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All you are going to get from these Progressive bigots are verses from Old Testament Jewish law. These Bigots judge and ridicule Christians based on laws before Christ.
Jesus said he without sin cast the first stone against the adulterous woman.
These same bigots who constantly insult the Christian faith never say a thing against Islam which does teach it is ok to beat and even kill women.
They are such laughable phonies who rail against the Christian faith when it teaches to love even our enemies.
Do you believe we should discard all the laws from the Old Testament? The verse about selling your daughters as slaves is part of the same speech where God gave the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:1β17). So, should we discard those too? Nothing in the new testament says slavery should be abolished. Quite the contrary. It says, "Servants [slaves], be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ."
Women are still considered inferior to men in the New Testament, as can be seen in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."
Since the 10 commandments and the verses about selling your daughters as slaves are from the same speech, what criteria do you use to determine the instructions from it that we should still follow, and which ones should be discarded?
Ok, what specifically in the context tells us that the 10 commandments are still in effect, but the verse about selling your daughters into slavery is not?
It's called "cherry picking". The 10 commandments can stand up to scrutiny better than selling your daughter. It's always baffled me how the people who teach OT law no longer being relevant are the same people who believe their God is unchanging. Can't have it both ways.
If you believe slavery is always wrong, doesn't it bother you that god said that your father can sell you as a slave? Does that sound like something a benevolent god would say, or does it sound more like something men would falsely claim god said?
If Trump gave a speech saying, "Starting tomorrow you can buy slaves. They will become your property and you can beat them." Would you have a problem with that? Would you think he was supporting slavery?
I don't see anything in Philemon that is relevant to this conversation.
Dana, I've asked you numerous questions, and so far you've dodged nearly all of them. So, before we go further, please answer these questions.
1. You said "context was key" Please provide a chapter and verse, or concede that there is nothing in the context.
2. If you believe slavery is always wrong, doesn't it bother you that god said that your father can sell you as a slave?
3. Does that sound like something a benevolent god would say, or does it sound more like something men would falsely claim god said?
4. If Trump gave a speech saying, "Starting tomorrow you can buy slaves. They will become your property and you can beat them." Would you have a problem with that? Would you think he was supporting slavery?
5. What in Philemon is relevant to this conversation?
6. Will there be free will in heaven?
7. Did evil and suffering exist before god created life?
I guess that depends....and I'm sorry for the dispute, I wish there was a different option....on if you believe the Bible is truly just the word of God. To me it sounds more like something men would falsely claim God said, which would of course cast shade over the entirety of the Bible. But to me that's not necessarily a bad thing. Questioning leads to enlightenment.
The passage in Exodus was for a man taking payment from another man, both of them men under the same law of God, and the maid servant was to be protected and treated as a wife. The passage clearly states that if the man decides he does not want to keep her as his wife he is supposed to protect her and care for her as a wife or set her free....without harm. There is nothing in the passage implying the maid servant is a sex slave while them man marries another woman, there is nothing in the passage implying to woman is a slave. "Maidservant" is the correct term, "female slave" is a perversion used by haters of God who are intellectually lazy.
That was old testament law for Israel, given by God to protect the women, forbidding the women from being subservient to nations outside of Israel who would not honor the law of God.
The New Testament guidelines for church leadership had nothing to do with the laws governing a man selling his daughter into a marital arrangement.
And I'm not going to read your reply, I reluctantly read your post here only because I see you quoting the Bible and I know that being the pervert you are you will try to twist it in evil ways and should be rebuked. Why people think they are smart when they listen to idiots who twist wordings and ignore facts and history is a mystery except that it is a symptom of being in rebellion against God, desperate to prove God does not have the right to confine sinners in eternal condemnation of dying in Hell fire forever like a frying eternal sausage which screams in agony.
In the Roman Empire, bond servants were allowed by law and Christians are always instructed to obey the laws of the land as long as those laws do not demand idolatry or breaking of God's law. Christians who were under masters were instructed to honor the Lord Jesus Christ by being respectful and obedient toward their masters. The epistle of Philemon was written to a man who was master over a servant who had fled, and who had turned to the Savior and became a Christian under the preaching/teaching of Paul. Paul wrote that letter appealing for Christian forgiveness and compassion to allow the servant who had unlawfully fled to return without punishment to his master.
And there is nothing wrong with the leadership of the church being an office reserved for the men. The "speak" in the church referred to there in context is women being in positions of leadership over men in the church. Women have a special role, and men have a special role in the church, both are honorable and respectable...equal but different and that is how God made us.
"The passage clearly states that if the man decides he does not want to keep her as his wife he is supposed to protect her and care for her as a wife or set her free....without harm."
