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Debate Info

65
49
Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping NO, Still Dreaming Up Argument
Debate Score:114
Arguments:121
Total Votes:119
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 Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping (57)
 
 NO, Still Dreaming Up Argument (42)

Debate Creator

KNHav(1957) pic



Did Atheists like Slapshot loose Evidence of God Debate?

Where are the sound arguments against God? 
Must be that God Wins, afterall!


Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping

Side Score: 65
VS.

NO, Still Dreaming Up Argument

Side Score: 49
4 points

Gospels are eye witness accounts and actual biography.

Most historians confirm this.

The question for the skeptic really lies in the belief of Resurection and other miracles.

But as a Biography, that isn't disputable by any reasonable argument.

And there also has been forensic analysis done that would make the 4 gospels written collaborating the detailed stories impossible.

If you take 2 executives, brainy people of modern day, and they set out a conspiracy, (without luxury of government coverups - as in Hillary) But just executives frauding people, and caught and under investigation, a series of questions would detail inconsistencies that are indications of lies in testimony.

So just 2 people in short term with details of 1 thread of events would likely unravel.

And that's not the case with the 4 gospels, a forensic would confirm it, many have. 1 in particular has, and he started as a passionate atheist, and after months of review determined these were true eyewitness accounts.

Here is a quick clips from an atheist turned Christian through investigation.

https://youtu.be/QsUBwTh0VX0

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Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
Cartman(18192) Disputed
2 points

Gospels are eye witness accounts and actual biography.

Written decades after the person who they were about died.

Most historians confirm this.

That isn't true.

But as a Biography, that isn't disputable by any reasonable argument.

You ignoring the reasonable arguments don't make them unreasonable.

And there also has been forensic analysis done that would make the 4 gospels written collaborating the detailed stories impossible.

No way this is true.

If you take 2 executives, brainy people of modern day, and they set out a conspiracy, (without luxury of government coverups - as in Hillary) But just executives frauding people, and caught and under investigation, a series of questions would detail inconsistencies that are indications of lies in testimony.

There are inconsistencies in the Bible. You just claim they are ok because it is a collection of accounts.

So just 2 people in short term with details of 1 thread of events would likely unravel.

Like the Bible.

And that's not the case with the 4 gospels, a forensic would confirm it, many have.

False.

1 in particular has, and he started as a passionate atheist, and after months of review determined these were true eyewitness accounts.

Here is a quick clips from an atheist turned Christian through investigation.

That guy has been thoroughly disputed since he completely ignores many possible scenarios and treats the Bible as the only evidence we can use for that time period.

Side: NO, Still Dreaming Up Argument
KNHav(1957) Disputed
2 points

Please show your evidence of disputes toward the guy I posted on the video.

Statements like this dont count without justifying it with actual support! Its not so because you say it is.

So please show truth through facts and support of those facts!

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
SlapShot(2608) Disputed
2 points

Gospels are eye witness accounts and actual biography.

Most historians confirm this.

Wrong right off the bat. And also guilty of what in debate circles is called Cherry Picking. Are you gonna be like this all the time? I hope not. If so you will prove to be so biased and/or deluded in your supertsitious beliefs so as to not merit my time.

Anyway....No..."most historians" do NOT confirm the gospels are eye witness accounts. My Lord...is it really possible that you cannot know that the vast majority of biblical scholar now agree that NONE OF THE GOSPEL WRITER KNEW JESUS?

Wow. Listen.....Mark was the first gospel written, but the bible compilers put Matt first, due to reasons we will not go into here. So, Mark, the earliest gospel, was not written till Jesus had been dead for a good 25 years.

Next we have Matt...written about 35 years after JC died.

Then comes Luke...not penned until a good 40 years had passed since JC was killed! And finally, John was not written until around 95-100 AD! Wow! Almost 75 years since Jesus' death. There is even dispute among bible scholars nowadays that those men were even the REAL authors! The gospels could have been written by scribes using their mentors' names.

For example, John's Gospel was certainly not the "beloved disciple John" from the days of JC's ministry. That John was long dead by 100 AD.

The question for the skeptic really lies in the belief of Resurection and other miracles.

But as a Biography, that isn't disputable by any reasonable argument.

Of course we doubt the Resurrection. Any sane and logical person doubts that three-days-dead Jewish carpenters can rise from the dead. There has never been a recorded instance of somebody doing this. And all of your kind have never in the 2000 years since JC provided us with one tiny shred of proof or even evidence of him rising from the dead. Except fo your tired and worn and silly, "It's true cuz my bible tells me so!"

And there also has been forensic analysis done that would make the 4 gospels written collaborating the detailed stories impossible.

What does this even mean? LOL. I don't understand whay you're claiming. Sounds like yo are saying forensic analysis has been done that proves it is impossible for the gospel stories to be true.

In that case, I agree!

Anyway, I read the book you linked by that Wallace dude. Did you read it? Be honest. Or did you just find the link. I doubt you did read it. You don't seem the type to want to research ANYthing. As in the "midrash" definition I asked you to look up.

So, yeah. I rewad his book and was totally undwerwhlemed. Nothing new was presented at all. It was just another Christian apologetic. With no real evidence: just a lot of speculation.

Wallace claims that if we don't take the Bible seriously on the account that it was written late and has errors, then we must throw out most ancient history accounts. This is completely fallacious.

But see? Historians do in fact treat the Bible like other histories. Huge swaths of "historical" narratives are thrown out by scholars because they contain miracle accounts, dubious accounts of battles and prodigies, and late additions by copyists. For this reason historians try to sort out what is and is not historical. This process is called textual criticism, and has been applied to our ancient texts to great effect.

For example, historians accept that Augustus Caesar existed, but not that he was the son of a god. Similarly, historians accept that Jesus existed (and they do), but not that he was the son of a god.

The treatment is exactly the same! The difference is that Wallace wants us to take the miracle accounts of the Bible seriously.

How would history look if we did this with the other books?

At any rate, Wallace asks that we that we throw away our suspicion of miracles and really consider the evidence for the Bible's miraculous accounts. I really do wonder if he applies the same logic to other miracles. Has he considered the evidence for the inspiration of Joseph Smith's golden plates, Muhammad's ride on the flying donkey, or the miracles performed daily by faith healers?

LOL

Side: NO, Still Dreaming Up Argument
KNHav(1957) Disputed
2 points

You decided to come out, wow.

Please detail "cherry picking"

No generalizations!

I don't need to go further your argument fails 1st paragraph.

This is an opinion. Give factual support!

