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Critique from atheists please
In trying to hold a strictly logical defense of my atheism, I hold that gods are beings regarded (either mistakenly or correctly) as infallible. I do not disbelieve in the existence of these beings, As an atheist there are no beings that I hold as infallible.
I am atheist because I worship no beings (recognize no one as god), it has nothing to do with a lack of ability to appreciate any particular culture's god stories.
This makes sense to me, but you won't get many people on here to agree with you. You can call yourself Agnostic and everyone will agree that you are an Agnostic.
What is infallibility to a non physical being hell the laws of physics probably don't even apply to them if they exist!
But for real, I know that the judeo christian god is considered infallible because it is impossible for it to sin, which sounds about right for a holy god lol
I dont really pay attention to any other gods because they just seem like fairytales (the irony)
I believe in a god because of self experiences idk how to explain lol
The word atheist comes from the latin word, theist which means "to have theory". So if you are atheist you have no theory, doesn't mean you are ignorant.
I'm atheist, just like i'm a-leprechanist and a-unicornist.
The word atheist comes from the latin word, theist which means "to have theory". So if you are atheist you have no theory, doesn't mean you are ignorant.
Actually, it comes from the Greek word atheos... Which means, "without God."
Yeah, he hasn't refused to believe it is real, he is only claiming that he doesn't follow the same thing. It gets confusing because God can't be proven. It is possible for God to exist, or for God not to exist. If he doesn't pick a side, you can't know if he refuses God. His statement indicates that he hasn't really picked a side.
So, all he has to say is that he doesn't believe in Gods. That is the simplest definition of atheist. He would save himself (and me!) a lot of confusion if he just went with the most universal definition.
Well, I would imagine simultaneous typing and strumming would be difficult. But if these were live debates, I'd be disappointed if you didn't serenade us with your arguments. And maybe do a bitchin' solo after the best ones.
Do people ever stop to wonder why T.H. Huxley coined the term agnosticism in the first place? He wanted there to be a third alternative (theism, atheism, and agnosticism). Atheism didn't really catch on as meaning simply the "lack of belief in God" until after Huxley's word started gaining popularity. Prior to that, atheism was the term for people who believed that a god does not exist. It still means that, but people started saying, "Oh, wait... atheism when broken down simply means 'without God.' That can mean that I neither believe nor disbelieve in God... Wait, that sounds a lot like Huxley's term, agnosticism... I guess they mean the same thing!" So, the genius who decided to play with semantics saw that atheism, which comes from the Greek word atheos, means "without God" and theism, which comes from the Greek word theos, means "God." But atheism had always been a position which asserts that there are no gods.
"The word "atheism" is a direct cognate -- in fact, it is a transliteration -- of the Classical Greek word atheos (here, written with English letters). Its meaning, as demonstrated in the writings of Aeschylus and Diogenese Laertius, is best expressed as: "one who disdains or denies God or the gods and their laws." (See Bauer, Walter. Greek-English Lexicon. 2nd edition. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979. p.20)."
"In Greek the particle "a" can certainly mean "without" or "lacking" in the passive sense and when related to passive verbs, but in the case of the Greek noun atheos "a" conveys the active sense of "reversal of essence" or "opposite of condition" or "inversion of meaning." Hence, in this case, it means the bipolar opposite of its root-word theos. If "theism" is the belief that deities exist, then "atheism" is the belief that no-deities exist. Please note the place of the negation particle: when applied to nouns it should always be linked with the object, not an implied predicate; that which is believed IN is being negated, not the act of believing which is implied in the noun. In other words, and as a matter of simple Greek grammar, an atheos is one who denies the existence of a specific deity or of deities in general. Since "atheism" and "atheist" are derived from this noun, their meaning in English should follow suit. It is, hence, a misunderstanding of Greek morphology for the act of believing to be negated by the linguistic particle "a."
"While atheists will assert their identity however they wish, their analysis of the construction of the word "atheism" as being simply a passive "without god-belief" is linguistically invalid. True, the sense of passive negation is, indeed, one which the particle "a" can convey; however, that particular sense is foreign to the grammar and historical usage of the noun atheos."
Did you ever stop to think I call myself an Atheist because Christians have called me an Atheist for not believing in their God?
