Do you believe in God?
Side Score: 1620
Side Score: 1490
Why must religion and science always be compared to each other. No one asks a theologian to explain atomic theory (except when they are trying to prove that religion is false). In the same manner why do people insist on bringing religion into the realm of science?
Though I don't believe in any gods, I wish this point of view In the same manner why do people insist on bringing religion into the realm of science?, was more widespread.
If religion was exclusive of science there wouldn't be much left for religion is, I feel, the reason why it's not widespread. Where "god(s)" has been an answer for unknowns historically (alcohol in wine, fertility, our creation, morals, etc, etc) it just isn't good enough, or the case anymore. Science has striven, in a way that religion cannot, to explain the things that gods were thought to be responsible for previously. Gods have been and are still being pushed out to the extremities. Because of that science is under attack from religion and pseudo-religion (perversely so with biological science) so much these days. If science had got it so wrong you'd think they'd leave well alone?
I agree mostly with your reasoning on why religion attacks science, but i don't think most people realize that this argument is showing up as supporting belief in god. Since it wasn't tagged, I think it is getting a lot of 'i wish we could all get along' points but giving them to the supporting position.
This may be a problem with the site counting points for non-tagged arguments for one-side or the other.
I am a scientist and someone who believes in God. Maybe not the way the Bible describes him, as it was written by man and therefore flawed, but I still believe that there is a higher being. We don't have the scientific methods to test for him (or her =)!
You are a scientist? May I ask in which field?
It's because science and religion contradict in many areas, such as how humans came to exist.
But it's true that science can't explain everything. For everything outside the domain of science we have philosophy. However philosophy is similar to science in that it is based on rational thought rather than faith.
Science and religion (particularly Christianity) intersect in positive ways. For instance, it was Christianity that gave us the modern university system, and helped to keep scholarship alive through the middle ages. The Church also gave us the scientific method, and has assisted in many other scientific advancements throughout the ages. The Vatican even has fully-funded scientific commissions. Moreover, the Church has relied upon science to help it form opinions of the world. For instance, the Church relies upon science to provide the facts which it then analyzes using philosophy and theology, and then arrives at a conclusion (for instance, that slavery is evil). The fact is, though, it's not really possible for Christianity/philosophy/theology and science (that is, the search for truth in the physical world) to conflict, since they address different questions.
Science and religion (particularly Christianity) intersect in positive ways.
And in many negative ways as well. The catholic church suppressed all notions of a heliocentric universe, proposed by Galileo, under threat of punishment and excommunication. The church rejected the scientific basis for contraception. It only recently started to accept evolutionary theory. Science and religion only intersect in positive ways when science is discovering things that don't contradict religious dogma.
Because the realm of science is slowly consuming the realm of religion. It wasn't so long ago that religion was used to explain how the Sun moved through the sky, and where sickness came from. And now we have physics, biology, and a host of other bodies of knowledge.
It's reasonable to assume that this trend will continue. Therefore, it's also reasonable to wonder what remaining areas of religion will be replaced by science.
Religion seeks an explanation for why things happen. Science only answers how things happen.
i.e. How did the Earth form?
-Well, after billions of years the dust that composes earth eventually clumped together and condensed to form a planet. Some of this dust also made the sun.
How did all of this matter come to be?
-Billions and billions of years ago, at the beginning of time, there was the Big Bang, where an extremely dense piece of matter that held every atom in the known universe- the size of a pinhead maybe. All of the energy there caused it to explode and from there, galaxies and solar systems were born.
Where did the small piece of matter come from? or Why did the Big Bang happen?
If you can logically come up with a scientific answer to this, then you are absolutely amazing. How can everything come from nothing? Unless.... God made it! The spiritual being that always was and always will be created everything that never was and will cease to be!
While religion attacks science, science must defend itself. We saw life without learning in the middle ages. Bad, weren't they? Therefore, trying to hide fact because a book, supposedly written by a god that has not been proven, is an attack on learning and science. Why should we go simply with what the bible says? That is why people bring science and religion into comparison, because as one disproves parts of the other, the other sticks to its dogma and tries to ban science. That is wrong.
A religion is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a supernatural agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
I KNOW! Whenever someone asks me my religion, I tell them I'm athiest, entirely because I enjoy living a life without the burden of religion and I love science. They always tell me that I should convert so I won't burn in hell. Funny because I never said "YEAH satan all the way!"...I just tell em, "I enjoy science and pushing humanity further"
Because religion often contradicts science, which is proven. And when something that's proven wrong is in a book with a bunch of other stuff in it, I think it's pretty fair to question the other words in that book. So when the bible says the Earth is flat, and it's round, maybe the book isn't too accurate...
This is how God is justified..
bible tells you to believe in god god tells you to believe the bible the bible tells you to belive in god god tells you to believe in the bible, etc. etc. etc. etc.
of course god is real!
Side: No but I see the point
The only parts of science that religion contradicts are the ones that fall under evolution, which has not been proven. The only way that you could possibly say that the Bible says that the world is flat is if you called out the use of the poetic phrases 'the ends of the earth', 'the corners of the earth', etc. which are POETIC PHRASES. In fact, the Bible makes references to paleontology, geology etc. that were unproven by science until within the last century or two.
The only people to justify God in that way are the over-vocal idiots who scream about the evils of science and give Christianity a bad name.
Religion is science, it is in the realm of why science is there in there first place, curiosity. Curiosity, IMO, is the most basic fundamentals of faith, in general. People believe in god, or gods, because they've got faith in a higher being. Religion belongs within science, and science belongs within religion; after all, humans beings are the most significant proof of an existent of a higher being. How many animals, or life forms ever question why it is there? Or where it came from? I highly doubt it. Get used to it, mankind is the most complex and special life form that we know of in this vast universe; we are special.
Actually it is the burden of science and all those who oppose Creation to fully substantiate their clam before filing any exclusivity in teaching that claim. Since both are ultimately in the end a belief in the 1st act of creation.
So its a claim forced through legal process of atheists using a science that at its very beginning is exactly the same as creation by an act of God, or an act of nothing! Boylth have burden of proof.
Atheists need to prove the nothing or both have equal place to be taught in every place side by side so the student can decide without bias to 1 belief over the other!!!!
Nothing exists if No-Maximality is exemplified ...
What would it be like if God didn't really exist?
What if there was no Maximality, no Maximum Greatness, no Maximum Potential, and no Maximum Excellence to give form to abstract qualities, conscience judgement, and superior intelligence?
Who then created abstract qualities, conscience judgement, and superior intelligence?
Yes, but you are not the only person with faith on this planet. There are many people all over the world that have faith too, and they KNOW that they are right and that you are wrong. They KNOW it because they have faith. Many of the beliefs that you have are mutually exclusive to those of others, so no matter how much faith you have one of you MUST be wrong. Do you understand why proof is needed now?
So you believe even though you have no evidence for or against, you just have faith because you have faith because you have faith.... You are a classic drone because if you accept no evidence nothing can sway you, your mind is closed. In the real world nothing is for certain but everything can be backed with some kind of evidence. If it can't it doesn't exist.
I absolutely believe in God. But I suppose I aught to provide a little more reasoning than simply "the Bible says He exists" or "people have always believed in a divine being of some sort." Rather I believe because I find that it makes sense with me. I find it comforting and many arrogant atheists have stated that religion is something that "common," "ignorant" people used to explain things they did not understand. I'm no missionary, nor do I seek to convert anyone here or anywhere else to my faith. Some may say that this is a sin unto itself. But if I where to go about preaching to non-believers who have already been exposed to my beliefs I'd be no better than the "door-to-door" missionaries who present themselves as models of faith which I find to be hypocritical. /nI firmly believe that religion has a place in any society and that religion and science can be reconciled by a little open mindedness on both parts. There are far too many people on both sides of the argument that believe that the other side is "damned to hell" and must be "redeemed" or are "ignorant" and "backward." My religious convictions aside I believe that people have a right to believe what they will, and not be condemned by any mortal for it.
With that, I think the question isn't "do you believe in God?" Rather we should all ask, "Can you accept that someone else believes something differently, and have a inviolable right to do so?"
"Rather I believe because I find that it makes sense with me."
To be honest, you could really have stopped at that rather telling statement. It's rather funny that you then go on to argue that you find atheists arrogant because they state that religion is something people use to explain things they don't understand. Isn't that really exactly what you just admitted to doing?
"I find it comforting and many arrogant atheists have stated that religion is something that "common," "ignorant" people used to explain things they did not understand."
I assume you're aware that in nearly every study made on the subject, the religious have a lower average IQ than atheists?
And yet you do nothing except reinforce my point that atheists as a whole believe themselves to be superior to religious people. Why it is that you feel the need to try and belittle someone else's beliefs I'll never understand. I've never said that atheists are stupid because they don't believe in God, only stated observations about atheists' behavior. I think that atheists are arrogant because they don't bother to acknowledge they may in fact be wrong and as a whole demand that everyone believe exactly as they do. I find religious people who do the same to be arrogant as well.
It's one thing to voice your beliefs and try to convince someone, it's an entirely different thing to tell someone that they are wrong when one cannot provide any proof to support the claim. Personally I think that the universe has far to many coincidences to have been created by accident, I also think that God put in place a system of rules for the universe to follow and that investigating those rules is one of the most enduring and worthwhile uses of one's life.
Science and religion study too different things, science is the study of the universe, religion is the attempt to understand God and God's will. Both could coexist, many of the earliest scientists had the same world view as I have described, and the Church supported the. However people choose to ignore what to me seems to be fairly simple and straightforward. However, perhaps I am wrong and God will condemn every scientist who wanted to know how something worked, but that doesn't sound like the the God I believe in.
The beginning of time. How did it all start? The Big Bang, right? Okay.... Explain how the Big Bang came to be. Oh right, a very dense piece of matter exploded and created the universe. But wait, how did that piece of matter come to be? There was nothing before it. Oh, that's right. God, the being who always was, created it, fully intending for it to explode and make the universe. Duh.
In India, there was a young girl born with 8 limbs, part of a rare condition where a conjoined twin did not fully develop, and due to malnutrition, the twin began to reabsorb the body of the other twin. Now, to many in India, this is a miracle, and she is the reincarnation of Ganesh, however western science understands the root cause of this deformity and realizes that without help, the girl would die a horribly painful death. Indeed, her parasitic twin thing was removed eventually, however is this a miracle or a mutation? These 'amazing stories' do not account for alternate explanations and show how ignorant some people are.
"You hear amazing stories everyday."
"How is it that each and every one of todays problems is told as a verse in the bible, with an amazing example of how to deal with it."
The bible was written by several people over a long period of time. It is a collection of a great deal of wisdom. It's mainly the supernatural parts that I object to.
Actually, I think most people don't here 'amazing stories' everyday. I don't think I'd be wrong in saying that only a select few ignoramuses actually here 'amazing stories' everyday. Most people just live and struggle to exist in this cruel world that somehow becomes "beautiful" and "amazing" after god enters the picture...sarcasm hopefully apparent.
