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Does atheistic morality make any sense?
Please watch the video before you respond to the debate.
Can Atheists provide a coherent foundation and justification for their appeals to morality? What kind of options do Atheists have in terms of justifying their moral claims?
You obviously have never read the bible have you? you couldn't find one example of god ordering or approving of murder .
High estimate of gods killings are around 4:5 million and others estimate a much lower figure of 2.8 million. How many people did Satan kill in the bible? It appears that Satan only killed 10 people: the seven sons and three daughters of Job. And he only does this because god allowed it as part of a bet!. Ouch !
You never answered my question either whys that ?
You do know God ordered Abraham to murder his son as a 'test ' no doubt you would do as asked ?
Ah I see a judgemental Christian ( what a surprise) who believes he has the right to tell women what to do with their bodies , making you a bully and a tyrant .
Incidentally it's Christians who no doubt applauded their god as carried out his ' necessary ' work as in abortions , which makes you a hypocrite also doesn't it ?
Hosea 9:11-16 Hosea prays for God’s intervention. “Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. . .Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.” Clearly Hosea desires that the people of Ephraim can no longer have children. God of course obeys by making all their unborn children miscarry. Is not terminating a pregnancy unnaturally “abortion”?
Murder of who? People sacrificing their children to the devil by cooking them alive? I'm assuming you found the Atheist apologetics sites on Deuteronomy and Leviticus. I know, they never tell you that part or tell you just how bad their quote mining is. The next attack is always "God condones rape". I get a laugh out of that one every time...
"But if the man meets the engaged woman out in the country, and he rapes her, then only the man must die." DEUTERNOMY 22:25
Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death." DEUTERONOMY 22:26
I always laugh when religious people snatch at this argument with gleeful little eyes, grubby little hands and smug little minds. I laugh because religious people are convicted by the utterly stupid notion that their morality is objective. What part of choosing to believe in the myths and stories of shepherds from thousands of years ago, is objective? What part of choosing to believe there's an unprovable, unseeable, unnecessary, all encompassing conscious figure managing the daily affairs of a species of apes on a planet in one solar system in one galaxy of billions, is objective?
Those are all subjective choices. And any morality derived thereof, is just as subjective as the morality of anybody else.
The only major difference between the atheist's morality and the religious' morality, is that the morality of the atheist is open for revision. We draw moral conclusions from evidence, conscience, the needs of humanity, our understanding of psychology, philosophy and science, and of course from our empathy.
And it has in fact turned out rather well by comparison to the societies' adopting a strict religious interpretation of morals. For instance, all democratic countries with atheists as a majority of their populations, have lower violent crime, lower theft, lower homicide, higher standards of living, and higher standards of education, than countries which are made of mostly religious citizens.
Look around the world at the most violent places: Afghanistan, Iraq, India, Pakistan, Central Africa. What do they all have in common Well, they have low incomes, poor educations, high rates of violent crime, barbaric laws, and extremely high percentages of religious citizens. And most if not all of their violence problems, emanate from the religious feuds within those nations and the lack of sensible secular laws and equal rights for minorities and women, that are themselves a product of religious tenets that breed stupid, stupid tribalism and segregation.
Recent studies carried out in universities across the world have likewise shown that atheist children tend to be considerably more compassionate, open-minded, caring, altruistic and empathetic than religious children.
Take a look at societies run by secular governments, and you see standards of rights for every citizen far superior to those countries run by religious governments (in fact, in the US, it is precisely BECAUSE of your secular government that you are afforded the rights you have).
Morality is always subjective, it's just that atheists prefer to work it out using evidence, information and thought regarding a plethora of different aspects of human life, not just one book, written by unknown authors, from word-of-mouth stories from the most violent and barbaric region of the world at the time.
It's a common misconception that Christians believe because of fear of going to hell. That's not the sole reason behind why we believe what we believe.
What else is there that gives any worth to the christian morality, if not the punishment behind it?
If we grant all the premises, and I ask how is your morality any better, what would be in your answer other than any (direct or indirect) references to hell?
Nope. It makes no sense. One Atheist's version of morality is nothing like the next Atheist's version of morality. It's why Liberals rarely make any sense on any single issue. It's strange that Atheist's, in general, are the quickest to condemn behavior that they deem "immoral". Atheists have become the new religious zealots.
The guy thinks he is describing atheists, but he isn't. He is describing every single person in the world. Everybody decides to do what they think is right. Christians do the same thing. The difference with atheists and Christians is that Christians say they believe in a set of rules they don't follow.