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
KNHav(1957) Disputed
2 points

Your 1st point innaccurate: parts of disagreement are the miracles, as I said. But if evidence shows gospels historical, and Biblical intrusion by God is shown, and is historically accurate, and there is evidence of God designing our history ahead as written, then miracles are possible also, and likely probable, since pre-written history is also super natural, and some even basic prophesies show miracle input from Divinity, such as Joseph going from Slave to Honored above all others in Ancient Egypt. As seen by a tomb found that indicates likely to be Joseph.

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The gospels have a high degree of authenticity compared to other artifacts and ancient writings.

And it being 25 years from when they were with Jesus?

Really?? So how many biographies do you know written in real time???

The historical reliability of the Gospels refers to the reliability and historic character of the four New Testament gospels as historical documents. Although some claim that all four canonical gospels meet the five criteria for historical reliability,others say that little in the gospels is considered to be historically reliable.

Almost all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, but scholars differ on the historicity of specific episodes described in the Biblical accounts of Jesus, and the only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate. Elements whose historical authenticity is disputed include the two accounts of the Nativity of Jesus, the miraculous events including the resurrection, and certain details about the crucifixion.

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical reliabilityoftheGospels

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
KNHav(1957) Disputed
2 points

Slapshot - Wow. Listen.....Mark was the first gospel written, but the bible compilers put Matt first, due to reasons we will not go into here. So, Mark, the earliest gospel, was not written till Jesus had been dead for a good 25 years.

Next we have Matt...written about 35 years after JC died.

Then comes Luke...not penned until a good 40 years had passed since JC was killed! And finally, John was not written until around 95-100 AD! Wow! Almost 75 years since Jesus' death. There is even dispute among bible scholars nowadays that those men were even the REAL authors! The gospels could have been written by scribes using their mentors' names.

For example, John's Gospel was certainly not the "beloved disciple John" from the days of JC's ministry. That John was long dead by 100 AD.

WOW! 25 years from when they were with Jesus?

Really?? So how many biographies do you know written in real time???

Empty argument alert on Slapshot!

Here is a great scientist, apply the same thought please!

Today we do not know where Archimedes’ tomb is – it has been lost, probably for ever.

Much of his work has also been lost for ever, but what we know of it leaves us in awe of his achievements from so long ago.This book is also the unique source for Archimedes' treatise On Floating Bodies in the original Greek.

The Archimedes Palimpsest, as this book is called, has true claims to greatness: it is the earliest surviving Archimedes manuscript by about 400 years; it is the most important source for the diagrams that Archimedes drew in the sand in Syracuse, in the third century B.C.

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It is by far the most important evidence we have for the greatness of Archimedes. And Archimedes was a very great man.

.

Paleography, or the study of ancient texts, can allow us to approximately date when manuscripts were written. The Archimedes manuscript was probably written in the second half of the tenth century. It was almost certainly written at Constantinople, for the simple reason that there is no other place that we know of where ancient mathematics was systematically studied and copied.

Constantinople was the one place with a continued tradition of copying and preserving ancient texts from antiquity through the Middle Ages.

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
KNHav(1957) Disputed
2 points

What does this even mean? LOL. I don't understand whay you're claiming. Sounds like yo are saying forensic analysis has been done that proves it is impossible for the gospel stories to be true. In that case, I agree!

Anyway, I read the book you linked by that Wallace dude. Did you read it? Be honest. Or did you just find the link.

.

Obviously not, my wording leaves these items for open debate with me,the context is confirming historical factors only, let's establish that, then discuss miracles. My point is to get away from generalizations that occupy too much space I'm arguments of nonsense!

No I listened to several of his seminars though, they are on

you tube, several of them if you'd like.

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
KNHav(1957) Disputed
1 point

Re: Old Testament evidence

http://patternsofevidence.com/

Here is a quick clips from an atheist turned Christian through investigation.

https://youtu.be/QsUBwTh0VX0

.

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
KNHav(1957) Disputed
1 point

Slapshot - Anyway....No..."most historians" do NOT confirm the gospels are eye witness accounts. My Lord...is it really possible that you cannot know that the vast majority of biblical scholar now agree that NONE OF THE GOSPEL WRITER KNEW JESUS?

Support your claims :

You say - Most historians say they are not eyewitness accounts

" the vast majority of biblical scholar now agree that NONE OF THE GOSPEL WRITER KNEW JESUS?:

Please show this

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
KNHav(1957) Disputed
1 point

Slapshot "of course we doubt the Resurrection. Any sane and logical person doubts that three-days-dead Jewish carpenters can rise from the dead. There has never been a recorded instance of somebody doing this. And all of your kind have never in the 2000 years since JC provided us with one tiny shred of proof or even evidence of him rising from the dead. Except fo your tired and worn and silly, "It's true cuz my bible tells me so!"

Evidence when viewed goes beyond reasonable doubt!

Here is some evidence that supports an affirmative verdict regarding many Biblical facts, including the Resurection:

1 - The Prophetic Words, and the Biblical Directions of Prophesy, and the Plan, the ultimate bottom line action and goals of Biblical content and Prophesy.

2 - Because Biblical History is credible it is a source in support of evidence.

3 - Because Biblical Prophesy is credible in its fulfillments it is an even greater source in support of evidence, especially since prophesy is layered, with many separate prophesies having to also come true for one to come true! - Even greater than knitting cells together in evolution!

4 - Because eye witness testimony, even outside of the Bible, other documents, Greek and Roman secular offer details confirming the dynamics of Christianity and Persecutions and Martyrdom.

5 - The accounts are not contradictions, (as though any were lying) the various times and places of writings actually are a confirmation of reliability, people who lie have fuzzy memories in a week, even with practice and easy communications of our day, lies unravel because even the untrained eye can pick out lies, but that's not the case with the four gospels, they confirm accidentally each other's facts, that show true eyewitness independent works, with different perspectives of the same exact event, as you know since you "read the book" the private investigated discusses this.

6 - The degree of insistence on the testimonies of Christians, and it's growth beyond their group, location, and generation. In comparison Muslims were militant from the start, attracting like violent individuals. It would not have the same magnet effect as peaceful Christians fed to lions. One would excell in dominance, like cell selection, the other would be eliminated as passive cells are dominated.

7 - The Prophetic Words spoken of concerning the rejection by its "mother religion" and the Prophetic Words stating as Messiah would be rejected, All Nations would hear an exclusive religion, rejected by its originator and accepted world wide!

