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Yes. These people have emigrated to a different country, for reasons such as war, poverty, disease, even abuse. All they want is a new home, and to call these poor people Aliens, is offensive.
Legal and illegal are simply terms used to describe individuals who entered "legally" or "illegally". You know, 4 or 5 decades ago, the mentally handicap were publicly called retards, without any negative connotations. What do you propose the description for people that are here illegally be called then? Non-legitimate? Go-rounders? Statute by-passers? See, illegal doesn't sound so bad after all.
What the hell, man? Didn't I ask you what we should call them if not illegal immigrants? How is my view so different than his? You constructed this whole straw man, with me being some anti-immigration, racist American pig, but I've been stating and restating almost the exact same argument as the one you supported here over and over and over.
Calm down Stewie Griffin, they shouldn't have a name. Perhaps, tourist maybe? Someone who goes on holiday/business for an extended amount of time. Makes no difference! Just people, as i have said. The man who i responded to, presented his views clearly, thus i gave him a sensible response. You are now over excited. I am a person whom you shall never meet, and who you will have had forgotten about in a month or less. So what does it matter what i say! Just a debate. One which you have clearly not represented clearly enough in your argument! By the way, i never called you an American pig, and actually, never called you racist. I said that i don't know if you're racist. And lets face it, based on what you have said, you're not exactly pro-immigration. Stop acting like some wingy child, and grow up. I am not sure why you are fabricating all those supposed allegations i made towards you, but your approach of omnipotence is failing. Now, man, you can either reply in some clever way, telling me ( i will listen ) how i am completely wrong, with evidence and proof, thus i will apologize, or you can reply in some angry manor, and loose the whole thing completely. Sound ok, man?
I am calm. I'm still half asleep, actually. Don't let my use of bad language confuse you on that; I swear like a sailor in real life, something I clean up in part here because I know Andy doesn't like gratuitous swearing.
Perhaps, tourist maybe? Someone who goes on holiday/business for an extended amount of time. Makes no difference!
If it makes no difference why do you have a problem with them being called a more accurate term than "tourist" or "someone who does on holiday/business for an extended amount of time?"
You are now over excited.
What gave you that impression?
The man who i responded to, presented his views clearly, thus i gave him a sensible response.
What do you need me to clear up to get a sensible response out of you? I've been trying to drive home the same few points several times, now, I thought I had made them all pretty clear.
So what does it matter what i say! Just a debate.
So... you want me to stop taking you seriously? Stop formulating thoughtful responses? Why dont we just mash the keyboard at eachother, if everything we say here is really so meaningless sadmfjf,j.adsfkmf adnmn m mdasmnklafkndsn fnh dsknfad.
By the way, i never called you an American pig
Never said that you did.
never called you racist.
Again, never said that you did, I said that you took my origional post, which was compating the use of the word "citizen" to that of "illegal immigrant" in terms of legality (and that was all I was saying) and constructed this whole post on what kind of person I am (a pathetic ignoramus with racist behavior) quite erroneously. Look at this: "But i do know many people with the same mind set as you who are racists."
That "mind set" you're taking about is one you constructed for me, one where I'm worried for the safety of my job, where I feel superior, where I display racist tenancies, and you continued to paint this very fanciful fabrication in your next post, implicating my selfishness, assuming my religious beliefs, and accusing me of having a closed mind. My actual mind set is this, and if you look at my premier dispute I think you will see the truth of this: if the most accurate term to describe someone who is a resident of a country legally is "citizen," and that is unoffensive, why should the most accurate term (or at very least a valid synonym) to describe someone who resides in a country illegally, "illegal immigrant," be offensive? That was literally the entirety of my post, and from it you built up a straw man stereotype of Americans and began to attack it.
And lets face it, based on what you have said, you're not exactly pro-immigration.
No! And this is the problem! You aren't basing that assumption off of anything I've said (I challenge you to find a quote that says I'm against immigration), but rather off of words you have tried to put in my mouth. Your straw man is defiantly a racist against immigration, but I'm not.
