nobody's perfect?" I guess that doesn't refer to you then does it?
I know what good and bad means, but in this case I changed it so you would understand. Perfect and imperfect. And no offence you said and I quote "I don't hate your God, I hate you."
And lastly I don't know anything about you except that you are human, you have flaws, which means your not perfect.
find it quite wacky that you consider yourself as perfect, claiming that you have no flaws...
I never claimed that. I don't follow your incorrect view of good.
Ever heard of the term "nobody's perfect?" I guess that doesn't refer to you then does it?
I never said I was perfect. The fact that you think the word good means the word perfect makes it hard to talk to you. How do I know there aren't other words that you are turning into words that already exist?
know what good and bad means,
You don't. You think good means perfect and bad means default.
but in this case I changed it so you would understand.
And I made it clear to you that I don't care what words you use. I will continue to use the correct version of the word good.
And no offence you said and I quote "I don't hate your God, I hate you."
Why would I be offended?
And lastly I don't know anything about you except that you are human, you have flaws, which means your not perfect.
And saying that I am not good because I am not perfect is not awesome.
Well lets see...... who is more awesome.... hmmmm..... well if I had to go by the simple evidence, the answer would obviously be Christians.
I don't think it is awesome to support killing even late term unborn Babies for any reason. There are so few truly pro life Atheists. That issue alone shows the inhumanity of man without God. 177 out of 182 Democrats now voted to allow a Baby born live after a bothced late term abortion to die. Is that awesome?
True Christians are pro life because God said you will know a Christian by their love. Is it loving to allow a baby born alive to die? What? You say you don't support that law allowing Babies born alive to die? You do suppport that law every time you vote for Democrats or other Left wing parties. You can deny what you support with your vote till the day you die, it matters not. The truth is obvious.
So bottom line is killing Babies is not awesome. It's downright depraved, so for me the answer is obvious.
I would never believe it unless the person himself told me he had not voted for a Democrat these past 30 years. The Democrat party has been the party of abortion these past decades and if a person voted for them, I believe they are phonies when it comes to being pro life. There is no other issue more important than innocent life being taken. You can not use the excuse you are not a one issue voter when we have issues such as these.
You would never vote for a KKK member no matter how much you agreed with his other policies. Racism would supercede the other issues. There are certain things in life we MUST take a stand.
I used thirty yers as a base time when Democrats showed themelves to be total phonies. Democrats were pro life in the 70's when the poll numbers said to be pro life. s our culture changed to one of pro abortion, Deocrts instantly lost all concern for that Baby's right to life and went fter the vote. You wil notice that the GOP styed true to their core values of the right to life for all innocent people.
So thirty years is about the time frame when anyne who was truly pro life would stop voting for Democrats.
Changes in political party ideas happen all the time. The Democratic Party and the Republican Party are nothing like they were when they were first formed. So why are those changes "phony"?
What about their stand on abortion makes Christians "awesome"?? There are many problems in this world bigger than abortion, and Christian belief is a stimulant for many of them.
A "botched, late term abortion, likely leaves a fetus that will live a useless life of pain and misery. Yes, as an Atheist I would say, we don't like to see animals suffer and I feel the same way about humans. I wouldn't want to! But then, I guess I'm not as awesome as a cruel Christian.
I don't condone "frivolous abortions". I DO condone those that prevent pain and suffering of the fetus, the parents, and their families.
Why do Christians love to send jobs and money to China, where abortions are caused by the governments restriction on family size? The huge majority of capitalists call themselves Christians, but where money is concerned, being supportive friends with "the devil" is fine. In America though, if you support ANY abortion, Christians likely wont do business with you. Hypocrites, all!
You are the most sickening hypocrite alive. You condone killing Babies born alive from botched abortions becuse you some how KNOW that the child will have a hard life? You are supporting killing a Baby born alive when you have no clue the circumstances of that child's parents and could NEVER know what quality of life it would have.
You are a total laughable waste of humanity with no regards to the value of an innocent life.
Why not join a terorist group. You possess similar values when it comes to the right to life of the innocent.
OKAY, FromWithin! I am thankful for your last line. Now, here is mine:
You say: "....you have no clue to the circumstances of that child's parents." Actually I do. My first wife had an abortion. Her doctor, who, by the way, was the doctor who brought her into this world, said she would (likely) not live through the term. We had two daughters, 7 and 9. He gave her an "unauthorized abortion" to save HER life. My daughters had their mother for another two years, for which I (and they) are thankful.
It is YOU that has no "clue" to the circumstances of the parents! I do not condone frivolous abortion, but I know that it MUST be available for the "circumstances of the parents." Nothing "laughable" about you, you are just a "waste of humanity" and a terrorist to parents with "circumstances." You have " no regard" for the feelings of REAL families. Hopefully, WE are done "wasting OUR time".
That issue alone shows the inhumanity of man without God. 177 out of 182 Democrats now voted to allow a Baby born live after a bothced late term abortion to die. Is that awesome?
Most Democrats are Christian. It is damn near impossible to get elected as an Atheist. The people who voted against that bill are Christian Democrats. Apparently you ban me because you are unable to deal with reality.
How many times have I shown you that someone simply calling themselves Christian MEANS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING? Yet here you are STILL telling us how some of those Democrats are Christians who support allowing Babies born alive to die.
Hitler called himself a Christian. The KKK call temselves Christians. WHO CARES what evil people say? The Bibe says we will know a Christian by their love.
The Democrats who support this inhumanity are not Christian in any sense of the word.
This is wy I ban you. You keep spewing the same mindless rhetoric to try and disprove arguments.
How many times have I shown you that someone simply calling themselves Christian MEANS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING?
How many times do I have to tell you that is an incredibly well known fallacy? Even if they aren't Christians in your eyes you can't call them Atheists because they do believe in a God.
Yet here you are STILL telling us how some of those Democrats are Christians who support allowing Babies born alive to die.
That's because you can't just kick out the people in your group that you don't like. They believe in Jesus and according to your religion that is the only requirement. You guys are very boastful about not having to be good, just having to follow Jesus.
Hitler called himself a Christian. The KKK call temselves Christians. WHO CARES what evil people say?
Sorry pal those are the rules. Take it up with Jesus.
The Bibe says we will know a Christian by their love.
Yeah, their love for Jesus, not for anyone else.
The Democrats who support this inhumanity are not Christian in any sense of the word.
Except in one sense, they are. Believing Jesus exists.
This is wy I ban you.
You ban me because you are in love with your fallacies?
You keep spewing the same mindless rhetoric to try and disprove arguments.
It is not mindless rhetoric, they are not atheists in any sense of the word. They believe in God. You calling them atheist because they don't do what you want is mindless rhetoric.
What don't you get? The Bible speaks to false Christains. It speaks to people who call themseves Christians but it says "God never new them".
Yes, Christians do believe that faith in Christ is the only way to heaven, and they believe what the Bible says when it says you can not work your way to heaven by supposedly being good. It says in the Bible that Man's so called goodness is like rags in God's eyes.
You can not take one verse from the Bible and extract the true meaning. You must take the entirety of the New Testament to understand the meaning of many verses. The Bibles says you will know a Christian by their love, so obviously someone simply calling themselves a Christian means nothing. Yes, maybe they believe they are Christians, but their actions prove otherwise.
Do I know the soul of a man? No, I agree with you that we do not know what a person truly believes when his actions go contrary to his professed faith. We are not to call John Doe a sinner and going to hell. God will be his Judge. Is he a liar such as KKK members who profess Christ's love? I don't know, and neither do you.
What I am doing is speaking out on behalf of innocent life that can not speak for itself. I am holding those who support it accountable for their actions. I'm going by words from the Bible that says you will know a Christian by their love. Is abortion something a loving Christian would support when God says he knows us in the womb? Mother Mary could have aborted Jesus under the Democrat's support.
This is the reason I refute Atheists who say man can be moral and good without God. Abortion is one issue along with others, that totally disproves that fallacy.
Yes, all people sin no matter if they are Christians or not, but the difference is that Christians do try to live a moral life without sin. If they do fall into sin, they do not declare their sin as ok. A Christian woud never declare that killing the unborn Baby, that God says he already knows in the womb, as being ok. He would not support such a practice.
