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27
39
Good idea turned bad. Hell yeah!!!
Debate Score:66
Arguments:53
Total Votes:74
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 Good idea turned bad. (24)
 
 Hell yeah!!! (24)

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Do you need feminism?

Good idea turned bad.

Side Score: 27
VS.

Hell yeah!!!

Side Score: 39
4 points

If "feminism" were really aimed at improving the lives of women (notice the movement is called "feminism," not "the western women's movement," so since women live all over the world, it is a global movement, at least in name), it would not be concerned at all with the plight of American women, and the last thing they would be concerned with is women getting whistled at in the street. In fact, if they were concerned with the plight of women, "feminists" would be focused on subsaharan Africa, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia to name a few places.

If the movement were truly aimed at egalitarian ends, it would not be called "feminist," it would be called "humanist." Labeling the movement after women makes it a "pro-women's movement," not a "equality for everyone" movement, but as I've pointed-out, it is not aimed at women's issues. So with that in mind...

What does modern "feminism" actually do for society today? Women are now legal equals to men. Yes, I understand that there is some discrimination against women (in the workplace in particular), but women are not "oppressed" in the US. So, with that being said, "feminism" is aimed at shadenfreude. What are the issues that "feminism" is aimed at:

Women having control over their own bodies (they already have that).

"Sexual assault awareness," which is framed as a "women's issue" despite the fact that more men are sexually assaulted in the US than women, according to some studies. So, again, if "feminism" were actually aimed at equality across the genders, sexual assault and rape would be framed as an "issue concerning humanity."

I was driving down the freeway the other day, and I saw a billboard that said something about, "heart disease is the #1 killer of women." That's not true. Heart disease is the #1 killer of human beings. "Feminists" took something that affects all people, and turned it into a "woman's issue. If "feminists" really cared about equality, they would frame EVERY ISSUE as a "human issue" rather than a "woman's issue." There are no woman's issues anymore. For that reason, classical feminism is dead, and now we're dealing with an extreme brand of feminism that is aimed at swinging the pendulum the other way, and profiting off the misfortune of others, rather than equality for the genders.

Side: Good idea turned bad.
J-Roc77(70) Disputed
2 points

We seem to have pretty close stances on some issues but here there seems to be some distance between us. You seem to lean heavily on the fallacy of relative privation in this argument.

it would not be concerned at all with the plight of American women,...if they were concerned with the plight of women, "feminists" would be focused on subsaharan Africa, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia to name a few places.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacyofrelativeprivation

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Notasbadas

I like smbc's take on this fallacy but I can't find it. It ends with a character telling the other she wont listen to any suggestions unless it is about saving babies.

You don't need to dismiss negative aspects that affect your life just because others have it worse. Taking action in areas that have more equality than others is in not necessarily exclusionary of other groups, in fact it is quite the opposite. Groundwork laid by minority rights groups the world over help lay the ground work for those groups that are struggling worse than others. This even holds true for groups that are not necessarily linked, just look at how LBGT movements have used portions of the black movement to their advantage.

Women are now legal equals to men. debatable Yes, I understand that there is some discrimination against women (in the workplace in particular), but women are not "oppressed" in the US.

We can forgo the legal claim, it is not important to my point. You acknowledge there is a social discrepancy in the equality of men and women but "oppressed" bit is another use of relative privation.

So, again, if "feminism" were actually aimed at equality across the genders, sexual assault and rape would be framed as an "issue concerning humanity."

You seem to classify feminism as a superiority movement where women and mens roles in power switch, later on you restate this with your pendulum bit. I disagree and feel this is more of an issue of loss of privilege and how societies mainstream perceives that feeling.

From your quote above I switched out feminism with black movements.

"If black movements were concerned with equality across the races they would concern it with equality across humanity."

Clearly there is differences in the needs of black equality that differs with location as compared to the needs across humanity. Addressing their nuanced concerns is the same as above; not exclusionary to the rest of humanity and not a pull for "swinging the pendulum" the other way.

