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Does religious inclination define an individual's successfulness?
There is a large number of religious communities and individuals throughout the world. The question is, what does it do for us in the way of determination and motivation? Do religous people see more goals to the end because they have something to believe in? How?
i don't think religion defines one's success, i find it hard to believe that there is no such thing as a successful atheist. but i think religion may improve the odds of one's success due to its personal benefits. believing in a deity does have its own motivations with supposedly having that god helping you or wanting to do well in the name of that god. religion is a rather good coping mechanism for issues both fatal and day-to-day. religion for better or worse, or when you have a problem i've seen people determined to get through it as a test of sorts. also helps you believe in whatever it is you are doing. some people i meet i honestly think would have a far harder time without religion in their lives, so while i disagree with it, and there has been some nasty history, i think it benefits the average life and production.
believing in a deity does have its own motivations with supposedly having that god helping you or wanting to do well in the name of that god.
Why can't you motivate yourself by wanting to something for you. Or for humanity? Or on a smaller scale, for the people around you or your family or something? Why does it have to be an invisible monster that you read about in some book? Is humanity so absolutely not worth anything we have to resort to the imagination?
Edit: Just to be clear, I don't disagree with a lot of what you said. I totally get how religion can be helpful. I just don't think that religion has to be the way to get those benefits; and I think it's kind of sad people have to be bribed and threatened with promises of an afterlife in order to do things right instead of doing things because they are the right thing to do.
you can motivate yourself by whatever means you wish, but religion has that in neat package provided for you (even as a delusion). i'm sure people also motivate themselves for their family and god simultaneously, no stretch at all.
Is humanity so absolutely not worth anything we have to resort to the imagination?
it isn't humanity, but circumstance. in a war, it is nice to feel that everything will blow over because god is good. when someone close to you is sick, it is nice to feel that you can try to help them in prayer, and if they die, it is nice to know there is somewhere pleasant they will be for all eternity. same thing for your own future. as far as i know existential crisis isn't much of a problem in religion either. honestly it could make me jealous.
resorting to the imagination is common outside of religion too. escapism is about as common as breathing; holidays, books, films, games. not the only reason for entertainment, but a valid one.
i agree as well, there shouldn't need to be any system to get people
to do things right instead of doing things because they are the right thing to do.
"...And I think it's kind of sad people have to be bribed and threatened with promises of an afterlife in order to do things right instead of doing things because they are the right thing to do."
I am definitely supporting the no side but I think in the way you word this implies that religon only exists so human morale is maintained.
I don't agree with this at all. Although I don't think successfulness is defined by religious inclination, it stands to reason that religion has a purpose and it's definitely not to enforce selfishness and narcissism.
It's the belief that we are being looked after that's reassuring and if that happens to lead us to an afterlife- sure. Society is not led to religon because we've been bribed or "threatened": we do it because it's a better way of life to be optimistic, and may coincide with a culture we are passionate about.
It's the belief that we are being looked after that's reassuring and if that happens to lead us to an afterlife- sure. Society is not led to religon because we've been bribed or "threatened": we do it because it's a better way of life to be optimistic, and may coincide with a culture we are passionate about.
That may be true to some degree, but religions that include 'judgement' and afterlives such as Heaven and Hell come with an inherent treat: the religion may exist to help guide people on a path to being a better person (but if you don't follow these rules you will immediately be judged by an omnipotent being who knows all your thoughts and actions and then when you die you will suffer for eternity).
Even if the general foundations of religion, this judgement is a form of scare tactics.
Anyone who has a religion for the sake of an "inherent treat" obviously hasn't learnt much about human morale, which is what the worshipping of a deity is supposed to enforce. I do agree that religion guides people on a path to being a better person, but the way I learnt religion at school (even as an agnostic individual) was that God was forgiving of you as long as you worshipped him and/ or sought repentance.
Even if religion is a form of scare tactics, though, we are arguing whether religious inclination defines an individual's successfulness. If a person is not determined to be successful, scare tactics aren't going to suddenly become the dictatorship which persuades them to care.