I would be fine with the 3 alternatives, but everything is considered as a system of 2. You either believe in a God and are a Theist, or you don't believe in a God and you are an Atheist.
Did you ever stop to think I call myself an Atheist because Christians have called me an Atheist for not believing in their God?
So, when we are talking about God in the general sense, are you still an atheist?
I would be fine with the 3 alternatives, but everything is considered as a system of 2. You either believe in a God and are a Theist, or you don't believe in a God and you are an Atheist.
You either believe that God exists, or you believe that God does not exist... Or you are in the middle. There is an in-between for every system of two. Agnosticism is simply the "maybe" to the God question, where as theism is "yes" and atheism is "no."
If theists are people who believe that God exists, then what do you call people who believe that God does not exist, if not atheists?
So, when we are talking about God in the general sense, are you still an atheist?
Agnostic.
You either believe that God exists, or you believe that God does not exist... Or you are in the middle. There is an in-between for every system of two. Agnosticism is simply the "maybe" to the God question, where as theism is "yes" and atheism is "no."
No, you can't require a maybe answer to the yes or no question. That question only determines if you are a theist. That's the problem. A no answer means you are an Atheist or an Agnostic. If you answer the question "are there no Gods" a yes would be Atheist, and a no would mean Theist or Agnostic. So, yes/no is Theist, no/yes is Atheist, and no/no is Agnostic. You can't require a maybe. People were using the no answer to your question to determine Atheists. That's where my problem comes from.
If theists are people who believe that God exists, then what do you call people who believe that God does not exist, if not atheists?
That's fine. Although, I don't believe that is how it works. Theists have their God. Non Theists just live their lives without a God.
No, you can't require a maybe answer to the yes or no question.
Require? It is only an option. There just happens to be a "maybe" in this yes or no question. I would think that "maybe" would be an option for just about any opinion-based question.
That question only determines if you are a theist.
The question is "does God exist?"
Theist= Yes
Atheist= No
Agnostic= Maybe
If you answer the question "are there no Gods" a yes would be Atheist, and a no would mean Theist or Agnostic.
Agnostic would still be "maybe."
People were using the no answer to your question to determine Atheists. That's where my problem comes from.
But there is a third alternative... You even admitted that you are an agnostic when referring to God in the general sense.
That's fine. Although, I don't believe that is how it works. Theists have their God. Non Theists just live their lives without a God.
That is true, but the difference between non-theists is that an agnostic also lives their life without asserting that God does not exist.
I think people fuck up the definition of atheism the same way others misinterpret the definition of religion and assume that anything can qualify as one. It is convenient for people to be in a position they do not have to defend, but it gets confusing when there are two positions like that. It is not the verb "believe" that disappears with atheism. Belief is still there, it just shifts to the opposite side. Belief is basically the axis with which the two viewpoints share.
Require? It is only an option. There just happens to be a "maybe" in this yes or no question. I would think that "maybe" would be an option for just about any opinion-based question.
You made it a requirement by saying the only way you are an Agnostic is if you answer maybe to the question. You can't say maybe is normal for a yes or no question. The only answers that make sense for a yes or no question is yes or no.
The question is "does God exist?"
Theist= Yes
Atheist= No
Agnostic= Maybe
No, it would make perfect sense for an Agnostic to answer no.
Theist = Yes
Atheist or Agnostic = No
Agnostic = Maybe
Agnostic would still be "maybe."
You won't get 100% of Agnostics to answer maybe because it is a question that is only supposed to have 2 answer choices.
But there is a third alternative... You even admitted that you are an agnostic when referring to God in the general sense.
There are 2 (obvious) answer choices and 3 possible groups of people. There is a problem.
That is true, but the difference between non-theists is that an agnostic also lives their life without asserting that God does not exist.
I think people fuck up the definition of atheism the same way others misinterpret the definition of religion and assume that anything can qualify as one. It is convenient for people to be in a position they do not have to defend, but it gets confusing when there are two positions like that. It is not the verb "believe" that disappears with atheism. Belief is still there, it just shifts to the opposite side. Belief is basically the axis with which the two viewpoints share.
When they talk about the growing Atheist population in America, I think Agnostics are grouped with them.
You made it a requirement by saying the only way you are an Agnostic is if you answer maybe to the question.