Christians prove that an objective morality doesn't exist. People who believe in an objective morality have a subjective morality and people who believe in a subjective morality have a subjective morality. There is no real difference.
There is a difference. We admit we are sinners. You deny that sin even exists, meaning there is no morality. In your model, morality would actually put someone at the bottom of the evolutionary food chain, seeing that morality doesn't help you survive, get more food, kill, or take over an environment. Atheist morality actually suppresses the concept of survival of the fittest, seeing liberal Atheism says we have no enemies, all people are the same and equal, and is "tolerant of all ideas", even dangerous ones.
Someone just labeled 2.6 billion people as being identical.
Are you talking about me? There are way more than 2.6 billion people on the planet, and I wasn't calling them identical. Were you trying to talk about me?
False assertion much?
If I said that every human on Earth was human would you claim that is a false assertion?
I watched the video. The two main arguments he seems to make is: Atheists can not argue that their morality is any more superior to any one else because it has no authority and that atheists derive morality from society. First, how would God's morality be any greater than mine? Why should I value someone else's morality just because they have more power than me? Second, he groups and straw man's atheists by saying they derive morals from society. Name one group of people that doesn't do this. I know this may seem like a confused rant, but we are talking about morality, which can be a confusing subject. Anyway, here is a video I have for you.
As the bearded dude explained it, the answer would seem to be NO. The implication of his arguments is that believers should not destroy an ant hill because God made ants. Moral preference, either personal or Societal, must remain unchanged because God made everything, including morals. Then somehow believers in god, who also held slaves, were moral in the eyes of God. ----- At the time!
Here's the deal. People create morals. People create societies. People create gods. People can change all of these things. Whatever morals are currently believed to be correct, are attributed to the currently revered God. This explains the evolution of both societal morals and gods that support them.
I couldn't watch the full 5 minutes of this bearded goon he started out by spouting nonsense and I doubt it improved .
I'm not surprised.
Morality comes from us and is heavily influenced by our societies and environments
Okay, so slavery was justifiable back then in the Civil War in the United States, and so was when Hitler commanded the Germans to enslave the Jews in training camps?
Good I'm glad someone agrees he was a bearded goon
We justified slavery back then because it was deemed socially and morally acceptable just as it was in the time of Jesus , Hitler branded the Jews an inferior race many Germans agreed with him and felt it was morally correct , just the very same as many Americans thought it morally acceptable to demonise blacks up the 1950s as in widespread discrimination .
I didn't agree with you on him being a bearded goon. I said I'm not surprised you didn't watch the whole video.
In the time of Jesus, slavery wasn't acceptable. That's why when He came Jesus taught to love our enemies, to love others, and to treat everyone the way they wanted to be treated. Demonising blacks, slavery, and what Hitler did to the Jews isn't loving at all, and it goes against what Jesus simply taught because we all bear the image of our Creator and if people would see it that way there would be no slavery, demonising of black, and many other immoral things happening.
In the time of Jesus slavery was acceptable and Jesus never once spoke out against it ,; also the majority of slave owners were indeed Christian as were the Germans and they were followers of the 'good book '
We justified slavery back then because it was deemed socially and morally acceptable just as it was in the time of Jesus , Hitler branded the Jews an inferior race many Germans agreed with him and felt it was morally correct , just the very same as many Americans thought it morally acceptable to demonise blacks up the 1950s as in widespread discrimination .We? So you are including yourself with people who justified slavery, Hitler and racists? Not smart man. Some Christians back then, sometimes the majority of them, did justify things like those and the crusades back then, just like the crusades. Just because people justified it does not mean God approves. There are good and bad Christians just like their are good and bad´s in other groups and I don´t think that believing in Christ justifies everything you do. I may have misunderstood what you were saying but this is pretty much what I got from it.
Not a smart man ? The majority of people did accept slavery as the norm because of the societies they were brought up in where these things were socially acceptable proving that morality is ever evolving as in its influenced by the society one lives in
When I say we you know exactly what I mean as in society as a whole , so please don't resort to childish remarks .
You say" just because people justified it does not mean god approves " but how do you know what god approves ?
The bible was used as in the word of god to justify slavery and Jesus himself never once spoke out against slavery where it was prevelant in his society ; please point out where Jesus speaks out against slavery in the bible ?
Believing in Christ historically has allowed so called Christians justification for horrific acts while hiding behind the bible
Alright I need to apologize for the ¨Not smart man.¨ comment I made, it was pretty childish/immature and you are right a majority of people did accept slavery as the norm of society. I would argue though that socially acceptable things changing does not mean morality is evolving because social norms and morality are two different things.
