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Debate Score:35
Arguments:40
Total Votes:37
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 Downvoting (31)

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pirateelfdog(2655) pic



Downvoting

Ok, so I've been thinking about it recently, and I really think the downvoting feature on this site should be removed. 

We had a discussion about this a while back (here) and I've been thinking about it ever since.

When you downvote, you are commiting the purest form of argument ad hominem. You are discrediting the person's argument without adressing any of their points. This means the argument is not really adressed, but the downvoted is still attempting to weaken the point. This is a clear example of the fallacy. On a debate site in particular, shouldn't we avoid it?

And upvote is fine, because when you agree with something you don't need to say why; you agree because of the reasons already stated in the argument. But if you downvote, there is no way for someone other than you to know for sure why you disagree with the argument made.

So how bout it Andy? Any chance we can get the downvoting feature removed?  

Add New Argument

It is needed to flag extraordinarily moronic arguments. For example when Amiritangshu said that all gay people don't make good couples.

1 point

Does that outweigh the trolls who downvote over nothing?

1 point

Why do you need to downvote to achieve that? Can you not simply say "this is an extraordinarily moronic argument?"

What stops trolls from simply downvoting other's arguments to make them seem as though they are extraordinarily moronic? With the current system, your vote against them and their vote against you have the same affect. If people had to actually write out their complaints, those who had arguments that were flawed would not be able to successfully defend them - like how a debate should work.

1 point

Can you not simply say "this is an extraordinarily moronic argument?"

No, everyone treats you like a leper when you call a moronic argument moronic. As soon as you say something insulting people disregard your argument.

flewk(1193) Disputed
1 point

The site can just implement a "report" button instead of a downvote button.

1 point

No because you get arguments that are abysmal but are not abusive or anything so there's no point in reporting them.

2 points

I believe that you can't have up voting without down voting. I believe it is a key and integral component of the process which moves the better arguments up and the lesser arguments down. If only up voting were allowed, you wouldn't see which arguments people dislike or find offensive, you would only see which arguments people thought were best. I do not plan on removing down voting.

BUT, if there is a habitual down voter, please let me know I and I will deal with them appropriately.

Thanks for the suggestion,

Andy

pirateelfdog(2655) Clarified
1 point

Ok, thank you for responding!

I think a way to maybe meet halfway would be to keep the way upvoting/downvoting affects the order of posts, but show the number of upvotes and the number downvotes. That way, we can at least address the problem of equating upvotes and downvotes.

Or not. The site is perfectly functional, and while I do still stand by my arguments against downvoting, it is by no means vital to alter in my opinion.

addltd(5144) Clarified
2 points

I do understand your concept and while it would likely be a good way of showing the detail, I do not know how difficult it would be to program and more importantly, I do not know if it could be implemented on any previously created debate. Since it would cost me money (which i do not have much of these days) and would take time away from my developer (he doesn't have much time these days), I will have to leave it as it is.

Thank you for your valuable feedback. I do appreciate it!

Andy

2 points

The whole point system needs an overhaul. Besides being ad populum in nature currently every post can get a point whether the contribution is valid or not. Perhaps have the debate only count up votes and down votes instead of every post.

The leader board could be a representation of votes received instead of posts or debates created.

Votes up or down should have a drop down menu or field to populate for the reason for voting. This will help people assess the validity of the score, obviously one could still spam votes either way without any real justification but people could see the votes and assess themselves the validity of the score.

I second this.

1 point

Well you're a fine one to be supporting this notion. It's not at all as if you ever downvote is it?

1 point

Well, that's the problem. People have the ability to downvote, and it's anonymous, so even people who may be strong debtors will end up taking part in bad debating technique. This is partially why the feature needs to be removed.

0 points

I only down vote posts that include obscene name calling. If the post is an actual argument, I do not down vote it without responding to it.

1 point

I agree, i don't use the downvote feature for this reason, i would much rather adress the arguments

1 point

well, downvoting is useful for some situations, particularly since the recent uprising of 11 year olds on the site.

however you are right, i agree with all your points and ultimately removing downvoting would undoubtedly do more good than bad

1 point

Disallowing downvoting is the same as "democracy" in "Democratic" "Peoples" Republics like former DDR or North Korea where the dictator always gets elected by 100% of votes, no matter what.

flewk(1193) Clarified
2 points

Since the algorithm favors arguments with more votes, downvoting actually silences voices.

If we only go by chronology, people will complain that older/newer arguments are favored.

No system is perfect, but we can certainly work towards improving it.

1 point

Not really. On a debate site, the number of votes you have doesn't verify your argument. As such, any counter to your argument is still viable opposition. I'm not in favor of silencing voices, merely making it so that opposition is presented in the way it should be on a debate site

WalterWhite(65) Disputed
1 point

Then it's just about presenting debate on the page, not about expressing dissent. You should avoid throwing the baby out with the bath water.

1 point

I like down-voting very much.

Don't get me wrong, I never do it; it's just others do it and make it easier for my points to become relatively higher compared to their newly-reduced count. :)

Sure, it affects my efficiency percentage but since when did anyone care about that? After all, if I wanted to, I could just use alts to upvote my posts and it would be almost undetectable even to andy if I was using proxies and totally random names.

I could even spam in self-made communities, hidden from public view to get points for them just to down-vote people with.

1 point

The winner of a debate is decided by votes. Logic is not necessary to debates.