And I'd also love for you to illustrate for us (as is proper in debate) these stories that seemingly fortell the future! Were the disciples the christian version of Nostradamus?! (the heretic every christian loved to hate...) I find it baffling that such a turn of events has allowed the bible to become a predictive tool, which would've been bogus up until modern day (read: terrible) America.
On the contrary it's the truest text ever written.
If you have eyes to see it, and a heart to understand it. It has no contradictions and the depth of it. It's the path of great wisdom. With oracles spoken with a few simple texts.
I read it and it's fluid. Literally like Water!
Jesus said come to the Living Water. I've experienced that in that book. Oh my God such depth!
You are saddlly mistaken about the Bible and about God!
There's a flaw in your argument. The Law of Cause and Effect is a property within the physical universe itself (or possibly even just our perception of it). Just because things in the universe follow the Law doesn't mean the universe itself does.
Your statement is analogous to saying "everything in this house is under a roof, therefore the house itself must have a further roof above it."
Even if you disagree with that analogy, you still haven't solved the First Cause problem, you've just bumped it up a level. If something greater than the universe caused the universe, what created that "greater cause"? If that "greater cause" has some special property that enables it to be a First Cause, why attribute that property to something outside the universe instead of applying it to the universe itself?
This video is a response to:
"Even if you disagree with that analogy, you still haven't solved the First Cause problem, you've just bumped it up a level. If something greater than the universe caused the universe, what created that "greater cause"? If that "greater cause" has some special property that enables it to be a First Cause, why attribute that property to something outside the universe instead of applying it to the universe itself?"
Can you define universe or do you agree with Wikipedia?
"The Universe is most commonly defined as everything that physically exists: the entirety of space and time, all forms of matter, energy and momentum, and the physical laws and constants that govern them. However, the term "universe" may be used in slightly different contextual senses, denoting such concepts as the cosmos, the world or Nature."
Responding to: "Just because things in the universe follow the Law doesn't mean the universe itself does."
Universe - Wikipedia (en.wikipedia.org)
Counterexample: Chaotic systems. A small change in the initial conditions can have enormous results in the end. Therefore, causes need not be greater than effects.
Another example, though not a chaotic system, is a line of dominoes, each slightly bigger than the next. Tip the smallest one over, and as long as the sizes do not increase too fast, the last and largest will eventually fall.
Read "a New kind of science" by Stephen Wolfram. It is a book about complexity theory that goes to show (with mathematical computer simulations) that complex forms and structures are more likely to have a simple set of initial conditions than complex. In fact if the intial conditions are complex almost all of the time the forms/structures that follow are simple
If all material effects/movements are caused by something physical, then why assume a meta-physical being set in motion the ultimate first cause?
Lets not forget uncaused events like the vacuum fluctuations that occur all the time.
It would seem that our universes' existence does not require a cause
The Caused Beginning of the Universe: A Response to Quentin Smith
Dr. William Lane Craig
Quentin Smith has recently argued that (I) the universe began to exist and (II) its beginning was uncaused. In support of (II), he argues that (i) there is no reason to think that the beginning was caused by God and (ii) it is unreasonable to think so. I dispute both claims.
His case for (i) misconstrues the causal principle, appeals to false analogies of ex nihilo creation, fails to show how the origin of the universe ex nihilo is naturally plausible, and reduces to triviality by construing causality as predictability in principle. His case for (ii) ignores important epistemological questions and fails to show either that vacuum fluctuation models are empirically plausible or that they support his second claim.
The Caused Beginning of the Universe: A Response to Quentin Smith (www.leaderu.com)
It is true that there is no hard core evidence that God exits, but there is no proof that he doesn’t exist. Can anyone who doesn’t believe in God provide hard core evidence that contradicts God existence? Not theories, stories, or assumptions, but evidence.
Just because we are incapable of proving God exists does not mean he doesn’t. Once people were incapable of proving that the world was round so did that make it flat? There is also archeology that coincides with the bible. Also the reason most Christians don’t need evidence is because we have FAITH. Those who believe that God doesn’t exist have just as much FAITH in the matter, because there is no hard core evidence that proves the belief that God doesn’t exist.
Top Ten Archaeological Discoveries of the Twentieth Century Relating to the Biblical World (biblicalstudies.info)
If I was to say the invisible flying speghetti monster exists and created the god that you believe in - how would you prove that it doesn't.
You might try finding the origination of that belief and discrediting it source, by finding inconsistencies within the beliefs, or inconsistencies with what they believed and our current knowledge.
for example - if a religion believed:
there was an earth with water and grass and trees and night and day
- before there was a sun or moon
that the sun and moon are in our atmosphere
that god created animals then man and woman in Gen 1:24-27 but created man first, then animals, then woman in Gen 2:18-22
that Sons of God (nephilim) had sex with the daughters of men and created giants Gen 6:2-4
the omniscient, all powerful, all good creator god regretted creating everything and decided to kill all humans, plants, and air/land animals less than 1700 years after creation, but decides to let one 600 year old man build a football field sized boat and get all the animals and enough food for them to live more than a year at sea since there was enough water to cover the entire earth more than 22 ft higher than the tallest mountain Gen 6:6-7
that God told Noah to take 2 of every animal in Gen 6:19-20 but four verses later says to bring 7 pairs of every clean animal and 2 of animals that are not clean Gen 7:2
and that's just in the first seven (out of 50) chapters of Genesis
if you were to read a book like this that was not called the bible - you would likely wonder what crazy stuff people were smoking in those days
You seem to think that at the same time the big bang happened the earth was created. The earth is about four billion years old, but the big bang happened somewhere between 13-14 billion years ago. The gases that made up the earth came according to big bang theory ultimately from that big bang - but not (and this is important) all at the same time. All-at-the-same-time is the bible version of creation, remember.
This is the problem with many of the arguments the religious side makes here - you make up a simplified straw-man out of what you believe one theory or another says and have obviously not studied these theory's, probably because you live in parts of your country where religion has such a stronghold that you don't get to learn these things. This forces us to spend most of our time correcting your ridiculous and flawed statements - and then some of you get very hurt when we assault your intelligence.
At least we have studied the foundation of your claims
YES. Wouldn't you would laugh at anyone who did not believe that there is a designer who designed your "designer jeans"? What about someone who thought watches and cars just accidentally fell together? The natural order leads to disorder...just look at our homes...just look at any machine that is not maintained.Can you see that it takes more faith to believe that our amazing bodies just fell together, then that they are designed by a designer? Just look at a leaf closely, or a sea shell, or even a spider web. Everything in nature points to an Intelligent Designer. Design only comes through some level of programing... by GOD. On top of that, we can also see that, "the heavens DECLARE the GLORY of GOD." says Psalm 19:1 from the NIV Holy Bible. It is clear that to be so blind as not to see God's hand in nature and in life, is the ultimate state of selfimposed darkness, emptiness, and meaninglessness. It is the opposite, of finding an Intelligent God who chooses to love us and who has shown it through his SON, Jesus Christ...What joy, hope, love , light and meaningFULLness this knowledge produces in us who see, and believe.Other species do not realize this truth because they were never programed to think about God. We were....
The theory of evolution explains the development of complex organisms without the need for an interventionist creator. Indeed, it explains it more adequately than an omniscient, omnipotent creator, because it also explains all the mistakes that were made along the way; witness the "blind spot" human eyes have as a result of having the light-sensing cells behind the nerve cells.
Forget taking a look at a machine that is not maintained; take a look at Conway's Game of Life. There you can truly see complexity generated from simplicity; there are starting patterns that have been proven to continue indefinitely without repeating themselves.
Finally, if anything truly complex DOES require a designer, which I do not accept, then doesn't God himself require a designer? He can hardly be said to be "simple"; otherwise we mere humans wouldn't have all this trouble comprehending Him, would we?
I would consider an alternate explanation to the designer jeans scenario, but only considering their explanation is more reasonable and logical than mine. And what circular logic, "god is true because the bible says so. The bible is true because it was written by god", yeah, well, i could say "I am god because i wrote a book about me being god". That's fallacious! Furthermore, just because an option is unpalatable to the conscience doesn't make it any less true. If i thought that Bush didn't exist, because i don't like him, that doesn't unmake him. Also, i am curious how you reconcile your god's omnipotence and omni-sapience, if he knows the future, is he powerful enough to change it? Also, if he has a divine plan, then why give us choice? Surely a wrong choice would ruin his plan, making him neither omni-sapient, nor omnipotent. Furthermore, if he does have a plan, why pray? why should he change his plan for you? and if he does, then he's not omni-sapient, again. I really dont see how you can reconcile these paradoxes.
"Can you see that it takes more faith to believe that our amazing bodies just fell together..."
This is a common misunderstanding of evolution. Evolution is not random - things don't "just fall together." Evolution is design - just not intelligent design. It is design by natural selection.
exactly. Molecules do not randomly fit together- they have a certain shape that predisposes them to fitting to some but not others - then they build up bigger forms that un-randomly fit to other molecule clusters and so on. The randomness is only if and when they will coma against forms that fit. Most of the time they bump into molecules that dont fit.
Look kids! He started with the watchmaker argument! Please, please, please, stop using arguments that have been proven to be flawed over and over and over! This is the problem that theists have when convincing atheists that there is a god of some sort, you don't use good arguments.
Anyway, to disprove that argument, we recognize that things like jeans, laptop, and WATCHES have a creator because that's the culture that we've been brought up in. We know that they have a creator because there's no method through which they could've come together other than that. But for the complexities of our bodies, the spiders, and the sea shells, we have explained methods by which they reach their complexity (evolution).
The main problem that I have with the watchmaker argument is the inherent fundamentalist theistic blindness that it displays. On the surface, it simply shows the theist ignoring scientific evidence (which is a bit of a euphemism, I've realized. Let's make this clear: evidence means we've SEEN IT HAPPEN), but then you dive deeper and it shows how much the belief in a god (I didn't capitalize it because I wasn't referring to the Abrahamic God) can blind a person to the flaws in their argument. You're stating that a god (which most people say is perfect) created the universe (perfectly). You're arrogant enough to assume that this universe was created for humans, one of the stupidest assertions you can make. If a god exists, he's a damn shitty one for creating all this useless crap around us (the whole universe that we don't really need). Why wouldn't a god give us better, longer lasting, stronger bodies? Why wouldn't a god make the universe centered around us if we were what he created it for? Why wouldn't we be living in a metaphorical "Garden of Eden"? Here's the answer: because a god doesn't exist.
Also, why do you assert that the christian God created the universe?
I like to think there is something more powerful than we can know or understand, but I do not believe in God as the Bible describes him. I have yet to discover an organized religion that I have complete faith in. I'm spiritual, but in my own way -- not how it's been defined by anyone else.
This begs an epistemological question: how could you know that there is something necessarily so powerful that humans are incapable of understanding it? (isn't that a statement that relies on understanding the very entity that you say we might be incapable of understanding?)
It also begs a further question: how would you be able to recognize an entity or being that is outside of your capacity to understand; that is, without understanding what you are encountering, how would you be able to acknowledge it for what it is: a being more powerful than you are capable of understanding?