8 - 300 prophesies fulfilled in just the one person Jesus

9 - Martyrdom, the ferverency and dedication, they most all went courageously against horrible opposition, and most ultimately died for it. And not in a group drinking poison like Jim Jones, Christians often died or were imprisoned alone and often died gruesome deaths

10 - Paul a Jew of Jews, happily killing Christians saw what must have been a hologram! Jesus the Risen Lord knocked him off a horse and blinded him, then sent him to talk to his disciples.

Picture this, Saul/Paul had just led a crowd in Stephen's stoning, Saul was unmoved by it, it was something he was gladly a part of. All the Christians knew of Saul, and he scared of them, they feared for their lives.

Jesus knocks Saul off of a horse, and disarms him by making him temporarily blind. Probably so the Christians wouldn't fear him when he pulled up on his horse. Jesus made him disabled in killing them, so he couldn't harm them.

Jesus sends Saul to get disciples that just saw him murder their friend and brother, Stephen! Now he is there to be saved, healed and filled with the Spirit.

Paul goes on to lead the way like a work horse bringing the message of Jesus the Risen Christ to the Gentiles. Saul Jew of Jews - takes on a new name, born again, and brought the gospel out to the Gentiles.

So these are 10 pieces of evidence I have and consider as evidence "beyond a reasonable doubt"

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
KNHav(1957) Disputed
1 point

Slapshot "You don't seem the type to want to research ANYthing. As in the "midrash" definition I asked you to look up."

This is an empty accusation.

Slapshot "as in the "midrash" definition I asked you to look up.

I already answered this! It is not a change to original Biblical text, it's a method of interpreting and applying to modern day.

So why is this big word of yours at all relevant to Bible history and Prophesy?

So Catholics interpret it in their way, and the Baptist do their way. And people who explain the Bible away and then have little truth left, these would not be people or religion that I would credit any merit to.

There are Jewish people and Christians alike who spiritualize the stories and its just a nice story, that's not true faith, so why is it relevant to me or my discussion?

Re: Midrash - is commonly defined as the process of interpretation by which the rabbis filled in "gaps" found in the Torah. It is a literature that seeks to ask the questions that lie on the tips of our tongues, and to answer them even before we have posed them.

Midrash responds to contemporary problems and crafts new stories, making connections between new Jewish realities and the unchanging biblical textHere are a few ways to add to your big word.

The word "hermeneutics" refers to the art and science of interpreting written texts. Within Christianity, the term generally refers to methods of interpreting the Bible

The most consistent use of the method of Bible study known as the Historical - Grammatical - Lexical Method called the Contextual/Textual method began in Antioch, Syria, in the third century AD in reaction to the Allegorical Method, which had developed several hundred years earlier in Alexandria, Egypt.

The rabbis’ interpretation is characterized by a focus on “how to,” especially in relation to the Law of Moses.

Philo, although using some of the same idiosyncrasies of grammar and spelling, found hidden meanings in the text as it related to Platonism.

I think God uses many of these, but the Spirit is the Bible Interpreter not man, As told in Old and New Testament!

And Jesus said so too!

.

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
KNHav(1957) Disputed
1 point

Wallace claims that if we don't take the Bible seriously on the account that it was written late and has errors, then we must throw out most ancient history accounts. This is completely fallacious.

Here are biographies of great scientist.

The text of the Gospels is much more documented in accuracy.

The Bible people were documenting more than any group of people. The Jews had specific people that's all they did.

And to confirm accuracy they would have checkers.

Making sure every letter was in the same place on the page.

But other widely accepted historical documents can be 1000 years from the originator, without a question, but the Bible, they don't want that proven. It's pretty ridiculous.

Like this famous scientist as example -

Today we do not know where Archimedes’ tomb is – it has been lost, probably for ever.

Much of his work has also been lost for ever, but what we know of it leaves us in awe of his achievements from so long ago.

This book is also the unique source for Archimedes' treatise On Floating Bodies in the original Greek.

The Archimedes Palimpsest, as this book is called, has true claims to greatness: it is the earliest surviving Archimedes manuscript by about 400 years; it is the most important source for the diagrams that Archimedes drew in the sand in Syracuse, in the third century B.C.

.

It is by far the most important evidence we have for the greatness of Archimedes. And Archimedes was a very great man.

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Paleography, or the study of ancient texts, can allow us to approximately date when manuscripts were written.

(^ Except Biblical, because miracles exist, they dismiss it and it's history, are historians now in kindergarten ? Do they dismiss this and that science theory because they don't understand it?Of course not, it's selective by atheists, and that is deplorable!^)

The Archimedes manuscript was probably written in the second half of the tenth century.

It was almost certainly written at Constantinople, for the simple reason that there is no other place that we know of where ancient mathematics was systematically studied and copied.

Constantinople was the one place with a continued tradition of copying and preserving ancient texts from antiquity through the Middle Ages.

Double standard, you guys hate facts you know you will never be able to explain by science, even as basic as Prophesy as seen in The Bible as pre-written history.

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
KNHav(1957) Disputed
1 point

Slapshot - Historians do in fact treat the Bible like other histories. Huge swaths of "historical" narratives are thrown out by scholars because they contain miracle accounts, dubious accounts of battles and prodigies, and late additions by copyists.

Its not thrown out by historians! The contrary its accepted by MOST historians, but thrown out by atheists!

There is a skepticism climate in these fields to begin with, and in it there are many passionate atheists.

These individuals make the fields of study a climate that is extremely difficult to present archeological finds as seen in "Patterns of Evidence."

Exodus time frame is presented in the wrong time period, and has been inaccurate, with atheists gladly trumpeting their failed incompetancies, boasting in failures, they gladly stand by their inaccuracies!

Now every find was made in the digs in the correct time period, and corrected locations, they were not finding anything because Israel moved out of Egypt about 200 years earlier! And not Pharoah Rameses! But no they don't want to fix that,

Where is the integrity of the field, why aren't they happy and excited about the findings, shouldn't they be jumping up and down and making adjustments fitting the puzzle together?

Because it authenticates the Bible as the most reliable source of ancient history! And oh no, we can't have that now, can we?!?!?

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
KNHav(1957) Disputed
1 point

Watch this documentary, think its on Netflix, maybe it will give you ammunition to blow me away!

Documentary Patterns of Evidence for evidence showing accuracy of the Exodus Biblical account.

http://patternsofevidence.com/

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
KNHav(1957) Disputed
1 point

Atheists near death experience:

https://youtu.be/fzvjKubI-04

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
KNHav(1957) Disputed
1 point

Other sources confirm Bible - New Testament

I think there is a difference between Christianity and other religions, in that

persecution was prophesied, and so also was the growth of Christianity. They were both prophesied by Jesus on several occasions, and they both came true in tandem.