You aren't being clear as to which side you are on, so clarify now (because on two of your contributions on this side, one says yes and the other says no).
Hundreds of millions of believers draw strength, courage and great comfort from religion. It serves as a means to teach the young moral values. While I no longer believe, I can still recall the assurance that religion provided.
Successfulness is no very specific in the OP, but I'll go with "successful life" as being the question. Yes defiantly the benefits I've mentioned are components of success and contented happiness in life.
Most organized religions are powerful networking tools. If you don't mind deceit, pursuing a religion that fits your career can be enormously beneficial.
I meant deceit towards others, specifically the religion of your choice. If you don't believe the specific religion, but recognize the advantages it brings to your career, then you should join as long as you don't mind lying to those around you.
People know that you can still have those advantages, with or without a religion. Determination is enough to get somewhere in your career- whether that is inspired by family or friends.
If a uni student doesn't already have a religion, then he/she isn't going to suddenly acquire one thinking that it will benefit his/her learning.
People know that you can still have those advantages, with or without a religion. Determination is enough to get somewhere in your career- whether that is inspired by family or friends.
That is simply not true. A broad and influential network is far more advantageous than strong work ethics. While there are certainly other networks that also help to advance careers, religion, in majority religious countries, will have the highest benefit to cost ratio.
If a uni student doesn't already have a religion, then he/she isn't going to suddenly acquire one thinking that it will benefit his/her learning.
What is to stop someone from joining a religious gathering in order to benefit themselves? Like I said, if you don't mind deceit, there is nothing to stop you from taking advantage.
A broad and influential network is far more advantageous than strong work ethics.
This depends on a person's passions. If religion drives them- so be it. If you're inspired by a famous person related to those passions, that is perfectly okay too. If they aren't especially intelligent, religion won't suddenly be their go-to solution for that schooling struggling. It doesn't make sense. Plenty of intelligent people I know are either atheists or agnostic. They didn't need religion in their lives to understand mathematical equations or the physiology of the human body.
...religion, in major(ity?)(ly?) religious countries, will have the highest benefit to cost ratio
I'm sorry; I don't understand the benefit to cost ratio you're talking about. I might need some clarification before I can agree/disagree with that.
What is to stop someone from joining a religious gathering in order to benefit themselves? Like I said, if you don't mind deceit, there is nothing to stop you from taking advantage.
This statement sounds accusatory, and it would be somewhat selfish for a person to do this. If a person acquires a religion to become suddenly smarter, then they aren't truly religious. To attend religious gatherings and do prayers to God-or some other deity- is a waste of time if you don't even believe in it. Religion comes from culture or passion, not narcissism. I think I talked about this earlier with pirateelfdog.
You are misinterpreting my original statement. This has nothing to do with being smarter. This is just about networking. It is much easier to join a religious group than to join a private country club or a private fraternity. There is almost no effort involved to access these enormous networks.
To attend religious gatherings and do prayers to God-or some other deity- is a waste of time if you don't even believe in it.
Even without the spiritual aspect, if it helps your career, many people will see the benefit of joining such groups. Some people even join congregations purely for the social aspect. This is why I brought up deceit in my original statement. While it could be viewed as deceptive, it is no worse than joining a fraternity or a country club under similar pretenses.
Anyone can work hard without network too. I am not trying to eliminate the option to network, but one can live without it to succeed. This is what the debate is about: We're arguing over whether all religious people excel at their profession. It's almost like a debate of a stereotype. It's like saying all Koreans are smart. Do you think this is true? It's not something to dispute, but to think about. Not all people in one group have aptitude in their preferred craft. Survey professors at any college or university and I'm sure you will find no one who joined religion for success.
Anyone can work hard without network too. I am not trying to eliminate the option to network, but one can live without it to succeed. This is what the debate is about: We're arguing over whether all religious people excel at their profession.
If you consider the fact that they have access to a large network not available to those who are not religious, then yes, they do have an obvious advantage.
Working hard is only part of the picture.
It's like saying all Koreans are smart.
It would be closer to saying people in developed countries are better off than people in developing countries. One group has something the other does not. There are obvious advantages.