The fact that you can say that without realizing how messed up it is is very disturbing. It says a man can buy a wife, and then if he isn't happy with his purchase he can kick her to the curb.
"There is nothing in the passage implying the maid servant is a sex slave"
I never said it implied that.
"There is nothing in the passage implying to woman is a slave. 'Maidservant' is the correct term, 'female slave' is a perversion used by haters of God who are intellectually lazy."
You're the one who is intellectually lazy. I even included a link directly to the word, but apparently you're so lazy you couldn't even click a link. The word is 'amah, and it means any of the following: maid-servant, female slave, maid, handmaid, concubine. Given the context of the verse it is clearly talking about a woman who is bought for the purpose of doing her master's bidding and/or being his wife or the wife of his son. It says she is to serve him for life, unlike men which are set free after 7 years, which is a reference to verse 2.
"That was old testament law for Israel, given by God to protect the women, forbidding the women from being subservient to nations outside of Israel who would not honor the law of God."
So allowing women to be sold as slaves and/or wives is protecting them. Got it.
"Women have a special role, and men have a special role in the church, both are honorable and respectable...equal but different and that is how God made us."
Women's role is to sit down and shut up. Such an honorable and respectable role. /s
I answered you, you're a closed minded hater, there's nothing to argue about.
You need to be concerned about your sin which keeps you separated from God, you need to be reconciled to God and saved from Hell. I really do feel sorry for you. You've been told enough how God loves you and you can be saved from Hell. I guess you won't be saved, will you? There is no use in casting pearls before swine, to I turn away from you and leave you behind.
You hate the truth, don't you? You want to believe you are exonerated in death, don't you? You think you are better, stronger, smarter than God, don't you? You would rather trample the blood of Jesus Christ under your feet and spit in His face than believe you deserve to die and He is the Innocent One who died for you because He is God and loves you, wouldn't you?
You are so ignorant, the law was given to Jews, the young woman sold as a hand maid was to be sold only to Jew and she was to be protected and treated like a wife or set free. Idiot's like you who want to justify their perversions have nothing better to do than to try to obscure the truth.
God took on Himself the form of a man to become the Lamb of God who died for the sins of man and fulfilled the Law (Old Testament) which was sealed by the blood of an animal. Now God has by His own blood made a new covenant (New Testament) and is the head of the church which is His bride, and men are to love their wives as Jesus loved the church, men are to be the leaders in the church and the protectors of the women.
If you have a problem with that, it is highly likely that you were molested as a child and are a pervert today.
You can find examples of this area of law in the Book of Ruth, and in Samuel when David loved Rachel and worked to purchase her from her father to be his wife. It wasn't slavery where the slave, male or female, has no rights.
If this was about slavery it would make no difference if it was a man or woman being sold....it's about protecting the women, plain and simple.
You need an education, so you won't sound like a stupid parrot copy and pasting from Anti-Christian websites where the people know nothing about what they are talking about.
The story of the adulterous woman wasn't included in the bible until hundreds of years after Jesus was dead. Regardless, it is quite clear biblical figures all consider women inferior to men, as does Islam, as you mention.
Both backwards ways of thinking. Outdated, hundreds of years ago.
You know nothing of what you speak. The New Testament says that the Christian husband shall be the head of the house. This does not in any way say the woman is inferior. God recognises the roles of men and women as does the animal kingdom.
I thought you evolutionists say we are all animals. Do you see the obviois roles of male and female animals.
Why is it you refuse to acknowledge that natural roles of men and women? Man is the stronger of the genders and is better equipped to support a family. Women have more of a nurturing nature whereby they breast feed our babies and fill the obvious roles of a mother in a family environment.
This does not mean they have to fill the obvious roles of mothers. They can choose to go opposite their roles and this is their right to do so. Sure a father can be the home maker, and pump mothers milk from the mother, and deny the obvious.
People of faith have no problem following the obvious roles of our genders.
This is no way makes a woman inferior. It makes her who she is.... a woman!
Are you Progressives the new age humanist God telling everyone what you deem as outdated.
You pretend to care so much for women and minorities, while you legalize the killing of viable late term abortions for any reason.
Have you ANY idea how insanely barbaric and hypocritical you are? Peope ike you new age enlightened Progressives care more for a woman not following her natural role in life, then you care for the lives of our most innocent babies.
YOU ARE TOTALLY LOST IN YOUR SO CALLED FORWARD THINKING.
Your new forward updated thinking sacrifices human lives for personal convienence.
Do you even possess the simplest of intellect to see it?
Christians possess the humanity to not sacrifice their young for the sake of convienence.