First of all, I would rather believe that there is a creator, then that everything happened by chance. It doesn't make sense to say that if you look at a car, that somehow everything crashed together and made a car that RUNS. The other question; That's real easy. This "powerful being" already thought of that and gave us a book that he inspired called the bible. He gave it to us so that we could know more about him
I believe in God.. as we can simply see today it was to simple to say you don't believe in God because of the matter that you never saw him!!!!! yet i am telling you... how can you ask if there really is God? it only indicates that deep within you there sis ca triggering factor that you still have faith in the Supreme being
nature (and natural occurrences) proving the existence of god is a completely bogus argument. When the Renaissance and Enlightenment philosophers were pondering God's existence not once did they attend to the level of 'proven-by-nature.'
There is no true rationale behind it! If you could causally link the face of a newborn child to the existence of an omnipotent god that somehow manages to escape all access in this universe...then you would be a flying pig :P
Prophecy: bible predictions 2000 years ago. Israel will become a nation again. Israel will be hated by all nations. Europe, revived roman empire, to be the final world government. EU gives rise to Antichrist, who will come out of Spain (10th nation of EU) and form a peace contract with Israel for 7 years. 666: mark of the Antichrist - a biometric identification system that will facilitate commerce. Increase in technology, earthquakes, transportation all in association with Israel becoming a nation. Check out http://www.jvim.com/ for amazing biblical prophecy.
Ok, so the Bible says the descendants of the Israelis will reunite. That one happened. But the other predictions are just absurd.
"Europe, revived roman empire, to be the final world government. EU gives rise to Antichrist, who will come out of Spain (10th nation of EU) and form a peace contract with Israel for 7 years."
How is Europe the revived Roman Empire? Even if we pretend that it is, there's no way Europe is going to take over the entire world.
"666: mark of the Antichrist - a biometric identification system that will facilitate commerce."
Seriously? I can't believe people up-voted this crap.
That's not it at all. Emotions are completely natural, animals show compassion all the time, this is why you dog licks you and why you don't fk with a bear's cubs. What does the existence of a creator have to do with the possibility of love? That's such a random association.
I am totally lost with this one. i dont really know what to believe in sometimes. i think that there is so much going on to say the existance of god exists that what real evidence do we have that says that god doesnt exist? maybe all the different types of religion are scattered everywhere but if you join them all together then you will see that all religions are all going on about the one god in the end making that to have this many followers, it sort of says that god does exist in his own way
Side: Of Course God Is Real
I do believe in God and have experienced Him in my life! A year ago I was diagnosed with stage 4 stomach cancer, basically I was given a year to live, it was considered terminal. Well, I have been healed by the power of Jesus Christ, three months ago I was divinely healed in Lakeland Florida. I went because I had heard that people were being healed at this revival and I didn't have any other options so I went to worship God, and the pastor literally said someone here has stomach cancer and needs to come up here, so I waited and waited and I knew in my heart, I could feel the burning in my spirit that it was me he was talking about so I made my way up to the stage. He came up to me and said in the name of JESUS be healed and without even touching me I fell back on the ground literally slain in the Spirit and it was like my stomach was a wave pool, like a washing machine . . . so I come back to TN and go to the doctor and there is no cancer anywhere, I just wanted to add this to the debate because miracles like this need to be known and accounted for. I know that God exists and that there is power in the name of Jesus that there is healing in His name and He is good!!!!
every time we try to assign to god some specific act, science comes along and shows plausible ways it could happen without god. The Miller Urey experiments of the 1950s showed you could take elements present in the early stages of earth and apply electricity to simulate static electricity/lightning - the result was amino acids and oganic compounds. the fact that inorganic can turn into organic and that better and more complex beings can come from lesser beings are both easily observable and all that is necessary for evolution to explain our existence.
Miller Urey (en.wikipedia.org)
of course. Looking around us we see things that cant be explained away by futile theories created by people to fill the void in their life.
Take Yellowstone. Travel there, walk around and tell me if it takes more faith to believe that it was a random act of evolution or a planned act of an all-powerful God.
The evidence of God's existence is all around us: You, Me, Life the World, the Universe. There is no way science can explain how something can just come into existence out of nothing. The Big Bang Theory? Where did that little ball of matter that exploded come from? How did it come to be? There is no way to explain the existence of everything in the universe without God or some sort of higher power. In science, one has to know how to explain something, but we don't have to understand God. One must just have faith. The existence of God is what makes sense to show where everything came from, while science does not makes sense in this subject. Why did we come to be? What causes us to have morals? Do you really want to believe that your mind, body, spirit, and whole being are just a random collection of matter, that you mean nothing. I don't know about you, but that is such a grim thought to me.
You, Me, Life the World, the Universe is proof of You, Me, Life the World, the Universe - not god.
"Where did that little ball of matter that exploded come from" - god only shifts the question to where did god come from. if god is allowed to exist forever, then why wouldn't something simpler.
There is less historical evidence for Jesus Christ than for Robin hood. The scrolls that date before the year 384 after Christ (when the modern bible was formed for political reasons) - describe yoshua (meaning savior in Aramaic, and not a mans name) as some sort of spirit/ghost. And there is no evidence or historical record of Jesus that dates from the time he was supposedly living
Compare the historical evidence of Buddha for example (who lived approximately 500 years before Christ) They practically have the laundry list of Buddha
1. The Argument from Change
The material world we know is a world of change. This young woman came to be 5'2", but she was not always that height. The great oak tree before us grew from the tiniest acorn. Now when something comes to be in a certain state, such as mature size, that state cannot bring itself into being. For until it comes to be, it does not exist, and if it does not yet exist, it cannot cause anything.
As for the thing that changes, although it can be what it will become, it is not yet what it will become. It actually exists right now in this state (an acorn); it will actually exist in that state (large oak tree). But it is not actually in that state now. It only has the potentiality for that state.
Now a question: To explain the change, can we consider the changing thing alone, or must other things also be involved? Obviously, other things must be involved. Nothing can give itself what it does not have, and the changing thing cannot have now, already, what it will come to have then. The result of change cannot actually exist before the change. The changing thing begins with only the potential to change, but it needs to be acted on by other things outside if that potential is to be made actual. Otherwise it cannot change.
Nothing changes itself. Apparently self-moving things, like animal bodies, are moved by desire or will—something other than mere molecules. And when the animal or human dies, the molecules remain, but the body no longer moves because the desire or will is no longer present to move it.
Now a further question: Are the other things outside the changing thing also changing? Are its movers also moving? If so, all of them stand in need right now of being acted on by other things, or else they cannot change. No matter how many things there are in the series, each one needs something outside itself to actualize its potentiality for change.
The universe is the sum total of all these moving things, however many there are. The whole universe is in the process of change. But we have already seen that change in any being requires an outside force to actualize it. Therefore, there is some force outside (in addition to) the universe, some real being transcendent to the universe. This is one of the things meant by "God."
Briefly, if there is nothing outside the material universe, then there is nothing that can cause the universe to change. But it does change. Therefore there must be something in addition to the material universe. But the universe is the sum total of all matter, space and time. These three things depend on each other. Therefore this being outside the universe is outside matter, space and time. It is not a changing thing; it is the unchanging Source of change.
From the Handbook of Christian Apologetics by Peter Kreeft and Fr. Ronald Tacelli, SJ (Intervarsity Press, 1994
The Argument from Change (www.peterkreeft.com)
exactly. In nature there is something called synergy. that is, when two materials fused together make for a stronger (for example)material than the sum of the strength of the materials separately. This happens because of how they interrelate for certain mathematical forms are stronger than others. A tetrahedron is a stronger form then a box for example
different forms coming together randomly can cause huge exponential changes
"Now when something comes to be in a certain state, such as mature size, that state cannot bring itself into being. For until it comes to be, it does not exist, and if it does not yet exist, it cannot cause anything."
That would be true if the state itself did physically exist, but it does not. "Mature size" is not a "thing" in the world. It's a quality of oak trees that some people perceive of certain trees. If all of the oaks on Earth died "mature size oak" would still exist because it only exists as a concept in the minds of humans. Conversely, if all humans died, "mature size oak" would disappear, because there would be no philosophers to declare, "this is a mature size oak".
Trees need no outside supernatural force to manifest some property that isn't intrinsic to them to begin with.
"To explain the change, can we consider the changing thing alone, or must other things also be involved?"
The problem here is that "thing" is pretty poorly defined. An acorn does not magically transform into a tree. Instead, the molecules within it used their stored energy to build the first shoot. That shoot then takes in carbon dioxide from the air and uses that to build new plant cells, which in turn grow more and more. So, from the perspective of the carbon, nothing has changed. It used to be floating in the air with its two oxygen pals and nows it's in a plant cell, part of an oak tree. At no point did that molecule attain "treeness".
The funny thing about this debate is that regardless of which side you're on, you're there based on faith. I like to think that God intended this. Science and a belief in God do not have to be mutually exclusive of each other. I believe God intended us seek knowledge and question things...even Him. I also believe His design ensures that we'll never find all the answers. For everything science brings to the table, it won't be able to prove "scientifically" that the universe and everything in it, is a result of random happenstance. I don't knock those that question His existance because I didn't always believe. Like many, I believed because my parents taught me to believe. A time came when I realized that there would ALWAYS be something to be discovered, questioned, and debated, and I asked myself how likely is it that such a universe just happened? I have great respect for science and it's power to make things both good and bad, but I put my faith in God and will bet that He'll keep science questioning forever.
'..regardless of which side you're on, you're there based on faith.'
No faith is the belief in something with inadequate evidence and in the case of God, lots of evidence to the contrary. Science is based on evidence.
'Science and a belief in God do not have to be mutually exclusive of each other.'
Indeed. There are scientific reasons why people believe in gods.
'I believe God intended us seek knowledge and question things...even Him.'
You can believe whatever you want but if it adversely affects the lives of others, you should be held accountable with reasoned inquiry.
E.g. I may believe that the sun sets in the Indian ocean every night because my parents and community say so but if I punch those who dissent from my belief I should be forced to face reason with evidence.
'For everything science brings to the table, it won't be able to prove "scientifically" that the universe and everything in it, is a result of random happenstance.'
That's your assumption. Perhaps it's akin to a 10th century peasant saying 'never' when conteplating the lunar landings.
'A time came when I realized that there would ALWAYS be something to be discovered..'
'..I put my faith in God..'
I'll put it this way, Life to exist without a deity of some sort (I personally belive it is my Father in Heaven but I'll debate that some other time) is near impossible, for example, a species is now defined as a group of organisms that can succesfully breed and create fertile offspring in the wild, so if, let's say, a homo habilis once did evolve from a homo erectus, the chances of just one evolving is near zero, but since species cannot breed out of species then how would humans evolve and populate the earth?
Simple, we've documented evolution in current years. We've seen it happen. Yes, the chances are very small that something will successfully evolve which is why it takes millions of years for new species to arise.
For example, the monkey family has an extra set of chromosomes. WELL GOD MUSTA DID IT! No, occasionally in evolution, a set of chromosomes will become fused. Chromosomes have end caps on them to tell RNA where to stop coding. Chromosome 3 in our genome is actually a smashed together 15 and 16 from the monkey family, proven by the matching DNA and the site on the chromosomes where there are two end caps are illogically joined. Then there's fossils and anthropological remains to show the progression. That's how. Do your research.
