Communism or democracy, Which is better?
Side Score: 10
Side Score: 11
If we are using Marxist literature as a reference for Communism, then there isn't a distinction between either Communism or Democracy. The two are mutually inclusive. Communism is an attempt to, quote: "...win the battle of democracy...", by returning the sociopolitical province to a more pure form by raising up the proletariat and removing private property (among other outlets), specifically land and its resources. That is, power is given to the collective to move the end of history and not an institution (i.e. actual democracy--rule by the many). And Marx doesn't reject enterprise, or the free market, or free market enterprise. He rejects the dialectic materialism of history (vis a vis "history") and Capitalism (insofar as his issue is with the worship of capital in the Capitalist system).
Now, there isn't such a thing as an "applied ideal" that doesn't meet the criteria of said ideal. There's just a skewing of the ideal; the examples provided by ThePyg, for example, are simply dystopian ones--especially in the sense that the Communist Manifesto is a Utopian project, as an End of History perspective, and therefore antithetical to what occurred in places like Russia. A dictatorship cannot be an "applied" form of Communism any more than a highly regulated market can be an "applied" form of a "free market" system.
First of all this debate is quite odd, since after all you could have a democractic communism. The title should be democracy vs dictatorship, or capitalism vs communism. However, I am assuming that the latter argument is the one which you are implying, and i must say that a democratic communist government will function better then a democratic capitalistic government in most cases, however I believe socialism will function better then either of these policies.
you cant compare communism with democracy because communism is an economic model, not really political. what i do know about communism though is that everyone is guaranteed to eat and everyone has the same amount. no one is rich, and no one is poor. i think that it is entirely possible that you can have a communist democracy. if the majority voted that everyone should have an equal amount of food, clothing, and shelter, then you should have a communist democracy. i dont think that it is too far fetched to see people vote for something like this, provided they know what is in their best interest. the problem with capitalist democracies is that its citizens are brain washed, and convinced that capitalism is the best. the people behind this propaganda are usually corporations, and people who benefit from that.
Well, before I continue, I guess we should differ applied Democracy/Communism from ideal Democracy/Communism.
Basically, applied is what the real state of each form of government is and ideal is what books written on it are.
Applied Communism: USSR, Cuba, China, Cambodia, North Vietnam
Ideal Communism: Based on the books written by Marx and Engels.
Applied Democracy: United States, and most of Western Europe
Ideal Democracy: Going all the way back to the Greek times, where citizens decided everything.
Idealy, I neither like Democracy nor Communism for they take away power from the minority.
Democracy gives the citizens the ability to take an innocent man's life (Socrates).
Communism limits the benefits of a Free Enterprise system.
Applied, I like Democracy and hate Communism. Democracy incorporates Capitalism as the economic goal and usually has a Constitution attached, keeping voters from taking away individual rights (unfortunately, politicians suck at reading the Constitution).
Communism usually ends up as a dictatorship where the dictator enforces the goals of Communism through violent measures. Anyone who is religious, believes in Capitalism, is intelligent, or wishes for technological or scientific progression is murdered by the regime. Every bit of your life is regulated to make sure that you are set with the Communist way.
I actually agree with almost all of what you said, apart from one or two tiny bits.
"Democracy incorporates Capitalism as the economic goal..."
I think a lot of the more successful democracies actually incorporate a good mix of capitalism and socialism. I don't think either as complete theories could ever be implemented successfully, however implemented together they seem to work very well. It's just such a shame that when implemented in its pure form, capitalism is great for those embracing it, but terrible for those who are the victims of it (e.g. Africa).
"keeping voters from taking away individual rights (unfortunately, politicians suck at reading the Constitution)."
Another unfortunate property of democracy is the tyranny of the majority, which often leads to individual rights being taken away by the voting majority (as evident with proposition 8). Do you happen to think that that is an unfortunate property of democracy itself, or simply bad implementation? Maybe it's a symptom of what I call "collective morals," where as a group people will often agree that, just as a crude example, something needs to be done about healthcare, however when it actually comes to the time when they may have to dip their hands in their pockets, suddenly the collective morality of society as a whole doesn't actually fulfil its promise when we are given the choice as individuals. What do you think?
It seems such a shame that all of the experiments into communism so far have failed (though, they are always actually dictatorships disguised as communism from the very start). If communism could be applied in a way that stayed true to its original ideals, what would you think of communism then? (ie. What are your thoughts on communist theory rather than the failed implementations?)
The very ideal of Communism seems retarded to me. The idea that we can eliminate private property and classes and somehow everyone will just go along with it, working for the common good instead of self-fulfillment. As a human being, I like self-fulfillment. Whether it be that new video game that comes out or an electric car that goes from 0-60 in 2.3 seconds.
To me, self-fulfillment has helped create things we could never even dream of. Sure, greed has its major set backs (such as a ruthless employer or lying corporations), but Communism certainly isn't the answer to this. All it brings is the exact opposite. And, people just don't work that way. Hell, even I wouldn't be able to live in some Communist dream where the working class IS the business class and no one works for themselves. I do things for myself sometimes, and other times I do things for others.
Democracy, ideally, is also retarded. That's why I like a Constitution to set some basic rules that the majority can't fuck with (and as I said, politicians rape us with their inability to read, allowing the majority to do stupid shit like Prop 8).
The majority shouldn't be allowed to make ALL decisions because the majority are selfish and retarded. Same reason why Communism can never work, the majority are selfish and retarded. And even if Communism DID work, it would leave us basically where we are now. 50 years from now will look practically the same as it does now. And, this is assuming that ALL people drop religion, drop materialism, and drop the want for more. Basically, drop human nature (just replace religion with ideology).
The system that the Western World has developed (whether it be Social Democracy or Capitalist Democracy) is a pretty good system. Yes, we have our issues with political correctness (Conservative and Liberal) that is the moral sting on our ability to progress and remember our Constitution, but it sure as hell beats what all the other countries have.
hi i am the host of the debate. i should of been more specific about the argument. instead of democracy i mean a republic, which is what we are and is a different form of democracy. as for communism i don't mean Marxism, Marx invented socialism not communism, Stalin invented communism off socialism. any way back to the debate. communism is a interesting idea if it was in the control of a just leader, i would prefer it besides 2 things, communism has complete censorship of religion and ideas, which i don't like, and communist countries have never been under just and fair rulers. plus the last phase of communism, giving control back to the people has never happened, and never will in a communist country. i prefer democracy because of individual rights given to the people that government cant take away, plus the small central gov and its power distributed across 3 distinct forms is a great way of protecting the people.
it appears my knowledge of communism is a little shabby. i was unaware of democratic communism. if you are referring to china as your example, i was pretty sure they are not a Democratic communism but a socialist democracy which is very similar to communism. and i thought communism was a totalitarian type of reign. not a attribute a democracy or authoritarian government could impose or pick up to its rules and life style for its people.
Lets pretend this is Capitalism or Communism.
•Capitalism incorporates the American Dream.
•Communists are by definition "Godless" therefor no religion can be obtained.
•In communist countries, no "Shining Individuals" can be found because everyone has equal jobs, and lazy people get paid just as much as hardworking citizens.
•Communists cannot vote for there leader