I have no issue acknowledging the biological capabilities of our genders and how they lend to certain behaviours. However, it is you who seems to be under the notion that we are part of a society which demands women to be constantly pregnant and men to need to hunt and fend off fighters, like our wild distant cousins. I however, think we are intellectually past that. These roles you speak of, while arguably natural (and I'm sure that we would revert to them should the rule of law ever be abandoned), are not necessary in much of today's world. They obviously were two thousand years ago, when men's word was law, when wives were seen as property, much like daughters, to be traded, sold, and raped; when women and girls were disallowed to express opinions in gatherings; forced to wear head-dress; considered stupid and disallowed formal educations; and given the role of tending to children while men leave their wives and children to run off with Jeebuz. Stellar.
The world owes you and your cult no respect, now that we are in a position to dissent against you. And the great thing is that you'll find no stoning, no torture and no cutting off of hands or genitals here: a luxury you and your ilk did not afford freethinkers throughout much of history. So excuse me if I happen to offend your idiotic, dogmatic, didactic, anti-intellectual convictions, snowflake, but religion's days are numbered and I am gleefully willing to hasten its demise in any which way I possibly can.
As for abortion, when did I express to you my views on that? You have no idea what my views on abortion are.
You are the typical hypocritical Progressive spewing your so called enlightend compassion for women while your sick selfish torture of our most inocent viable babies makes you nothing more than pathetic animals.
You have the nerve to speak of no torture, no cutting off of hands, when YOU AND YOUR BARBARIC ENLIGHTENED PROGRESSIVES SUPPORT DISMEMBERING VIABLE BABIES AT ANY STAGE FOR ANY REASON.
You spew pure bigoted lies! Tell me one Christian church that supports the garbage you just spewed.
YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT MUSLIMS WHO DO THAT STUFF! Where's your outrage against Muslims?
Nah, you bigots constantly attack Christians with pure lies! I told you that God says the man shoud be the head of the house. So what do fools like you say? You start spewing pure garbage about things that may have happened thousands of years ago before Christ was even born. You mindless fool.
Try speaking to Christians and what they support today. Nah, bigots must live back thousands of years to try and make excuses for their bigotry.
I don't have to ask you your views of abortion. I've debated thousands of bigots like you. I'm sure you would vote for Democrats who support no restriction abortions. That puts the blood of those late term viable babies on your hands.
It is people like you who ACTUALLY DO SUPPORT DISMEMBERING AN INNOCENT BABY'S BODY!
People like you support dismembering girl babies and you have the nerve to speak to treatment of women?
So tell us all, are you pro life or pro choice. Don't bother, I'm about 99% sure you are pro choice especially if you vote for Democrats. Are you even old enough to vote?
If you want to live in the past, just a few hundred years ago, Democrats supported slavery while republicans were the ones trying to stop it! But I'm not an idiot living in the past.
Clearly you've completely lost your cool, and your reasoning faculties along with it.
Abortion is completely irrelevant to this debate (does the bible teach the enslavement of women?), but for your information, I happen to be staunchly against abortion at any time for any reason: I think it's rather barbaric and irresponsible. That said, when a woman is raped and impregnated against her will, I think she should have the right to NOT be forced to give birth against her will too. The same goes for victims of pederasts and women whose babies will be born so badly disabled that they merely exist.
I also think that the term limit imposed at present (26 weeks, usually) is too long. I think 20 weeks is more than enough time for anyone to decide whether they want to keep the baby or not (again, excepting for the instances of rape or paedophilia as described above).
As for Muslims, again, what Muslims do is irrelevant to this debate (Does the bible teach enslavement of women?), but since you ask: I think the enslavement of women is always wrong, regardless of the religion. So yes, Muslims who degrade and supplicate women are at least as idiotic as Christians who do it.
Your final comments on democrats and republicans are quite irrelevant, too. I'm neither a Democrat, or a Republican. They are also quite misleading: the Republicans of old were a liberal, forward thinking party, while the Democrats were conservative. Those roles have reversed. Comparing Lincoln's Republicans to Donald Trump's republicans is stupid: they have totally different outlooks.
Again you spew lies saying Christians treat women badly. I've gone to many different Christian Churches and not one of them ever speaks to treating women badly. They actually teach Christians to love their wives as Christ loved the Church!
Since you have not ruled out voting for these radical abortion Democrats, YOU WILL BE SUPPORTING NO RESTRICTION ABORTIONS WHEN VOTING FOR THEM.
The GOP has tried a number of times to get Democrts to pass a 20 week abortion limit(with extreme case exceptions) and the Democrats refuse to compromise.
Democrats use the wording "health of mother" because this allows all abortions as long as the mother simply says she is depressed over the pregnancy.