I know of what God does and does not approve of by reading the bible, Exodus 20 says And God spoke all these words:
2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”
These are the things he does not approve of, an impossible standard to live up to, but one that is just.
And yes you are right that Jesus never once spoke out directly against slavery, but his goal on earth was not to talk about every issue, As said in the ten commandments ¨though shall not steal¨; and what is slavery but thievery of a mans freedom? So no he does not speak out against it directly.
One more thing you are right about Believing in Christ historically has allowed so called Christians justification for horrific acts while hiding behind the bible The bible is clearly used throughout history as justification for horrible things. The bible is nothing but ¨the word of god¨ and ¨a sword¨ but anybody can twist around somebody's words, anybody can use a sword. even the devil misused the bible to try and tempt Jesus.
(thanks for your good points I like trying to reason through them, I apologize once again if I insulted you.)
It's all good Bradylee 👌 I have a simple rule on CD I will debate fairly and honestly until someone treats me otherwise and then I pay like with like , so thank you for engaging fairly .
A social norm as in something that the majority accept is I would think accepted by the majority because they do indeed recognise it as beneficial and good for society ; otherwise why would it be accepted unless one lives in a totalitarian state where one gets no say in the matter .
You say you know of what god does and does not approve of ?
Well no you do not , you choose to believe the parts of the bible that are acceptable to you ; I can just as easily demonstrate the god of the bible is evil by using the very same bible and the word of god according to the bible .... so why would I believe the words of the bible ?
Regarding Jesus you're saying he disagreed with the word of God as God and the bible fully approve of slavery ?
Its approved of in the New Testament by Jesus himself who approves of the beating of slaves ( Luke 12:47-48 NLT )
The problem with saying anyone can twist the words of the bible is rather strange as religious people feel totally justified when the bible is used this way , have a look at how the majority of believers on CD demonise and bully others who refuse to accept their religious beliefs .
Regarding the devil do you realise how many people the devil killed according to the bible ?
Satan killed Jobs family 7 sons and three daughters because god asked him to thats Satans total ; God according to the bible kills murders and destroys over two million of his creations ( low estimate ) and he is the good guy ?
No offence but indoctrination is the only way people accept this nonsense .
Thanks Dermot. Your description of social norms sounds pretty on par with what I was thinking, a majority of people doing something that determines what is acceptable in a certain society.
Again I have to apologize, me claiming to know everything God would approve of is a bit much, however I think I do accept all parts of the bible equally. Maybe if you show me parts of the bible where God does evil things I can look at it too.
When you say Its approved of in the New Testament by Jesus himself who approves of the beating of slaves I would argue that Jesus is not approving of it he is merely saying a parable of what does happen, he does not condone it he merely says this is what happens when a servant does not obey his master correct? I found the scripture you are referring to and read the lines before it as well it says 45 But what if the servant thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’ and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk? 46 The master will return unannounced and unexpected, and he will cut the servant in pieces and banish him with the unfaithful.
47 “And a servant who knows what the master wants, but isn’t prepared and doesn’t carry out those instructions, will be severely punished. 48 But someone who does not know, and then does something wrong, will be punished only lightly. When someone has been given much, much will be required in return; and when someone has been entrusted with much, even more will be required.
This is a parable about how when the end time comes the unfaithful, those who have chosen their sin over following their master will be cast into the very thing they have chosen, is this not justice to give somebody what they have done, the thing that they have chosen for themselves?
You are right also about how a lot of people on here are bullying others I looked around the site and saw many examples of this.
As to job yes God allowed for his testing but he did not tell the devil too, the devil chose to because he to is a being with freewill. As to Gods destruction of other people, that is true he did destroy the wicked, those who had turned utterly from him and chosen a life of sin, which has a consequence of death.
I am only 15 and I am not quite sure what indoctrination means so it´s kind of hard to take offense to what you are saying.
Hi Bradylee , you're a good guy and it's great your willing to examine both sides of the argument .
If you accept all parts of the bible equally well then I'm afraid your argument is in trouble as I can demonstrate god is indeed evil going on his word .
First regarding slavery I did say the bible fully supports it and to say the verse in question is a parable even if accepted does not justify the indefensible regarding the many verses that are clearly are not parables ; again look at theses verses ......