If a Christian followed his own selfish desires, and decided to have an abortion, knowing it to be a sin, and I'm not saying that could not happen, they would be living in severe guilt and would be asking for forgiveness for their admitted sin, and vowing never to support it or do it again. I believe God could forgive any person for most any sin if they are truly repentent.
So I once again explain what most Christians believe and as always you will undoubtedly twist it a week from now.
I understand what you are saying. I did not call Democrats Atheists. I said they are mostly radical pro aborton. I understand that many of them call themselves Christians which means absolutely nothing to me. I repeat, you will know a Christian by their love, not their political correctness.
By calling Democrats anti-Christian, you have said they are not Christian. By saying they have a radical secular agenda, you have called them atheists.
There is no double standard. Of course there are Muslims such as terrorists who do evil things while calling themselves Muslims. This is no different than Democrats calling themsleves Christians while supporting the deaths of unborn Babies that God says he knows in the womb.
There is no double standard. Of course there are Muslims such as terrorists who do evil things while calling themselves Muslims.
There is the double standard. If they are Christian, they are terrorists who simply call themselves Christian. If they are Muslim, they are Muslims who are doing evil things, in your eyes.
Cartman, you spit out random pieces of shit, you say those were Christians? Shut up, and just read other peoples lines, if you go on yours and my argument you can see you say random opinions!
Wikipedia has been found to be a more reliable source than the encyclopedia Britannica. So, objecting to Wikipedia actually makes you even more foolish than you already are.
Debating doesn't mean convincing the other person they are wrong. My debating is just fine. Your complete denial of facts doesn't make me a bad debater.
I don't define Atheism as any particular group of like minded people. I call it people who do not believe in God. They could believe differently on any number of issues, which Im sure is your point.
My point of abortion speaks to how far mankind's sense of right & wrong, or moral values, can fall without faith in a higher power. A higher power helping keep their feet planted firmly on a moral foundation.
Those on the Left like calling our Constitution a living document, and thereby allowing them to change it's intent to facilitate this new age Politically correct culture.
This is what man does and is why those on the Left have such disdain for Christianity. Christianity is at odds with the PC transformed America they want.
So to respond to your remarks, let me make it clear that I agree there is no pro abortion plank that goes with being an Atheist. I never said there was one. What I am saying is that man kind's sense of moral values(with no faith in a higher power) will drift and change with the wind of time. I'm saying man is basically a selfish being and will devolve(is that a word?) to a if it feels good do it philosophy on life.
Do you honestly think man kind would lift up moral values that tells him not to sleep around, not to have one night hook ups, not to have an abortion after that one night creates your child, not to walk away from your marriage no matter the harm to your children, etc.etc. etc.
No, man will not mention those traditional values once lifted up by our majority Christian nation and Christian heritage. Actually man will attack those values as we see on our media and on this debate site.
So this is why I say finding a true prolife Atheist who refuses to vote for Democrats because of their pro aborton stance, is one in a million. Abortion is an easy out for those wanting to live the if it feels good , do it mentality.
i believe neither is more awesome. god is the awesome one i believe we are all somewhat lost.. and some are more lost than others. i hate when people debate in hate. we should debate in the best manner. its ok to agree to disagree. we shouldnt slander others belief. i believe in truth and truth is in the supreme being (God) not science because without him there would be no science. our ancestors for years believed in god. even if it was the wrong god. they believed in a higher authority. we just got here yesterday compared to our ancestors. and we believe in science the essence of material and molecules or we just people living to die smh. i cant remember a tribe who believe in nothing or just science who was giving to us by the creator. so i slander nobody religion. peace to all the prophets and gods chosen including prophet muhhamed and jesus. remember gods religion is to be obedient
This is a question that sickens me because it is not about who's awesome and who's not. Jesus is not a religion. We make it a religion but true fully, it is about if you accept your sin and then repent and confess of your sins.
I bet my vote over here on this side of the Debate is causing some of you to do a massive double-take, eh?
I mean, here I am: undeniably one of the staunchest and most outspoken Atheists here on CD, and I go ahead and do a seemingly 180 degree turnaround and say those Christians, whom I regularly an with great relish argue with and even scorn are MORE awesome than atheists?
Wow. What happened SlapShot? Get hit in the head with a hockey puck today?
LOL.
No.
Here's my reasons: The vast majority of my entertainment and joy on this forum comes from debating and arguing Theology and religion. Most of this discourse is done with Christians. (Gee, I really do wish we had more Muslims, or Eastern Orthodox guys. But, whatever.)
And though I do not agree with most of their views, I simply find Christians--especially the fundamentalist ilk--more interesting. I have to admit I sometimes even envy their zeal. Their faith. No matter how deluded I sometimes believe it to be. Or how misplaced.
Sorry guys: most of your atheists bore me to tears. It would be different if you posed some good theological questions for the Christians like I try to do, or you used science do disprove many of their claims, again. like I try to do. But moist of your atheists just bash. And do not offer links (again, as I....) LOL
So, un-supported bashing is boring. I would much rather get things stirred up with some spirited debates with the True Believers. I owuld rather be on a forum with 10 SaintNow's than 100 Cartmans or Intig8ors.
What don't you get? The Bible speaks to false Christains. It speaks to people who call themseves Christians but it says "God never new them".
Yes, Christians do believe that faith in Christ is the only way to heaven, and they believe what the Bible says when it says you can not work your way to heaven by supposedly being good. It says in the Bible that Man's so called goodness is like rags in God's eyes.
You can not take one verse from the Bible and extract the true meaning. You must take the entirety of the New Testament to understand the meaning of many verses. The Bibles says you will know a Christian by their love, so obviously someone simply calling themselves a Christian means nothing. Yes, maybe they believe they are Christians, but their actions prove otherwise.
Do I know the soul of a man? No, I agree with you that we do not know what a person truly believes when his actions go contrary to his professed faith. We are not to call John Doe a sinner and going to hell. God will be his Judge. Is he a liar such as KKK members who profess Christ's love? I don't know, and neither do you.
What I am doing is speaking out on behalf of innocent life that can not speak for itself. I am holding those who support it accountable for their actions. I'm going by words from the Bible that says you will know a Christian by their love. Is abortion something a loving Christian would support when God says he knows us in the womb? Mother Mary could have aborted Jesus under the Democrat's support.
This is the reason I refute Atheists who say man can be moral and good without God. Abortion is one issue along with others, that totally disproves that fallacy.
Yes, all people sin no matter if they are Christians or not, but the difference is that Christians do try to live a moral life without sin. If they do fall into sin, they do not declare their sin as ok. A Christian woud never declare that killing the unborn Baby, that God says he already knows in the womb, as being ok. He would not support such a practice.
If a Christian followed his own selfish desires, and decided to have an abortion, knowing it to be a sin, and I'm not saying that could not happen, they would be living in severe guilt and would be asking for forgiveness for their admitted sin, and vowing never to support it or do it again. I believe God could forgive any person for most any sin if they are truly repentent.
So I once again explain what most Christians believe and as always you will undoubtedly twist it a week from now.
This is the reason I refute Atheists who say man can be moral and good without God. Abortion is one issue along with others, that totally disproves that fallacy.
Except that is utter nonsense. There are people who believe in God (Not calling them Christian) who support abortion, and no aspect of atheism inherently supports abortion.
I don't define Atheism as any particular group of like minded people. I call it people who simply do not believe in God. They could believe differently on any number of issues, which Im sure is your point.
My point of abortion speaks to how far mankind's sense of right & wrong, or moral values, can fall without faith in a higher power. A higher power helping keep their feet planted firmly on a moral foundation.
Those on the Left like calling our Constitution a living document, and thereby allowing them to change it's intent to facilitate this new age Politically correct culture.
This is what man does and is why those on the Left have such disdain for Christianity. Christianity is at odds with the PC transformed America they want.
So to respond to your remarks, let me make it clear that I agree there is no pro abortion plank that goes with being an Atheist. I never said there was one. What I am saying is that man kind's sense of moral values(with no faith in a higher power) will drift and change with the wind of time. I'm saying man is basically a selfish being and will devolve(is that a word?) to a if it feels good do it philosophy on life.