I use abortion to show the Left's total inhumanity and hypocrisy when speaking to issues such as enslavement to women. The last i knew, killing viable girl babies for any reason is as bad as it gets.
Go after Muslims if you want to actually address enslavement of women.
He is not disagreeing with what the old testament says, his point is jesus made new teachings many of which were clarifications or changes to things interpreted to man in the old testament.
The problem is he is just picking and choosing the stuff from the Old Testament that he likes, and ignoring the things he doesn't like. See my response to Sitar below about the 10 commandments being from the same speech.
Exodus 21 is God's instructions to protect young women who are bought by a dowry for marriage. God give these guidelines as law to protect the women from abuse. The mindless parrots who try to twist this into the same thing as slave trading which protects no right of the enslaved only prove that they are intellectually lazy, they hate God, they hate Christians, and they hate the Bible.........closed minded fools.
What is the obsession with KJV? The Bible was not written in this language or translation, nor is it the most accurate even compared with more modern translations.
You're misinformed on this issue. "Modern translations" are all based on manuscripts which were rejected as corrupt by church leaders. God preserved His word, God guided it's translation into English and there is only one Bible or all of them are wannabees and none of them are correct. God kept His word pure, and men who obeyed God in peril of their own lives brought us the King James Bible, they paid with their blood in horrible executions from enemies of God who wanted to keep His word obscured.......and all modern versions try to obscure God's word by confusion, changing words and meanings, deleting tens of thousands of words and many entire passages..............
But you are lost, so you really don't care, you don't believe God cares about you so why would you believe God cares about His word and opposes people who try to imply we really don't know what it is and we can change it to whatever we think it should be.
Modern Bible versions twists wordings allowing for confusion, and you won't be able by using them to show God's intention for women in ancient Israel was to protect them. People here are twisting wordings around, ignoring cultural context and failing to see the law of God was put in place for the protection of women in the Old Testament. "Enslavement of women" is a very loose term, and the way it sounds is never condoned by the Bible in any place, but with the way modern fake Bibles like the NKJV and NASB twists word meanings obscuring context and distracting from the cultural contexts, you will not be able to show that people who are trying to say the Bible supports slavery in the broad and evil sense are wrong....and they are wrong, and they are intellectually lazy for failing to question what they think is unanswerable rhetoric which they have bought into mindlessly......
NKJV is from Hell, it should be burned the same as NASB, NSV, and all the rest of them. God's word is preserved in English in the King James Bible. God promised He would keep His word pure and preserved without error down to the tiniest punctuation mark forever. People who think they can pick and choose for themselves what God's word is, and use multiple varying translations are misguided and most of them are not even saved.
God's instructions for the care and protection of women is entirely different from the Koran
That is a good translation. I prefer to use the NKJV.....................................................................................................
Many of the words used in the KJV had different meanings today than they did back in King James time. The NASB is a more up-to-date translation that uses modern English and also takes into account the tens of thousands of Biblical manuscripts that have been discovered, and the wealth of knowledge of the Hebrew and Greek languages and cultures that has been learned over the past 400+ years since the KJV was published. I'll respect your wishes to use the KJV, but I'll also include the NASB version, which is much more clear.
"And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant [female slave], she shall not go out [be set free] as the menservants do [male slaves were set free after 7 years Exodus 21:1-6]. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters. If he take him another wife [polygamy]; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money."
βIf a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do. If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her. If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters. If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights. If he will not do these three things for her, then she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money."
----------
To summarize, men can sell their daughters as slaves and/or wives. If her master isn't happy with her, he can't sell her to someone else. If the man wants another wife, he can't neglect his previous wife. If he does, he has to set her free, instead of selling her to someone else.
Do that really sound like something a benevolent god would say, or does it sound like something men from a misogynistic society would say?
I don't support killing late term babies for any reason except the health of the mother, incest, or rape, so go argue with your imaginary foe somewhere else. Your own Bible supports abortion, so go argue with your god about it. The topic of this debate is not abortion, so I'm done with you. Bugger off and http://i.imgur.com/sm7bvy1.gif
We already know what the definition of valid medical reason is to you and the Democrat Party.
Their definition is "health of mother" which is code for ALL ABORTIONS FOR ANY REASON AT ANY STAGE!
Is depression a health issue? So tell me if a woman wants an abortion a month from birth, what health reason will she use? She will obviously say she is depressed over the pregnancy.
Can you grasp why the Left refuses to compromise with the GOP on 20 week abortion limits (unless extreme cases)?
