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Does Israel Have The Moral Right To Exist?
Remember that the land now owned by Israel was a gift from the British, who acquired it by military conquest. Is it right that a foreign occupying power can give away land which is being used by native occupants of that land?
Almost every nation that exists now was formed through some level of military conquest. I'd say after a nation has sat on a land for 50 years it pretty much officially owns it (until someone takes it from them and achieves the same).
It does now; it has been established for 70 years and people have been born, lived full lives and died as Israeli citizens. This is not to say that it should have been carved out of British Palestine in 1947, because that was a massive blunder which immediately resulted in war. It also doesn't legitimize Israeli territorial expansions.
It does now; it has been established for 70 years and people have been born, lived full lives and died as Israeli citizens. This is not to say that it should have been carved out of British Palestine in 1947, because that was a massive blunder which immediately resulted in war. It also doesn't legitimize Israeli territorial expansions.
Given the choice you would keep North Korea and get rid of Israel. Is this correct?
No, that is not what I meant. What I meant is that, given the choice, I would sooner live in North Korea.
Do not forget that politics is relative to where you are in the world. The North Koreans might not be much use to you, but they are very useful to the Chinese and the Russians.
My view is that the Jews have a historical claim to Jerusalem that goes back before Islam even existed. Many pro Palistine arguments only go as far back as the Crusades for their claim. Or that a mosqe has domintated the skyline longer so there for it is our city. All one has to do is read the Roman historian accounts of the Roman sack of Jerusalem in 70 AD and read that the Romans burned a Jewish holysite not a Islamic one. Islam was not even in existenct at the time. But that is beside the point. Is it moral to say I have a right to exist and you do not? I don't think any nation needs a moral right to exist as morals change based on the situation for some. I don't think Isreal sees thier existence as a moral one rather more historical. I agree that Isreal has a moral right to exist as they are fellow human beings. But they have a stronge historical claim to the area as well.
I think the British have a lot to answer for in Palestine, of which the creation of the Israeli state is only part. However, I think theocratic regimes should be outlawed generally, whether they be Jewish, Muslim or Christian.
"However, I think theocratic regimes should be outlawed generally, especially Jewish ones."
There were no Jewish states when Hitler wrote Mein Kampf, so you are an absolute goddamned liar.
It's a pity, because if your quote were genuine, I would have liked to explore why you are so familiar with Mein Kampf that you can quote relevant parts of it during a discussion.
Frankly, I'm a little confused, here. What gives a country a 'moral' right to exist? Acting with a reasonably accepted morality? If so, then no - but many countries have been astoundingly immoral, including the USA.
If how a country gets established has anything to do with it, I'm not sure what that really means, because most begin with mass murder as a common act - definitely not 'moral'.
Perhaps the real question is “Should Israel become Palestine?”. If it is a matter of Israel remaining or Israel going away, I would have to side with Israel remaining.
It was taken from the genocidal Ottomans. Carving up the borders was always going to be along whatever lines the Brits chose. Israel is no more immoral than any other created country in the region. The fighting started simply out of hatred for Jews in what the Muslims considered Muslim land.
Perhaps the real question is “Should Israel become Palestine?”. If it is a matter of Israel remaining or Israel going away, I would have to side with Israel remaining.
It was taken from the genocidal Ottomans. Carving up the borders was always going to be along whatever lines the Brits chose.
These are fair comments.
The fighting started simply out of hatred for Jews
This line is stupid and obviously false. The fighting started because the Brits gave away land being used by other people. If indeed there was hatred for Jews in this region, as you claim, then the British should have known better than to give the land away to Jews in the first place and risk a war.
Zionists strive to portray Israel as the poor, innocent victim, and they blame all the violence on Arabs and their "hatred for Jews". But the reality of the matter is that the Israelis are the invaders, and I personally am not aware of any other historical circumstances where the invaders are considered to be the victims.
Former head of the PLO Zuheir Mohsen- “The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity.”
And- “the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”
Former head of the PLO Zuheir Mohsen- “The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity.”
Yeah, I can cherry-pick quotes too, Amarel. I can even provide sources.
The Israeli general who compared the Jewish State to Nazi-era Germany
I would think an Israeli General cautioning restraint lest Israel act like Nazis, as he does in your source
So you think lying about what the source says is a rational next move? Really?