Your rape comparison is also clearly different in how the sexes are affected by rape on a social level. Do men fear getting raped on their way to their cars after work? Are men targeted as common as women with date rape drugs? Is the social stigma for women and men similar? Are men who are raped questioned on the authenticity of the rape? The only studies I can find that back the claim that men are raped more than women are studies using data from prisons. Clearly bars, work, parking lots etc. are not prisons. Men and women have different environments that their rapes are likely to take place and women cannot hide (rather should not have to) from society. With so many differences what good comparing numbers??

Here is my point; Men and women have different, but both terrible, social stigmas and social situations that deal with rape. Smoothing out the differences by saying humanism can cover it is blind to the history and the reason there are these minority movements.

It is like saying "we don't need black movements, we have humanism, we don't need advocates for the disabled we have humanism, we don't need feminism..."

Lumping things together that have different needs under humanism hasn't gone well historically for minority movements the past couple hundred years. These minority movements are reactionary movements, if humanism were filling the gaps there would be no need for other movements. To be clear I am saying Humanism/feminism are not mutually exclusive. A venn diagram of both cam encompass much of each other. We are diverse groups it is ok to specialize in areas of differences as the larger view cannot focus on the needs of all within such a broad spectrum.

Modern feminism has been directed at acknowledging the differences between men and women both socially and individually, the goal is bringing the issues to light where society is unnecessarily directed towards the benefit of a group that results in negative repercussions towards women.

Side: Hell yeah!!!
Rotbart(101) Disputed
1 point

I just want you to know that I spent 20 minutes typing a very well-cited, well formed counter argument to yours, and the website went down as I posted it. I am not going to type that again, but just know I did respond.

Side: Good idea turned bad.
1 point

Feminism. What is it really? It's the promotion of women's rights, with little consideration given to men's rights, to make women and men equal. This was the case when it was first thought up as an idea, when men actually had more rights than women.

Feminism was needed back before the several amendments making us equal were put into place, and laws were made to prevent unequal treatment.

Side: Good idea turned bad.
J-Roc77(70) Disputed
2 points

Feminism. What is it really? It's the promotion of women's rights, ....Feminism was needed back before the several amendments making us equal were put into place, and laws were made to prevent unequal treatment.

Well that seems a rather incomplete take on feminism, just focusing on legal rights bit. Feminism, like other minority movements also focuses on social equalities. I can't really think of any movement; political, racial, sexual, that does not advocate for social apects of the groups.

fem·i·nism

ˈfeməˌnizəm/

noun

the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

synonyms:the women's movement, the feminist movement, women's liberation, female emancipation,women's rights; 

informalwomen's lib

"a longtime advocate of feminism"

Saying because there are laws in place for equal treatment therefore there is no need advocating for equal treatment is incredibly naive. How has that worked out for many minority groups? There still seems to be quite a bit of social disparity that needs to be addressed despite having laws in place.

Side: Hell yeah!!!
Cartman(18192) Disputed
1 point

Should the NAACP disband?

Side: Hell yeah!!!
1 point

Im gonna keep this simple. I personally don't need feminism, nor does anyone else in America or any other country with equal rights. People in countries that have extreme sexism issues do need feminism, or maybe egalitarianism.

Side: Good idea turned bad.
1 point

If feminists started to focus more on men's issues and being rational, feminism would totally be a good thing. However, rational non- man hating feminists are very rare in the modern feminist sphere. Feminists now complain about stupid stuff like catcalls and manspreading.

Side: Good idea turned bad.

Feminism is still very much needed. It's true that, per legislation, we are equal now- but legislation only works when there is an overwhelming weight of public support behind it. It doesn't take a majority, or even a particularly large minority- even a relatively small minority that ignores a law renders it effectively unenforceable; see alcohol and marijuana prohibition for easy examples here. We literally do not have anywhere near the jail capacity nor manpower to incarcerate every single person who uses marijuana illegally, nor do we have such for those who would use alcohol illegally were it banned.

