CreateDebate


Debate Info

Debate Score:7
Arguments:11
Total Votes:7
More Stats

Argument Ratio

side graph
 
  (6)

Debate Creator

Ignoramis(381) pic



Did you know that Satan means adversary?

A lot of the stories that are floating around about Satan and Lucifer don't actually exist in the scriptures. They all are derivatives from a single line in the scriptures. In reality, Satan isn't a name, it is title and doesn't mean bad things. He is actually on God's side.
Add New Argument
2 points

Yes I do. It is from the Hebrew word "hasatan." And it can be found in other Hebrew writings where the "hasatan" was referring to fully mortal and human enemies, like warring tribes such as the Assyrians or Babylonians.

"Lucifer" means "Shining One." Or "light bringer." It's usage for Satan stems from a mis-translation. If I am not mistakes it occurred during the writing of the Septuagint. The original author was speaking of the King of Babylon, and it was misinterpreted to mean Satan or the Devil.

Saintnow(3684) Clarified
0 points

Very good, you obviously know more of the Bible than the framer of this debate, and I would like to build on your statements with only one slight disagreement....the passage was a proverb against the king of Babylon and proverbs like parables carry meanings beyond while in full compliance with their wordings for us to learn from. That passage in Isaiah is huge, packed with doctrine regarding evil and God's judgement against it, and it clearly directly speaks against Lucifer, The Shining One, or The Light Bringer" which was his name describing his gifts and position in Heaven when he served God in appreciation of his Creator. Lucifer's name was changed to Satan, "Adversary", after Satan decided to attempt to take God's place in leadership of the angels. I believe the word "Devil" refers to being twisted, evil, much like perverted (which is used speaking of twisting truth, not only of sexual perversion which is twisting for selfish indulgence the gift of sexuality God created for marriage), gone against nature which God created for good in holiness, owned by God for His glory and the honor of His name.

The prophets of God at times did not understand their own writings, and at times knew their writing shifted from speaking of events and people in this world to things in the spirit world or events in the future or past. It was the Spirit of God guiding the writings, and it is clear there is no misunderstanding of the passage regarding Lucifer.

Here is the excerpt from the proverb against the king of Babylon in Isaiah 14:

"4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

5 The Lord hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.

6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

22 For I will rise up against them, saith the Lord of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the Lord.

You see, the proverb starts by addressing the king of Babylon. Babylon in the Bible alludes to all religions of the world combined. In The Book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ, Chapter 17, Babylon is referred to as a woman, The Great Whore.

17 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus..................

The king of Babylon in Isiah is Satan, the Devil, who is the leader of Mystery Babylon, The Great Whore.

There are many passages in the Bible which continue in this doctrine, showing Satan is the serpent in the Garden of England, (hahaha, oops, a dyslexic typo there, I'll leave it as it gives me a chuckle thinking about England's dark history behind its monarchy and the underlying beliefs they hold regarding their king or queen...I'm sure most people know "Eden" was the intended word there) the person the king of Babylon was being compared to, Lucifer before he turned against God perverting his nature in evil, twisted and twisting truth trying to establish his right to rebel against God and not be imprisoned in fire which is God's passion against the price He had to pay to prove His right to keep all of His Creation in existence separating evil from His goodness....

All religion is the same as the Devil's aspiration of dethroning God with oneself. It's all about what we can do to establish ourselves so we cannot be condemned, and it's all lies. It is not possible for a sinner to justify their life in any way at any time or any place. Sin has to be paid for, we have to pay for our sin in Hell if we will not receive God's payment for our sin by His own blood in Jesus Christ.

There was no mis-translation. The king of Babylon is used as a comparison to Satan, the king of the Great Whore, Mystery Babylon, all of the religions of the world. God knew what He was doing in guiding His word, and He will judge the secrets of our hearts and thoughts according to His word.

Well, I hope you found this long post interesting enough to read in it's entirety. If you have, maybe I actually could become a successful author. This subject is one of which I have long considered writing a book on. It's at the heart of all my discussions with people from all religions, including atheists. It always boils down to self-exaltation which is devilish, all religions, Mormons, Muslims, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Hindus/Bhudists, Atheists, Theistic Evolutionists, Wicca and Satanism, Unity Church, you name it, they are all basically the same though their complications may take a lot of boiling down to get to the bottom of it. Time is so short, I believe if we had enough time I could persuade everybody on the planet to believe on Jesus and be saved, but I know this is unrealistic, Jesus Christ Himself could not persuade but a small percentage of the population to believe on Him and His detractors crucified Him and would crucify me the same if they could get away with it now.

Jupiter(116) Clarified
2 points

I believe you must remember. That the bible was translated from Hebrew into latin, into English. And translations screw up. A lot

That's how they came up with the word Jehova, they mistranslated the YHVH (the true name of god is YHVH.) Which they thought the Y was a J and I believe they added vowels in from "Adonai" (which was the Hebrew term for "lord" which was one of the words that did carry vowels)

But later it was found out to be YHVH, and the actual pronunciation for the word is lost, due to the fact that no one dared to say his name, and they referred to him as "god" and not by a name, because they saw themselves as unworthy. And only really mentioned his name in some writing's.

You see, there is always a historical background. Humans have screwed up the bible and changed it on many occasions (which is why there is 450 versions of the bible)

Ignoramis(381) Disputed
1 point

Angels in the Torah, according to my understanding, look like cows with wings, and aren't very nice. Satan is a title. God seems like a mean guy. To me it seems like Satan and God have a lot in common with regards to their controlling tendencies.

1 point

That makes more sense than the conventionally accepted meaning - of a red devil with a pitchfork saying and doing horrific things and getting off on it.

But ultimately it's just however one fiction writer builds or extrapolates on a framework set by some other fiction writer. Artistic license would allow for both plots.