Do you honestly think man kind would lift up moral values that tells him not to sleep around, not to have one night hook ups, not to have an abortion after that one night creates your child, not to walk away from your marriage no matter the harm to your children, etc.etc. etc.
No, man will not mention those traditional values once lifted up by our majority Christian nation and Christian heritage. Actually man will attack those values as we see on our media and on this debate site.
So this is why I say finding a true prolife Atheist who refuses to vote for Democrats because of their pro aborton stance, is one in a million. Abortion is an easy out for those wanting to live the if it feels good , do it lifestyle.
I don't define Atheism as any particular group of like minded people. I call it people who simply do not believe in God. They could believe differently on any number of issues, which Im sure is your point.
My point of abortion speaks to how far mankind's sense of right & wrong, or moral values, can fall without faith in a higher power. A higher power helping keep their feet planted firmly on a moral foundation.
But the existence of millions who believe in a God but also find abortion moral undermines the legitimacy of this claim. Simply be the sheer number of deists, there are more people who believe in God and accept abortion than there are people who don't believe in god and accept abortion.
Those on the Left like calling our Constitution a living document, and thereby allowing them to change it's intent to facilitate this new age Politically correct culture.
It is objectively a living document, hence the amendments.
This is what man does and is why those on the Left have such disdain for Christianity. Christianity is at odds with the PC transformed America they want.
Not only does the left not have a uniform ideology or goal for America, but the overwhelming majority of those on the Left are Christian. I know you think they are phony Christians, but considering the fact that the term "Christian" means believing in the divinity of Christ, that really falls into the "No True Scotsman" category.
So to respond to your remarks, let me make it clear that I agree there is no pro abortion plank that goes with being an Atheist. I never said there was one. What I am saying is that man kind's sense of moral values(with no faith in a higher power) will drift and change with the wind of time.
That is the case for religion and theistic objective morality as well. Even the Christian ethic has changed dramatically since its inception. So why are you insinuating that is unique to secular morality?
Do you honestly think man kind would lift up moral values that tells him not to sleep around, not to have one night hook ups, not to have an abortion after that one night creates your child, not to walk away from your marriage no matter the harm to your children, etc.etc. etc.
As someone who is not a theist and spends much of my time around others who are atheists (note the distinction), yes. There are some people will will partake in that sort of behavior, and those people are by no means mostly atheists. The concept of religious ethics does not change that at all, despite the idealistic concept that it should.
No, man will not mention those traditional values once lifted up by our majority Christian nation and Christian heritage.
Except those are not "traditional values" (at least in the form you are presenting them), and they aren't disappearing within the secular community either.
Actually man will attack those values as we see on our media and on this debate site.
I challenge you to show people attacking those values as opposed to attacking how you present arguments you make pertaining to those values.
So this is why I say finding a true prolife Atheist who refuses to vote for Democrats because of their pro aborton stance, is one in a million. Abortion is an easy out for those wanting to live the if it feels good , do it lifestyle.
The majority of the time, that is true. Hence why we need to further improve methods of preventing people from finding them necessary in the first place. Improvements in sexual education and contraception have already led to a marked decrease in abortion across the country. Further improvements would only improve that.
Look at your last sentence and use that same logic when it comes to people killing each other. Do you want more education to teach people how to control their anger, and thereby reduce murders? We should make it legal to choose to kill each other but continue to educate and reduce the incedences of murder right? Nah, you enjoy your right to life too much for that.
Can you even grasp your total lack of humanity when it comes to caring for that unborn life.
Christians have not twisted or changed what their Bible says since our nation's inception. Some men have tried to do so (liberals being one group), not true Christians who do not want to change the Bible to fit the times.
We have new age Christian churches who have totally twisted the Bible to make it ok to have Gay pastors, feminists supporting abortion,etc. They are false Churches and I could care less how many people call themselves Christians when they deny it's words.
This debate is gong right back to the usual deny deny deny. So what is your alias names on this site? You sound exactly like the ones I end up banning.
why would Atheist be cool??like where is the hope in it??? because who wants to think "you just get this one life, live it, because when you're dead, YOU'RE DEAD!"
have you ever seen someone do something horrible and thought "I Just Want this guy to get what he deserves!", and that guy doesn't get caught, then what?? He didn't get what he deserved, but for Christians, if that guy didn't repent during his life, he go to hell, and pay for what he did!! or when Christ comes back, and judgement comes for everyone, that guy will be judged, and every sin he committed would be brought into the open, and just Imagine the embarrassment and guilt he will suffer, that would be ultimately satisfying!!
That is not how I think. I naturally am against killing, it just happily coincides with what is also taught in my church. It is like if your doctor tells you to not jump in front of a moving car, I was never planning on it, but thanks anyway for reaffirming what I already thought.
You're wrong in what you say here. You're saying this as if all Christians are basically robots that do what the Bible says to do and don't do what the Bible says you shouldn't do.
You've forgotten the fact that most of us Christians just don't murder people because it is morally wrong to take another human's life. Ugh! When I was about 7 years old I wasn't a Christian; and yet I knew that stealing was wrong because my mum always said so... So no you're point is not completely valid. Christians don't kill because we have common sense and knowledge to know good from bad, just like atheists.
Belief in the bible inherently leads you to operate on a reward-punishment system. You need to do good to get into heaven, and if you don't, you go to hell. That, in itself, is a huge problem, as it means a Christian's morality doesn't have to be defined by a sense of right and wrong, only by following a set of rules to get prizes or avoid punishment.
A Christian who doesn't kill because they think it's the right thing to do and a Christian who doesn't kill because they want eternal bliss are treated the same in the faith, and that's a problem.
And if you argue that it's inherently wrong to murder, steal, etc... well, why do you need Christianity at all?
i think you have the outlook of the bible wrong. bible is simply a guide line everybody knows you dont suppose to kill, murder, steal,etc. but doing those things does not just make you a christian or religous. the bible is for you to understand the reason why you are hear. the reason of life and whats expected of you for eternity. it is not a democracy its his kingdom. what he say goes.. the same system you talking about is the same system. that the average parent uses on there kids. religous or not. you do good you get rewarded you do bad theres punishment. our father teaches us just as a parent teaches there child but on a higher scale
i think you have the outlook of the bible wrong. bible is simply a guide line everybody knows you dont suppose to kill, murder, steal,etc. but doing those things does not just make you a christian or religous. the bible is for you to understand the reason why you are hear. the reason of life and whats expected of you for eternity.
Can you explain why the Bible is valid, then? If that's it's purpose, how do you know it is any more correct than any of the other thousands of holy books out there that claim to serve the same purpose?
it is not a democracy its his kingdom. what he say goes..
That doesn't sound very loving to me. Just saying.
that the average parent uses on there kids. religous or not. you do good you get rewarded you do bad theres punishment. our father teaches us just as a parent teaches there child but on a higher scale
Right... and that's bad. If you only ever do anything on a reward/punishment system, then you aren't doing it for any moral reasons. If that's the case, then there is nothing wrong with killing anyone, only that you won't get rewarded if you do.
And the extent of the rewards and punishments simply don't match up to the actions. Seriously. How could an infinite punishment or an infinite reward even be just for anything you do in your life or your death?
At the end of the day, I'm not trying to turn you into something you're obviously not. This is a debate and it's meant to help you guys understand the Christian point of view. You guys have showed me yours, some with diligence and others with hate cough Cartman.
But I'd rather live like there is a God (which there is) then die to find that there wasn't. rather than living as if there wasn't a God. And die to find out there is. But whoever you are, my God died for you, not so that you would fear Hell. But so that you could look forward to heaven.
You miss the point that my God is the God of love. And you may find that hard to believe, and that's fine. I am not judging you. That's not my job. For how can I judge you for the sins you make when I do the exact same. As for Cartman, you need to love your enemies. Because by spreading hate, you aren't any better than the Christians that have shown you hate. As for everyone else, my love is deeply shown for you. And if you live a good life, full of love and compassion, then God is already in you, because hate is of the devil. So yeah, lol
At the end of the day, I'm not trying to turn you into something you're obviously not.