2 The 4 Gospels are detailed individually written accounts that do not show any discrepancies that would indicate collusion .

by historians, and other investigative studies.

3 There are other documents confirm the texts. Some are hostile sources. But we can see the dynamics of the time period

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Hostile Non-Biblical Pagan Accounts

There are a number of ancient classical accounts of Jesus from pagan, non-Christian sources. These accounts are generally hostile to Christianity; some ancient authors denied the miraculous nature of Jesus and the events surrounding His life:

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Thallus (52AD)

Thallus is perhaps the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus and he is so ancient his writings don’t even exist anymore. But Julius Africanus, writing around 221AD does quote Thallus who previously tried to explain away the darkness occurring at Jesus’ crucifixion:

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“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.” (Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)

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If only more of Thallus’ record could be found, we might find more confirmation of Jesus’ crucifixion. But there are some things we can conclude from this account: Jesus lived, He was crucified, and there was an earthquake and darkness at the point of His crucifixion.

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Tacitus (56-120AD)

Cornelius Tacitus was known for his analysis and examination of historical documents and is among the most trusted of ancient historians. He was a senator under Emperor Vespasian and was also proconsul of Asia. In his “Annals’ of 116AD, he describes Emperor Nero’s response to the great fire in Rome and Nero’s claim that the Christians were to blame:

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“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.”

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In this account, Tacitus confirms several historical elements of the Biblical narrative: Jesus lived in Judea, was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and had followers who were persecuted for their faith in Christ.

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Mara Bar-Serapion (70AD)

Sometime after 70AD, a Syrian philosopher named Mara Bar-Serapion, writing to encourage his son, compared the life and persecution of Jesus with that of other philosophers who were persecuted for their ideas. The fact Jesus is known to be a real person with this kind of influence is important. Mara Bar-Serapion refers to Jesus as the “Wise King”:

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“What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?…After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men…The wise king…Lived on in the teachings he enacted.”

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From this account, we can add to our understanding of Jesus: He was a wise and influential man who died for His beliefs. The Jewish leadership was somehow responsible for Jesus’ death. Jesus’ followers adopted His beliefs and lived their lives accordingly.

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Phlegon (80-140AD)

In a manner similar to Thallus, Julius Africanus also mentions a historian named Phlegon who wrote a chronicle of history around 140AD. In this history, Phlegon also mentions the darkness surrounding the crucifixion in an effort to explain it:

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“Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth to the ninth hour.” (Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)

Phlegon is also mentioned by Origen (an early church theologian and scholar, born in Alexandria):

“Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events . . . but also testified that the result corresponded to His predictions.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 14)

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“And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place … ” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 33)

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“Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 59)

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From these accounts, we can add something to our understanding: Jesus had the ability to accurately predict the future, was crucified under the reign of Tiberius Caesar and demonstrated His wounds after he was resurrected.

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Pliny the Younger (61-113AD)

Early Christians were also described in early, non-Christian history. Pliny the Younger, in a letter to the Roman emperor Trajan, describes the lifestyles of early Christians:

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“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.”

.

This early description of the first Christians documents several facts: the first Christians believed Jesus was GOD, the first Christians upheld a high moral code, and these early followers met regularly to worship Jesus.

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Suetonius (69-140AD)

Suetonius was a Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. His writings about Christians describe their treatment under the Emperor Claudius (41-54AD):

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“Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus (Christ), he (Claudius) expelled them from the city (Rome).” (Life of Claudius, 25:4)

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This expulsion took place in 49AD, and in another work, Suetonius wrote about the fire which destroyed Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians for this fire and he punished Christians severely as a result:

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“Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief.” (Lives of the Caesars, 26.2)

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There is much we can learn from Suetonius as it is related to the life of early Christians. From this account, we know Jesus had an immediate impact on His followers: They were committed to their belief Jesus was God and withstood the torment and punishment of the Roman Empire. Jesus had a curious and immediate impact on His followers, empowering them to die courageously for what they knew to be true.

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Lucian of Samosata: (115-200 A.D.)

Lucian was a Greek satirist who spoke sarcastically of Christ and Christians, but in the process, he did affirm they were real people and never referred to them as fictional characters:

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“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.” (Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13)

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From this account we can add to our description of Jesus: He taught about repentance and about the family of God. These teachings were quickly adopted by Jesus’ followers and exhibited to the world around them.

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Celsus (175AD)

This is the last hostile, non-Christian account we will examine (although there are many other later accounts in history). Celsus was quite antagonistic to the claims of the Gospels, but in his criticism he unknowingly affirmed and reinforced the Biblical authors and their content. His writing is extensive and he alludes to 80 different Biblical quotes, confirming their early appearance in history. In addition, he admits the miracles of Jesus were generally believed in the early 2nd century:

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“Jesus had come from a village in Judea, and was the son of a poor Jewess who gained her living by the work of her own hands. His mother had been turned out of doors by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, on being convicted of adultery [with a soldier named Panthéra (i.32)]. Being thus driven away by her husband, and wandering about in disgrace, she gave birth to Jesus, a bastard. Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god.”

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Celsus admits Jesus was reportedly born of a virgin, but then argues this could supernatural account could not be possible and offers the idea Jesus was the illegitimate son of a man named Panthera (an idea borrowed from Jews who opposed Jesus at the time). But in writing this account, Celsus does confirm several important claims: Jesus had an earthly father who was a carpenter, possessed unusual magical powers and claimed to be God.

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Hostile Non-Biblical Jewish Accounts

In addition to classical pagan sources chronicling the life of Jesus and His followers, there are also a number of ancient hostile Jewish sources describing Jesus. These are written by Jewish theologians, historians and leaders who were definitely not sympathetic to the Christian cause. Their writings are often very harsh, critical and even demeaning to Jesus. But there is still much these writings confirm:

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Josephus (37-101AD)

In more detail than any other non-biblical historian, Josephus writes about Jesus in his “the Antiquities of the Jews” in 93AD. Josephus was born just four years after the crucifixion. He was a consultant for Jewish rabbis at an early age, became a Galilean military commander by the age of sixteen, and he was an eyewitness to much of what he recorded in the first century A.D. Under the rule of Roman emperor Vespasian, Josephus was allowed to write a history of the Jews. This history includes three passages about Christians, one in which he describes the death of John the Baptist, one in which he mentions the execution of James (and describes him as the brother of Jesus the Christ), and a final passage which describes Jesus as a wise man and the messiah. There is much legitimate controversy about the writing of Josephus, because the first discoveries of his writings are late enough to have been re-written by Christians who were accused of making additions to the text. So to be fair, we’ll examine a scholarly reconstruction stripped of Christian embellishment:

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“Now around this time lived Jesus, a wise man. For he was a worker of amazing deeds and was a teacher of people who gladly accept the truth. He won over both many Jews and many Greeks. Pilate, when he heard him accused by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, (but) those who had first loved him did not cease (doing so). To this day the tribe of Christians named after him has not disappeared” (This neutral reconstruction follows closely the one proposed by John Meier, A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus: The Roots of the Problem and the Person).