I am not sure why you are fabricating all those supposed allegations i made towards you, but your approach of omnipotence is failing.
Omnipotence? Lol. Far, far from it. You are the one fabricating things here; you haven't been able to find evidence in my posts the supports the picture you've painted of me. I can back up (or destroy, as the case may be) any of the "supposed allegations" with quotes from you. Which one(s) would you like me to show you? Before you ask anything, though, make sure you are differentiating between implications and actual allegations (i.e. you implied my racism, never called me a racist). You haven't been doing a good job with that, as demonstrated by: "i never called you an American pig."
Now, man, you can either reply in some clever way, telling me ( i will listen ) how i am completely wrong, with evidence and proof, thus i will apologize
Please do draw my attention to any area that I have failed to prove you wrong, but in any case I doubt an apology will be forthcoming.
or you can reply in some angry manor, and loose the whole thing completely. Sound ok, man?
The use of swear words in my debates and, indeed, in my life in general doesn't amount to shit when determining how angry I am (though you and Srom seem to disagree with me about that), and it shouldn't mean a damn thing as to whether or not I loose a debate. See? Two swear words in the same paragraph and my pulse is dead even.
If I've come across as angry or as a "wingy child," as you've put it, it's simply because I don't like being misrepresented, and I loathe being lumped together with the American stereotype. One because I was raised by some folks straight out of Europe, and two because it doesn't apply to me. I'm the first to agree that stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason, but you demonstrated the epitome of prejudiced by looking at my nationality and lumping me in with a stereotype before you actually got to know my views on the matter.
No, you absolute, Ignoramus. I am hardly saying that calling people citizens is offensive. You saying "they shouldn't immigrate illegally", is. Very. Either you can stay in your country and probably die in the next few weeks, whilst watching the people you love die around you, or you can all move in to a different country. What is the big fuss. "Oh, they take out jobs." You're pathetic. What gives you the right over them. What makes you superior as a human being? Nothing. Sure, you might have more qualifications. Then by all means, you have more right. But for gods sake, if some Iranian guy has a job as a dustbin man, whats there to complain about? It's one thing, and one thing only. Pure, racism. If they have a different skin color, or speak in a different language, "Oh look at 'em. Takin' out jobs 'n all." It is Pathetic. Would you refuse a little ten year old girl in to your country because she doesn't have a passport? Look in to her eyes, and tell her that. Other country's like France or Germany, you don't need a visa. I could just cycle from one country in to the other, no problemo. But no, even if they're fleeing from a war torn country, even if they're dying of starvation, as long as it means you have to look at some Afghan person, you don't want them here. Now, maybe you're not racist, i don't know you. But i do know many people with the same mind set as you who are racists. And let me tell you something. I, along with the vast majority of the country, do not like racists!
I am hardly saying that calling people citizens is offensive. You saying "they shouldn't immigrate illegally", is. Very.
First of all, If you could direct me to where I said "they shouldn't immigrate illegally?" I seem to be suffering some kind of short term memory loss.
Immigration is fine, and if you immigrate legally to a country you will probably be a citizen of that country. Calling a legal immigrant a citizen isn't offensive because it's an accurate term. Calling an illegal immigrant an illegal immigrant isn't (or shouldn't be) offensive because that's what they are. I could call them "border hoppers," if you prefer, but really what else should we call someone who immigrated illegally other than an illegal immigrant?
Now, maybe you're not racist, i don't know you.