So, yes, you are still missing the point. You need to think of this objectively. Success is a culmination of decisions, effort, and "luck" (opportunities). Organized religion provides access to more opportunities and guidance on decisions regarding those opportunities.
EDIT: I just noticed that you suggested intelligence = success. This is not true. Intelligence can be a factor towards success, but if you have ever worked in the professional world, you would know that intelligence is one of the least useful factors for the average career.
EDIT: I just noticed that you suggested intelligence = success.
I'm sorry if I suggested that.
We're arguing over whether all religious people excel at their profession.
Note how I included this in bold once I realised how I kept bringing up intelligence. I know that many careers don't require mathematical abilities, like skateboarding (unless, of course, you want to go on about the angles of the slopes, etc). The fact that I included Koreans as an example of stereotyping just happened to be about intelligence- I wasn't basing the whole successfulness spectrum on that.
Working hard is only part of the picture.
Extending that metaphor: it's a part that can continue to survive on its own, and can be added to not just with the "paint" of religion. You could add the glitter of positivity, the "hand of a girlfriend/boyfriend".
There are obvious advantages.
I do agree there are advantages. Did I say there was none? Like nomoturtle stated with religion, there are certain benefits to having a faith. However: I don't think you have to be a part of the Christian or Muslim community to succeed.
You need to think of this objectively. Success is a culmination of decisions, effort, and "luck" (opportunities). Organized religion provides access to more opportunities and guidance on decisions regarding those opportunities.
Yes. That's true. However, just because it is a platform, it doesn't make it the only platform. A teacher/professor/peer who is up-to-date on the goings-on in a community can be helpful. If you ask a relevant teacher/professor/peer for advice on the area you are interested in, they can help. There are other platforms to give you information before and while you make a "culmination of decisions and effort". Religion is not necessary in this regard, and it is only one way of doing things. I do agree that there are benefits. I'm not trying to say there are none.
You are still not getting it. I am not talking about choosing religion over another platform or working hard or anything else. You can do it alongside any other advantage you choose.
I am saying it is one of the easiest and largest networks to access in most of the western world. Even if you don't believe in the religion, it would be beneficial to join.
Since we are talking about inclinations towards success, any and all advantages should be taken in order to increase the chance for success.
This just means that the same individual with religion will have an easier time succeeding than without.
Since we are talking about inclinations towards success, any and all advantages should be taken in order to increase the chance for success.
... This is really getting on. I know that if I thought an easily accessible religious network would make my performance in my preferred craft easier, I would. But that's not how it works here. You practice.
Religion is a part of your personal life that puts beliefs in your hand and, in the end, it really is up to you whether you devour them or toss them out in the trash. If we took any and all advantages available we would be overwhelmed with things to see and do. If I was in a chess club and a debating club and a vocal group and an art club and dance group- will that make me an assertive, successful person? I don't think so. If anything, it only makes life more stressful. Especially when you don't like it. Recreational support is as easily sought- as I mentioned earlier- from teachers, professors, peers and family.
You say that it is the easiest and largest networks to join- and I agree- but I can't see how this will benefit someone who achieves their life's work with execution, not prayer.
If I am still not getting it, obviously you haven't been explaining it well enough. :-P
The only reason you are still not getting it is because you do not seem to understand what a network is.
You say that it is the easiest and largest networks to join- and I agree- but I can't see how this will benefit someone who achieves their life's work with execution, not prayer.
Based on your description, you seem to define it as something that improves the skills relevant to your career. A network has nothing to do with your ability, it is about career opportunities. One example would be a LinkedIn network.
Based on your description, you seem to define it as something that improves the skills relevant to your career. A network has nothing to do with your ability, it is about career opportunities. One example would be the LinkedIn network.
I defined it as something that improves the skills relevant to your career because it is the end product. Were you to access a network like LinkedIn, you would improve your knowledge in the field of your choice. Career opportunities offer you experience: it has everything to do with your ability. This is what we're debating.
However, it is up to the person whether or not to consider the networks available.