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Now there are many other ancient versions of Josephus’ writing which are even more explicit about the nature of Jesus’ miracles, life and his status as the Christ, but let’s take this conservative version and see what we can learn. From this text, we can conclude: Jesus lived in Palestine, was a wise man and a teacher, worked amazing deeds, was accused by the Jews, crucified under Pilate and had followers called Christians.

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Jewish Talmud (400-700AD)

While the earliest Talmudic writings of Jewish Rabbis appear in the 5th century, the tradition of these Rabbinic authors indicates they are faithfully transmitting teachings from the early “Tannaitic” period of the 1st Century BC to the 2nd Century AD. Scholars believe there are a number of Talmudic writings referring to Jesus, and many of these writings are said to use code words to describe Jesus (such as “Balaam” or “Ben Stada” or “a certain one”). But for our purposes we’ll be very conservative and limit our examination to the passages referring to Jesus in a more direct way:

.

“Jesus practiced magic and led Israel astray” (b. Sanhedrin 43a; cf. t. Shabbat 11.15; b. Shabbat 104b)

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“Rabbi Hisda (d. 309) said that Rabbi Jeremiah bar Abba said, ‘What is that which is written, ‘No evil will befall you, nor shall any plague come near your house’? (Psalm 91:10)… ‘No evil will befall you’ (means) that evil dreams and evil thoughts will not tempt you; ‘nor shall any plague come near your house’ (means) that you will not have a son or a disciple who burns his food like Jesus of Nazareth.” (b. Sanhedrin 103a; cf. b. Berakhot 17b)

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“Our rabbis have taught that Jesus had five disciples: Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni and Todah. They brought Matthai to (to trial). He said, ‘Must Matthai be killed? For it is written, ‘When (mathai) shall I come and appear before God?’” (Psalm 92:2) They said to him, “Yes Matthai must be killed, for it is written, ‘When (mathai) he dies his name will perish’” (Psalm 41:5). They brought Nakai. He said to them, “Must Nakai be killed? For it is written, “The innocent (naqi) and the righteous will not slay’” (Exodus 23:7). They said to him, “Yes, Nakai must be kille, for it is written, ‘In secret places he slays the innocent (naqi)’” (Psalm 10:8). (b. Sanhedrin 43a; the passage continues in a similar way for Nezer, Buni and Todah)

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And this, perhaps the most famous of Talmudic passages about Jesus:

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“It was taught: On the day before the Passover they hanged Jesus. A herald went before him for forty days (proclaiming), “He will be stoned, because he practiced magic and enticed Israel to go astray. Let anyone who knows anything in his favor come forward and plead for him.” But nothing was found in his favor, and they hanged him on the day before the Passover. (b. Sanhedrin 43a)

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From just these passages mentioning Jesus by name, we can conclude the following: Jesus had magical powers, led the Jews away from their beliefs, had disciples who were martyred for their faith (one of whom was named Matthai), and was executed on the day before the Passover.

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The Toledot Yeshu (1000AD)

The Toledot Yeshu is a medieval Jewish retelling of the life of Jesus. It is completely anti-Christian, to be sure. There are many versions of these ‘retellings’, and as part of the transmitted oral and written tradition of the Jews, we can presume their original place in antiquity, dating back to the time of Jesus’ first appearance as an influential leader who was drawing Jews away from their faith in the Law. The Toledot Yeshu contains a determined effort to explain away the miracles of Jesus and to deny the virgin birth. In some places, the text is quite vicious, but it does confirm many elements of the New Testament writings. Let’s take a look at a portion of the text (Jesus is called ‘Yehoshua’):

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Above taken from :

http://coldcasechristianity.com/2014/is-there-any-evidence-for-jesus-outside- the-bible/

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Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
Saintnow(3684) Disputed
1 point

historians do not accept that Jesus was the Son of God.............hahahahahha......

Some of them do, Slappy, most of them do not. My history professor believed Jesus is God the Son, I think he counts as a historian.......Western Civ and such.

Bad news for you, if you want to die as an anti-Christ. The story is true, Jesus is God and He is risen from the dead and coming back. You will see Him if you are on earth when He returns, you will be pulled up from Hell to appear before Him in judgement for your words, thoughts and actions if you do not see Him before your time in this ungodly world is over.

You really don't use your noggin very well. If Jesus were not risen from the dead, why in the world would so many Christians refuse to bow to Caesar as a god and refuse to renounce their testimony of either seeing Him themselves alive after the Roman Guards failed in their duty and could not keep the tomb sealed? Why would they refuse to bow to Caesar when it would have kept them from being burned alive or thrown to the lions? He was seen of over five hundred eyewitness at one time, He ate with His disciples, He invited Thomas to put his finger in the nail prints and thrust his hand into the spear hole in the side of His chest........it was because they knew that He was alive that they gave their lives to spread the good news, the gospel, and "historians" who did not believe on Him wrote of the complaints of ungodly rulers saying Christians "turned the world upside down".

So you reject the good news because you think sinful indulgences are better than living. Whoopity doo. The story is true, it has been handed down through the centuries at the cost of the blood of holy martyrs who committed no offense other than to stand firm in confidence of the power of God in Jesus Christ to raise the dead......any coward can be a hater and pretend to be strong....too bad they can't conquer death like Jesus did.

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
KNHav(1957) Disputed
1 point

Slapshot -

Please scientifically explain this record. Or was it just a coincidence that this was a record of the day Jesus died on the cross? The record is not Christian or religious, it is secular.

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Thallus (52AD)

Thallus is perhaps the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus and he is so ancient his writings don’t even exist anymore. But Julius Africanus, writing around 221AD does quote Thallus who previously tried to explain away the darkness occurring at Jesus’ crucifixion:

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“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.” (Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)

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If only more of Thallus’ record could be found, we might find more confirmation of Jesus’ crucifixion. But there are some things we can conclude from this account: Jesus lived, He was crucified, and there was an earthquake and darkness at the point of His crucifixion.

