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Theism necessarily endorses a worldview critically different from that held by most atheists. While this does not preclude a theist from being helpful to an atheist living with depression, it does create an additional obstacle for navigating an already difficult situation.
here is why atheists are depressed .... Romans 1:21 .. for even though they knew [about] God .. they did not honor him as God or give thanks .. but they became futile in their speculations .. and their foolish heart was darkened .... here is how one escapes this heartless trap .... http://www.gty.org/products/Audio-Series/201_The-Beatitudes ... enjoy
Yeah: Atheism, as defined by the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, and other philosophy reference works, is the denial of the existence of God.
Like Cartman said, not only is this not a dictionary, but the article did not imply what you are stating. At this point, what the article is discussing is purely hypothetical. To date, nobody, atheist or otherwise, has demonstrated immortality.
Im not atheist according to that definition. I believe god exists as a psychological phenomenon. What label should I use to define myself? I was using the fact that I "regard no one as worthy of worship" as the basis of my atheism, since I realized the futility of trying to jusify it by "lack of belief in god".
Well....do you actively believe that that psychological phenomenon can exist independently of the mind and/or has powers that the mind in question itself does not?
No. But this is not a lack of belief in the phenomenon we refer to as god, it is lack of agreement with certain others concerning god's characteristics. Do you agree that god is nothing but a psychological phenomenon ?
We don't say hallucinations or lies are real things. Your attempts at linguistic cleverness don't do you, God, or anyone you are conversing with any good. If you believe God is nothing but a psychological phenomenon, then you don't believe God exists, particularly not in the context that virtually everyone else means when talking about the subject.
Had you not avoided answering the question, the logical inconsistency in your thinking on the subject would have been more clearly exposed.
We don't say hallucinations or lies are real things.
They are real. To say that hallucinations aren't real is folly. If they weren't real, how could they cause misunderstandings about reality. Causally potent things are real, even if misunderstood, and poorly described.
Your attempts at linguistic cleverness don't do you, God, or anyone you are conversing with any good.
You just don't want to admit that I have a point. That's why you wouldn't directly answer the question. Do you suppose your thinly veiled insult did some good?
If you believe God is nothing but a psychological phenomenon, then you don't believe God exists, particularly not in the context that virtually everyone else means when talking about the subject.
I don't agree that he is just a physochological phenominon. He is also a social phenominon, and an error of attribution among other things. But none of these things are his intended definition, none of them give him any attributes or power or control. All of these things are usurped by the playful mind imagining him. He is nonsentient, nonpotentent, non temporal...nonexistent.
To say that hallucinations aren't real is folly.
Then in that case, hallucinate a suitcase of money and try to spend it.
You just don't want to admit that I have a point.
Your right, I don't want to admit it. Because YOU DON'T.
And I'm not going to leap frog all over the site for a debate we've already had before.
I don't agree that he is just a psychological phenominon. He is also a social phenominon, and an error of attribution among other things.
Yeah go ahead and tell me about this psycho-social phenomenon like it doesn't exist. If you want to leave your internal contradiction undisturbed, so be it.
But none of these things are his intended definition
Intended by whom?
none of them give him any attributes or power or control.
Him? Don't you think god is better described as an "it"? JUST MAYBE those attributes are the true seat of god's power.
All of these things are usurped by the playful mind imagining him.
Is god imagined by only one mind? Do you think god created us or did we create god? Without having a reasonable understanding of "god" (whatever god is) I submit that you can not give a reasonable answer.
He is nonsentient, nonpotentent, non temporal...nonexistent.
In order for any of these first three observations to have merit, god must exist in some form.
Then in that case, hallucinate a suitcase of money and try to spend it.
Funny you should bring up money. Something that has value only because a significant number of people ascribe value to it. Hallucinations are mental misrepresentations. That's what they really are.
Your right, I don't want to admit it. Because YOU DON'T.
I already got you to admit that god is not only a psychological phenomenon, but something more. So you have admitted my point, and taken the next step all on your own. Congratulations. I don't need you to explicitly admit defeat.
And I'm not going to leap frog all over the site for a debate we've already had before.
Well don't. I am satisfied that I have shown the error in your thinking well enough right here.