Yeah... you kind of constructed this entire argument based on false assumptions you made from your misrepresentation of my original post, and I don't feel the need to refute most of it because it doesn't apply to me: I am not a racist. I live in the US. We have one of the most diverse populations on the planet. That wouldn't have been possible if the government didn't allow in slews of different people, but as lenient as our government is (at least we don't require a PhD to gain admittance, as some European countries pushed), we still have laws restricting who can live here and who can't, and if you circumvent the law and the system so you can move here, you immigrated illegally, and that makes you an illegal immigrant. Your emotional argument ("look into her eyes... etc.) falls on deft ears for two reasons. 1. My country has problems so far up it's own ass, debt, unemployment, and yes, starvation, that you're not going to convince me we're in a position to be trying to help even more people. 2. This is a simple matter of law, not emotion, and your argument is the same as anti-choice advocates showing pictures of little (aborted) fetuses to show how cute they are and why you shouldn't abort them. In that case, as with this one, I pass over the emotional bullshit and get right down to the facts of the matter.
What gives me right to live in this country, a right that others haven't earned or inherited, is that my parents came here, became citizens, and then had me, so I was born here a citizen. Other people were not born here, never became or tried to become citizens, so they obviously don't enjoy the rights and privileges of citizens in this country. I don't think this makes me "superior" to them, as you put it, but I does mean that I am a legal citizen, and do enjoy the rights of this country. If you want to enjoy this country as a legal citizen, become one, and if you choose to break the law and more here illegally instead I don't generally have a problem with that, but know that you will be subject to the term "illegal immigrant" because you immigrated illegally, and I don't know how to state that any more evidently than I already have, you "pathetic" "ignoramus."
I think they are accurate terms, particularly the second one. If you are offended by being called an "illegal immigrant," don't immigrate illegally.
4hrs 33mins ago | Side: no
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Well, if that doesn't cure your Alzheimer, then nothing will. You fucking yanks only think of yourselves "gaud bless America!" And all the bollocks. Now sir, i do not normally swear in my arguments, but you have just gone too far. You think you are right, which is ok. Everyone is allowed their own opinion, but the thing that is unacceptable, is that you simply won't listen. I have considered your view, have thought about the cons of my view, but you. I, have not emigrated from anywhere. And who gives a flying fuck if your family lived there first? "Land of the free." Wow, you guys need to think up a new slogan. Please, just think about what you're saying. If Russia launched out the 'hot' war, and America was under attack, and you had to leave. Would you still think "oh no i can't go there, because then i'd be an illegal; immigrant." No, you wouldn't. you'd pack up and leave as soon as you can. That is exactly what these people are doing. As a fellow human being, i would have thought that you would show just a little compassion to these people. They only ask for refuge, and you try to turn them away. By the way, when i called you Pathetic, i meant it in the literal terms. When you use it, really i am not pathetic, you are simply using it to try and insult me. Which 1. I was not trying to do to you. 2. Is as low as you could possibly get. Now, i will say one last time, because this is getting ridiculous, whether it is your country or not, you have to accept that people are going to come and go. A hundred years ago, you didn't need a passport or visa to go in to a different country. You would not get deported if you went there without credentials, as you didn't need them> What makes now so different. Afraid of some suicide bomber. No. These people are family's, just like i am supposing you have, and they only want the same things as you. To live. Thank you for listening, i know it has been very hard for you. And when (as i am sure you will want to) you reply to this, please don't star quoting me, because then i just think "Oh here we go again, he's just like everyone else, can't think of something meaningful to say."
Well, if that doesn't cure your Alzheimer, then nothing will.
No, nevermind, I didn't forget anything. You just misquoted me.
You fucking yanks only think of yourselves "gaud bless America!"
I think it's funny you would call me a fucking yank in a debate where you're trying to assert how offensive the term "illegal immigrant" is.
but the thing that is unacceptable, is that you simply won't listen.
I'm all ears. Or eyes, as the case may be.
And who gives a flying fuck if your family lived there first?
The government. The ones who decide citizenship. And it's not just our government, either: America is hardly the most difficult country to get into.
Would you still think "oh no i can't go there, because then I'd be an illegal; immigrant." No, you wouldn't. you'd pack up and leave as soon as you can.