Slavery
Except for murder, slavery has got to be one of the most immoral things a person can do. Yet slavery is rampant throughout the Bible in both the Old and New Testaments. The Bible clearly approves of slavery in many passages, and it goes so far as to tell how to obtain slaves, how hard you can beat them, and when you can have sex with the female slaves.
Many Jews and Christians will try to ignore the moral problems of slavery by saying that these slaves were actually servants or indentured servants. Many translations of the Bible use the word “servant”, “bondservant”, or “manservant” instead of “slave” to make the Bible seem less immoral than it really is. While many slaves may have worked as household servants, that doesn’t mean that they were not slaves who were bought, sold, and treated worse than livestock.
The following passage shows that slaves are clearly property to be bought and sold like livestock.
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
The following passage describes how the Hebrew slaves are to be treated.
If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.’ If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
Notice how they can get a male Hebrew slave to become a permanent slave by keeping his wife and children hostage until he says he wants to become a permanent slave. What kind of family values are these?
The following passage describes the sickening practice of sex slavery. How can anyone think it is moral to sell your own daughter as a sex slave?
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
So these are the Bible family values! A man can buy as many sex slaves as he wants as long as he feeds them, clothes them, and has sex with them!
What does the Bible say about beating slaves? It says you can beat both male and female slaves with a rod so hard that as long as they don’t die right away you are cleared of any wrong doing
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show.
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn’t know they were doing anything wrong.
The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. “But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.” (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)
Regarding Job god did indeed ask the devil to cause mayhem to him and his family ,but again if god gives freewill then that means it's conditional on what he wants so why give it ?
So god destroyed his creations which again would include thousands of pregnant women who were carrying 'evil ' children ?
God creates mankind and god is perfect yet he creates imperfect humans why ?
I can demonstrate god commanding and taking part in murder , infanticide and abortion on a massive scale all using the bible ; using the bible and the bible alone I can demonstrate that the god theists worship can equally be demonstrated to be evil as easily as they claim he is good .
Indoctrination is the process the religious go through to convince them there is a god ; indoctrination works by introducing infants to religious belief from the time they are born and keeping the process up till adulthood when most accept the teachings .
If a human was not exposed to religious or a god belief till adulthood and then presented with a bible on reaching the age of 18 and told to examine the contents the majority would dismiss it for the nonsense it is ; the only reason you're a Christian is because you were indoctrinated in your parents religion the same way a Muslim is in there's that's the way it works .
Incidentally I was once a devout Catholic and know the bible in my native tounge , Latin and Greek also 😀
I appreciate the challenge, you have a lot of well thought out points (side note: what was your masters degree in? After high school I hope to major in Physics/Astrophysics at MSU)
You are right slavery is extremely immoral and it is rampant throughout the old and new testaments. But is the bible not a history of a time period in which these things were a part of society? Yes it was extremely wrong but the only place you find any laws whatsoever restricting the abuse of slaves during this time is in the bible.
Also true is your point that they were slaves, and we should not skirt around that fact at all even though some may try to make it seem not as bad as it is.
In response to the passage you found in leviticus I would like to use the words of Paul: 5 The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.
8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully,9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers,10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers,liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted. And also Exodus 21:16 – “Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.” These are the family morals of the bible, the laws are put in place not as a standard but to restrict those who do evil and are treating slaves horribly. I think I already put forth a response to the passage you used from Luke and as to Ephesians 6:5 and 1Timothy 6 1-2, why should a slave not be respectful, is this not among the teachings of Jesus to love one another no matter who they are no matter how they have wronged us?
As to Job I give you Job chapter 1 6-12: ¨6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan[b] also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” 8 And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” 9 Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? 10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” 12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.¨ God allowed Job to be tested because he knew his commitment and his love for God and the devil needed to be defeated in this test.
As to So god destroyed his creations which again would include thousands of pregnant women who were carrying 'evil ' children ?I assume you are referring to the story of Noah to which I give Genesis 6:4-5 ¨4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. 5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.¨ You could say that at this point in time it was too late, God saw where man was headed and how the demons had persay ¨infected¨ them.
God creates an imperfect mankind because it pleased him, I mean think about it, make something that is perfect that will automatically choose you or make something imperfect that might love you? Which is a more perfect kind of love? Which is more rewarding? I just don't see the evil or the maliciousness you are describing.
As to your last point there is no way to back your first idea and I would appreciate it if you don´t assume to know about my parents and how I came to be a Christian especially because you know little to nothing about me sir. You do have a good knowledge of the bible though, and your arguments are very intelligent/thought provoking.