Yes because God has pulled me out through the hard times, and is the one and only God who loves unconditionally and is fair. If you want a scientific view He created this Earth and there is no way this Earth could have been created by some accident. A cell with its complicated parts could not have been created by an accident either, but only by God and his perfection.
2. The Argument from Efficient Causality
We notice that some things cause other things to be (to begin to be, to continue to be, or both). For example, a man playing the piano is causing the music that we hear. If he stops, so does the music.
Now ask yourself: Are all things caused to exist by other things right now? Suppose they are. That is, suppose there is no Uncaused Being, no God. Then nothing could exist right now. For remember, on the no-God hypothesis, all things need a present cause outside of themselves in order to exist. So right now, all things, including all those things which are causing things to be, need a cause. They can give being only so long as they are given being. Everything that exists, therefore, on this hypothesis, stands in need of being caused to exist.
But caused by what? Beyond everything that is, there can only be nothing. But that is absurd: all of reality dependent—but dependent on nothing! The hypothesis that all being is caused, that there is no Uncaused Being, is absurd. So there must be something uncaused, something on which all things that need an efficient cause of being are dependent.
Existence is like a gift given from cause to effect. If there is no one who has the gift, the gift cannot be passed down the chain of receivers, however long or short the chain may be. If everyone has to borrow a certain book, but no one actually has it, then no one will ever get it. If there is no God who has existence by his own eternal nature, then the gift of existence cannot be passed down the chain of creatures and we can never get it. But we do get it; we exist. Therefore there must exist a God: an Uncaused Being who does not have to receive existence like us—and like every other link in the chain of receivers.
Question 1: Why do we need an uncaused cause? Why could there not simply be an endless series of things mutually keeping each other in being?
Reply: This is an attractive hypothesis. Think of a single drunk. He could probably not stand up alone. But a group of drunks, all of them mutually supporting each other, might stand. They might even make their way along the street. But notice: Given so many drunks, and given the steady ground beneath them, we can understand how their stumblings might cancel each other out, and how the group of them could remain (relatively) upright. We could not understand their remaining upright if the ground did not support them—if, for example, they were all suspended several feet above it. And of course, if there were no actual drunks, there would be nothing to understand.
This brings us to our argument. Things have got to exist in order to be mutually dependent; they cannot depend upon each other for their entire being, for then they would have to be, simultaneously, cause and effect of each other. A causes B, B causes C, and C causes A. That is absurd. The argument is trying to show why a world of caused causes can be given—or can be there—at all. And it simply points out: If this thing can exist only because something else is giving it existence, then there must exist something whose being is not a gift. Otherwise everything would need at the same time to be given being, but nothing (in addition to "everything") could exist to give it. And that means nothing would actually be.
Question 2: Why not have an endless series of caused causes stretching backward into the past? Then everything would be made actual and would actually be—even though their causes might no longer exist.
Reply: First, if the kalam argument (argument 6) is right, there could not exist an endless series of causes stretching backward into the past. But suppose that such a series could exist. The argument is not concerned about the past, and would work whether the past is finite or infinite. It is concerned with what exists right now.
Even as you read this, you are dependent on other things; you could not, right now, exist without them. Suppose there are seven such things. If these seven things did not exist, neither would you. Now suppose that all seven of them depend for their existence right now on still other things. Without these, the seven you now depend on would not exist—and neither would you. Imagine that the entire universe consists of you and the seven sustaining you. If there is nothing besides that universe of changing, dependent things, then the universe—and you as part of it—could not be. For everything that is would right now need to be given being but there would be nothing capable of giving it. And yet you are and it is. So there must in that case exist something besides the universe of dependent things—something not dependent as they are.
And if it must exist in that case, it must exist in this one. In our world there are surely more than seven things that need, right now, to be given being. But that need is not diminished by there being more than seven. As we imagine more and more of them—even an infinite number, if that were possible—we are simply expanding the set of beings that stand in need. And this need—for being, for existence—cannot be met from within the imagined set. But obviously it has been met, since contingent beings exist. Therefore there is a source of being on which our material universe right now depends.
From the Handbook of Christian Apologetics by Peter Kreeft and Fr. Ronald Tacelli, SJ (Intervarsity Press, 1994
The Argument from Efficient Causality (www.peterkreeft.com)
Just a flaw with your initial argument.
"Suppose they are. That is, suppose there is no Uncaused Being, no God. Then nothing could exist right now. For remember, on the no-God hypothesis, all things need a present cause outside of themselves in order to exist."
That's assuming time has a finite beginning. If you believe that God is and always was, and considering that we don't see time having an end, then why does time (an infinite dimension, therefore) have to have a beginning?
Quick question for those of you who are both atheists and Democrats (which, if my Republican friends are correct, that's all of them). Most atheists I know think that anyone who believes in God is a moron. So here's the question:
Is Barack Obama a liar or a moron? He says that he is a Christian, which, according to those atheists who believe Christians are morons, makes him a moron. Either that or he's lying about his beliefs. I've always been curious about people's opinions on the matter. Thanks!
I don't think he's a moron -- quite the opposite actually -- but it's a simple fact that an atheist would almost definitely not be elected President of the United States. Thus, any politician will have an incentive to delude themselves and avoid thinking about the question too much. So I would say he's not a moron or a liar, he's simply choosing not to seriously question his faith.
Here's my take on seemingly intelligent people believing in god's existence.
In the end, its all about emotion and absolutely nothing to do with intelligence. Take fear of death, for example. That fear can be so great, only hoping for heaven can keep the fear under control. People are just superstitious, except they don't see themselves as that because that's what the ancients were, and people are modern now. Yeah, right1
The term, god, is not defined in this so called, babble.
Never debate a man who cannot define the terms of his propositions. When the term, god, is mentioned there are as many meanings to what god is as there are people thinking of god.
God: a term that denotes a supreme authority.
Even the Ten commandments implies the presence of other gods who too are worshiped.
Conclusion: All men/women believe in a god whose existence and authority are predicated upon the intellect of Its' creators.
Side: Define the term God
I do believe that their is something that created everything in the universe and i called it god because that is the word or term I grew up with but i do not believe in religion and it belief that theirs books came from the divined that is a load of crap and religion is just the earliest form of government
Side: religious hypocrites
So, you are telling me that the universe was made by a bunch of gases which went boom. Then after a long process it became the Earth.
Just a little question about your theory. Who made these tiny gases? Who made life? It would take more than just a coincidental arrangement of atoms and molecules to form a single living cell. Science does not explain life AT ALL. What happens in the afterlife? Or, what is outside of the universe? is it just empty space? How far does it lead us?
I was lost in the Darkest parts of my own wicked ways, spiraling down a path of destruction leading me away from His Almighty ways, and all the while im going down ONLY ONE, He could save me. No matter how far i looked on this lowly planet, i never once found a soul who could manage, to show me the love that i truly needed, because on this planet aint nothing but hate and contempt have been breeded. the lowly snake slithering as he goes through the towns of man looking for lowly lowly souls, to feed on so that it could plant it's evil seeds, and so that throughout the generations nothing but evil and hate we could recieve, but those where the ways of the past, my brothers and sisters. the devil had a hold of us and he managed through our parents, down through the generations His ways have been lost, and because of the us, the devil has turned and tossed, We can All be saved, all we need is Thanksgiving, to the One who Above, for All of His Givings. The devils trying to stop me right now as i speak, but Faithful to the Lord and willit He, that i may be meek. Because it is He not i that gives you this message but it is The One that we All should seek. i know that it is hard to find Rest, as we all go through this test some call a game, every single last one of us, probably, training to gain and retain our fame. But That is not what this life is about, i have a Strong feeling that we are All getting our Water from the wrong wrong spout. because thats all the devil has for us is a little bit, of pleasure, then comes the pain. steady feeding our bodies what i see now Is Insane. because ya'll hafto see that we are all carnally minded, and This is the reason The LORD, us he has blinded, binding, ourselves to our own flesh, so that eventually we would All fail this Test. but know that The Lord, He loves us, and wishes nothing but the best, and all He wants is for us to Love Him all the while through this Test. some wonder why we see nadoes and quakes, He needs ya'll to know that its Ya'lls souls that He is trying to shake. and bake if you will, so the devil may not have his fill, to letchya'll know that there is NONE like that ALMIGHTY AND ALL POWERFULL ONE. i say full because Hes filled with Love, like None that we have seen on this lowly earth, but now that i have SEEN, my Eyes have been UnBlinded, and now it is He, He who signs this, letter so maybe that some of Ya'll could listen, and Maybe get the Message that He is trying to dish, out of His spout, so that ya'll might be fed, with all of His Love, His Water, And His Bread. Don't for a second think any of Ya'll are living, All of ya'll are dead and for the devil are you "living" as i sit here and do this all of the "dome" just know that it is Not me and that this is His tomb. He is singing through me in these words and this song, so that maybe one day we All can be free all the day long, and ya'll can say its cheesy if ya'll want, but just know the devil in you he does flaunt x) i had to stop and show ya'll how i felt about that one, cuz its the truth, and right now i have a Strong feeling He is swinging harder than that brother Babe Ruth, or ballin harder than micheal jordan, and in this song he Is Playing His Accordian. Ya'll just need to know that He is our Guardian, and right now im flying Higher than any single air jordan, because my love i gave to Him more than any of Ya'll so i guess i can say more than them. But dont getit twizted like boi's if ya'll know, that me and moreover Him, have a lot to show. we are all brothers and sisters, but i should call us the missers, because we all fail to see the smaller things in this world, without even thinking twice, what truly brings a man alot of happiness or to see the pain that ALOT of us have in us. i know that we are all hurting on the inside, and for ya'll who say we dont, Boi, you know that is a lie, because only with Him and not that evil leech from down south, can we truly fly. higher than the highest of trees or the tallest of mountains, But in Him we Have to trust, so that We may Drink From The One and Only True fountain, only because of Him can i do this for days, and its Because i gave Him my love, thanksgiving, and praise. so now that i have seen what it is truly to be Man, Men of God, all these hater out there who bout to say something aint nuthing more than sod. sorry if it dont make sense, just know that me and Him the latter first, We are just trying to give His children, ya'll some mother lovin cents. forgive me if i pause for no longer am i a vulgar man life is just a beach, and Now, He is playing in the sand, hopefully in the minds of the young, the daughters and sons, i have my holster, and now the Lord is my Gun, Shining Brighter, than a million suns, times two, because His love is True, actually make that twenty twenty, because He is aplenty, in me in you and All, i just hope that ya'll can hear His call, so that maybe that ya'll may not fall, into the Pit, but right now i can say the devil is probably having a fit, of anxiety cuz he is losing his "children" just know that we are God's and with me He has been pilfering, in my mind day and night, as i have been in my room trying to stay out of sight, of ya'll because all it seems like to me, that nothing to ya'll it would please, more, than to see one of your own fellow brother get shot and fall. when i look around me i dont see any real love, this evil surrounds me, but Now i DO NOT CARE, because the Lord, THE LORD, HE has found me. so now ya'll cannot touch, because with His love, im about to bust. with loving Faith and Trust, i put in Him, so that i can be led away from this life of sin, and Now that i have His Trust, my brotha's and sista's, not just the black ones, comeon now, that just is not a must, there is no such thing man, all that is, is nothing more than an evil thought, brought up in vain, so that maybe a man's soul, that leech, can be bought. Quit being evil, for it is Love, that should be sought, out so once again we may be fed from His Spout, for only He can give us what we need so that in the end we may succeed. my brothers and sisters all we need to do is Believe, and then, Anything, together, WE CAN ACHIEVE. this is an ode to ya'll so in hopes once again that ya'll may hear The Call, and will not fall, so one day me, ya'll, and The Almighty,Perfect, like a prefect without the er, Omnipotent, and Patient ONE, that together we May All Ball. and they keep telling me to stop, but i just cant my