Well, that's not necessarily the goal for either of us. We should try and discuss the points, so we can both gain a deeper understanding, even if our understandings are going to end up being different.
But I'd rather live like there is a God (which there is) then die to find that there wasn't. rather than living as if there wasn't a God.
This sounds a little bit like Pascal's Wager. So I'll give the standard response: How did you pick a God, then? There are an almost unlimited number.
Also, I don't see how this makes sense in regards to belief. Even if I thought it would be better to believe in God, I couldn't use that as a way to convince myself that God existed.
You miss the point that my God is the God of love. And you may find that hard to believe, and that's fine. I am not judging you.
So lets talk about that! This is a topic I find very interesting.
Okay, so what makes you say God is "the God of love."? Other than the Bible claiming he is a loving God, how do you know?
How could "the God of love" ever give anyone infinite punishment for a finite crime?
How could "the God of love" send people to Hell for committing crimes that they didn't know were wrong to do?
How could "the God of love" expect so many people to believe in Him on such faulty evidence?
For how can I judge you for the sins you make when I do the exact same. As for Cartman, you need to love your enemies. Because by spreading hate, you aren't any better than the Christians that have shown you hate. As for everyone else, my love is deeply shown for you. And if you live a good life, full of love and compassion, then God is already in you, because hate is of the devil. So yeah, lol
And that's truly a lovely sentiment, and one that definitely appears morally good. Know that I am countering you only because you have chosen to come to a debate site and I truly think your stance is based on faulty facts. I hope you're willing to think about this stuff critically so you can see that you don't need religion in order to find that love.
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Also... didn't God create the devil? And aren't all of our feelings in His 'plan'? So he essentially led those who are filled with hate to that point.
Firstly may I just clarify that you are like my best friend, she doesn't believe in God however talks as if she was willing to understand; for this I thank you for not being so rude in the way you speak.
First of all, God is an omnipresent God which means he sees everything and knows everything. Therefore there is a difference in the way he judges people that have never heard of Him before, than the people that have heard of Him and choose to reject him because they don't the whole view.
Most people choose to reject God: one because of difficult times in their life where they feel that God doesn't help, and secondly because they are too indulged in their sin that it suddenly doesn't feel wrong to them anymore.
My God is a loving God. Although he holds the key of hell, it is by his love that he gives us a way of avoiding the punishment. Our God is a jealous God because he doesn't like it when we go the other way and reject him, however he leaves us be because we have free will. For the query of "if he is a loving God, then why does he send people to hell for sins that they didn't even know we're wrong," that is because for many people, they do know that the sin is wrong. And it is basically like I said before. All mankind know what is right from wrong, but nowadays it is hard to take that into account when our world promotes such bad stuff. For example, getting drunk do the point of losing control of your actions, taking drugs, these things are bad to an extent, but the media promotes it like its a good thing.
The devil, although many people try to avoids him, he is real and isn't the kind of person you would think him to be. He is smart and charming, because he hides himself behind the things that are bad, and makes it look like its good. Hell was officially made for him, but when Adam and Eve sinned it gave the devil the chance to bring as many people to destruction that he can.
If I was to re tell the scenario properly, because I realise how my choice of words made it difficult to comprehend...
Heaven is perfect. Christians believe that in heaven there is no sadness, no sin, death, pain etc. Some atheists claim that this is there heaven. Because unlike Christians we are only allowed to do the things that our God approves of. We have rules. And even though we are likely to break them they are there for us to use as a guideline of living.
Due to the fact that heaven is perfect; only perfect people are allowed inside.
And that doesn't even make sense because if only perfect people are allowed inside then that means none of us are getting in because none of us are prefect.
That is where Jesus comes in. Without Jesus there wouldn't be a Christian religion, because it is Him that allows us in heaven. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one gets to the father except through me." And this means that due to the fact we aren't perfect, Jesus takes our place in judgement and becomes the perfectness for us.
So when judgement day comes, and God looks at your life, he will only see a sinner. Someone that is not perfect. But when you have Jesus, when he looks at you he won't see your sin anymore; because instead he will Jesus and the sacrifice he made for your sins.
In the end, it's not about the rules us Christian people have. It's about Jesus. When he died on the cross, he died for you. Even if yo don't believe. He died for you because he knows that we aren't perfect, so he came to save us, to give us the opportunity to meet God. When the soldiers mocked him and said "if you are the son of God then why don't you come down?" Jesus could've jumped down if he wanted to. But it was our sin that held him there. He had to go through our judgement, he was separated from his own father because of us. He shed blood for me and you.
So it's not that if you do good you go to heaven. Because God appreciates that and blesses people that do good. But when that good person dies, although they may have saved thousands of life etc, they still aren't perfect, so they can't go to heaven.
But it's when you do good and believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and saviour, that gets you into heaven. Because God will look at you and only see your good as well as Jesus. He will no longer see your default, because Jesus has already paid the price of your sins.
Most people choose to reject God: one because of difficult times in their life where they feel that God doesn't help, and secondly because they are too indulged in their sin that it suddenly doesn't feel wrong to them anymore.
You are missing the vast majority of Atheists who have rejected God because there is no evidence for God. The fact that you can't acknowledge this group of people completely invalidates whatever garbage you write down.
Cartman, people like you are hard to talk to. Instead of just clearly debating you don't need to be so abusive and say that was I say is garbage. Preach what you stand for without showing hate for the opposition. It's people like you that I wouldn't want to meet in life. Where is the love?
I don't need to prove God's existence, only the people that really want to see it find it. People that don't really want to see it wont find it, it's that simple. And when you said that you can know what is right from wrong without having a God, then why do you hate knowing that it is wrong? You contradict your own words every single time you are rude.
I never said that atheism's point of view was garbage, intact I find it quite interesting. When you say that our beliefs are garbage, is what makes some Christians resent you because of what they have experienced. I'm glad that there are many other people here on this debate that can argue without preaching any hate.
It is because I listen to what you say and hold it against you.
Preach what you stand for without showing hate for the opposition.
Stop pretending like you have tried to figure out my motivation.
It's people like you that I wouldn't want to meet in life. Where is the love?
I see the opposite of love when you tell me what I believe without trying to figure out what I believe at all. I am treating you the exact same way that I am treated when I tell Christians they believe in a sky wizard.
I don't need to prove God's existence
I didn't ask you to. I hope this isn't a massive strawman used to completely change the subject.
People that don't really want to see it wont find it, it's that simple.
This is true of all people with imaginary friends.
And when you said that you can know what is right from wrong without having a God, then why do you hate knowing that it is wrong?
I hate you not knowing it is wrong.
I never said that atheism's point of view was garbage
I never said you said that. Your view of Atheism is garbage. I am saying it.
When you say that our beliefs are garbage, is what makes some Christians resent you because of what they have experienced.
I wasn't talking about your Christian beliefs. I was talking about your view of Atheism.
I'm glad that there are many other people here on this debate that can argue without preaching any hate.
Okay then Cartman, first of all I didn't say what you believed. I said some atheists don't believe in God because... Not you don't believe in God because...
Second of all, lets distinguish this using science. I believe personally that God is Science and all that lies behind it. The idea of a greater being lies between the magic of the universe. For example if we were to look at the earth. The way our earth is regimented almost makes it hard to believe that someone or something isn't holding it there. If earth was any closer to the sun, we would all freeze, and if we were further apart then we would all burn to death. And our earth has stood in the same place for all these years...
And I need to ask atheists this? Just out of curiosity. What is it about atheists that you would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that you don't believe even exists?!
I believe it is because God is calling you on a sly. He wants to make himself known, so he presses the issue on your mind so that one day you will come to acknowledge he exists. Atheists that I have met, always ask me the same question whenever they find out that I believe in Him. "How is your God real?" And I always think to myself, if you don't believe in him then why are you fussed? But I have come to reliase that atheists like those people are slyly looking for a way to be convinced that he is real. But I don't know? And that's why I came to this debate, to understand you guys.
Okay then Cartman, first of all I didn't say what you believed.
False: "Most people choose to reject God: one because of difficult times in their life where they feel that God doesn't help, and secondly because they are too indulged in their sin that it suddenly doesn't feel wrong to them anymore."