Scientific studies aren't going to show that all religious people are vets, doctors, scientists, etc.
Were you to access a network like LinkedIn, you would improve your knowledge in the field of your choice. Career opportunities offer you experience: it has everything to do with your ability. This is what we're debating.
LinkedIn does not train you. There is no direct improvement of knowledge from joining a social network. They just provide access to resources that would otherwise be unavailable.
Career opportunities do not always offer new experiences or improve some skill set. They generally offer ways to advance your career.
Again, you seem to misunderstand what a successful career entails or what a network provides.
However, it is up to the person whether or not to consider the networks available.
Since we are talking about success, taking advantage of all available resources tends to be viewed as a positive towards career success.
Scientific studies aren't going to show that all religious people are vets, doctors, scientists, etc.
I am not sure why you think I implied that religious people are all vets, doctors, scientists or that there are scientific studies showing this.
I did not make these claims explicitly and I still can't find these implications in any of my previous statements.
LinkedIn does not train you. There is no direct improvement of knowledge from joining a social network. They just provide access to resources that would otherwise be unavailable.
What I meant was that LinkedIn can widen your circle so you can share experiences, knowledge etc. and tell me: what resources? I am dying to know.
Career opportunities do not always offer new experiences or improve some skill set. They generally offer ways to advance your career.
Let me ask you then, what does, by your standards, "advancing" one's career entail? We must clearly have differing definitions of what "advancing a career" actually means. To me, it means gaining experience, knowledge, or insight into your profession. A successful career is one that a person is good at and enjoys. Maybe it is you who has a different opinion on what it means but many other people would agree with me on this.
I am not sure why you think I implied that religious people are all vets, doctors, scientists or that there are scientific studies showing this. I did not make these statements explicitly and I still can't find these implications in any of my previous statements.
That's because they aren't there. I was simply trying to provide some evidence, but obviously this confused you, so I'll stop.
What I meant was that LinkedIn can widen your circle so you can share experiences, knowledge etc. and tell me: what resources? I am dying to know.
I am not sure if you have ever used LinkedIn, but the main purpose is not to share experiences or knowledge. It is to create a network of contacts. Wiki
Let me ask you then, what does, by your standards, "advancing" one's career entail? We must clearly have differing definitions of what "advancing a career" actually means. To me, it means gaining experience, knowledge, or insight into your profession. A successful career is one that a person is good at and enjoys. Maybe it is you who has a different opinion on what it means but many other people would agree with me on this.
Advancement of career has little to do with gaining experience, knowledge, or insight into your profession. We are talking about advancement towards success as indicated by the original question. Success is generally qualified by the money you make, the position you hold, the influence you have, and the recognition you receive within your field.
Your definition relates to professional competency. That has little to do with actual success.
Like I said earlier, you do not seem to understand what a successful career entails. You have confused success with fulfillment. A fulfilling career could certainly be defined as one where you enjoy your work and furthering your knowledge. A successful career could also include these, but they are definitely not required or even prioritized.
That's because they aren't there. I was simply trying to provide some evidence, but obviously this confused you, so I'll stop.
Why are you trying to use this "evidence" to counter something that I never mentioned? It is not my confusion but yours. You have misinterpreted something and that has lead to this unrelated response.
Determination is enough to get somewhere in your career- whether that is inspired by family or friends.
No, it isn't. Management is human (I think) and they determine who advances. They are subject to human flaws and will make decisions based on who their favorites are much of the time instead of who is more determined.
No, those who don't believe in an ''after life'', make a much greater effort to achieve success and happiness from the one they have on earth. They don't live in cloud cuckoo land believing in some mythical land of Shanghai-La where people fly around with enormous wings and everyone eats at the right hand of some God or other. Like junkies who cannot face the harsh realities of life without hiding in a drug induced stupor, so religious zealots shirk the responsibility for their own lives and place it in the hands of a big invisible, silent, shy man in the sky. The atheist knows that this life is no dress rehearsal and endeavors to make the most of it in the certain knowledge that when it's over, it's over. When the door closes another one doesn't open. The only after life is the parent's genes which live on in their children.