brothers me and Him are headed to the top, and right now i got The Heart Of A Lion, King, and pray tell me my brothers and sisters who are reading, what single Beast can stop that king? of the jungle we are running but with Him we can be free. out into the open pasture we all can roam, just know this is not me, and that this is His Tomb. its wierd how they're spelled alike but do not rhyme, im talking bout bomb my brothers, and its One of a Kind. in the Hopes that this petty rhyme, can help lead the black sheep, away from the Blind, being themselves, for who? tell me can save them from that? if you dont answer right then your a part of this blight that runs rampant through the streets, evil im talking about and all it wants to do is eat, your souls because it is angry at the Living God, hahahaha for it is nothing more than a sod, on His Cleat as He is Running, Hoping that some of these Words, hit you right in the stomach, and make you sick, but not you, im talking about the evil you, for we are all children of God, but we have made ourselves nothing more than a sod =( i say with a heavy heart, because all this time we have been playing the devil, his part, but with Him it is nothing but a fart, because He Forgives, and Only Through Him may we EVER, get the chance to Live, and im not talking about on the earth, im talking about another, and maybe one day you can see and i can Truly call you my Brother, for there is Life in Death, but it is only gained through this life which is a test, just know that when we die, if you have lived righteously, on that day you will Fly, for the Lord will Breathe His Breath in you when you die and like i said before You Will Fly, but not if you keep eating from the devil's table, for you can only eat from one, and i hope its Not the devil's table. for if we Eat from Him, we can All go back into His Stable, and only in doing that can we Ever truly be stable, only only if, we are eating from, The Living God's Table. and for ya'll who are sitting at your computers steadily dissin Him, i pray for you, because it you are missin, Him and the bigger picture, just know right now im taking a Big Gulp From His Ultimate Pitcher, not one from the MLB, and if you are listening then i pray that you sea, i mean see, but with Him we can fly over the one before, and higher than mike, dunk it in, right for a score, but not for 2 for it is for 3, because He is Holy in me, but atm holy in you, because you missing some parts, we all need to change, so that we may play His Part, that He intended from the Beginning, because only With Him can we ever be winning, but hahahaha not as long as we are sinning. for that is not the way that we was meant to walk, With Him we was mean to Walk and Talk. once again i say this way i, used to, but we choose to live, is insane in the membrane, but He is using me as His Template, lol or templar whichever you prefer, just know that He is Prefect, ha just without the errrr. as i sit here steadily dissin em i mean the demons in the minds of the children of the One and Only, God Who Is Kind, i hope that they depart, so we can All gaze upon The Divine, not like wine or watch, i aint lil wayne, just know that i feel like im the only one who is sane. because i AM NOT PERFECT, do not get the wrong message for that would hurt me, only He is, and He just wants some love from His Kids, but for some odd reason... we still choose to do the evil leeches bids, for i feel he has sucked to much from us, all of our blood, i mean soul, it has tucked from us, and right now He is aiming at it with a Big Ol' Blunderbuss. to shoot it and unleech it, from His Children's Soul's so one day maybe we can gaze upon, That Wonderful City Of Gold, and dont letit peak your in ter ests, for if you do your not getting whats bests, from this test that He has beset, for our minds to ponder and think on, maybe in some of the hearts out there this message is shining, for He is a Beacon of Light, to shine out all the evils, and end this ugly, hateful blight, that courses through our vains, that nasty garbage that makes us feel insane, because no one is living right, and for That NONE is sane. you can talk and sit there and chatter, but i pray and hope that none get fatter, and im not talking because of mcdonalds, im talking about your ego and pride, because We Alll NEED to push that aside, all we seem to do is breed hate and contempt, sitting there looking for another hurt sould to feed on, thinking it makes us content, but just know NOW people, lolol all your doing is letting the devil be your PIMP! ha ha ha i think that really funny, because in the words of man that just makes ya'll some ho's, and please forgive my trespasses my sisters and brothers, for my vulgar words, because i Did Not mean to hurt, He's just trying to keep our faces from being rubbed in the dirt. but it really shouldnt matter because we are mud, and from One we all came, so can i not call ya'll blood??? nah im not talking about them two glock shotta's, im talking bout from The One Who Has Always Got Us, not us as in the navy, i mean us as in the ones who might sit on that bus, the one going to school and to the ones who drool in class, and all of us who needs a kick in the, pause, ya'll know what i mean, im just sitting here trying not be obscene, all im trying to do is get the bigger picture, through ya'll minds so that maybe one day, we can All WALK IN THE LORDS WAY. forgive me if i make any of ya'll mad, if i do know that i Am sad, but how about ya'll just go to the store and go and grab on of them happy hefty bags, you know i meant glad if you didnt you are simple, and forgive me as i sit here and bust this pimple, lol sorry that was nasty just know that i didnt, and know that we are all fake, and its time for some rhino plasty, or however its spelled im just hoping some hearts will melt, like the plastic we are, and become melded into flesh, as i sit here and type in this Soul Food test, for if ya'll can't hear me then your hearts are so cold, forgive me as i trespass, because, uhm, i Am not trying to be bold, im just tryna through some fia atcha hearts, in the hopes that you may leave the Dark, ness not loch just in case thats watchu thought, all you gotta do is leave your flesh behind, and know that He is the one who Should Be Sought, out so we can drank From His Spout, cuz the Lord Knows, man it has been a drought. we are all so thirsty, but in order to be filled its The Lord who must come firsty x) just know that me and Him are going Stooopid, and for those who are real maaan i thoughtchu knew it. and if you dont i pray you haven't already blew it, up i mean your ego, like a balloon, just know right now i feel like taz boi, yup them looney toones, or tunes whichever you prefer, just know that He is Prefect, just without the err. and i say pre because He was always here, yes before you and me, but with Him i wanna letchu know that we can all be as pure, and as white as the snow, just like powder we can all be melted, i mean melded into the beings we were meant to be, so one day we may fly free as a dove, Right over the sea, so that we all can reach New Jerusalem, yup just right where we was all meant to be, that is the Golden City for those who did not, know, im just hoping that one day we can All be as pure as the snow, because the evil has taunted and flaunted and given us a show, to peak i mean perk up our ears and it, that leech i mean, gave us nothing but fears, fears of ourselves and one another, fears from our sisters and daughter, Father, and brothers, but we have a right to Fear the Living God, because to Him we have all become a sod, He is sorrowful and cries as we follow, the evil being, who was never meant to be followed, and i felt His pain at one point in time, yes i Am talking About the Divine, we both cried together, in my room, because of the little things we miss, something just as small as, a heartfelt kiss... for it is the little things that bring us the greatest joy, not some diamond chain, or a, wind up toy, the biggest thing of all that should, is His Love, should bring us the Greatest joy, in the world, for thats all it is man just cars and noise, all the long going our way, Missing the sweetest noise, zes ya'll know what i mean, im talking about the One who is Never obscene, for He is Just And Right, in each and every single way, and for our sins my borhters and sisters, we have to pay, but do not fret for it is never to late, I think we all need to call upon The Divine, and we should All go on a date, do not worry for on this date there is no rape, or murder, or hate, for that is of the devil, and Your Soul it will take, there is no worries once you follow Him, we should all be hand in hand as we walk down this path, called, life Never having to worry about no pain or strife, or for a bigger picture His Wrath, but ONLY IF WE DRINK FROM HIS PITCHER. for The All Powerful and Righteous Wrath, only comes when you stray from His Path, it is there to show us our wrongs...can you feel His Soul as i sit here and Sing His song? and with Him i will NEVER fall, because with my Brother, I will always Hear His Call. i say we but it is Him, who say these words to in the hopes, that those who have an Ear to listen may never Fall, into the Pit, all you have to do is have Faith, Follow The Ten, Believe, and never EVER Quit, for in order to gain His All Perfect and Good Graces, we have to eliminate ALL the Hate and evil, in all sorts of places, i have a feeling this song was wrote long before, just in His mind and now in mine, and i sing His song in the Hopes, that you follow Him and not any of these "popes" for no hope lies in them, lol and if you truly think aboutit that actually rhymed, just know that im thinking of Him, foremost, but ya'll too as i steadily write This Rhyme, it comes from above yup, Straight From the Divine, in the Hopes that one day ya'll can SEE, exactly it was that we was missing, so we can All fly over the sea. Man this thing is long but i should Say God, because this is His Rhyme, and not from a sod, like me or you, if you real you can feel its True, as His Sword aims at the hearts of His good, flying Straight and Through, lol i mean True, but them if you can follow my friend, all we gotta do is sing Praises and Thanksgiving to Him, until the very end, and give Him all of our love, Because WITHOUT HIM, ha There WOULD BE NO LOVE, all there would be is pain and suffering, and i hope that the ones who are, suffer, i mean acating, Might actually stop and take the time to sit there and be debating, against the devil of course, cuz all it wants to do is, lead us, right, or left, but straight off our course. Lord Please Forgive me, if i am being coarse just know that i am your back, and You Are My Horse, lol ya'll might think He's heavy but He's really not, and i Love Him till Death, i mean Life, cuz i have found It, but back to the point, because i HE HAS TAUGHT, never went to church or none of that, maybe when i was younger but none of that, for our minds our are churches, ha gotit backwards but i feel as tall as the burches, talking bout them trees man im over the seas man, just know i cant, wait, My Father, until You Kick Over My Can Man x) aw man i thoughit was funny, because he's One Cool Dude, and i am His, Bunny, i mean Collie, and know that as i, i mean He, but as i bark, that i have a Strong feeling, that i am playing my Part, or His i prefer the latter but the choice is yurs, because it is His Puzzle, and i am the last part, i cant be for certain because the Knowledge is His, but im just trying to bring His Black Sheep back, you know i mean His KIDS, He thoughtit was funny, But ya'll best Believe that He NOR i the first comes first, but neither one of us is No, pause, Dummy, lol but if you choose you can beat and bite, whatever you do just know it is out of spite, and i dont capitilize because its an evil word, just know me and HIM, are trying to end this wrongful blight, and saying these words i Hope that maybe, just maybe some can be given the Sight, that HE intended us to have, right, from Go, talking bout monopoly,lol but no no more, from the start maaaan all HE ever wanted was us to give our heart, which is HIS, because He gave to us, All that is HIS, HE just Wanted someone to talk to man, thats why HE made HIS Kids, HE was all alone, and then HE built, a Beautiful place for us, and HIM, to walk and talk all the while, just laughing and talking, seeing eachother smile =) because HE is our FATHER, He's not as mean ha as ya'll would believe, just know that HE TRULY IS ONE BENEVOLENT KING. lol ha ha i think this is funny, He knows what im talking about, cuz this is all of the top of the dome with barely a second to pause, Just Know the THE LION KING, Has Opened HIS Claws, Blessed be the children who took the time to listen, to the message that a, and The King is steadily dishin, i say a because i am one too, but know that im a servant, and from a Seed i did Grew, i dont care if it makes no sense to ya'll because i have heard the Lords Call, and they, they know who they are, are always listening, and as He types, through, me i have a feeling they are about to call, Prayer is the Best Wireless Connection X) aint no service down here got that type of Connection, i just hope that i get to see some of ya'll at that intersection, i mean Crossroads, bone thugz n harmony, they said it first, man thats the song man and if you feel their soul, then maybe you should hurt, because those bois on the streets back in the day, all they was doing was searching for some Peace, but in the streets, the oppressors, following the devil, have no love for us in the slums, just know that we All have a Holster and God Is our Gun, we dont need no metal, for The Lord our issues HE will settle, all you gotta do is Have some Faith, saying this in hope that some dont see any wraiths, talking demons people come now and please listen, as the Lord spits his song and these Words HE is dishin, out yup you getting it word of mouf, lol or mouth whichever you prefer just DONT follow that lowly snake, yup the one down south, it might try and offer pleasure and happiness butits all fake, HA what do ya'll expect from a lowly snake? remeber eve as she sat under that tree? sitting there thinking and feeling the breeze? the snake spoke in her Ear temptation it did bring, and after teel me WHO did she fear? she had a split second of happiness and thats all it can give, and after that she felt the WRATH which is ONLY HIS, lol i hope that ya'll see, the way we live people, it just wasn't meant to be, i have a feeling that there all up there laughing, with, not at me as i type out His message, and i pray ALMIGHTY FATHER, THE ONES WHO HAVE AN EAR TO LISTEN PLEASE FATHER PLEASE LET THE HEAR. and the ones who dont i pray you dont hit him hard, maybe just a little tap, just like Babe Ruth, on that baseball card x) Peace be with you my sisters and brothers, just know that HIS LOVE IS LIKE NO OTHER, GOD BLESS ALL WHO FINISHED, AND I PRAY YOUR SOULS NEVER, DIMINISH. ONE HEART IS ALL, AND WITH THAT HEART WE CAN NEVER FALL, lol i said i was finished, but i dont think HE is as you can tell this words are not mine, THEY COME FROM THE UPPER BEING, yup THE DIVINE!!! i think im going to cut Him short and please Forgive me, because i know HE could go all day, BECAUSE I CAN FEEL HIM IN ME.