If I was headed where atheists are headed ... I'd be depressed too .... eat / drink and be "merry" atheists ... for tomorrow you face an eternal judgement ...... http://www.gty.org/MediaPlayer/sermons/66-77 ... enjoy
"If I was headed where atheists are headed ... I'd be depressed too"
Only if you believed it to be true. If you had no reason to believe a visit to Hell was likely to be on a future itinerary, I doubt it would trouble you much.
A depressed atheist is probably more troubled by ostracization than by the ramifications a mythological realm may or may not hold.
Highly religious/spiritual people think in very different ways from non-spiritual folk. This has been demonstrated in numerous studies. The religious mindset can be described as more intuitive and feeling while the non-religious are more likely to favor rationalism and logic. There are exceptions, so my premise isn't meant to be taken as true for ALL religious and non-religious folk, just a significant majority.
Now, I may have my own opinions about which way of thinking is better, however that's not my point here.
The reason is because depression is a very personal and diverse disease. If you want to really help someone with depression, you need to able to understand their thought processes and explain things in a way that easily makes sense to them. Also, since the two approaches are so different, its easy to unwittingly set off the depressed person's defenses, and then they may not even let you try to help them again.
I, being a rationalist and pretty knowledgeable about the science behind depression, look at it as a physical disease. I know that what is happening to me is an imbalance of chemicals, and I know that when those chemical reserves are depleted, there are certain things I either cannot or will not do.
But I've found that my approach does not appear to make sense to the religious people that attempt to offer me support. And their answers don't make sense to me. Their answer are intuitive. Things you can't describe how to do, but just do. Like "choose to be happy", "don't dwell in the dark stuff". These answers are well meaning, but if these were things I could do naturally, I would have done it by now.
On the other hand, if I try offer advice to a highly religious person, I might come off as cold or dismissive. They probably need to be appealed to in a more emotional, intuitive way then I can provide. The probably want to hear about what they can do for their soul. And I can't answer that because I don't believe in souls.
So for all concerned, I think atheists are going to have better luck helping depressed atheists, and Spiritual people are better off hand depressed spiritual people.
non-religious are more likely to favor rationalism and logic.
If they were rational they would believe that the Earth is 6,000 years old and was created in 6 literal days as the Bible says. Also, we know the bible is true based on 2 Timothy 3:16
The only way there aren't contradictions is if we assume that some portions of the Bible are not inspired by God and are just the recollection of the people at the time. Otherwise, one of the following must be true: God gave different information about what happened to different authors intentionally, God doesn't remember what actually happened and gave what He thought was correct information, or God didn't actually know what happened and gave random information.
I think this is a case where you misinterpret some kind of enemy. It isn't anything to do with thinking each other is wrong. If someone, anyone, came to you personally and said they were depressed, what would you say to comfort them? I think you would be a good Christian to ask because I think you would try to help.
I think people assume God would be brought up as a way to be happier.
I don't see why atheists can't seek help from religious people.. Sure religious people believe atheists are going to Hell, but that doesn't matter. Their problem doesn't have to be your religion vs. theirs. This is really silly mainly because people can't accept other people as they are. This is practically like whites hating black or any race hating any other race because they are different. Whether there be a Hell or Heaven or there being no existence, there is no point in not helping someone because of their religious perspective. If a religious person were depressed and an atheist were to reject helping that religious person, the religious person would only call them selfish and probably an arrogant atheists. That's how atheists feel if they are rejected the help they desire to rid their depression.
I brought this all up as a depressed person who has talked extensively with atheists, theists and medical/psychiatric professionals on the subject. I have sought out comfort from a number of religious individuals from multiple religions and have invariably found the conversations to be less than helpful. I believe the reason for this has to do with a) a massive difference in perspective and b) the belief in souls.
For the remainder of my response I am going to repost one of my responses above, simply because it covers all my points succinctly and adequately:
Highly religious/spiritual people think in very different ways from non-spiritual folk. This has been demonstrated in numerous studies. The religious mindset can be described as more intuitive and feeling while the non-religious are more likely to favor rationalism and logic. There are exceptions, so my premise isn't meant to be taken as true for ALL religious and non-religious folk, just a significant majority.
Now, I may have my own opinions about which way of thinking is better, however that's not my point here.