I said some atheists don't believe in God because... Not you don't believe in God because...
You said most and you are completely wrong.
Second of all, lets distinguish this using science.
Probably not a good idea for you.
I believe personally that God is Science and all that lies behind it.
Science is science and God is God. Replacing natural processes with God is silly to me since we already recognize those processes as nature.
The idea of a greater being lies between the magic of the universe.
Everyone who says this has no problem dismissing everyone elses version of God without blinking.
The way our earth is regimented almost makes it hard to believe that someone or something isn't holding it there.
The way that the rest of the entire universe is set up makes it very hard to believe that something is holding it there.
If earth was any closer to the sun, we would all freeze, and if we were further apart then we would all burn to death.
Ever heard of seasons? This idea is refuted by summer and winter. Your section of Earth moves closer and farther from the sun every year. This concept of being closer or farther drastically changing things is not accurate.
And our earth has stood in the same place for all these years...
How old is the Earth and how old is your data on the distance from the sun?
And I need to ask atheists this?
Well, since you are asking a question here, the answer is probably not, you probably shouldn't be asking whatever you plan on asking.
What is it about atheists that you would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that you don't believe even exists?!
Here are a few quotes for you, "Teach the controversy", "Bible says no gay marriage", "I will only vote for someone who believes in God", "You reject God so that you can sin", etc. It is foolish for you to believe that there aren't a whole bunch of people that are making decisions based on their belief in God and that it won't affect the people who don't believe in God.
I believe it is because God is calling you on a sly.
More of you not telling me what I believe I see.
He wants to make himself known
Africa proves this wrong.
so he presses the issue on your mind so that one day you will come to acknowledge he exists.
That's the exact opposite of wanting to be known.
Atheists that I have met, always ask me the same question whenever they find out that I believe in Him. "How is your God real?"
It helps gauge how crazy you are.
And I always think to myself, if you don't believe in him then why are you fussed?
Because they aren't sociopaths. They actually care about what you believe instead of making up your beliefs for you.
But I have come to reliase that atheists like those people are slyly looking for a way to be convinced that he is real.
This completely goes against your previously held beliefs about Atheists rejecting God. If they rejected God they wouldn't be looking for a way to believe in him.
And that's why I came to this debate, to understand you guys.
You repeatedly tell us your opinions of our beliefs instead of being able to relate with our beliefs. This only happens when you don't care about the other persons belief. You aren't trying to understand anyone but yourself.
Some atheists don't believe in God because... That is not completey wrong actually. Just because you don't believe that he exists because you say there is no proof, doesn't mean that everyone of the same belief thinks that as well. So just by the fact that you class yourself as all atheists entirely is wrong.
Although science is science and God is God, when you look at nature and how beautiful it is, to me it's hard to think that there was no supreme creator. Science explains that for something to exist there has to be a creator. So now what? How did the Big Bang go off of and create such beautiful things if it wasn't instructed to do so?
And who created God. God wasn't created. He was and is and will be still the beginning and end of time. For you to look at how the moon accurately controls the tide as if someone was behind it. Our human DNA is so intricate, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA instructs the cell. It is a full instruction manual.
Why is this so amazing? One has to ask....how did this information program wind up in each human cell? These are not just chemicals. These are chemicals that instruct, that code in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop.
Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it.
Jesus is proof that God is exists. And whether you believe in God or not, the facts are still there. As for gay marriage, that is not my place to say. I believe that it is wrong, however love them anyways. I cannot judge them, only God can. And you have told me all your beliefs without being able to relate to mine. And If that isn't enough, you are rude when you do it. Garbage, wacky, dumb, stupid... All these came from you. Which shows how angry you are at me for believing in something that you don't believe in.
Some atheists don't believe in God because... That is not completey wrong actually.
But, you initially said: "Most people choose to reject God" and that is wrong. I did not comment on your updated use of "some".
Just because you don't believe that he exists because you say there is no proof, doesn't mean that everyone of the same belief thinks that as well.
Just because you think that people reject God for the reasons that you said doesn't mean anyone actual rejects God for the reasons that you said.
So just by the fact that you class yourself as all atheists entirely is wrong.
I have a better understanding of what Atheists actually believe. I did not say you were wrong because you misrepresented just my beliefs.
Although science is science and God is God, when you look at nature and how beautiful it is, to me it's hard to think that there was no supreme creator.
The great thing is, it doesn't matter how you feel about it.
Science explains that for something to exist there has to be a creator.
No where in any science book will you ever find that. Science does not say anything about a creator.
So now what? How did the Big Bang go off of and create such beautiful things if it wasn't instructed to do so?
A singularity.
And who created God. God wasn't created.
I am glad you recognize the dilemma with your beliefs.
He was and is and will be still the beginning and end of time.
The Big Bang created time. The universe has existed from the beginning of time according to the Big Bang Theory. We don't need a God for that.
For you to look at how the moon accurately controls the tide as if someone was behind it.
The moon's gravity changing the tides does not look like someone control it. It looks like gravitational forces.
Our human DNA is so intricate, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA instructs the cell.
Our DNA has many regions that don't do anything.
that code in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop.
Wouldn't we all look a little more similar if the DNA was exact?
Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved.
That isn't true.
You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it.
You have never seen any instructions with precise information like DNA anywhere other than nature. Your belief is nice and all, but it is based on actual knowledge.
Jesus is proof that God is exists.
Lots of people are crazy and think they are the son of God.
And whether you believe in God or not, the facts are still there.
You haven't used any facts.
As for gay marriage, that is not my place to say.
It shouldn't be, and yet people like you think it is their place.
I believe that it is wrong, however love them anyways. I cannot judge them, only God can.
This doesn't have anything to do with marriage.
And you have told me all your beliefs without being able to relate to mine.
Which of your beliefs have I failed to relate to? Which of your beliefs have I tried to represent in a false way?
And If that isn't enough, you are rude when you do it.
I find your actions rude.
Garbage, wacky, dumb, stupid... All these came from you.
Yeah, those are all used accurately.
Which shows how angry you are at me for believing in something that you don't believe in.
This is why I call you garbage, wacky, dumb, and stupid. 2 arguments ago I said, "I wasn't talking about your Christian beliefs. I was talking about your view of Atheism." I am angry with you for your views about people like me. Not for not believing in what I believe in.
Lots of people are crazy and think they are the Som of God.
Well yeah they are crazy aren't they? But he will come again, and people will notice that he is real whether they like it or not.
Titus Flavius Josephus (37 – c. 100) wrote extensively about the Jews, from the time of Abraham up to day in which he lived. He was a Romano-Jewish historian and scholar. He was and still is well respected and what he wrote about Jesus in the Antiquities of the Jews was impressive. He writes in Book 18, chapter 3 that “Jesus was a wise teacher who was crucified by Pontius Pilate…” His accounts are held to be of the highest of authenticity. Josephus accurately describes the condemnation and crucifixion of Jesus at the hands of the Roman authorities. Some of Josephus’ writings include very convincing testimony of Christ like:
“About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate, had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.”
Other Historians
If Jesus Christ was a Christian invention, then why would more than one hundred ancient Historians include Christ in their writings if they knew he didn’t exist? We have already mentioned Josephus ,but there are so many others like Gibbons, where it was written of his accounts that “church historians allow the substantial justness of [Gibbon's] main positions” on the founder of and the religion of Christianity. We can be certain that historians, both secular and Christian, would not have written about someone that was only a myth. They wrote with certainty when speaking of Jesus. Even skeptical historians agree that the New Testament is a remarkable historical document and has stronger manuscript support than any other work of classical literature, including Homer, Plato, Aristotle, and Caesar, who all pale in evidential comparison.
It shouldn't be and yet people like you think it is there place.
I never said it was my place to judge, so why are you including me in it? Three is a difference between thinking something is wrong, and judging others because of their thoughts. I think it is wrong, but I don't judge others. So your point of me thinking that it is my place to judge is invalid.
And the reason that I don't judge, is because Gos is a God of love, and for people that want to live their life away from Him, they still deserve love. I just don't like the fact of some gay people getting married in a Chruxh when they know that being gay is a sin in Christianity. But that's none of my business anyways.