what absurdity is this then you want to say that a person will escape hell if he believes in god..............................
then i think so all the terrorists and wrongdoers will escape HELL
In my opinion our conscious is the HELL, if you do wrong it will hurt you..... it is not going to see if u believe in GOD or NOT
I usually want to stay out of these types of debates, but I'm voting just to get the YES!! side off of 666 votes (that's just sick irony). Yes, I believe in God. I am a Christian, and I hate it when God and science are compared. I don't see why God couldn't have just set evolution in motion. Genisis says that God made Adam from the dirt and dust. That is exactly where the small mammals that we supposedly evolved from came from. :-o It makes you think doesn't it.
Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
Wow. There's not a lick of logic to your argument.
Have you watched Ricky Gervais talk about Noah's Ark. And how absolutely impossible it would be to get 2 of every species in to that ark. Thiink of all the different species in all the different continents. He's hilarious!
Nothing and no one can prove or disprove the existence of a divine being. If so, we wouldn't need this debate. In my mind these are just two examples of things that could not happen by chance. I think there has to be something/one bigger than all of us who has the "master plan" and is responsible for all of creation.
The most basic proof of God’s existence is simply what He has made. “For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that [unbelievers] are without excuse” (Romans 1:20). “The heavens declare the glory of God / And the firmament showeth His handiwork” (Psalm 19:1).
Bible quotes are never effective arguments. If your opponent believes the Bible is an infallible source of truth, you have no disagreement to begin with. If you opponent does not agree with you, he does not believe the Bible either, and the quote carries no weight.
Its arguments are all fallacious. It says the universe itself proves a god and then goes on to mangle and simplify what we know about physics and the big bang: That at the quantum scale causality breaks down so no first cause is necessary - and that the laws of the universe were structured different so as to allow many odd things. It is much simpler, says Ockham's razor, to suppose that the universe made itself when physics implies that it could've, or if that doesn't do it for you, that instead of invoking a unnecessarily infinite and intelligent first cause, invoke one with the only requirement: that it doesn't itself need a cause (again, not important because of quantum physics.)
[First Cause fallacy]
It than cites prophecy as the main evidence of Christianity, without acknowledging the explanations of vagueness, pattern seeking, inevitability, self fulfillment, and retrodiction. It also doesn't acknowledge the apparent prophecies of the Greek oracles, or the Koran, or individuals like Nostradamus (who Christians presumably reject for the same reason's I reject the bible's prophecies.) There is the other issue of innumerable unfilled prophecies that Jesus never did as promised in the Old Testament, and which keep many Orthodox Jews in anticipation for the true messiah.
The greatest scientist of this century, Albert Einstein saw clearly that the universe is designed and orderly therefore, it must be the result of a mind not merely a matter of bumping around randomly if space. Einstein put it like this, "The order of the universe reveals intelligence of such superiority that it overshadows all human intelligence." So for all of you nonbelivers, yes there is a God and it doesnt take the amount of intelligence that Einstein had to tell that. Have you ever seen a sunset? Have you ever seen a newborn baby? That is God!!! If the moon was 6 inches closer to the Earth(literally) we would have such crazy ocean current and tide variations that it would make human existance on earth impossible. On the other hand, if it were 6 inches further away, our weather patterns would be so extreme that, likewise, human existance would be impossible. If you think that that is all just one big coincidence, then I would seriously question your intelligence.
You're forgetting that humanity means nothing. We have observed 3000 galaxies, and that's only what we've seen. You're telling me that out of an estimated 500 billion galaxies, not to mention the possibility of there being more than one universe, that the chemical / physical reactions couldn't at least create another planet with life?
Remember that we're not even breaching the realms of other life, such as non-carbon based lifeforms- or for that matter, OTHER DIMENSIONS.
Think your statement over again.
been there done that - it is an entertaining read to see what people are willing to believe with sufficient unknowns.
for those who haven't gone back and read again with fresh eyes - here's a good example of of the fun you can have:
The serpent told the truth!!
re-read the garden of eden fable and you will see that:
God told Adam that the day he eats the fruit of that tree he will die
the serpent (who at that time had feet) said No you won't die, you will learn the difference between good and evil
eve and adam ate the apple
THEY DID NOT DIE! Adam lived 930 more years
* they learned the difference between good and evil - just like the serpent said (and like the name of the tree would suggest)
Moral of the story: God lied! the serpent told the truth!
to cut it of at the pass for those who say that after eating the apple they became destined to die, keep reading - there was also a tree of life in the garden (the reason they were kicked out) which would not be necessary if they were going to live forever from the beginning.
I believe in God 100%. He is more real than every breath we take, he is more solid than the food we eat. By "real" and "solid" I refer to reality, for nothing would be without his hand sustaining it.
There is an intelligent design in this universe and the love of an Almighty God that was shown when he sent his own son to sacrifice himself on behalf of those who were in bondage to sin, shame, and death.
Yes, I believe in God. Quite so.
As I see it, you must either believe that someone or something has always existed. Either there has always been this universe/multiverse, or at least the physical capacity for it (even if it continues to expand and collapse); or, you believe that some eternal entity (God) has always existed.
Studying physics, I see no reason to believe that any sort of matter or energy would have always existed, and the answer as to where it came from still remains unanswered.
Studying philosophy, on the other hand, there are a great deal of questions surrounding life, souls and free will. What makes an assortment of atoms or molecules a living thing? Why do we feel alive?
There's a great deal more uncertainty surrounding life than matter. I relate the uncertainty surrounding life with the uncertainty surrounding "the beginning" or "all that is." Therefore, I'm inclined to believe that someone has always been present, not necessarily something.
Everyone must agree that there is someone that controls the world and everything.In everything there must be an owner or someone who controls it.Even in this debate there must be a subject that is posted,then people post arguments.The one who controls everything is called god.God is just a name given by human beings but for sure GOD EXISTS!!!
Yes, simply because science cannot and will not ever correctly predict the end of one's life. What controls one's fate? Science, I think not. It is some unknown force that decides why the person with barely a scratch dies and cancer cannot kill another. Everyday you walk out the door or go to sleep at night there is no guarantee that you will see tomorrow. When science can predict the exact second of my demise, then science I shall worship. Until then God has my full attention and respect.
Do you believe anybody here exist? These are only words and there is no proof of human life on this site. We can try to convince someone we are real, but reality is that no one is going to kick that chair out from under you. How do you prove you exist? To say some words are true and others not, one can not do. The Bible is as real as the words here, both written by mankind.
What makes one die from a minor accident and one live from a major accident? When the exact minute of my demise can be told, I will have found my God.
Myself as a christian and all others know he is real. You realy have to believe in him to see the effects of what he has done. For example i was really sick and because i got concussed and i was vomiting every where and my mum a christian prayed for gods help and i was healed and it felt like nothing had happened. Also i got my memory back as well and the doctors didn't understand what happened but my mum did.Also when a priest was praying in a church the steeple cracked and he was flung 10 meters [he wasn't hurt] across the ground and everyone started crying and this is usually the effect of gods presence. These are true stories so all u Christians out would no what I'm talking about.If u don't believe in god start believing and good things will happen.
I BELIEVE IN GOD BECAUSE MAN COULD NOT HAVE CREATED HIM SELF NEITHER FELT UNEXPLAINABLE SITUATIONS IN HIS LIFE WHILE THE BIBLE GIVES DEFINITIONS AND REVELATIONS OF THE LONG TERMED LIFE OF MAN KIND.
BESIDE WHO IS THERE ANY ONE WHO DARES TO HAVE MADE OR CAN CHANGE IS LIFE IN HIS OWN WAYS.
MY OPINION IS THAT MAN IS SCAR THAT WHAT HE HAS DONE MAY NOT BE RIGHT AND THATS WHY HE IS TRYING TO ESCAPE FROM THE TRUTH.
I first want to clarify im an athiest and i beleive in God. I'm more commonly referred to as a panthiest. Which incorporates everything athiests belleive but by the same token all religions are correct when not taken as being literal.
Note: By god i mean a man in the sky or any other conception of god, even a higher power is being generous, its more like a form of spiritual athiest where you beleive the universe to be alive( i dont like this word as a stone can be alive in the sense that i mean it) in some way. Gos is a convenient word to use as it is instantly recogniseable.