Which isn't to suggest that the problem is that there is a sizeable minority that directly opposses the idea of gender equality (though I'm certain a small minority opposed to such exists). When we talk about gender equality we aren't talking about legislating an activity that someone may or may not take part in; we are talking about legislating a factor that many might otherwise use in their decision making process. A person can quite easily treat a person unfairly due to their sex without even consciously knowing they are doing so, much less doing so intentionally. Only with active, conscious effort can this effect be suppressed to a level that would effect true equality within our society. While some may be willing to make that effort, there is a certain percentage of both men and women that simply see men and women as being unequal, for any number of reasons. I truly believe that many more people today see men and women as being equal as have previously, but to effect a true state of equality, we would need an overwhelming majority of our population to see both sexes as being equal, and we're nowhere close to that yet. I don't have hard numbers, but my observations strongly suggest that those women who see themselves as equal to men are still not a majority; much less an overwhelming one across both sexes.

Feminism has essentially accomplished most of it's goals insofar as legislation was concerned, but legislation was never their 'real' enemy- the real enemy is the simply belief that they are inferior by default. A social problem, not a legal one at this stage, with a long way to go yet; the feminist movement is definitely still needed.

Side: Hell yeah!!!

Feminism is the radical concept that women have rights. :)

Side: Hell yeah!!!
Atrag(5666) Clarified
4 points

Just to clarify.. she means they have rights as long as they don't conflict with the interests of a 36 cell organism implanted in her uterus - in which case fuck the woman. Wooow! Woman power!

Side: Good idea turned bad.
SitaraMusica(536) Clarified
1 point

Killing unborn children is not the answer. .

Side: Good idea turned bad.
ghostheadX(1105) Clarified
2 points

Is it the concept that women have rights or the movement to get women rights. If what your saying is true, then we've already achieved feminism and we don't need a movement to support it.

Side: Good idea turned bad.
SitaraMusica(536) Clarified
1 point

We still have a long way to go. .

Side: Good idea turned bad.
2 points

Some interesting takes on this thread, for sure. But, I think there's some misunderstanding. First, being a huge MLK fan, I have to say I think some folks didn't get MLK. Some people do see him as a black activist, but MLK didn't promote only black rights. His vision was a world of true equality where blacks didn't yet have the same rights as some others. It's an important difference. MLK promoted peaceful social change and love rather than division and anger.

Feminism is by definition sexist. Equality isn't. The flaw began in the very beginning of the movement where blame was assigned to men for the social condition of the time. The movement was spun in the women as victim model. Women share equal responsibility for socialization, and we socialized everyone to put women on a pedestal. Women were shut out of the workplace? Modern spin. Women were privileged. Affluence was defined by pampering women. Men were taught to treat women as their most prized "possession" and to cherish that possession and ease every discomfort. Heck, women were even the direct socializing agents. So, women socialized women to be "inferior" and men to be "superior"? Well, actually that's just lazy thinking. Inferior/ superior positions grew as definitions superimposed over the social strata at a point later in time. The world certainly wasn't cast that way. The world was cast into ROLES by men and by women, and like many things good intentions led to a bad result--OR, simply outlived their usefulness.

I love that society (to forget many men aided in the fight for women's rights is just another example of sexism) made a social change in response to changing conditions. I personally love modern women who are in some ways liberated and am frustrated with some of the areas where they still need to break free. The movement has also liberated men of some negatives, though men still fight sexism every day and it goes unrecognized by choice (therein lies the sexism, eh?). But, we're all changing, and that's ok.

Unfortunately, political correctness has become so burdensome to real social change. It's disingenuous and it's dismissive. How does that lead to positive social change? Change is actually obstructed when people won't let go of the power of the psychological manipulation inherent in political correctness. Change becomes a battle where I must win my equality from you, implying that you're withholding equality from me when you're actually not. It's an unfortunate mindset to social "evolution" or "progress"--especially when the biggest fight for change is within ourselves. MLK sought cooperation, and I believe in doing so, he provided the example for harmonious social change without traumatic conflict. Weird. It's almost un-human-like. Simply understand--hmmmm...