How else can you be an agnostic? The only way you can answer "maybe" to a question is if you don't want to commit to either yes or no.
You can't say maybe is normal for a yes or no question.
But the question is not limited to just yes or no. There is a "maybe." If not, then it would not be recognized as one of the options.
No, it would make perfect sense for an Agnostic to answer no.
That defies what an agnostic is. A common argument is:
Theist= Yes
Positive Atheist= No
Negative Atheist= Maybe
Agnostic= Maybe
However, I think that the true definition of atheism is only positive atheism. Those terms did not really appear until people started accepting that "maybe" was a good position to take... But the problem is that there is already a word for "maybe," and it is agnosticism.
You won't get 100% of Agnostics to answer maybe because it is a question that is only supposed to have 2 answer choices.
Agnostics are already answering "maybe" by being agnostic.
There are 2 (obvious) answer choices and 3 possible groups of people. There is a problem.
So, anytime you answer "maybe" to a question, you are really saying "no"?
When they talk about the growing Atheist population in America, I think Agnostics are grouped with them.
That does not mean they have the definition right. Christians, or other theists, may categorize all non-theists as atheists, but there is really only one group of non-theists that actually asserts that God does not exist... And it is not the agnostics.
How else can you be an agnostic? The only way you can answer "maybe" to a question is if you don't want to commit to either yes or no.
An Agnostic is not a Theist and not an Atheist. Your question can only really find out if I am a Theist. If you ask 2 questions you can be sure. "Do you believe in God?" and "Do you believe there is no God?" The yes/no is the Theist, the no/yes are the Atheist, and the no/no are the Agnostics. The yes/yes are like the Joker, they just want to watch the world burn.
But the question is not limited to just yes or no. There is a "maybe." If not, then it would not be recognized as one of the options.
It is a yes or no question. Maybe is not listed as an option. You can't guarantee that "maybe" will be given.
So, anytime you answer "maybe" to a question, you are really saying "no"?
I am saying any time you are saying no it could be maybe. The question is finding out who is a Theist, so a no answer encompasses non-theists.
That does not mean they have the definition right. Christians, or other theists, may categorize all non-theists as atheists, but there is really only one group of non-theists that actually asserts that God does not exist... And it is not the agnostics.
Ok. But, there gets to be a confusion between Atheist and non-theist and that's where I am having the problem.
Your question can only really find out if I am a Theist. If you ask 2 questions you can be sure. "Do you believe in God?" and "Do you believe there is no God?" The yes/no is the Theist, the no/yes are the Atheist, and the no/no are the Agnostics.
My question was, "does God exist?" A theist is confident that the answer is yes. An atheist is confident that the answer is no. An agnostic has no opinion either way. Does an agnostic believe in God? No... But an agnostic also isn't asserting that a God does not exist. That is the difference between an agnostic and an atheist. There is more to atheism than a lack of belief in God, which is why agnosticism cannot qualify as atheism. When the question is, "do you believe in God?" I agree that the answer must be yes or no. Responding with "maybe" would just be confusing. Same with "Do you believe there is no God?" But my question was neither of those.
It is a yes or no question. Maybe is not listed as an option. You can't guarantee that "maybe" will be given.
The questions you listed are definitely limited to just yes or no, but the one I asked leaves the door open for "maybe." "Do you believe in God?" does not clearly define the viewpoint of the people being asked, because like you said, an agnostic would answer "no," which causes people to assume that agnostics can be referred to as atheists, as well. Asking the question, "does God exist?" makes things more clear. "Maybe" would be the more honest response, since nobody actually knows if God exists, but like I said, theists have confidence that God exists, and atheists are confident that God does not exist. They are opinion-based positions regarding the existence of God, not just the belief or lack of belief in God.
I am saying any time you are saying no it could be maybe.
The two questions you asked can not be answered with "maybe," though... Unless you are trying to be mysterious:
"Do you believe in God?"
"Maybe... ;)"
Or...
"Do you believe in God?"
"No."
"Hmm... I'm not so sure. Maybe you do..."
However, I know I'm repeating myself a lot, but:
"Does God exist?"
"Maybe."
"True..."
Or...
"Does God exist?"
"No."
"You don't know that..."
"Obviously... That's why I call myself an agnostic atheist, to point out how I believe God does not exist, but I don't actually know if God exists or not."