There is a great deal of discussion as to the conflict between science and religion. In reality, I am still striving to understand how science "disproves" God. I think that what people generally mean is that scientific evidence contradicts the Bible; however, I don't think that that is the case. The Bible, particularly the Old Testament, needs to be read within the proper historical and cultural context - when this takes place, you realize that you shouldn't take everything written in the Bible literally or at face value. When you read the Bible in-context, it seems a lot more credible.
Also, people so often ignore history and archaeological evidence, which lends support to the Bible, especially when it comes to the writings of Luke in the New Testament.
People are always free to believe what they want to believe, but I believe that the evidence points toward God.
Shitt who u think u are sir, I BELIEVE IN GOD AND WIL ALWAYSZX WILL NO MATTER WHAT!!Y DO U EVEN HAVE TO ASK,AND IF U DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD PLEASE ITS UR PROBLEM,Y DO U HAVE TO POST IT HERE ASKING PEOPLE ABOUT IT,OF COURSE EVERY INDIVIDUAL PERSON SHOULD BELIEVE IN GOD, BECAUSE THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD,
(THERES NO GOD BUT ALLAH!!!!!!!!!!!)
While there is not evidence of God existing, there is also no evidence of him NOT existing. The truth of the world is too subjective to give a definite answer based on evidence. Even science is not the full answer as it is very subjective itself: it gives clues depending on the person who is making the observations, just like in the Bible. Science is not fact, while neither is faith. This in itself should already tell you that pitting the two against each other is rather pointless.
looking at the debates aganist God is really something to think abt. knowin him is he ebst thing that occurs in a person's life, that just dumb, believe or not he exists and is the reason u wake up every morning. Dont believe me( try him) its a shame how the world is in a great chaos n regards to him..(yes HE IS REAL!)LIKE IT OR NOT :P
I really wish there were 3-sided debates and I could say, "sort of". I believe that we don't know. I like the idea of a benevolent force in the universe, so I choose to believe that. But I am open-minded enough to admit the possibility that I am entirely wrong.
Believing in God is fine, but believing you know about the nature of God and how he created the world is silly. Nobody can know these things, and so many different religions purport to know, but give such different accounts, that we are better off admitting it's up in the air.
I hate seeing bumper stickers or t-shirts saying, "Do you know where you'll go when you die?" No, I don't, and neither do you.
Side: Sort of
Where do i start?...I don't believe that there is a 'god', however, I do believe there is an energy of some kind out in the world. And my question is why does god have to be a man? Why can't people understand the meaning 'it'? No one has met god so how would anyone know? People get way to caught up in the whole god thing. Its over-rated. I'm not saying all Christians, but a lot of them don't see the other side of god and religion. They just practice their religion not understanding the meaning of Judaism or the Islamic religion.
Side: Sort of
Because God is the one how created it's world that we are standing,If you read the Holy Bible he Bible describes him and if we look at the fact we study in Science they said that the was made from dust and what about other thing's like rivers mountian human.And how human born someone said that we are ancestor of monkey but where does monkey come from if not God how created everything then who did ? and how about your religion don't you have a God!
Science cannot prove whether God is real or is not real.Of course,no one has ever really "seen him" to prove that he is real,but who knows?You'd have to be able to be God himself to prove that the fact if he was real or not.But he might just be.Think about it;humans never evolved on their' own.Who created us humans in the first place?I know some of you may be thinking,'Well,we evolved from animals'.But then who has created animals?After all,none of us who are living today has discovered the first people on earth.But the thing that is confusing me right here is,then if God created animals and humans,then who created God?As I said,no one knows.But admit it,there has to be someone up there that's watching over us.Because if there was not,it'd be pretty hard to survive.Yes,humans can save their' selves',but many times people survive things when it seems almost impossible to survive them.So therefore,God just may be real.
When my grandma had cancer she saw a dream where her parents called her to heaven. next month she died. Her husband, my grandfather never believed in heaven and thought that it was just a stupid dream but not the holly vision. In some years he was very ill and surprisingly he started seeing my grandma and her parents calling him too. At last he believed. For more in his dream he saw that someone was holding their hands. Then his voice whispered to my grandpa: "Dear, now it's your time. This spring. Just wait".
My grandfather suffered from his illness and it was very hard for him to take it. That spring he died. The minute before he died he said to his doctor: "I see you, Nelya (my grandma), I see you all, and I see that man. It's easier now. I go forward".
Who was that man? Why they both could see the ghosts? Where heaven came from? Why even my grandfather believed and saw that too? Isn't it a proof of that God exists?
It is and that is way I believe now, I believe in God!
never had a reason to doubt
- it contradicts history ref
- it makes unfulfilled prophesies ref
- it makes self-contradictory claims about God (e.g. is it possible for an all-powerful god to make a stone that god cannot lift?)
- it tells similar stories that existed in close by regions (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
there certainly is "reason to doubt", you just choose not to
I've believed in him since I was young
Do you still believe in everything you believed in when you were young (Santa Claus, tooth fairy, that the earth is basically flat), etc.? If not, what convinced you otherwise?
Do you still believe in everything you believed in when you were young (Santa Claus, tooth fairy, that the earth is basically flat), etc.? If not, what convinced you otherwise?
My parents actually never told me about Santa Claus, or the tooth fairy so I never really believed in them. I only found out about that kinda stuff when I was older, and became exposed to Western media. By then I was too old to believe in that. God, however, I was told about since I was around 8 or 9 years old, and believed in Him since then.
Belief in gods who show of a lot and like crushing mortals to dust? No
Belief in gods who are boastful and proud? No
Belief in gods who demand sacrifices every second day? No
Belief in a god who says that he shall have no other god before him? No
Belief in a god who demands you to make unnecessary sacrifices? No
Belief in a positive energy which circulates throughout the universe, breathing life into all living forms? A resounding yes!
Peace with all.
I don't understand why people are hell bent on believing that science and religion cannot ever agree. I will not vouch for all religions, but I know that they can definitely coexist. And, for those who argue that the more you study science the less you believe, I would like to raise them the words of Albert Einstein:
It is true that convictions can best be supported with experience and clear thinking. On this point one must agree unreservedly with the extreme rationalist. The weak point of his conception is, however, this, that those convictions which are necessary and determinant for our conduct and judgments cannot be found solely along this solid scientific way.
For the scientific method can teach us nothing else beyond how facts are related to, and conditioned by, each other. The aspiration toward such objective knowledge belongs to the highest of which man is capable, and you will certainly not suspect me of wishing to belittle the achievements and the heroic efforts of man in this sphere. Yet it is equally clear that knowledge of what it is does not open the door directly to what should be. One can have the clearest and most complete knowledge of what is, and yet not be able to deduct from that what should be the goal of our human aspirations. Objective knowledge provides us with powerful instruments for the achievements of certain ends, but the ultimate goal itself and the longing to reach it must come from another source. And it is hardly necessary to argue for the view that our existence and our activity acquire meaning only by the setting up of such a goal and of corresponding values. The knowledge of truth as such is wonderful, but it is so little capable of acting as a guide that it cannot prove even the justification and the value of the aspiration toward that very knowledge of truth. Here we face, therefore, the limits of the purely rational conception of our existence.
if you need to believe in someone who will trust you and always be by you side at all times you should choose god.you should choose to believe in what you believe in not what everybody else believes in.i believe in god and nobody can change what i believe in.and they shouldnt be able to change what you believe in.
Yes, of course . You merely use your senses to determine that you can see, hear, feel, smell, taste and you have emotions as well. All of this is a part of your existence. But this is not how we perceive God in Islam and in other religions. We can look to the things that He has created and the way that He cares for things and sustains us, to know that there is no doubt of His existence.
Think about this the next time that you are looking up at the moon or the stars on a clear night; could you drop a drinking glass on the sidewalk and expect that it would hit the ground and on impact it would not shatter, but it would divide up into little small drinking glasses, with iced tea in them? Of course not.
And then consider if a tornado came through a junkyard and tore through the old cars; would it leave behind a nice new Mercedes with the engine running and no parts left around? Naturally not.
Can a fast food restaurant operate itself without any people there? That's crazy for anyone to even think about.
After considering all of the above, how could we look to the universe above us through a telescope or observe the molecules in a microscope and then think that all of this came about as a result of a "big bang" or some "accident?"
I choose to believe in God which made me completely unafraid of dying so there is something to look forward to after death, but there are always possibilities that he is not and it is all just a fictional story that has been passed down through generations and has been twisted a bit like chinese whispers. I don't think that people should devote their lives to him because he would want you to live your life freely like i don't believe in like not cutting your hair and wearing a headscarf etc because he made you that way so everyone can see your beauty - not to cover it up. So you shouldn't devote your life to a myth or legend which may or may not be true. The bigger argument would be: God or Science?
"God" is not an acceptable answer for everything. It's drawing a line in the sand and saying that you need to have faith to cross. The Bible doesn't do an adequate job of explaining things either. There's hardly any part of the Bible that isn't contradicted by some other part. If a math book told us that 1 + 1 = 2 on one page and then three pages later said that 1 + 1 = 3, would we use that book? Would you build bridges or fly planes based on what we learned from that book? If a medical book told us on page 5 that the heart pumps blood through the body and then on page 205 said that the liver did that, would you want a surgeon operating on you to use that book as his guide? Yet we are told that we are entrusting our "eternal souls" to the teachings of the Bible. If we fail to properly comprehend this contradictory useless old book, we risk being punished in Hell forever. Because "God" loves us so much.
I have friends who are very smart who say that they believe what they find in the Bible and it always amazes me. Even without explaining things scientifically, anyone who actually reads the Bible with open eyes and more importantly. an open mind, can't help but walk away knowing that the Bible is just a book. It's a collection of roman a clef fables that have no relationship to the real world.
If the Bible is really our "instruction manual", everything should be taken as writ and God, in the words of Lewis Black, is a prick.
The bible was created for a guide on the ways in which to conduct your life, like a moral compass. It was not made as a "shipping building guide" or anything else that includes step by step craftsmanship. If you had a higher view of God you would understand why God can't be with us for eternity. God is perfect! That means he has done everything ever out of love. Not lust, greed, manipulation, or hatered, but purely out of love. I challenge you to try and do things for other people today and see how hard it is to do.
Side: the bible is a moral compass
A moral compass? Have you READ the Bible? Try reading through Genesis and Exodus and see exactly HOW moral it is (Examples of Biblical Immorality: Innkeeper letting his daughters get raped instead of sending out the Angels, genocide that's ordered by God, infanticide that's committed by God)
What a pile of ridiculousness. The bible was not created all at once, and it's many authors definitely didn't have just one intention. All that God is perfect love talk is just utter white noise. I doubt you even understand what you said. You certainly didn't make a point.
People do not need God or religion to do good things for others. And NO, it is not that hard to do good things for others. Your admission of that proves you need to coaxed by religion to do those good things.
While I agree that the idea f the bible as a moral compass is far more palatable than as a specific description of real-life events, I think it should be noted that people can be good without the Bible, and people can also be terrible within Biblical law.