JERUSALEM — On the eve of Holocaust Remembrance Day last week, a top Israeli general gave a speech saying he saw “revolting trends” in today’s Israel that he compared to Nazi-era Germany and Europe in the 1930s.
His speech comes amid revelations that an Israeli soldier shot and killed a wounded Palestinian attacker in the head, an act that human rights activists called a street execution
You see, Amarel? This is why debate with you rapidly becomes impossible. You immediately begin lying and distorting the truth when things are not going your way.
The General said “If there is one thing that frightens me about the memory of the Holocaust, it is identifying the revolting trends that occurred in Europe as a whole, and in Germany in particular, some 70, 80 and 90 years ago, and finding evidence of those trends here, among us, in 2016.”
This was following the CHARGES filed against the soldier BY ISRAEL. They charged him and it sparked outrage. In the protest “Some of the crowd shouted, “Death to Arabs!” and harassed journalists.”
I’m not lying, you just failed to read the whole source. The soldier who shot a wounded Palastinian attacker was arrested by Israel which caused protests by Israelis wherein they shouted the kind of thing one might expect from Muslims. This is an alarming trend that reminded an Israeli General of the atmosphere leading up to and surrounding the Holocaust. If anyone was reading this thread, they could read it for themselves. As your source proves my point, however, I know you cannot read it.
Notice that I have now addressed your source twice while you have ignored my quote as cherry picking.
This was following the CHARGES filed against the soldier BY ISRAEL
Oh, they charged that one? That's nice. What about these ones?
"A Palestinian Health Policy Institute survey over two years recorded the deaths of seventy-three babies at 'military checkpoints, barriers and trenches' and found that many women facing difficult deliveries had no choice but to give birth at home with no medical help." (Pilger 2007, p127)
Two-thirds of the 621 children killed at checkpoints, in the street, on their way to school, in their homes, died from small arms fire, directed in over half the cases to the head, neck and chest -- the sniper's wound. Two-thirds of the children were under fifteen. Clearly, soldiers are routinely authorised to shoot to kill the children in situations of minimal or no threat. These statistics attract far less publicity than suicide bombings." (Pilger 2007, p164-165, Quoting 2004 entry in the British Medical Journal).
PILGER, J., 2007. Freedom next time. 2nd ed. Great Britain: Bantam press.
Your guardian source has Human Rights Watch alleging war crimes while Israel denying a crime was committed. HRW called on the UN to investigate, since Israel’s investigation showed no wrong doing. I would think the UN would be more than happy since some of the places that were hit were UN aid camps. But I haven’t found the UN report. Just HRW alleging and Israel denying.
As for your other source within a source that has no link and a rediculously biased author, the small arms sniper kills are telltale of his bullshit.
I am not terribly surprised when I see soldiers behaving badly in war zones. But there is no credible evidence that Israel itself is systematically targeting civilians. Indeed, your own source showed that Israel charged their own (for killing a wounded attacker), and then their General admonished the public who was outraged, calling back to Nazi Germany for good measure.
Ask yourself how long a Jew could survive unprotected in Gaza. Now ask yourself how many Israeli Muslims live in Israel with the equal protection of its government. That’s enough to know who has the moral right to exist.
I googled your Pilger quote to respond to it. You have not responded to the PLO leader admitting that they only created the notion of Palestinians as a tool to root out the Jews from what they consider Arab land. You should google it and respond. He goes on to say that if they were successful, that land would all become Jordan anyway.
See what I did? I read your source and addressed it
Yes, you "addressed it" by lying about what it says.
I am additionally glad you used the phrase "your source", because it illustrates I am the only one of us with the honesty to provide a source in the first place.
Israel has the same right to exist that the USA has - very similar land grab. 😉. It’s survival of the fittest - not fair at all. But what makes it worse is the Palestinians can’t vote. At least in USA most people who inhabit the land can vote and participate in the national affairs. The other thing is the fact that Jews continue to muscle outside the borders they were so graciously granted. But that is all a mute because the Jews control the whole money and banking system of the West! >>Why does no one care??!!<<
Ask yourself this simple question:
Hitler tried to simply “export” the Jews
And... no one wanted them?
So - don’t that make the West semi-responsible for any harm?
Israel does not have a right to exist, there is nothing "moral" about how Israel conducts itself. Israel's land is not anyones land by right, for thousands of years different cultures have been fighting over it, conquering and reconquering it, there is no justification for stealing that land and committing genocide so that wealthy fascist jews can set up their own government and be armed with nukes.