I told you before I dont have a problem with immigration; I don't even feel we should be doing more to prevent illegal immigration. What I am saying and have said since the beginning is that if you immigrate illegally don't get all butthurt when someone refers to you as an illegal immigrant, because that's what you are.
They only ask for refuge, and you try to turn them away
Sorry, my short term memory loss is back; point me to where I said the US should turn away all immigrants. Actually I'll save you the trouble: I didn't.
For attacking my previous argument as racist you're coming across quite racist yourself, what with all the slurs and sweeping generalizations (unsupported) about me as an American and about the American populace.
when i called you Pathetic, i meant it in the literal terms. When you use it, really i am not pathetic, you are simply using it to try and insult me. Which 1. I was not trying to do to you. 2. Is as low as you could possibly get.
1. But you did.
2. At least I didn't take the low blow, first; I followed your lead and responded in kind.
Also you calling me pathetic was based on your misrepresentation of my argument, so really, I am not pathetic. =D
Now, i will say one last time, because this is getting ridiculous, whether it is your country or not, you have to accept that people are going to come and go.
Accepted. Nothing you have said has done anything to change my preexisting opinion on that front. You, though, seem to have a problem accepting that someone who immigrates illegally might be called an illegal immigrant.
A hundred years ago, you didn't need a passport or visa to go in to a different country.
I thought we were talking about immigration, not visiting. And laws restricting immigration have existed for wayyy more than 100 years. But, even if they hadn't, a lot has changed in the last 100 years.
Thank you for listening, i know it has been very hard for you.
A little hard to follow, but no problem other than that.
And when (as i am sure you will want to) you reply to this, please don't star quoting me, because then i just think "Oh here we go again, he's just like everyone else, can't think of something meaningful to say."
Debates are sustained by responses, so yes, I want to respond. I assume you are taking about the quotes in bold. We quote things to make the argument easier to follow, and to show what specific part of the argument we are responding to. It's the same amount of content that an argument without quotes would have, but it helps break up the argument being made, so it isn't a long, difficult to follow run-on like yours.
Well, sir, i am glad you took all this in good faith, if a little,(repetition) mis-understood. When i say top quoting, it is because i am the person who wrote those quotes, and am fully aware of what they mean! What i could say, which would resolve all this, if countries simply didn't exist. If there were no borders, life would be so much simpler. You would not need so many political party's, there would not be international or civil wars (or at least not as many as there are now) and travel would be so much easier! The only down side, is getting to that stage. The after would be fine, but the stage of getting rid of borders, there would be mass riots and such like. By the way, I don't see the Americans as a race! More, a people. Racist is the verbal or physical abuse towards someone because of their ethnicity, and also religion. Me being what i am supposing you think, anti-American, would be classed as being nationalist. Trust me, i am not a racist! Anyway, i have had fun here, for i never knew there were people in the world like you- you learn something new everyday!
What i could say, which would resolve all this, if countries simply didn't exist. If there were no borders, life would be so much simpler. You would not need so many political party's, there would not be international or civil wars (or at least not as many as there are now) and travel would be so much easier!
This is very idealistic. Not a bad idea, but not one I see coming to fruition any time soon, and so long as we are still an individual country of law we will still apply the term "illegal" to people who do illegal things.
By the way, I don't see the Americans as a race! More, a people. Racist is the verbal or physical abuse towards someone because of their ethnicity, and also religion
Various nationalities and religions are allowed to pull the race card when they are attacked; I was just doing the same. Jews, for example, get to pull the race, religion, and nationality card all in one, but if I was Christian and married a Christian and had Christian babies, they wouldn't be Christian by race. Similarly if I had a problem with different nationalities moving here I would see that as being more nationalist than racist, yet you implied the latter.
See, the thing is, we all live on planet Earth and we are all humans. This is our home. Having these "countries" is stupid. We either work together (for our long-term survival) or there's no point for any of it.
Really? Hey, would you mind paying the taxes for my county and city then, seeing how we are all one and stuff?