Side: Hell yeah!!!
J-Roc77(70) Disputed
1 point

We agree feminism is still needed. I am disputing other areas of your stance.

The flaw began in the very beginning of the movement where blame was assigned to men for the social condition of the time.... Women were shut out of the workplace? Modern spin. Women were privileged. Affluence was defined by pampering women. Men were taught to treat women as their most prized "possession" and to cherish that possession and ease every discomfort.

Your last sentence above is an interesting take, women as a "possession" when referring to the relationship of a woman to a man is not supporting the claim of being in a privileged position. All those men you are saying fighting for feminism should get right on that for you:P

If you had some textual evidence to back this up the claim of women's position being of privilege when it would help because your statement seems to lack a foundation. Western thinking has been dismissive of womens' roles as full citizens throughout much of history. In fact women have been subjugated in many wester cultures by men in power.

For the foundation of western theology and attitudes toward women look no further than Augustine.

Confessions

...and man, created after Thy image (that is, the power if reason and understanding) on account of which he has set over all irrational creatures. And as in his soul there is one power that rules by directing, another made subject that it might obey, so also for the man was corporeally made a woman, who, in thew mind of her rational understanding should also have a like nature, int he sex, however, of her body should be in like manner subject to the sex of her husband, as the appetite for action is reason of the mind, to conceive the skill of acting rightly.

Aquinas?

Summa Theologica

3rd Article

It was right for woman to be made from the rib of man. First it was to signify the social union of man and woman, for the woman should never use authority over man, and so she was not made from his head; nor was it his right for her to be subject to man's contempt as his slave...

While ending with woman not to be mans slave may seem to be a tick in favor of your stance however in context it doesn't support very well at all. If you are not a slave but should never use authority over man you certainly are not in a privileged position.

Even enlightenment thinkers overlooked many minority groups in their writings on liberty. Seldom are minority groups called out though in a manner that women are.

Rousseau

Emile

...They should [women] learn many things, but only such things that are suitable....By teaching them in guise of pleasure and fun what qualities are esteemed by men and what is the true glory and happiness of a good woman.

If boys are incapable of forming any true ideas if religion, much more is beyond the grasp of girls...

Emile is chock full of misogyny but like any thinker some of his other writings are better. I won't waste time quoting the whole thing but basically he thinks women are not as smart as men or as able. You said that women have equal social responsibility as men do/did (you were talking socialized as in the past) but this flies in the face of the fact that women had limited power to self govern until recent times. Women in western societies have not historically been part of the sovereign with their own wills but rather the subjects of others, they could not vote and were thought to be mans lesser in many aspects and to yield to his knowledge of what is better for women overall. If the equal burden of this role making were true why would there have been a struggle at all?

To see a society that holds women in a position of privilege I suggest looking at the Haudenosaunee. There is a matrilineal society that had/have women in seats of government.

Side: Good idea turned bad.

Well, now.... what you say is very interesting.

Apparently at least one black person was quoted as saying that it is impossible for black people to be racist because there are 2 components to racism. The first one being hating or feeling superior to a specific race. The second one being to have the power to do something about it. So, for example, white people can be racist if they hate or feel superior to blacks because they are also in a position of power and can use that power to subjugate blacks. On the other hand, black people can NOT be racist because they are not in a position to subjugate white people. Black people can only hate white people and that alone does NOT make them racist.

Now, I do agree with you that most women are not in a privileged position since so few of them are in a position of authority over men but I do question the rationality (or lack thereof) of most women ;)

Side: Good idea turned bad.
1 point

Sure. If feminism never kicked off I wouldn't be able to go to school, vote or own property.

Side: Hell yeah!!!