And you don't need to get angry at me for having different thoughts of atheists than you do. I didn't get angry at you when you claimed that because I am a Christian I call people fools all the time and that I'm just pretending to hide it.
Do your research and look at the historical findings of Jesus. Truly, I understand. You don't need a bible to tell you what is right from wrong. But you don't need the rules in schools either do you? We have both so we can fall back on them, whenever we are struggling with doing what is right. Christians have the Bible fundamentally because it involves Jesus. Listen to the poetry, "why I hate the religion but love Jesus."
Well yeah they are crazy aren't they? But he will come again, and people will notice that he is real whether they like it or not.
But, if Jesus was just some crazy guy, he doesn't really prove God.
Titus Flavius Josephus
Didn't Jesus die years before Josephus was born? How can he be a reliable witness?
I never said it was my place to judge, so why are you including me in it? Three is a difference between thinking something is wrong, and judging others because of their thoughts. I think it is wrong, but I don't judge others. So your point of me thinking that it is my place to judge is invalid.
Fine, you don't judge people.
But that's none of my business anyways.
Fair enough. That's a good position to take.
And you don't need to get angry at me for having different thoughts of atheists than you do.
You don't need to misrepresent a group of people, but you did it any way.
I didn't get angry at you when you claimed that because I am a Christian I call people fools all the time and that I'm just pretending to hide it.
I also wouldn't complain about you if you did get angry because it is total bullshit for me to act that way toward you.
Do your research and look at the historical findings of Jesus.
I will start doing that. I have to warn you though, I have never seen anything you wrote before and I have been looking for it for a while. I don't think I will find the sources you use to be as reliable as you find them.
But you don't need the rules in schools either do you?
Well, you kind of do need a lot of those. Most of the rules are about distracting/disrupting others and many would be unaware about their effect on others.
Thank you for writing back; talking to an atheist like this is fascinating and interesting as well. To answer your question; what if someone has never heard of Christianity, do they still go to hell?
The answer is in Romans 1 19-20 New International Version (NIV)
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Therefore this is saying that there can't be anyone that doesn't know about God. When you look around you, at the creation, all seasons, the ocean and all its wondrous creatures etc; it's hard to say that there isn't someone who has designed all of this. We stand in awe of places and we don't actually know why.
When we talk about places like London, where I am from. Jesus is everywhere. As a young child, we are taught "God save the queen," people stand about handing out leaflets of bibles, there are too many ways that God is presented to us, to say that we have never heard of him.
No one has an excuse for not knowing God. That knowledge comes to us naturally—much like the way we instinctively reach for water when we're thirsty. It's not something we have to learn.
And it's not just instinct that draws people to God. God uses visual aids too—his creation. We can see God through the divine design of nature.
When someone responds to these instincts and "visual aids" and truly reaches out to God, God will make sure that person understands his or her need for Christ. God, who loves us beyond comprehension and wants everyone to go to heaven (2 Peter 3:9), will arrange the details for that person to know the gospel—through a missionary, a tract, a Bible, whatever. Seek and ye shall find. When you solemnly want to know God, He will reveal himself to you.
Finally you sound like a decent person to talk to; lol.
I never said Jesus was a crazy guy, I said the people are. And this is annoying because people do things which make other people move away from God, instead of towards him.
Many people who lived after Jesus' death wrote things about him because he was still the talk of the town. This must be Joshephus' position. I guess we both have some researching to do.
Us Christians aren't the same, we interpret the Bible differently. So you find the Christians condemning people to hell. This to me, isn't nice because only God has the right to judge people. I am only 14 years old and still learning. But I know that my God is real. I guess my own life is more of the reason than anything else. Apart from the creation in front of my very own eyes. My testimony is why I know strongly that Jesus is real. But I can't really tell you about my life cause you don't know me well. Soz about that
Finally you sound like a decent person to talk to; lol.
Sorry, I didn't mean to ... jerk.
I never said Jesus was a crazy guy, I said the people are.
I said Jesus was a crazy guy.
And this is annoying because people do things which make other people move away from God, instead of towards him.
You do realize that the Jesus you believed in helped guide everyone away from Judaism, right?
Many people who lived after Jesus' death wrote things about him because he was still the talk of the town.
That is the definition of anecdotal evidence. That is like me documenting what happened during the Vietnam War.
So you find the Christians condemning people to hell. This to me, isn't nice because only God has the right to judge people.
Good, continue on your path.
I am only 14 years old and still learning.
Well, don't change. You are good.
But I know that my God is real. I guess my own life is more of the reason than anything else. Apart from the creation in front of my very own eyes. My testimony is why I know strongly that Jesus is real. But I can't really tell you about my life cause you don't know me well.
Firstly may I just clarify that you are like my best friend, she doesn't believe in God however talks as if she was willing to understand; for this I thank you for not being so rude in the way you speak.
I am glad you are able to be so non-hostile to people like your friend and I, and hope this conversation remains positive and open and whatnot.
Now, to your points...
First of all, God is an omnipresent God which means he sees everything and knows everything. Therefore there is a difference in the way he judges people that have never heard of Him before, than the people that have heard of Him and choose to reject him because they don't the whole view.
Well, that may be true through logic and reasoning, but it's unfortunately just not what the bible says. The text is very clear that if you sin, or commit the actions against God as described in the Bible, unless you feel forgiveness, you will go to Hell. That doesn't accommodate for people who have never heard of the sin, and especially not to those the rules.
If, for example, there was a person who had never read the Bible, and engaged in homosexual acts. They may have great intent, and be a truly great person, but they simply didn't know that the acts were forbidden under God's rules. According to the Bible, they would go to hell. How is that just?
And I mean, Jesus says, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No-one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6). In other words, you believe in Jesus, or you don't go to heaven. Simple as that. Especially for an omnipresent God, that is highly unreasonable and unfair to those who have no exposure to Christianity.
Most people choose to reject God: one because of difficult times in their life where they feel that God doesn't help, and secondly because they are too indulged in their sin that it suddenly doesn't feel wrong to them anymore.
Well, first of all, I disagree that most people reject God. Atheism may be growing, but theism is still by far the dominant position in the world and Christianity is still the largest religion in the world with over 2 billion people adhering to it.
And secondly, I disagree that those are the reasons people reject God. I don't know of any atheist who 'chose' to stop believing in God for the sake of sin, except perhaps those who believed that the 'sins' laid out were arbitrary, man-made, or simply illogical to be wrong. A vast majority of atheists find their way their due to themselves simply finding it very hard to believe the stories of the Bible or of any holy book could be factual.
That may be contributed in the things you say. If someone's mother is dying, and they read the Bible and see an 'all-loving, all-powerful' being, a being that created everything, including their mother's cancer, and a being with the power to stop the pain that chooses not to stop the pain, that might make them more critical of the "loving" part and then critical of the entire story.
My God is a loving God. Although he holds the key of hell, it is by his love that he gives us a way of avoiding the punishment.
Allow me to explain the flaw I see with this belief.
God created everything. Including Hell. Then, he doomed everyone to it. "But," he says, "if you worship me and do exactly as I say in this book, you won't go there."
That is simply not an act of love.
Our God is a jealous God because he doesn't like it when we go the other way and reject him, however he leaves us be because we have free will.
Well, first of all, he's omnipresent, so he never leaves us alone.
Also, if he truly loved us, wouldn't He do something to prevent us from suffering eternal torment? Like, say, not making eternal torment an option?
For the query of "if he is a loving God, then why does he send people to hell for sins that they didn't even know we're wrong," that is because for many people, they do know that the sin is wrong.
That does not in any way answer my question. He sends people who don't know they've done wrong to hell because some other people also exist?
All mankind know what is right from wrong, but nowadays it is hard to take that into account when our world promotes such bad stuff.
Wait... all of mankind knows what is right and what is wrong? Why do some societies just have different rules and customs, then? Why do people ever disagree about moral issues? Why have moral values changed with societies? Why are there rules laid out in the bible that are ridiculous under today's standards?
For example, getting drunk do the point of losing control of your actions, taking drugs, these things are bad to an extent, but the media promotes it like its a good thing.
What is morally wrong about getting drunk? What is morally wrong about taking drugs? Does the Bible say these are wrong? Not everyone agrees that these things are inherently bad.