I appreciate the challenge, you have a lot of well thought out points (side note: what was your masters degree in? After high school I hope to major in Physics/Astrophysics at MSU)
You are right slavery is extremely immoral and it is rampant throughout the old and new testaments. But is the bible not a history of a time period in which these things were a part of society? Yes it was extremely wrong but the only place you find any laws whatsoever restricting the abuse of slaves during this time is in the bible.
Also true is your point that they were slaves, and we should not skirt around that fact at all even though some may try to make it seem not as bad as it is.
In response to the passage you found in leviticus I would like to use the words of Paul: 5 The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.
8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully,9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers,10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers,liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted. And also Exodus 21:16 – “Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.” These are the family morals of the bible, the laws are put in place not as a standard but to restrict those who do evil and are treating slaves horribly. I think I already put forth a response to the passage you used from Luke and as to Ephesians 6:5 and 1Timothy 6 1-2, why should a slave not be respectful, is this not among the teachings of Jesus to love one another no matter who they are no matter how they have wronged us?
As to Job I give you Job chapter 1 6-12: ¨6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan[b] also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” 8 And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” 9 Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? 10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” 12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.¨ God allowed Job to be tested because he knew his commitment and his love for God and the devil needed to be defeated in this test.
As to So god destroyed his creations which again would include thousands of pregnant women who were carrying 'evil ' children ?I assume you are referring to the story of Noah to which I give Genesis 6:4-5 ¨4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. 5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.¨ You could say that at this point in time it was too late, God saw where man was headed and how the demons had persay ¨infected¨ them.
God creates an imperfect mankind because it pleased him, I mean think about it, make something that is perfect that will automatically choose you or make something imperfect that might love you? Which is a more perfect kind of love? Which is more rewarding? I just don't see the evil or the maliciousness you are describing.
As to your last point there is no way to back your first idea and I would appreciate it if you don´t assume to know about my parents and how I came to be a Christian especially because you know little to nothing about me sir. You do have a good knowledge of the bible though, and your arguments are very intelligent/thought provoking.
You're welcome ; my masters was in fine arts and I wish you every good wish with your chosen path.
The bible has laws restricting the abuse of slaves ? The passages I cited would totally disagree with your assessment which makes the bible contradictory to say the least .
What your doing now is using bible verses to contradict .... bible verses which to me makes no sense as I can do like wise as I'm sure you know ;
You don't see the evil of a loving god slaughtering men women and children would you not find that contradictory to say the least ?
My last point is in answer to your enquiry about indoctrination , and if you came to your belief other than the way I put forward well you're unique and somewhat interesting , you shouldn't get upset at genuine answers to an enquiry if you do not seek an honest opinion which is all I can give as I do not indeed know you or your history .
Thank you, we could probably go on with this forever as we both seem firm in our beliefs, I was not very upset, but I guess I was a little annoyed because it felt somewhat like a stereotype, and one I would not fit into. Thank you for your honest opinions I enjoyed this debate. Maybe we should do it in a less touchy subject some other time huh? I would enjoy learning more about fine art because I have never had much experience with it.
Thank you also it was good to talk ; I get it that people don't like to be labelled or categorised in the way I did with you so no offence intended , the majority come to belief through indoctrination it was generally accepted as fact when I was growing up now people get very uncomfortable with the term .
I don't get upset or touchy about the topic as I find it a fun topic 👌😀 and you may ask anything you wish and I will answer honestly .
Anything you wish to know about fine art ask away you're one of the good people on CD and I predict a bright future for you 👌😀
Why is it so hard for you to believe that people collectively want to be good to each other? Why is the only explanation for morality that you can accept simply you have to be good or else god will send you to hell? And if that's the only reason you're good then aren't you really NOT good at your core?
I'm not sure what you mean by "atheistic morality" no more than I would understand "theistic morality". Neither atheism nor theism offer a moral code to go by, it's just simply a non-belief or a belief in a god. Theists get their morals from their brand of religion, whereas atheists often get their morals from the idea of Humanism; doing what's best for mankind and to further our species.
Morals from a deity are like rules from your parents. They don't necessarily make sense, but you listen because that's what you were told to do and don't want to get in trouble. Some teach it's immoral to eat pork, wear a cotton blend, show your face if you're a woman, say certain words because, reasons. When asked why the only answer is, "because insert god here said so". Ask an atheist why they do or don't do certain things and the answers make more sense, such as not wanting to cause pain to someone else.