The reason is because depression is a very personal and diverse disease. If you want to really help someone with depression, you need to able to understand their thought processes and explain things in a way that easily makes sense to them. Also, since the two approaches are so different, its easy to unwittingly set off the depressed person's defenses, and then they may not even let you try to help them again.
I, being a rationalist and pretty knowledgeable about the science behind depression, look at it as a physical disease. I know that what is happening to me is an imbalance of chemicals, and I know that when those chemical reserves are depleted, there are certain things I either cannot or will not do.
But I've found that my approach does not appear to make sense to the religious people that attempt to offer me support. And their answers don't make sense to me. Their answer are intuitive. Things you can't describe how to do, but just do. Like "choose to be happy", "don't dwell in the dark stuff". These answers are well meaning, but if these were things I could do naturally, I would have done it by now.
On the other hand, if I try offer advice to a highly religious person, I might come off as cold or dismissive. They probably need to be appealed to in a more emotional, intuitive way then I can provide. The probably want to hear about what they can do for their soul. And I can't answer that because I don't believe in souls.
So for all concerned, I think atheists are going to have better luck helping depressed atheists, and Spiritual people are better off hand depressed spiritual people.
I brought this all up as a depressed person who has talked extensively with atheists, theists and medical/psychiatric professionals on the subject.
Just a hopeful thought. Have you tried finding someone who needs help even more that you do? The positive feedback from helping someone even with a "random act of kindness" can be instantly gratifying, ego building, and fun.
Have you tried finding someone who needs help even more that you do?
Its certainly happened. I'm always open to try using my experiences and perspectives to ease the suffering of others with mental disorders and instabilities. And yes, it does help me too...usually. Sometimes, ganging up with other such people can be a disaster waiting to happen, as several of my past relationships have demonstrated.
Assume somebody comes to you and asks for help regarding their depression.
What kinds of advice are you likely to give them? What sort of assumptions might you make about them or their illness, if any? What would you think is their best bet?
Conversely: If YOU were suffering from depression, what do you think would be some of the best advice you could receive? What would help you keep your chin up? Etc.
That would depend a whole lot on circumstances. There are a lot of situations in life where the bible can offer some guidance, but that also depends on how spiritual the person is. On the other hand, I am neither a religious leader or a psychologist. If they are going through something I can't understand I would have to recommend they seek help elsewhere.
To see my basic reasoning for this (which is partially based on my personal experience), please see my response to Srom above.
If you have more specific observations/questions, feel free to bring them up. Also understand I don't consider this universal. SOME spiritualists might be perfectly fine for the non-spiritual and vice versa, but on my own experience that is very rare.
I don't totally agree with you, but I misunderstood what you meant in the body of the debate. I assumed by "depressed atheists" you were just calling all atheists depressed in some way, not an actual depressed person.
Yes, a typical atheist sees the world differently than a Christian, but Biblical advice is still valid in my opinion. Depression can be a chemical imbalance, but the Christian message properly communicated can be the most uplifting thing in the world.
Yes, a typical atheist sees the world differently than a Christian, but Biblical advice is still valid in my opinion.
It doesn't need to be valid in your opinion, it needs to be valid in their opinion or you're both wasting your time.
I do not believe in the supernatural. If your advice involves praying, souls, afterlife, "spirit" or such things, I don't believe it is viable advice. If I don't believe in it, it won't uplift me. And I will recognize when the person I'm talking with can't help but give such advice and not know any other way. I'll be polite and let them think they did some good. But the truth is, they just lifted their own mood, not mine.
Also, all heavily religious and spiritual people I have spoken with about depression seem unwilling to accept that we are basically programmed machines, and that errors in our brains can make some things impossible for us. These people insist that all people choose their emotional state at all times. And a person who cannot recognize how false that is will not be a person who can give me useful advice or support.
While I think that there could absolutely be negative consequenses of athiests talking to religious people, I also think there are many positive consequenses. In life it is necessary to take the risk in order to obtain new information and knowledge from other people. I am a Wiccan and personally, I enjoy talking to people who are Athiests, Christians, Muslims, or whomever is willing to converse in a civil manner with an open mind. No one should be excluded from a conversation or discussion based on their religious views. In fact, I believe that the conversation becomes much more interesting when there are many participants with different views. It provides new perspectives and learning opportunities.