Mark 15

27 They *crucified two robbers with Him, one on His right and one on His left. 28 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And He was numbered with transgressors.”

29 Those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads, and saying, “Ha! You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, 30 save Yourself, and come down from the cross!”

31 In the same way the chief priests also, along with the scribes, were mocking Him among themselves and saying, “He saved others; He cannot save Himself. 32 Let this Christ, the King of Israel, now come down from the cross, so that we may see and believe!” Those who were crucified with Him were also insulting Him.

33 When the sixth hour came, darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour. 34 At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” which is translated, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

35 When some of the bystanders heard it, they began saying, “Behold, He is calling for Elijah.” 36 Someone ran and filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink, saying, “Let us see whether Elijah will come to take Him down.”

37 And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last. 38 And the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. 39 When the centurion, who was standing right in front of Him, saw the way He breathed His last, he said, “Truly this man was the Son of God!”

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
KNHav(1957) Disputed
1 point

Cherry Picker hmm you only pick cherries. Foolish thoughts of a bitter man. Atheism is bitter. Rotten infested fruit is its tree.

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
KNHav(1957) Disputed
1 point

Below the bold section are prophesies I'd like you to skim, I hope you will pull out some of them to discuss, to answer my questions.

Can you tell me about these prophesies, and why you think that these specific prophesies are not applicable to the events we connect them to, and why you feel they are off, or vague, or not applicable.

And if they are not off, why them isn't it impressive to you, please be specific not generalizations?

And if it's not impressive can you show me the common occurrences or support as to why they ar not impressive to you?

Such prophesies must be common if they are not impressive.

Can you show me some, and tell me why or what makes them equal?

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The Persecution of the Jews

The return of the Jews to the Holy Land largely began and continues due to persecution in the nations they have lived under exile:

Ezekiel 11:16-17 - Therefore say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Although I have cast them far off among the Gentiles, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet I shall be a little sanctuary for them in the countries where they have gone."' Therefore say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "I will gather you from the peoples, assemble you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel."'

Ezekiel 34:27-30 - "...They shall be safe in their land; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands

of their yoke and delivered them from the hand of those who enslaved them. And they shall no longer be a prey for the nations, nor shall beasts of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and no one shall make them afraid. I will raise up for them a garden of renown, and they shall no longer be consumed with hunger in the land, nor bear the shame of the Gentiles anymore. Thus they shall know that I, the LORD their God, am with them, and they, the house of Israel, are My people," says the Lord GOD.

Region called "Palestine

Israel and Transjordan

After Great Britain conquered Palestine during World War I,

there were steps made towards pledging support for a Jewish state. However, it wasn't until after the Holocaust (a Jewish "calamity" that many Islamic/Arab groups supported and in some cases perpetuated), and World War II, that there was enough sympathetic support in the world to actually bring about an Israeli state. The British Mandate of Palestine was a proposal for two nations, side-by-side: an Arab nation - Trans-Jordan,

and a Jewish nation - Israel.

The Palestinians and War

UN Partition Plan

Picture source: Wikipedia

Due to conflict with the Arabs, Great Britain handed the issue over to the United Nations, who further partitioned the land, as shown on the map to the left. All of the Arab leaders voted against it.

After Israel declared their independence, the "ancient hatred" of the Arab nations turned into a war to try to prevent the Jewish nation from coming to fruition, so they could take both nations for themselves. Ironically, these same Arab groups are pushing for a similar partition plan to divide Israel today that they initially rejected.

Israel won their war of independence because God was there with them. However, the Bible is clear that future judgment is coming to these Arab nations because of their "ancient hatred" against Israel, their participation against them in the "calamity" (Babylonian conquest, Roman conquest and/or the Holocaust?), and they want the "two nations," Israel and Trans-Jordan for themselves:

Ezekiel 35:5 - "Because you have had an ancient hatred, and have shed the blood of the children of Israel by the power of the sword at the time of their calamity, when their iniquity came to an end."

Ezekiel 35:10-11 - "Because you have said, 'These two nations and these two countries shall be mine, and we will possess them,' although the LORD was there, therefore, as I live," says

the Lord GOD, "I will do according to your anger and according to the envy which you showed in your hatred against them;

and I will make Myself known among them when I judge you."

God also said that He would bless the land that was desolate when His people return from exile. I have seen with my own eyes that the desert in Israel is blooming!

Ezekiel 36:8-11 - But you, O mountains of Israel, you shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to My people Israel, for they are about to come. For indeed I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you shall be tilled and sown. I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt. I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bear young; I will make you inhabited as in former times, and do better for you than at your beginnings. Then you shall know that I am the LORD.

Ancient Land of Edom

Ironically, it was the improvement in the land after the Jews began their return from exile in the 19th century that drew in the Arab people from the surrounding regions. There is evidence that many of these Arabs are descendants of the ancient Edomites, known later in history as the Idumaeans.

During Israel's War of Independence, over 700,000 Arabs who resided in Israel fled. After the war was over, the surrounding Arab countries refused to absorb these refugees into their countries. Instead, the countries of Jordan and Egypt annexed the Gaza Strip and West Bank through negotiations, and forced the Palestinian refugees to live there.

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Israel's War of Independence 1948

These refugees in Israel are known as Palestinians. The passage below in Obadiah accurately describes how the surrounding countries have forced the Palestinian people to live as refugees near the borders of Israel.

These countries have, in effect, been using the Palestinians as pawns to try to divide and destroy Israel, refusing to absorb them into their own countries after Israel won their war of Independence in 1948.

The wording about deception and laying a trap supports the notion that the "tents of Edom" are pawns, or bait in a trap being set for Israel:

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Obadiah 1:6-7 - Oh, how Esau shall be searched out! How his hidden treasures shall be sought after! All the men in your confederacy shall force you to the border; the men at peace

with you shall deceive you and prevail against you. Those who eat your bread shall lay a trap for you. No one is aware of it.

Most of the Arab people who live in and around Israel are Muslim. The Jewish state's existence is a direct threat to their religion and belief in the Koran, which is why they deny Israel's sovereignty. Muslims believe that the Jews lost their right to the land because of their disobedience.

The Koran teaches that Muslims have to recover land that non-Muslims took from them (source). Therefore, they believe Israel has no right to the Holy Land anymore and that it is Allah's will to take it back.