The devil, although many people try to avoids him, he is real and isn't the kind of person you would think him to be. He is smart and charming, because he hides himself behind the things that are bad, and makes it look like its good.
What makes you so sure that he exists?
And again, God created all, including the devil. And God is omnipresent and all powerful, meaning that if he so wished, he could stop the devil from pulling people astray and into eternal torment. But he doesn't. How is this loving behavior?
Heaven is perfect. Christians believe that in heaven there is no sadness, no sin, death, pain etc.
That sounds awful. Sadness, sin, death, and pain are all elements that make us human. By the definition you gave here, once we go to heaven, we lose our humanity.
The only afterlife who you remain who you are would be Hell, then. So, in order to remain yourself after death, you must suffer eternal torment. Again, this doesn't appear to me to be a system set up by a loving God.
Because unlike Christians we are only allowed to do the things that our God approves of.
See, you said it right there. God doesn't reward those he loves, he rewards those who follow His rules. And there are plenty of His rules that logically, a lot of people find completely ridiculous, or don't know is wrong. And yet he punishes the people who don't do exactly as he says with infinite punishment. I can't find any way to justify that, and I am far from perfect. God claims to be a perfect being. How could he find this fair, or loving, or right?
That is where Jesus comes in. Without Jesus there wouldn't be a Christian religion, because it is Him that allows us in heaven. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one gets to the father except through me." And this means that due to the fact we aren't perfect, Jesus takes our place in judgement and becomes the perfectness for us.
In the end, it's not about the rules us Christian people have. It's about Jesus. When he died on the cross, he died for you. Even if yo don't believe. He died for you because he knows that we aren't perfect, so he came to save us, to give us the opportunity to meet God. When the soldiers mocked him and said "if you are the son of God then why don't you come down?" Jesus could've jumped down if he wanted to. But it was our sin that held him there. He had to go through our judgement, he was separated from his own father because of us. He shed blood for me and you.
This still isn't a loving action. I mean, first of all, what did Jesus really sacrifice? He knew he was going to heaven. Any finite period of time on Earth is literally nothing when compared to an infinite period of bliss.
Second, this doesn't absolve God of the cruel system he set up of punishing those who don't follow all of his rules. All He did was provide an out for people who happen to be convinced by a book written by humans that has no way to distinguish itself from the thousands upon thousands of other holy books out there.
And if you happen to read the wrong book, or believe the wrong person, or doubt the wrong thing using the skills of logic God gave you... you go to Hell. Where you burn and suffer for forever based on actions you made in a finite period of time. This is simply unfair, unloving, and villainous.
So it's not that if you do good you go to heaven. Because God appreciates that and blesses people that do good. But when that good person dies, although they may have saved thousands of life etc, they still aren't perfect, so they can't go to heaven.
And the only other option God provides is Hell. A place of eternal suffering. So if someone saves thousands of lives, they still will suffer forever. FOREVER. Even though God knows and recognizes that this person did good, that is irrelevant to him. All that matters is if they followed the rules he laid out, and since they didn't, they are in pain for a time so long that it is unfathomable.
But it's when you do good and believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and saviour, that gets you into heaven. Because God will look at you and only see your good as well as Jesus. He will no longer see your default, because Jesus has already paid the price of your sins.
Doesn't that contradict the whole 'all-knowing' thing? Say there are two people, and they both live identical lives, committing the same sins and the same good acts, but one finds a Bible and accepts Jesus, and the other finds the Torah and becomes a Jew. Other than that, they do the same thing.
God makes a judgement about their eternal soul based on one factor only: How much they loved him. That is not loving of humans. That is loving of Himself.
.
I hope I did not come off as rude, but I truly believe that these arguments you presented, and the arguments Christianity presents, are truly flimsy. I hope you find some time to read through this, sorry it's so long. I'd love to continue to hear your thoughts, and I hope you are willing to keep thinking about this.
I mean, think how exciting it would be if there is no God, or at least not a Christian one. Think how much more we have to learn, and think about, and think how exciting our lives are: they aren't just about pleasing some man in the sky who will decide the fate of our eternal soul.
Also if he truly loved us, wouldn't he do something to prevent us from suffering eternal torment?
He has, Jesus Christ. Our God is a God of justice; the only way to find real justice is if it comes from God.
Now Christians believe that no one is good "compared" to God. Note the word compared. I am not saying everyone is bad, but that no one is good enough if you to stand by God's pure holiness.
When some ask, if God was a loving God, then why do good people go to hell. The answer is this:
It is our human nature to put people below us according to the amount of good we do. So for example, imagine a wall and on one side is God and the other side we have humankind.
People will put themselves closer to God according to the sins they have committed. So therefore, a murderer would be underneath the liar. So the liar has a better chance of getting to heaven. But this is wrong, because if we all believed that we get to heaven based on the good we do; then that allows people to boast.
God sees all sin as the same, because all is going aganist God.
So a rich man will save thousands of lives with his money, and then put it on media to boast about it. God sees the heart of the man and if the deed is done for credit, this is not an act of good. When we do this, we become boastful and say that you have the right to heaven because you've been a good person and the bad person should perish.
The Pharisees done this, and Jesus being the King Of Jews, didn't like it. As Ephesians 2:8-9 reads, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — not by works, so that no one can boast" (NIV). Salvation is not by works, but by God's grace through Christ.
Like the man who approached Jesus and used the word "good," perhaps without giving it much thought, we too need to be careful how we use and define our terms. As Jesus answered, "No one is good – except God alone" (Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19). Do all "good" people go to heaven? Since no one is good as defined by God, the answer is, "No." Those who enter heaven do so not on the basis of merit, but on the basis of God's grace as bestowed by Jesus Christ. We can't work our way to heaven or claim to be without sin (1 John 1:8). Instead, we must humbly submit to God, turn from our wrong behavior, and turn to Christ for salvation.
I hope you can understand. Sorry that this is long also.
Grace is when God gives us what we don't deserve; and mercy is when God doesn't give us what we do deserve. "Broken can be beautiful, when grace sings the melody."
Also if he truly loved us, wouldn't he do something to prevent us from suffering eternal torment?
He has, Jesus Christ. Our God is a God of justice; the only way to find real justice is if it comes from God.
Yes, but that's still him providing a partial solution for a problem he created.
That would be like if I poisoned everyone on Earth, and said "I'll give the antidote to anyone who worships me and does whatever I say." That doesn't make me loving.
God sees all sin as the same, because all is going aganist God.
So you believe that a man who murders 50 people with no remorse is the same as a man who lusts after a women but does not act on it?
Those who enter heaven do so not on the basis of merit, but on the basis of God's grace as bestowed by Jesus Christ.
And how is that loving? If God loves us, why must we worship him to avoid the worst fate imaginable?
Grace is when God gives us what we don't deserve; and mercy is when God doesn't give us what we do deserve. "Broken can be beautiful, when grace sings the melody."
Are you implying that everyone deserves to be in pain for all of existence? It's a quantity of time that humans cannot even fathom. And you honestly believe that me, you, everyone you meet, everyone you love, everyone who has ever lived deserves to be in horrible agony for that endless period of time. Because what you're saying right now is that you believe that. Not that God said it, that you believe it.
So you believe that a man that murders 50 people with no remorse is the same as a man who lusts after a women and does not act on it.
No, I am saying that if both men do these things and ask for forgiveness, then they will both be forgiven. The man that murders wouldn't be the same because he has shown no remorse, but the man who lusts has and will be favoured. However if they both reject God then they are the same because in the end, they are both sinners with no Jesus Christ to atone for their sins.
God didn't create sin, Lucifer did. Although God created Lucifer, Luicifer was without sin; and chose to rebel. There is a difference of God causing you to sin, and God knowing you will sin. By God causing you to sin, this is not free will because God is playing the cards for you: but when God knows you will sin, this is free will because we choose to do what is bad.
And you say this as of Jesus is a bad thing. God isn't evil, so it's not like your worshipping the devil. Our God is an all loving God; so the things he tells us to do aren't bad in any way. But understand that if He gives you an opportunity to have salvation, and you reject Him and don't love Him; why do you then have the right to come into His kingdom?
