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I'm going to give this a try. This will be a new position for me.
Yes, God exists. There had to be something that started everything else. Nothing can move on it's own unless it is willed to do so. Before life started this principle was already in effect. A deity of some sort must have initiated the chain of events.
That is beyond the scope of our knowledge. Logical God would have to always exist. He is the unmoved mover of the universe. Everything else only moves because he put it in place. Otherwise nothing in the universe would move. Something would have to set these movements in order to allow our existence. That something would have to be the initial cause. Since he is beyond time he would mostly likely just always have existed.
God is a baseless theory masquerading as a solution because we have yet to develop a substantiated knowledge of the origins of the universe. However, this lack of actual knowledge regarding the origins of the universe does not mean that God is the correct or only potential solution; it just means we do not have the answers yet.
I'm sure there are plenty of logical routes to qualifying God as existing.
Good for you. I am not sure, as I have never heard a single one.
My unmoved mover argument seemed fine.
Except that it is not, per the reasoning I already gave which you have not actually refuted.
1. Everything in the universe moves because something acted upon it or it willed to do so.
You assume, with no basis but our lack of actual knowledge.
2. Before humans existed things without will were moving.
Arguing that God caused them to move is a presumption, again with no basis other than our lack of actual knowledge.
3. In order for somethimg to move something would have to act upon it.
To believe this is God one must presume that something must have consciousness and a will, again with no basis other than our lack of actual knowledge.
Arguing that God is that something is a presumption, again with no basis other than our lack of actual knowledge.
4. There must be something that starts the movements and that something itself is the unmoved mover. The initial starter.
Again, you presume this to be true on the sole basis of our lack of actual knowledge.
I would see this as logical.
If unfounded assumptions made in the absence of knowledge to cover the gaps in our actual understanding seems logical to you, then I think you are seriously misunderstanding the meaning of logic.
Also, if your argument is true then it's still possible that God may exist. It's possible that any God could exist.
I never said it was impossible (though I do consider it improbable). My argument was that God is a baseless theory.
You assume, with no basis but our lack of actual knowledge.
Do you even observe your universe? That's how I have acquired my knowledge. Rocks won't move unless acted on by an outside force. You can't move unless acted on by an outside force or you will to do so. That means that their isn't a lack of knowledge. I don't think you are understanding the argument.
This part of my argument is already proven to be correct by Newton's Law of Motion, which states:
"An object at rest will remain at rest unless acted on by an unbalanced force. An object in motion continues in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force."
Arguing that God caused them to move is a presumption, again with no basis other than our lack of actual knowledge.
You didn't even allow for me to finish each point.
To believe this is God one must presume that something must have consciousness and a will, again with no basis other than our lack of actual knowledge.
Then give me an explanation on how the universe began to move.
If unfounded assumptions made in the absence of knowledge to cover the gaps in our actual understanding seems logical to you, then I think you are seriously misunderstanding the meaning of logic.
The argument is logically sound. It relies on the laws of motion. There is no absence of logic. There is no absence of knowledge. You just dismiss it and claim that I'm making assumptions about the universe around me. These things are observable.
I never said it was impossible (though I do consider it improbable). My argument was that God is a baseless theory.
If it's not impossible then it's possible. It can be as improbable as Earth was for being perfect for life before it was actually created. However, God still is not baseless since there is philosophical backing.
I have never seen a philosophical basis which withstood the interrogation of logic and reason. If you have then, please, do present it. Otherwise, that is an empty assertion.
Do you even observe your universe? [...] This part of my argument is already proven to be correct by Newton's Law of Motion, which states: "An object at rest will remain at rest unless acted on by an unbalanced force. An object in motion continues in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force."
I do, and am I am quite familiar with Newton's Law of Motion. It is one thing to limit this observation to the actually observable, and another entirely to extrapolate it without basis to the origins of the universe which may or may not be held to the same natural laws as is the present.
You didn't even allow for me to finish each point.
I am sorry you did not express your full point from the offset?
Then give me an explanation on how the universe began to move.
I do not have one, nor do I need one to point out that your explanation utterly lacks evidence.
The argument is logically sound. It relies on the laws of motion. There is no absence of logic. There is no absence of knowledge. You just dismiss it and claim that I'm making assumptions about the universe around me. These things are observable.
These things are not observable. You cannot observe the origins of the universe. You cannot know that it was bound to the laws proceeding from it. More importantly, you cannot know or logically conclude that if were that God would have been the force at work. This remains unfounded presumption, a conclusion preceding the evidence.
If it's not impossible then it's possible. It can be as improbable as Earth was for being perfect for life before it was actually created. However, God still is not baseless since there is philosophical backing.