I'm not a Christian, and I still know what is right and what is wrong. Do not hurt others- do not steal, violate, kill, etc. I don't need a Bible to guide my actions, and yet my actions are still those of a good person.
Dear Sir, With all due respects. The question was Do you believe in God? and not "Do you believe in the BIBLE that it is the TRUTH?"
Thanks you for your valuable inputs though. However, get your facts right before writing vitriol. I suggest if you pls read the bible once with 'open eyes' and more importantly with a 'open mind', you will understand that actually there is no word that contradicts.
God Bless you. (needless to say i believe in GOD)
....one of the seven deadly sins is greed.
Why do you worship God? Obviously not because you "love" him, it's that you want a paradise in the afterlife (or you want it after the "rapture' (rapture means rape in old french...have fun)). If God does exist and GAVE you this life, would'nt it be greedy to ask for anymore than that???
The second you agree to this religion and let it into you're life, you've already broke one of the MAJOR rules.
Hard to show? I'm assuming you've actually read the Bible. Try looking at even just the first two chapters of Genesis. The first chapter tells one version of how the world was created and then the second chapter starts over with a different version. In the first version, God creates plants, then animals, then man and woman. In the second version, God creates man first, then plants, and then animals so that man would not be alone. God creates woman last as a mate for man. The "bible full of contradictions" line IS an easy statement to make because it IS easy to show.
Here is a list of 398 contradictions in the Bible:
(Grrr... this site keeps adding a space after the "http://" and another one before "contra". I reported the bug. You'll have to take the extra spaces out manually for now I guess.)
Bible defenders remind me of contract lawyers. You can read anything you want into any document if you do the necessary mental gymnastics.
"God doesn't just put the information you want out there; you have to want to find the answers."
This could be rephrased as, "In order to understand the Bible, you must exhibit a confirmation bias."
"if the bible was a book of fairy tales, it wouldn't be the most printed book ever, it wouldn't change millions of lives"
False. These facts could simply indicate that it's a very compelling book of fairy tales.
I almost forgot the best one. What were Jesus' last words? You would think that might be important to get right, but out of the 4 gospels - Jesus has 3 different last words.
Matthew 27:46 -
About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" - which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Mark 15:34 -
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" - which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Luke 23:46 -
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.
John 19:30 -
When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
Meaning that if you want to, it can mean anything you want to. There are no hidden meanings in the bible. If anything most people have no understanding of the bible because they don't understand the historical context when each of the books were written. Like how there is no record of Hebrew slaves in Egypt, but we know the old testament was first solidified in Babylon when they were slaves there. To say the bible is "written by God" immediately discredits you in any real discussion about the bible due to your own ignorance.
god created animals then man and woman in Gen 1:24-27
but he created man first, then animals, then woman in Gen 2:18-22
God told Noah to take a male and female of every animal Gen 6:19-20 and four verses later says to bring 7 pairs of every clean animal and 2 of animals that are not clean Gen 7:2
Even the lineage of Jesus doesn't get further than Joseph and Mary without contradicting itself
more on lineage (www.duncanproductions.com)
That is a ridiculous argument and every atheists on this board is proving you wrong, unless you beleiee we are all off murdering people.
Religion is the cause of too much hatred and death. Without it, I truly believe that mankind can become more civilized. Unfortunately, it will take thousands of years for the ignorance to be driven out of our world. Today, religion is the root of evil!
I don't want to go with an ad ignorantum, but can you DISPROVE the existence of some sort of creator?
One might have great difficulty in disproving that which does not exist.
Without the fear of hell or another sort of retribution, humanity could easily be swayed to pursue acts of evil.
So fear of divine punishment, in your view, is the sole motivator for not doing atrocious acts?
So because something's complicated means god exists? There's no evidence god exists, and never will be any. Everything that's here can be explained by evolution and chaos. You guys can keep arguing the same baseless points, but I'm not going for it until a big glowing dude in a toga steps out from the clouds and does something crazy, like turn the ocean into bubble gum for a day.
I affirm this, we forget the logical flaw of attributing somethings complexity to God. "Well, it looks really complicated, THEREFORE something beyond our realm of physics must have done it". It's a very vague premise that if something currently unexplainable happened that something beyond all explanation did it.
Note also that words like "complicated" and "beautiful" are self-assessed and subjective. It's statistically a random chaotic mess, it's easier to gradually learn to like something then have the entire universe arranged specifically to our enjoyment.
If it is impossible to prove God's existence, it is also impossible to disprove God's existence. Just because we can form an explanation for the workings of our world does not mean that the underlying order that we, as humans, study does not exclude the possibility that God set that order out for us to discover. Perhaps evolution is a process that does occur, there's no reason to say that God didn't set the whole thing in motion. The same can be said for the Big Bang.
First off, There is no reason to disprove God's existence, because his existence was never proven. Science doesn't go around disproving every unproven possibility.
Secondly, without even citing the proof of the Big Bang Theory that exists....The Big Bang Theory is just that...A THEORY....no one says "the God Theory", they just that god definately exists.
True, we don't know how we were created, but believing that someone/something just poofed us into existence even though there is proof that the earth is older than the bible teaches is just plain crazy. There is clear proof that we evolved. Where is your clear proof that God created the world?
That's not a cop out. Evolution isn't meant to explain the origins of the first life, it is meant to explain diversity and adaptation. Calling it one of evolutions cop-outs is as absurd as saying "General Relativity's major cop-out is that it doesn't explain why the sky is blue."
Abiogenesis is the topic of how the first replicators emerged.
On two levels. Lack of logical possibility and evidence, and secondly, the overwhelming presence of alternatives.
We've all experienced real-life probability before, it took about 14.7 trillion (or some ridiculous number of) years for chaotic matter to cool down and form life on our planet and Earth is only going to be around for a few more millenia. Not very miraculous to me. I'm sure we're all versed on evolution. We've observed the processes of which in nature, and there's a clear fossil record which tells a story untouched by mankind millions of years back. And in case you're going to refute this with the incredulous statement that "life came from nothing". That's not the case, it gradually developed over a LOOOONG time, and the basic compounds that make us exist all over nature and are generally stable. Ironically, Christians believe that we were pressed from dirt.
This eliminates the need for a God to have intervened. Then there is the supposition that a physically impossible being just magically created us, with no possible ability of knowing this except that people from 1000's of years ago who were studying, at best, witchcraft, alchemy, and astrology (not astronomy) were telling the absolute truth when we simultaneously discredit 2,999 other religions based on the very same credibility.
This really has nothing to do with facts and evidence at all. We are trapped into believing in God and Heaven because we don't like the alternative of permanent death, that noone is watching over us, and that you've wasted your life in Church. This principle of "faith" is simply the emotional refusal to grasp what appears to be a harsh reality.
We live in a very sheltered country of America. I'm not cynical, but we swim in water while people in Africa (mostly Christians by the way) are begging for it while being slaughtered, we work effortlessly while near-slaves at home and abroad manufacture our basic goods while we exploit a useless service sector economy. It is to be expected of us to gate ourselves with our dream world.
I accept no. 1. Morals aren't that hard to figure out. 2. I'm okay with dying because living forever, if you think about it, would be true hell and it is the fear of death and limited exposure to life that makes life so precious. 3. Having accepted these things, I don't really need a God nor credit one.
this god character(s) was made just to make people feel more secure about the things they cannot explain hundreds and thousands of years ago humans could not explain what some things were and why they happened it is just to cover up peoples fears of the world and giving them something to use to shove in peoples faces trying to prove that they are the smarter and the nonbelievers should be the scared ones even though most of the time they are the ones with the actual answers
I don't believe in God if you write it with a capital "G". That implies a proper noun, a name, something or someone distinct, defined - known. It's like is said in the Tao Te Ching, "The name that can be named is not the eternal Name".
The reason that the concept of God exists is precisely because humans, conscious of their own selves and their own death, are aware of their lack of answers to the most fundamental questions. I believe God evolved in man's thinking to be a storehouse for a the answers that satisfied man's need for answers about 'life after death', 'the purpose of life', etc. Without such answers I truly believe the burden of consciousness would have been and still would be impossible to bear.
If you consider god with a small "g", I believe to the center of my being. We are humble creatures, making many things, doing many things, knowing many things, but essentially misguided or unguided. The only answer is humility, the worst sin is hubris - the sin of thinking we know God which can only lead to the most prideful, disastrous results.
Interesting. But then, this could go for ANYTHING really. Even in science, the 'evidence' used to support a claim is actually more subjective than people usually believe it is. Science has proven in the past to be just as fickle when supported as Faith has. Therefore, while faith can be dismissed without evidence, so can science, and therefore it leaves everything for speculation by the individual.
I do not believe in any god or gods. I am a strong atheist, because I have never come across a definition of god that could possibly exist. There is no reason to believe that the gods of any bibles are real, and many reasons why we know they aren't. A being outside of existence is by definition non-existent. If a being is existing, it must be detectable. In order to be detectable, it must be logically consistent.
The simplest explanation is that everything came together by random chance? really? if there was a perfect being, time could be meaningless to him. He could come to be from the husk of a dying universe and Time paradox himself to the beginning where he set the whole thing off again.
Honestly, until I see proof of the existence of any God, I will remain with my opinion that there is no God. This doesn't mean that God can't exist to me, it's just that I won't believe any God exists until I see it with my own two eyes, or see some pretty damning evidence that disproves the more factual and evident theory of Evolution.
Authors worth reading on this matter: Sam Harris/Richard Dawkins/Christopher Hitchens/Bart Ehrman
A few items that have helped me form my opinion that God is unknowable if it exists at all:
- The Christian god - initially formed in a time where most people were illiterate and believed that the earth was flat. (Both Jesus and Mohammad were illiterate, if they existed)
- The stories of Jesus/Gospels were passed by word of mouth for first 35-40 years before written by Mark(some gospels up to 65 years after Jesus death) 35-65 years of whisper-down-the-lane can make "He Raised up our spirits and gave us reason to have hope in the Jewish god" become "He Rose from the dead"
- Bible pointed to as reference for "what God wants/is/was" and so full of holes and contradictions its no wonder there are approximately 38000 denominations or different ways to worship the same god.
- if there is a personal god, and it spoke to so many people as is written about in the Bible, why not directly continue to speak to All? A personal god that would allow injustices as those found happening around the world to dying children could only be a devil.
- If you are all powerful (and a loving god) why not create a universe where there is free will but no suffering. Why would a god need to set up tests for its creations to show their love for it?
- In answer to most of the Apologetics I've heard I often want to respond as Joseph Campbell did: "What's the value of faith if god is provable?"
-The old testament is filled with evils incurred upon believers/women/children. It doesn't shine a loving light on what the Christian god is capable of, and certainly isn't a god worthy of worship. The new testament is supposed to be a great way to warm up the old testament, yet Jesus says loads o things like 'leaving your family and follow' me that again...make me question what people really know and are believing in when they say they believe in the Christian god.
I forget which book its from but all Christians are atheists. They just believe in one less god than I do.
And last...although this was a quickie list...take a listen to Julia Sweeney's "letting go of God" so funny and revealing.