Paying taxes? For your county and city? Irrelevant. Think big, like the whole planet, as I do.
We aren't one and stuff. But we should be.
You're missing the point. Having "countries" with different "laws" is detrimental to humanity.
Money? Money is used as a motivator for people to do anything, but in reality it is also detrimental to humanity.
In case of an extinctive event, would you rather wait for the money to arrive so that there would be a motivation for survival, so that people would start working toward survival, and while you are waiting for the money everyone dies? (the money might not arrive even if you had the time) Or would you just do what is necessary, without money keeping you back, and ensure survival?
You think being unified is not good? Explain, how exactly? The way I see it it would solve almost every problem we have. No wars, ever again, for one. Also, no more "illegal immigrants" ever again.
I wish I could still be this idealistic. But the more I saw of the world the more I realized universal utopia is wishful thinking.
Still, you seem to have a pretty good plan laid out, abolishing countries and laws and money and only instating things that are good for humanity. You have my vote if you ever run for supreme ruler of earth.
I wish I could still be this idealistic. But the more I saw of the world the more I realized universal utopia is wishful thinking.
Utopia is subjective since people have their own versions of great. But still very much achievable, the only issue is what has to be done to achieve it. The process is not flowery.
I am afraid, sir, that even though what you say is the utter truth, there are far too many little Eurocrats and democrats in this world who have the have things their way. T9o many people have too much to loose. Good thinking though.
Everyone may choose their own "point of life", but if it does not contribute to the rest, toward the future in some manner, it is pointless.
When it all comes down to it then, from human perspective, there is nothing more important then the survival of humanity.
If we don't work toward that then our existence is pointless, then we might as well kill ourselves right now and be done with it.
I am very certain that humanity dies one day, but not trying to make us last as long as possible is very stupid. Since we exist why not go on as long as we can?
I don't see how any of this could be proved objectively. It seems like this is just your personal point of life, and I think it's a little harsh to say that anyone who isn't working towards your goals might as well kill themselves. I certainly don't hold the opinion that people who don't subscribe to my personal philosophies ought to end their pointless lives, why do you? Or "might as well," if you prefer.
Personally, I find humanity to be quite stupid. I think working to continue our existence is equally stupid.
If you have nothing smart to say, say nothing at all. You show yourself as dumb if you do.
I know exactly what the real world is like. The coal is not to accept current inferior and downright idiotic ways but to strive toward better ones. You clearly cannot comprehend a truth as simple as that, just as very many others can't.
They're the same race, so calling them an 'alien' is dehumanising and extremely offensive. They have been under a great deal of pressure, and many haven't seen their families for years. An alliance between the US and Mexico would be a good idea, so people can cross the border freely. If the US is so powerful, how can it not help it's neighbour?
"Illegal immigrant" is an accurate title that sums up someone who comes from another country and proceeds to relocate to another country without taking the proper measures.
It's cheating, on a much bigger scale.
So no, it shouldn't be an offensive term.
And to respond a little to other claims:
We have a diverse population, and an even more diverse way of thinking. Countries, states, territories, cities, counties (etc) help people group in a like minded environment; at least enough to be a law-abiding citizen.
Think of it as agreeing to the "Terms Of Service" for any software, electronics or internet community. Illegal immigration bypasses the legal documentation that allows the government to know you will abide by our laws and tolerate our culture.
Think of it as agreeing to the "Terms Of Service" for any software, electronics or internet community. Illegal immigration bypasses the legal documentation that allows the government to know you will abide by our laws and tolerate our culture.
Good example. I haven't even really had the chance to debate with anyone about why immigration laws are necessary; the opposition on this argument seems to be pushing for the kind of fanciful utopia where we don't have need of laws or countries at all.
What should we call it then? "You are not allowed in this country" alien or immigrent. Maybe we should give them money, food, and a home to stay in while they take the money of the legal, tax paying, law obieding citizen...