"Oh, nice... You gave yourself a label to point out that you are both an atheist and a human. Good job."
If you are not asserting that God does or does not exist, then you are kind of standing on the sidelines as an agnostic.
The question is finding out who is a Theist, so a no answer encompasses non-theists.
Question: "Does God exist?"
Well, yeah... A "yes" answer would certainly put you into the category of theist. A "no" answer places you with atheists... And a "maybe," which is clearly a possible answer with my question, places you into the category of agnosticism.
If you still disagree with me, can you explain to me how "maybe" is the same as "no" for that question?
Ok. But, there gets to be a confusion between Atheist and non-theist and that's where I am having the problem.
I understand what you mean when you say "non-theist," but I should point out that nontheism is an actual term that describes a position that is unconcerned with deities. Basically, they have no opinion, kind of like agnostics. Since both atheism and theism share the word theism, nontheism encompasses both of those.
Anyways, someone who is not a theist is somebody who does not assert that God exists. An atheist is not a theist, obviously... And neither is an agnostic... Except, an agnostic also is not an atheist, because they do not assert that God does not exist.
My question was, "does God exist?" A theist is confident that the answer is yes.
Oh. I was answering the wrong question.
Does an agnostic believe in God? No
So, the answer to do you believe in God would be no as well.
But an agnostic also isn't asserting that a God does not exist. That is the difference between an agnostic and an atheist. There is more to atheism than a lack of belief in God, which is why agnosticism cannot qualify as atheism. When the question is, "do you believe in God?" I agree that the answer must be yes or no. Responding with "maybe" would just be confusing. Same with "Do you believe there is no God?" But my question was neither of those.
I read your question wrong. Sorry. But, in my defense, your question is not asked often. I think an Agnostic would usually say "I don't know." I was discussing a different question, oops. But, I was talking about my question before you actually asked yours.
You started with "You either believe that God exists, or you believe that God does not exist" and brought up the maybe part. After that you asked directly if God exists and I missed it.
So, the answer to do you believe in God would be no as well.
Yeah. I think people have wrongly assumed that "do you believe in God?" is the question that is asked to determine whether someone is a theist or an atheist, though. If someone answered "yes," then it is obvious that they are a theist... But if someone answers "no," then it gets a little tricky. I think it is easier to determine where somebody stands when they are asked the question, "does God exist?"
But, in my defense, your question is not asked often. I think an Agnostic would usually say "I don't know."
"Maybe" is basically just another way of saying, "I don't know."
I was discussing a different question, oops. But, I was talking about my question before you actually asked yours.
You were? I think when I mentioned the "God question," we both had different questions in mind.
Yeah. I think people have wrongly assumed that "do you believe in God?" is the question that is asked to determine whether someone is a theist or an atheist, though. If someone answered "yes," then it is obvious that they are a theist... But if someone answers "no," then it gets a little tricky. I think it is easier to determine where somebody stands when they are asked the question, "does God exist?"
Yeah, that would be easier.
"Maybe" is basically just another way of saying, "I don't know."
Right, I was agreeing with you saying that the third option would be taken.
You were? I think when I mentioned the "God question," we both had different questions in mind.
Yeah, you mentioned believing in God, so I thought we were talking about the question I had in mind. Then you asked the actual question and I didn't even see it.
You're wrong. The word atheist comes from the latin word "theist", which means "having a theory".
Therefore if you are "atheist" you have no-theory. He says he doesn't disbelieve in the existence of these beings, that doesn't mean he has a "theory" about them.
After further research I have to agree with you that saying "I don't disbelieve in a higher existence" is in-fact going against the definition of atheism. My mistake.
After further research I have to agree with you that saying "I don't disbelieve in a higher existence" is in-fact going against the definition of atheism. My mistake.
Not sure where you got that, but the "the" in theism derives from "theos", which implies God. Show me any definition of the word "atheism" that means "no theory".
Just that one. I went to Oxford after, which has the exact same definition for disbelief, but not one I liked for disbelieving. I was going to check miriam-webster, but then I got hi-jacked by a cute cat video. Damn internet.
But seriously, I always go to dictionary.com first.
You can't use the definition of disbelieve to counter my use of the word disbelief. They are different words. I didn't realize what you did until just now.