Possible does not mean substantiated, and you have not proven within strong probability any likely philosophical backing. Not only do you persist in presuming that you can extrapolate from the present the laws controlling the origins of the universe, you further presume that should those laws have held constant at the origin then the only path to their fulfillment is God. A fallacy upon a fallacy, nothing more.
so no argument at all? you just stated thaT "He was there"... wow :D :D ...and I assume that is because bible says so, right? :D ...you know that is also evidence for Spiderman ... because the comic book says so...
No, if anything is outside of the realm of the universe it exists. It doesn't exist in the universe unless the universe is it or it's essence is in the universe. If God is outside of time then there is no beginning or end. There is no later or yesterday.
Universe by definition is a bunch of all things that exists and logically if you are not in the universe... nobody knows how it happen and definitely not people with skill set of stone age goat farmers...
I don't know, nobody does. Big Bang is a real thing, there is no doubt about it... if there was something before, hard to say, whole universe could be an infinite loop... so then there would be no beginning... but no one knows.
Only cowards cannot admit that they do not know and hide behind stories about talking animals, wizards, magic and stupidity...
My point is a universe is a cycle then it has no begining. To make it simple consider this scenario:
I am a mad scientist and I create a strange device. I turn it on and it creates a black hole that eats whole universe then became unstable and explodes into a big bang where planets and creatures evolves and then me building the device.... over and over again, does not matter far back or forward you will look. You will be always inside the system ... so no begging at all...
How do you know talking animals actually existed? What if a deity just created a universe and didn't care what happened?
My point is a universe is a cycle then it has no begining. To make it simple consider this scenario:I am a mad scientist and I create a strange device. I turn it on and it creates a black hole that eats whole universe then became unstable and explodes into a big bang where planets and creatures evolves and then me building the device.... over and over again, does not matter far back or forward you will look. You will be always inside the system ... so no begging at all...
Then you are committing the infinite regress fallacy. So no I don't agree with this. Last time I checked the universe was losing energy right? If it was a loop then energy must remain constant. Other wise the universe had a starting peak of energy meaning it had an initial start. Even then you need something to start the loop.
If it was a loop then energy must remain constant. Universe is not loosing any energy, so it can be loop .
I don't think you understand your own brain.
Deep in human brain there is a primitive simple part as a residuum from our lizard predecessors...it is a small part, very small part, incapable of thinking nor talking. It is like a wash machine, it just follows steps.
You can train monkey to use language, monkey Moya knew more words than you do yet it never asked a single question, because even so advanced animals like monkeys with their big brains do not have "Theory of though" which means the monkey does not realise that You could know something that the monkey does not know...
Monkey brain is several hundred times larger than lizards' brain... so No, lizards cannot speak, never could, never will.
Universe is not loosing any energy, so it can be loop .
So what started the loop?
Deep in human brain there is a primitive simple part as a residuum from our lizard predecessors...it is a small part, very small part, incapable of thinking nor talking. It is like a wash machine, it just follows steps.
The reptilian brain is what we call it. It still has major uses today.
Also I'm glad you know so much abou language aquisition, but how does this affect your point?
I'm going to give this a try. This will be a new position for me.
Yes, God exists. There had to be something that started everything else. Nothing can move on it's own unless it is willed to do so. Before life started this principle was already in effect. A deity of some sort must have initiated the chain of events.
If we were created by wizard, gods, or by batman ... that would imply that he creator needs creator to... and his creator etc...
You cannot create what always existed in a timeless zone. Creation requires time. Only beings that teanscend time can creation in a timeless zone. Also wizards suck. Wizards have to learn their magic.
This is where we do a process of elimination. We know something created the universe. This something would have to be great in power. This thing would have to have capabilities of creation. This something must be uncreated and always there. Either a super strong particle or something being.
Yes, we can. We know the universe had a start since it's not a constant thing. It changes. It cannot change by itself. Something must act upon it. ...something must act upon it???? Why? Please try to differentiate your personal wishes and real world....
Never said it had to be. So if your gods are just dumb force like gravity, why should we even care...?
There had to be something that started everything else that is illogical because with that logic you must have something that started that thing and then the next one and then the next one ....
Incorrect. Again, something that exists without time cannot be created since creation requires time. Only beings that can create time (or in other words transend time) can create something in a place where time doesn't exist.
without time, events cannot happen, nor thinking. It is like staring on paused movie... there is no space for wizard or wizards. Those would be too complex, they would require time.
Time is only constraining in our universe. Outside of the universe is unfathomable. There are no constraints. Time is only relative to movement. You only understand time when you understand movement. Outside of the universe exists what we may never know. There may be nothing. There may be another universe that functions differently. Who knows?
Now saying without time events cannot happen is logical when being applied inside the universe. However what events made the universe? If there is no time outside the universe then time isn't required for events to occur.
Time is only constraining in our universe. Outside of the universe is unfathomable....*
There is no outside the universe... by universe we mean a set of things that exists, therefore things outside the universe from definition cannot exist.