THEY ALWAYS USE THE WORDS "HEALTH OF MOTHER" so that all abortions for any reason will be allowed. That is the only wording the extreme radical pro abortion feminist lobby will allow. Democrats are tied hook line and sinker to the abortion lobby!
When you vote for this extreme democrt Party, you are supporting no restriction abortions!
So SPARE ME your ludcirous excuses of how you don't support killing late term babies for any reason.
When you vote for Democrats, YOU ARE SUPPORTING IT! Live with your inhumanity and quit lieing about it! You yourself used the phrasing "health of mother"
Since when did God say abortion was alright?? Show me the verse. They couldn't even do abortions and you still want to make up that lie?? Good job, you fooled all of us!!!
You hypocritical fool. YOU SUPPORT KILLING VIABLE LATE TERM BABIES FOR ANY REASON BY MAKING SURE THAT PEOPLE WHO SHOULDN'T HAVE CHILDREN GET PREGNANT AND YOU HAVE THE NERVE TO PREACH TO OTHERS? YOU PIOUS HYPOCRITE!
You showed me no evidence of your claims from the New Testament Christian faith. All you bigots can do is pick out some verses(most taken out of context) from old Jewish laws and paint Christians the same.
Show me the verses in the new testament speaking to enslavement of women, and them you would actually have some evidence. The New testament teaches Husbands to love their wives as much as Christ loves the Church. There in lies the truth.
I always will speak to abortion because that is the REAL EVIDENCE of what Democrats support today. They don't enslave those unborn viable babies, they KILL THEM!
You hypocrites refuse to ever speak to your own inhumanity while judging others for far less sins.
You were shown old testament scriptural proof of support for women enslavement and you just respond with calling this person a hypocrite and randomly bring abortion into this.
If you don't care about them attacking the old testament scriptures then there is no need to get angry about it and bring up a random political issues of today.
I always will speak to abortion because that is the REAL EVIDENCE of what Democrats support today. They don't enslave those unborn viable babies, they KILL THEM!
There are many laws and support for political issues that I am disappointed with, but I don't randomly bring them up when someone makes a point about something completely different.
You hypocrites refuse to ever speak to your own inhumanity while judging others for far less sins.
If you vote for Democrats or are pro choice, You means you. Pro choice people are the very people on this site who constantly judge Christians or Conservatives for a million reasons, but they are never willing to admit their inhumanity of supporting abortions for any reason.
As the Bible says in the New testament.... take the log out of your own eye before worrying about the speck in someone else's eye. It's saying don't be a hypocrite.
If you vote for Democrats or are pro choice, You means you. Pro choice people are the very people on this site who constantly judge Christians or Conservatives for a million reasons, but they are never willing to admit their inhumanity of supporting abortions for any reason.
As the Bible says in the New testament.... take the log out of your own eye before worrying about the speck in someone else's eye. It's saying don't be a hypocrite.
If you are truly pro life and refuse to vote for Democrats because of it, then I apoligize for jumping to conclusion.
You keep missing the point. People on this site are always judging Christians by saying things like Christians treat women badly etc.
These are pure lies but even if it were true, these people slinging mud towards Christians have absolutely no ground to stand on because they support KILLING even viable unborn babies.
IT'S A JOKE! They support far worse things than anything they claim Christians are doing. This is why I will ALWAYS bring up abortion to show their total hypocrisy. They are the pious ones who constantly judge others.
Let me ask you a question ok?
If there were a debate created by Hilter, or the KKK. or any other evil human being, and they started talking about some people who treat other's badly, what would you think?
Would you happily debate these total evil hypocrites on the particular subject they presented to demean others, or would you say they are hypocrites because they support far worse.
Would you actually waste your time debating their position? It would be a joke to do so and is why I will always show these pro abortion hypocrites what a joke they are when shinng a light on other's supposed flaws.
The other joke is that these same hypocrites always use old testament jewish law to try and paint Christians as enslaving women or some other hogwash lies.
The Christians faith is built around the new testament, not the old testament laws. These hypocrites could never find a Christian church that is teaching enslaving women, but here they are spewing their judgemental lies.
ππ missed that well spotted , wouldn't mind being enslaved by some of them hot Slav ho's πππ bring back slavery ππΌππΌππΌ
Wow π± Just spied the poster of this debate is a mad cow ππ
The Bible is, largely, a book of enslavement with a smattering of common sense weaved in among the lines of viciousness ... which most do not need a book to recognize. It says if you don't wish to follow the slave master you will be punished severely.
The thing is, the slave master didn't write the book, that was written by those who would want to CONTROL the slaves ... especially the ones who could do "nice things for them".
Sorry, I can't use "scriptures" to "prove" anything because the slave masters wrote them also.