Islam also teaches Muslims to kill Jews and Christians because they are infidels (source).Instead of disbelieving in Islam, they reject Israel being a nation and seek annihilation of the Jews. In doing so, they blaspheme the truth of God's Word:

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Ezekiel 35:12-13 - "...I have heard all your blasphemies which you have spoken against the mountains of Israel, saying, 'They are desolate; they are given to us to consume.' Thus with your mouth you have boasted against Me and multiplied your words against Me; I have heard them."

Ezekiel prophesied that God would take the "ancient heights" from Israel's enemies and give it back to them after their return from exile. These "ancient heights" are the Golan Heights and the mountains in the West Bank:

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Ezekiel 36:1-5 - "And you, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel, and say, 'O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD! Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because the enemy has said of you, 'Aha! The ancient heights have become our possession,'"' therefore prophesy, and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because they made you desolate and swallowed you up on every side, so that you became the possession of the rest of the nations, and you are taken up by the lips of talkers and slandered by the people"- therefore, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD!

Thus says the Lord GOD to the mountains, the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around - therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Surely I have spoken in My burning jealousy against the rest of the nations and against all Edom, who gave My land to themselves as a possession, with wholehearted joy and spiteful minds, in order to plunder its open country."'

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Ezekiel 36:6-7,12 - "Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel, and say to the mountains, the hills, the rivers, and the valleys, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I have spoken in My jealousy and My fury, because you have borne the shame of the nations." Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "I have raised My hand in an oath that surely the nations that are around you shall bear their own shame.... My people Israel; they shall take possession of you, and you shall be their inheritance; no more shall you bereave them of children."

Ezekiel's prophecy found fulfillment in the Six-Day-War in 1967, when Israel took back the Golan Heights and the West Bank:

Territory Won by Israel after

Six-Day War 1967

Territory Won by Israel after Six-Day War 1967

Since the Jews began returning to the land, there has been constant struggle in the Middle East in the form of wars and terrorism. The Islamic world wants to destroy Israel, while the rest of the world wants to bring peace to the region by dividing Israel and Jerusalem. What the world fails to realize is that Islamic ideology will never allow for a peace agreement to last.

Islam's "culture of death," in the form of raising suicide bombers who believe they are doing the will of Allah, make a difficult situation impossible. The reason the United States became involved in the struggle against Islamic fundamentalists is simply because it is an impediment to their destruction of Israel.

As prophesied in the Bible, this region will continue in turmoil until the Messiah returns:

Zechariah 12:2-3 - Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Those who try to divide the land appear as peacemakers. However, they are acting in opposition to God's will, so destruction will come on those who try: And Terrorism - a cup of Trembling to those who lift Israel, pretty wild fulfilment the way I see it!

Ezekiel 36:5-7, 12 - Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Surely I have spoken in My burning jealousy against the rest of the nations and against all Edom, who gave My land to themselves as a possession, with wholehearted joy and spiteful minds, in order to plunder its open country."' "Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel, and say to the mountains, the hills, the rivers, and the valleys, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I have spoken in My jealousy and My fury, because you have borne the shame of the nations." Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "I have raised My hand in an oath that surely the nations that are around you shall bear their own shame.... My people Israel; they shall take possession of you, and you shall be their inheritance; no more shall you bereave them of children."

1 Thessalonians 5:3 - For when they say, "Peace and safety!", then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

The world insists that the answer is to divide tiny Israel, but the Lord says it belongs to Israel. The Arabs want to take all of Israel. But has the Lord been unfair to the Arabs?

Israel and the Arab Countries

Unfulfilled prophecies litter the Old Testament prophets that pronounce future judgment on Israel's immediate neighbors. Judgment is coming in the form of two wars against Israel's neighbors bent on their destruction, who occupy a large area of the land promised to Israel by God.

In the first war, the Palestinian refugees, who are the "tents of Edom" (Psalm 83:6), will form a confederacy with Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria against Israel.

The devastation described on both sides, including the complete destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17), leads to the conclusion that the threat to Israel's existence is such, that they will have no choice but unleash what they call the "Samson Option," taking down their enemies with massive retaliation in the form of nuclear warfare.

The following scriptures describe this "Great Middle East War":

Psalm 83 · Isaiah 17 · Jeremiah 49 · Ezekiel 35-37 · Joel 1 · Amos 1-2 · Obadiah · Zephaniah 2 · Zechariah 9-11

Great Middle East War

Before looking at the second war, note that there are two of Israel's neighbors who are not listed as aggressors in either war: Iraq and Egypt.

While it is true that the Assyrians ruled over Babylon before the Babylonian empire rose, the heart of the Assyrian empire covered northern Syria and western Iraq.

This is important to note, because Assyria is in the Psalm 83 confederacy. I do not believe Iraq as a nation will be an aggressor in that conflict. Iraq is better represented by the heart of the ancient area of Babylon, which is not in view in the parallel passages to Psalm 83. However, the area of Mosul is in western Iraq and is the same area of ancient Nineveh which gets destroyed in the "Great Middle East War."

In recent history, the Kurds have occupied the ancient area of Nineveh. The Kurds have continuously struggled with both Turkey and the rest of Iraq. There have even been proposals made to allow the Kurds to break away and be their own country. If this occurs before the "Great Middle East War," I wouldn't rule out their direct involvement in the Psalm 83 coalition, as politically they could be considered the heart of ancient Assyria along with Syria.

Another possibility is that rebels aligned with the other

Psalm 83 aggressors take over the western part of Iraq before the "Great Middle East War." Interestingly, the terrorist group ISIS has laid claim to most of the territory of ancient Assyria as a result of 2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against

it.https://youtu.be/sEsdySUjffghttp://trackingbibleprophecy.com/israel.phphttp://trackingbibleprophecy.com/israel.php

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
Saintnow(3684) Clarified
1 point

....................................................................................

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
1 point

Thought you needed a fix, you've been good for a couple a days, I think

Atheists near death experience:

https://youtu.be/fzvjKubI-04

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
Saintnow(3684) Clarified
1 point

youtube cancelled that video, you can probably find the same one or a similar one on the man's website.....or elsewhere on youtube.

Keep trying, people might start to think.....but most of these people have serious mental blocks and stopped thinking

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
1 point

Some time before 500 BC, the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26).

He further predicted that the Messiah would be "cut off," killed, and that this event would take place prior to a second destruction of Jerusalem. Abundant documentation shows that these prophecies were perfectly fulfilled in the life (and crucifixion) of Jesus Christ. The decree regarding the restoration of Jerusalem was issued by Persia's King Artaxerxes to the Hebrew priest Ezra in 458 BC, 483 years later the ministry of Jesus Christ began in Galilee.