If there is no time outside the universe then time isn't required for events to occur. If there is no time then nothing is happening. Imagine that I shut you in room without oxygen, would that mean for you that you do not need oxygen to live any more?... I don't think so.
There is no outside the universe... by universe we mean a set of things that exists, therefore things outside the universe from definition cannot exist.
How do you know? What if there is? There must be if the universe is not an infinitely large place.
If something is outside the universe it cannot exist? How? If it's there it exist. I bet something exists out there. Either a parent universe or a strong particle or something.
If there is no time then nothing is happening. Imagine that I shut you in room without oxygen, would that mean for you that you do not need oxygen to live any more?... I don't think so.
Then by that fitting of time the universe could have never came into existence since time didn't exist before it. Again, please use your brain and think more critically.
Also I don't see what correlation that oxygen example had in our debate here.
yes i guess god exists. wt else shud i write.. i need 2 cover up 50 characters.. wt can i do .. i jst wanted to say that yes god exists..?? too difficult
Typically, one actually explains their reasoning when asserting a position. This helps them out with credibility, and gives whoever is disputing the position something to call to question.
If you omit your reasoning, then it's perfectly acceptable for someone to dispute you just saying "I don't believe God exists." Back your claims, and those who dispute you will be expected to back their own.
yes i guess god exists. wt else shud i write.. i need 2 cover up 50 characters.. wt can i do .. i jst wanted to say that yes god exists..?? too difficult
Without any evidence and only fairly as backing it really must be difficult...
Yes, He has to exist. Look at all the Christians. They always talk about miracles and how things happened that couldn't possibly happen. There has to be SOMEone who does all that. It has to be God. I don't think it's possible that things like this just happen, just like that. Plus, the Bible is a book from God. And there is a lot of history and everything inside it. And it has been proven that the history is true. Therefore, i believe God exists.
GOD EXIST CUZ MANY PEOPLE WONDER HOW WE ARE CREATED OR WHERE DO WE COME FROM? GOD CREATED US IN HIS IMAGE. AND TO THOSE WHO SAID NO TO THIS DEBATE ARE COMPLETE IDIOTIC ILLOGICAL ATHEIST OR SATANIST. AND I SAY THIS TO THOSE WHO SAID NO TO THIS DEBATE, SINCE YOUR ATHEIST OR SATANIST, YOU ARE NO LONGER CONSIDERED HUMAN BEINGS ANYMORE BUT AN ABOMINATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Plus Satanics and Atheist are Humans too. Also how can someone be an Abomination for having free will. Something that God let us have. Your a Dickfaced Asshole.
AND IF YOUR GOING TO REPLY AGAIN TO ME ABOUT GOD DOESNT EXIST THING YOU MOTHER FUCKER YOU BETTER SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU FUCKING ATHEIST YOU ARE NOT HUMAN
But God allowed us to have free will. I'm not Human for having some independence. So you rather be a slave to some Being that don't exist than living your own life.
That's not what I meant He created us in His image just to show the meanings and values of life not the ones u mentioned like cannibalism or other stuff u said u Fucking dick face asshole piece of shit. SINCE YOUR A FUCKING ATHEIST I HOPE GOD SENDS YOU TO HELL YOU FUCK ASS SON OF A BITCH AND ALSO THE ONES YOU MENTIONED ARE NOT God's doing the cannibalism and murder thing is man's mistake and Satanism and Atheism is an abomination to this world cuz u assholes who said no in this debate are bad mouthing GOD so SHUT THE FUCK UP U FUCKING FUCKERS!!!!!!!
YOU BETTER SHUT THE FUCK UP U FUCKING MUSLIM I TRIED TO RESPECT YOUR RELIGION ISLAM BUT YOU JUST GONE TOO FAR YOU JUST BAD MOUTH GOD YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE IM RESPECTING YOUR RELIGION ISLAM AND THIS IS HOW A FUCKING MUSLIM LIKE YOU BAD MOUTHING GOD AND CHRISTIANITY YOU JUST PISSED ME OFF YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stating my support to "No". But I also want to point out that this debate is like a guess and sketch game. You pick what you want based on your own guess because God has no evidence whatsoever.
But, what I see is that since we don't have any evidence for God's existence, the winning position should be "No, but possibly yes".
YOU ARE WRONG, GOD EXIST CUZ HE CREATED US WE DON'T COME FROM APES AND WE ARE NOT CREATED FROM SCIENCE YOU ATHEIST!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU ARE NOT CORRECT!!! YOU ARE WRONG!!!!
READ THIS U FUCKING ATHEIST ASSHOLE IN THIS LINK YOU BETTER READ THIS YOU FUCKING INHUMAN ATHEIST CUZ THIS LINK SHOW REASONS WHY GOD EXISTS YOU ASSHOLE MOTHER FUCKER!!!!!!!!!