That's like me being a geek who got bullied; throwing a massive party and inviting everyone, even the bullies; and asking them only to come and say sorry to me before the party, and then they can come. So the bully takes the invitation, and doesn't bother to say sorry until he sees everyone having fun in the party and then he says sorry. Why does that bully deserve to come in?
This is not God belong disloving, it is us. Because for people that believe, we believe not only because we want salvation, but because our God deserves praise for everything he has done for us.
For loving us unconditionally on Earth, when humans weren't capable of it. For forgiving us when we were at our darkest times, when humans weren't capable of it.
However when people that don't believe choose to believe, they only do it when they come to realise that He is real, and that they are going to Hell. So basically they give the invitation back when it's too late. Like the example of the party, when you give the invitation back to say you are coming, the geek writes your name in a book. When you say to God you are His and He is yours, and choose to follow Him, he writes your name in the book of life.
When the party starts you can't walk up to the door and say oh yeah can you write my name in the book please and let me in. Because that's just you basically saying, oh yeah I didn't really care about saying sorry to you, I just want to have a good time.
You can't go to heaven after you die and say oh yeah can you write my name in the book of life cause I don't want to go to hell. You're not sorry, you just want to have a good time.
But when you were on earth and were given the opportunity to come, you rejected it and said no cause I don't like God. This doesn't make sense and because God is a God of justice; it would be unjust for Him to let the people that rejected Him and hated Him, to come in his kingdom.
That's like me being a geek who got bullied; throwing a massive party and inviting everyone, even the bullies; and asking them only to come and say sorry to me before the party, and then they can come. So the bully takes the invitation, and doesn't bother to say sorry until he sees everyone having fun in the party and then he says sorry. Why does that bully deserve to come in?
What did humans ever do to bully God?
Your argument is that we broke His rules, right? Except... he made the rules. And if the rules only exist because he made them, he made them arbitrarily.
What if the geek said, "Everyone who has ever said the word 'potato' has hurt me." And then threw a party, and invited everyone. Those that had said potato had to apologize to get in. And those that had said potato and didn't apologize got shot and killed.
Is the geek being loving?
.
Allow me to explain my analogy again
So say I believe that everyone who has ever lived has wronged me for whatever reason. I have rules that I made up, and they broke them. So, as punishment, I poison everyone on Earth.
Then, I say, "Don't worry, I love you. So, if you do exactly what I say, worship me, and say you're sorry for breaking all of my rules and truly believe it, I'll give you the antidote."
Please. Explain to me how that is loving?
.
What if I said to you, "Never use the word "potato" ever again, or else I'll kill you. Since you've said it before, you're going to die. But, if you feel legitimately bad about saying potato in the past, you get to live." What happens?
You might stop saying potato, because you are interested in self-preservation. But will you actually believe that saying potato is bad? Would you honestly think I am being loving for offering you life?
I found the ancient government approved historical records easily. I don't know why it's hard for you. They make clear reference to the sky darkening for three hours during Christ's crucifixion, clear reference to the "sect" of Christians they were annoyed with, and other references. It's easy to find on the net if I can do it. I'm pretty much computer illiterate, but I know how to type in my browers "early historical references to Jesus Christ outside of the Bible."
I've been reading your stuff and it sounds great, you sound like some of the teens at my church who in simplicity of the truth shine bright compared to the atheists and agnostics. Keep it up, don't let them discourage you......the Bible has all of the answers and the internet (which the lazybones use for their arguments) makes it easy to find supports in all areas of argument against God......
These people won't like your answers and they will deny every stitch of truth you present, and they will come up with all kinds of half-truths and twisted logic to try to tell themselves they are self justified by their existence or morals and don't need God's mercy.
I'll be happy to help if you need anything.
The Jewish religious leaders and the Roman leaders had a vested interest in trying to keep people from becoming Christians, and they gave far less notice in the historical account that the events of Christ's earthly life and the unstoppable spread of Christianity deserved. There are enough historical records that we have an accurate enough picture of how things happened in the first, second, and third centuries.......and the eyewitness accounts of believers kept and passed along in a faith stronger than life for which they paid with their blood. The message of the gospel is precious and will never cease.
Sorry, I just don't understand how you believe that nothing became something and something exploded creating everything. Well then if God doesn't exist why can't we kill each other? I mean then we are all just monkeys.
Sorry, I just don't understand how you believe that nothing became something
You believe God came from nothing. We both believe that something came from nothing.
Well then if God doesn't exist why can't we kill each other?
That's an interesting question. Statistically speaking, most murderers are Christian, and Christians are more likely to kill you than Atheists. So, we already know that without God people kill less. If we look at evolution we find the answer. Humans evolved to be social creatures and to protect each other. Survival is based on the entire group surviving, not just the individual. So, without God you stick to your evolutionary roots and don't kill people because it helps you to survive.
I mean then we are all just monkeys.
Believing in God is not what makes you better than monkeys.
We Christians belive God always existed but yes we both have to have faith in what we believe. What?? Most murderers are Christians? I think our ideas of Christianity are different. Yes believing in God does make us better than monkeys because we can talk, reason, and don't need to follow our incstincs.
One of the things that helps is to remember your conscience. No matter who you are, everybody has one.
I believe that God has given every single human being one. We are unique because when we do something wrong, our good conscience takes over and we get that gut feeling that makes us feel like it's wrong. Because it probably is.
But then, you may be thinking, manners are taught, right? You're not born with manners. You get taught them. So, someone might be taught (although I'm not sure who) that murdering is okay. But they can still get that gut feeling.
Over time, if one chooses to ignore their good conscience over and over and over again (take Hitler for instance) it eventually gets so quiet that you can't feel it anymore.
That's how I remember that there's is an ALMIGHTY GOD. But he is merciful and forgiving of those who don't really deserve it.
I interpreted her statement as Atheists are more likely to embrace science and Christians are more likely to reject science. Do you at least think that would be a fair statement?
That may have been her intention, but my recollection is that she also sometimes believes in the generalities she speaks in. All I have to go by is what she actually said; she can clarify if she likes, of course.
I'll use common sense and not bible text for my evidence
I am a forced Christian, a person who was forced to believe in God by not his will. I have to experience with atheists, but I think they wouldn't have to eat the bread of god or blood of god (wine, even for kids) since that seems to be a lie. My church always says that the bread of god is just bread in a thin circle and blood of god is wine. They say to pray every so 2 hours which I find bulls--t because that waste my time.
My church always says that the bread of god is just bread in a thin circle and blood of god is wine.
It is symbolism of God's blood that was shed by his son to save us our sins and same with the bread symbolizing his body given to us so our sins are forgiven
At the door, someone keeps telling us to join the church every Sunday, Saturday, and Monday at 11:30 saying that we need to go to the church or else god will kill you. Same threat, but we still go anyways. And I know the bread resembles his body and blood as wine, but I don't see those specific things for those items. It seems that my church is in terrible conditions!
I don't see where either are "awesome". One is based on common sense and apparent fact, the other is based on ancient stories no apparent fact. One supplies some mythical figure to lean on, the other says we only have ourselves to lean on. One is looking for answers, one thinks they HAVE all the answers they need. I'll keep looking.
Atheists have the factual standing, moral standing, and plainly put I have never seen a Christian defend their position without resorting to ad hominem arguments.
The majority of Christians and relgious believers are indoctrinated they rarely have little or any choice in their religious beliefs , the whole reason religion has so many believers is because children from the time they're born have this nonsense spoon fed to them and it's reinforced societally by family , friends , schools etc , etc .
Imagine if a child was not introduced to religion till they were 18 years of age and that they were then presented with the bible told to read it and form an opinion ?
I bet most would dismiss it for the complete and utter nonsense it is although most will of course deny this .
Atheists are braver for having the guts to go against the grain by using reason and common sense to see though indoctrination and how devious it truly is .
In one corner you have sheeple following a book written by shepherds thousands of years ago, who only think they have to be good because they got orders to be that way and face the most sadistic punishments in hell if they don't obey. In the other corner you have free thinkers choosing not to live in fear, choosing to be civil and kind because they want to, and embracing science and new learning. Sorry but free men and women beat sheeple.
