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Debate Info

12
15
Infralapsarianism Supralapsarianism(calvinism)
Debate Score:27
Arguments:25
Total Votes:29
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 Infralapsarianism (10)
 
 Supralapsarianism(calvinism) (15)

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Apologetics7(33) pic



Free Will and predestination

Many peoplee debate whether God chooses people based on if they will recieve his son or if God chooses people based on his love of one over the others. The ones God loves are ones that God will predestine some people to Heaven and not others because of his love for them and not others. I believe that God chooses and predestines based on my future decision of recieving him. Infralapsarianism brings a view that God has predestined humans and everything after the fall of sin to reunite us with him. Supralapsarianism has a view that God predestined everything to happen before the fall to show his Mercy. Even so that God had predestined the fall to predestine some to Hell and some to Heaven to show his Mercy. To save some based on his love for some and not others. Calvinist have this belief. If you disagree with the affirmative position I will might personally debate with you. I would like to see the reasons why you disagree with me. There are good reasons to believe that Calvinism is true. But is it? Is it or is it not? If it is -then disagree; if it is not -then agree with the affirmative( Infralapsarianism)

Infralapsarianism

Side Score: 12
VS.

Supralapsarianism(calvinism)

Side Score: 15

i couldnt really follow what you were saying but this is the way i see it:

If god is omniscient (all knowing, as in he knows everything about anything at any time from any perspective) then by default he must pre plan every single thing including every aspect of our lives. It is literally impossible for him not to. If he knows how my life is going to turn out before he even creates me then he has pre planned it, and if he changes his mind on how i should turn out then he also pre planned it, but he wouldnt be able to change his mind in the first place because he wouldve forseen the need to change his mind and just corrected it beforehand. Omniscience is very complicated in this manner.

Now since, hypothetically, he pre plans everyones lives it means we actually have literally no free will whatsoever as everything we will ever experience, even if we think we are making our own choices, are actually pre planned by god.

Even if our lives were not pre planned we still wouldnt have free will because free will by definition is the unrestricted ability to do whatever one wants within the realm of what they are physically able to accomplish. God directly puts tons of restrictions on us via every commandment he makes. But that is a whole other issue.

So the way i see it theres two options, either god is omniscient as he is claimed to be and therfore our lives are all pre planned and we have no free will, or god is not omniscient in which case how is he such a great god? Or you can be like me and take the high road and not believe in a god at all.

Side: Infralapsarianism
Saintnow(3684) Disputed
1 point

God is more than omniscient, He is omnipotent and has the power to focus His attention and be unaware of certain things at certain times if He wishes. He will always have all things knowable, always know all things, while He can always pick and choose things to focus on and things to ignore. God promises He will not hear your prayers in your day of calamity if you have refused to listen to Him before the calamity fell on you....He even says He will laugh at your troubles at that time.

You make your own choices and you are responsible for them. Saying "God, you knew I was going to do that, why did you let me do that?" wont' get you off the hook. Your hook is baited with lies, you have swallowed the hook, and you won't get off by your own efforts or the efforts of your friends who have swallowed the same hook.

Side: Supralapsarianism(calvinism)
AveSatanas(4443) Disputed
2 points

He would have to have foreknowledge of what he's ignoring. He has a plan after all. If he chooses to ignore something then logically he knows about it already. He isn't making himself unaware he's just ignoring things. Like people starving in africa. And that makes him a dick

Side: Infralapsarianism
1 point

Assuming a creator being both loving and almighty, this being must either care about the future well being of ALL the creatures it creates, or only some. Seems obvious that the future can't be predetermined If freewill is truly granted to a creature.

Side: Infralapsarianism
1 point

I'm not sure which side to go on.

There is partial truth in each.

Read my view and let me know my "label"

I believe God is Omniscient and Omnipresent

Its actually simple not complicated.

He knows my choices before I make them, but they are free will choices which I would make or have made regardless.

In other words if I make a choice right now, it's my choice of free will. Whether or not God knew 1st or didn't know my choices 1st is irrelevant to my free will.

God pre-knowing my choices before my choices were made, doesn't change the free will that God gave to us. His foreknowledge doesn't cancel out the free will I used to make the choices.

I don't view His Omniscience of choices and of their out comes as "destiny." God did not cause or destined or purpose my choices. He only knew my choices.

As for the outcomes of our choices, God predestined some outcomes and altered some outcomes, but does not alter all or outcomes.

God alters consequence for 1 - His own will, and 2 - at times for us because of His kindness toward us. But even those interjections of God in time where also foreknown by God.

He also holds back some consequences like He holds back the sea. And that's God's Love and Mercy and His Patience.

If destiny is "predestined" then that would mean God made my choices, making my choices also predetermined as destiny. Then it wouldn't be free will.

God HAS predestined prophesies!

He predestined some events and consequences according to His own free will to accomplish His purposes as foretold in prophesies.

Prophesies are in many cased orchestrated and predestined by God. And Prophesy can also simply be a recorded acct of future events.

Because God is Omniscient, He looked through time and decided where His prophesies accomplished His determined outcomes, throughout all the unfolding of events, down to the smallest fraction of a second.

Any alterations of events through times of prophesy fulfillment were also fully known, all things were foreknown.

Like the Crucifixion.

He chose that time to come, it was the right time, so God did it.

He predestined Judas' betrayal. Not because God made Judas' choice for him, but because he knew.... Judas would be offered 30 pieces of silver and he would agree to betray.

So then God predestined that choice as prophesy, to occur in the day and hour according to His prophesy.

Most prophesy is God's response to every choice ever made and every consequence that ever unfolded, past, present and future.

And He already had complete foreknowledge of all choices and events ever to be made.

Prophesy is His free will. He predestined prophesies at a designated time. And sometimes prophesies of God are simply just foreknowledge of events known from all the known choices and every action and reaction.

Prophesy is destiny.

Foreknown always! And predestined often!

Our choices, and the consequences and the events that follow are used by God.

God acts on His free will using our known choices and consequences. God's acts on our behalf knowing His action beforehand doesn't change God or His intervention.

Whether happy or sad consequences, He uses them all, to fulfill His will in our lives and His prophesies, and for His willed purposes throughout time.

His purposes could be as simple as feeding birds, confirming our faith, disciplining us to obedience, blessing us, and even in judgement. But Him knowing ahead of time doesn't change anything.

Just like not knowing or knowing a movie doesn't change the movie. The movie already happened in its entirety, but the movie is still acting out every act and scene predestined and pre-known by the producer.

The only difference is it isn't entirely scripted because the actors are acting by ad lib choices creating the framework of every scene.

He doesnt change our choices because free will makes choices our own.

This is a clear comparison chart. I'd say

http://www.the-highway.com/compare.html

Side: Infralapsarianism

I don't believe in free will because no one asks to be born.

Side: Supralapsarianism(calvinism)
Saintnow(3684) Disputed
1 point

You had an excuse when you were born, not knowing right from wrong, not understanding guilt and innocence. . Now you are responsible for what you say, think, and do. Saying you have no choice in your actions because you did not choose to be here is self-deceptive.

Side: Infralapsarianism