(Remember that due to calendar changes, the date for the start of Christ's ministry is set by most historians at about AD 26. Also note that from 1 BC to AD 1 is just one year.) Jesus' crucifixion occurred only a few years later, and about four decades later, in AD 70 came the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to the 5th power )

.

http://www.reasons.org/articles/articles/fulfilled-prophecy-evidence-for-the-reliability-of-the-bible

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
Cartman(18192) Disputed
1 point

Some time before 500 BC, the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26).

What? Daniel 9:25-26 talks about weeks. How did you get 483 years from it?

Side: NO, Still Dreaming Up Argument
KNHav(1957) Disputed
1 point

(1) Some time before 500 BC, the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26).

He further predicted that the Messiah would be "cut off," killed, and that this event would take place prior to a second destruction of Jerusalem. Abundant documentation shows that these prophecies were perfectly fulfilled in the life (and crucifixion) of Jesus Christ. The decree regarding the restoration of Jerusalem was issued by Persia's King Artaxerxes to the Hebrew priest Ezra in 458 BC, 483 years later the ministry of Jesus Christ began in Galilee.

(Remember that due to calendar changes, the date for the start of Christ's ministry is set by most historians at about AD 26. Also note that from 1 BC to AD 1 is just one year.) Jesus' crucifixion occurred only a few years later, and about four decades later, in AD 70 came the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to 5th power.)

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
1 point

(4) Some 400 years before crucifixion was invented, both Israel's King David and the prophet Zechariah described the Messiah's death in words that perfectly depict that mode of execution. Further, they said that the body would be pierced and that none of the bones would be broken, contrary to customary procedure in cases of crucifixion (Psalm 22 and 34:20; Zechariah 12:10). Again, historians and New Testament writers confirm the fulfillment: Jesus of Nazareth died on a Roman cross, and his extraordinarily quick death eliminated the need for the usual breaking of bones. A spear was thrust into his side to verify that he was, indeed, dead.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to the 13th power.)

http://www.reasons.org/articles/articles/fulfilled-prophecy-evidence-for-the-reliability-of-the-bible

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
1 point

Guys - debate is a confirmation of facts showing support of your opinion. We can argue day and night "yes it is" and "no it ain't" till we are blue in the face.

It's meaningless if you have no factual basis of truth to show why your opinion is so wonderful!

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
Cartman(18192) Disputed
1 point

You created a debate and only posted meaningless information you got from another website.

Side: NO, Still Dreaming Up Argument
KNHav(1957) Disputed
1 point

Duh! Why didn't they use the Biblical source? Seriously😲

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping

Hey, don't demean tweety birds. Every morning, even in winter, when I open my bedroom curtains the tweety blackbirds are singing waiting for me to feed them good Californian raisins. Nothing but the best. They're worth a 1000 times more than all the embarrassing religious hocus pocus and dreamed up gobbledygook you continually gauche on about. Did you know that you can get free psychiatric treatment for your condition?

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
KNHav(1957) Clarified
1 point

Who is this to, me?

Are you a Protestant that denies Jesus and the Power of God?

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
1 point

Evidence when viewed goes beyond reasonable doubt!

Here is some evidence that supports an affirmative verdict regarding many Biblical facts, including the Resurection:

1 - The Prophetic Words, and the Biblical Directions of Prophesy, and the Plan, the ultimate bottom line action and goals of Biblical content and Prophesy.

2 - Because Biblical History is credible it is a source in support of evidence.

3 - Because Biblical Prophesy is credible in its fulfillments it is an even greater source in support of evidence, especially since prophesy is layered, with many separate prophesies having to ALSO come true for one to come true! - EVEN GREATER THAN KNITTING CELLS TOGETHER IN EVOLUTION!

4 - Because eye witness testimony, even outside of the Bible, other documents, Greek and Roman secular offer details confirming the dynamics of Christianity and Persecutions and Martyrdom.

5 - The accounts are not contradictions, (as though any were lying) the various times and places of writings actually are a confirmation of reliability, people who lie have fuzzy memories in a week, even with practice and easy communications of our day, lies unravel because even the untrained eye can pick out lies, but that's not the case with the four gospels, they confirm accidentally each other's facts, that show true eyewitness independent works, with different perspectives of the same exact event, as you know since you "read the book" the private investigated discusses this.

6 - The degree of insistence on the testimonies of Christians, and it's growth beyond their group, location, and generation. In comparison Muslims were militant from the start, attracting like violent individuals. It would not have the same magnet effect as peaceful Christians fed to lions. One would excell in dominance, like cell selection, the other would be eliminated as passive cells are dominated.

7 - The Prophetic Words spoken of concerning the rejection by its "mother religion" and the Prophetic Words stating as Messiah would be rejected, All Nations would hear an exclusive religion, rejected by its originator and accepted WORLD WIDE!

8 - 300 PROPHESIES fulfilled in just the person Jesus

9 - Martyrdom, the ferverency and dedication, they most all went courageously against horrible opposition, and most ultimately died for it. And not in a group drinking poison like Jim Jones, Christians often died or were imprisoned alone and often died gruesome deaths

10 - Paul a Jew of Jews, happily killing Christians saw what must have been a hologram! Jesus the Risen Lord knocked him off a horse and blinded him, then sent him to talk to his disciples.

Get this picture, Saul/Paul just led Stephen's stoning, unmoved by it! Everyone knows of Saul and are scared of him.

Jesus knocks him off a horse and disarms him so the Christians wouldn't fear him, and so he couldn't harm them. Sends Saul to get saved, healed and filled with the Spirit, and in Paul to the Gentiles - Jew of Jews - brought the gospel out to the Gentiles.

So these are 10 pieces of evidence I have to consider evidence "beyond a reasonable doubt"!!

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
1 point

Slapshot is just another upset Democrat because he hasn't made the money Paul Newman did from the movie Slapshot. I have given that Democrat numerous opportunities to make a post about Muslims and their God but it has yet to do so. Democrats such as Slapshot support Muslims and their faith. Wonder how well Slapshot being an atheist would make it in a Muslim country.

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
1 point

The evidence for God's existence exceeds that of atheist arguments. Though, it would take books and beyond to go through it all.

Side: Yes, JustTweety Birds Chirping
Saintnow(3684) Disputed
1 point

It does not take books and beyond to see God is there. The heavens declare the glory of God. It takes books and beyond to cast doubt on God......and there's never enough to make Him go away.

Side: NO, Still Dreaming Up Argument
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