Okay first off, I claim to be a Christian and I am a creationist, say what you want. However I don´t see why atheists can´t be moral even if you are from my point of view. It is not that Christians just automatically upgrade unto a new level of goodness when they start to follow Christ, it just means that they are striving to become more like him. I believe that Christ is perfect and I want to be more like that, however in the meantime I will constantly fall short. There are plenty of good men and women that are atheists and their are plenty of people that are Christians who are pretty jacked up. I mean if you look at it from my perspective God made us all with freewill so that we will be able to choose to love him, so that we can choose good. But how can people be free if they cant choose to be bad or good? God is the ultimate source of goodness but that does not mean atheists can not be good. Atheistic morality makes total sense.
Objective morality is really what makes no sense. If theres an objective morality its completely and utterly useless to the point where it might as well not even exist. Because ive had moral disagreements with people. The fact that we dont agree on morality proves objective morality doesnt exist. What christians or religious folk say is objective morality really isnt objective morality. Its god's subjective morality. He is the one who made it up. And the only reason its objective is not because everyone follows it but because god has authority over everyone. Which is essentially "might makes right". Sure i cant impose my morality on god but only because i lack the power to do so. But that doesnt make my morality any less legitimate. Furthermore even if there was an objective morality that were all accountable to its clear that we also have our own subjective moralities which we use on a day to day basis. And they are apparently much more useful to us than the objective standard that nobody can agree on and that has no enforcement mechanism in this lifetime. Also the guy in the debate completely discounts society as a whole. We are able to make moral agreements as a society. So yes, my personal morality may differ from a rapists morality, but then again, the vast majority of people agree with me and not with him. So i have the full brunt of society with me to the point where i can make that person conform with my reality. This societal morality really stems from evolutionary theory. Empathy is really the key to our morality as humans. We are able to make moral calculations about our actions and predict what will happen and how it will affect others because we are able to envision ourselves in thier shoes.
Our brains evolved this capacity for empathy because it had to, otherwise we wouldve died out as a species. Our greatest strength and tool in the wild was our strength in numbers and our ability to coordinate group action. If we had no concept of morality then communal society would never work. If i didnt understand the concept that when i kill someone's mother they dont like that, then i would kill their mom and they would hate me and they would kill me or my family because they dont understand morality either. And everyone would just do what they selfishly wanted to and society breaks down completely. But if im able to think to myself how someone killing MY mom would make me feel, it makes me far less likely to do it.
If we humans couldnt work together we would just die out. Were squishy little water sacs with no inherent defense system. No fangs, no claws, no venom, no physical strength in relation to other predators out there. The only thing we ever had going for us was our strength in numbers. Put one man out in the bush and hes dead in a few days. Put a dozen men out in the bush and they take down a mammoth and feast like kings.
To summarize:
there is a very clear and apparent evolutionary basis for morality or the mechanisms by which we can have the capacity for moral judgement
and
Objective morality cannot even be agreed upon and is essentially useless even if it does exist, and if it does then it still doesnt mean we dont follow our own subjective moralities which we obviously do.
Atheistic morality is no different the religious morality. People who believe in Atheistic morality just realize that there beliefs are subjective while those who are religious think that their beliefs are the word of god.
Not really. All Atheism has is "survival of the fittest". Per those terms, if Darwinism is right, to have morals in an evolutionary flaw to domination and survival, thus is actually stupid and thus, not useful to even have them...
You are confusing atheism with evolution. They are different.
Per those terms, if Darwinism is right, to have morals in an evolutionary flaw to domination and survival, thus is actually stupid and thus, not useful to even have them...
False. People who have no morals are more likely to be punished by those with morals and are less likely to survive.
And yet Atheists openly admit that "if someone was a real Christian", they'd act "good', meaning they admit that a "real Christian" has moral high ground. Nevertheless, you're goodness is meaningless to God because He sees your badness, knows your thoughts, and knows your heart.
And yet Atheists openly admit that "if someone was a real Christian", they'd act "good', meaning they admit that a "real Christian" has moral high ground.
No, it means that Jesus was an atheist.
Nevertheless, you're goodness is meaningless to God because He sees your badness, knows your thoughts, and knows your heart.
That doesn't cause you to act like a good person, why would it cause me to act like a good person?
1)So give us an actual argument as to why "Jesus was an Atheist", seeing you are on a debate site.
2)No one is a good person according to the Bible, because God can see the heart, motives, desires, lusts, and the evil within, thus he sees no one as "good". That's the entire point.
