George W. Bush:
Just A Regular Bad President
Side Score: 88
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The Worst President Ever
Side Score: 90
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6
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I enjoy playing devil's advocate on this website, so I'll through in a couple of arguments that Dubya isn't quite as bad as everyone says. 1) Loss of civil liberties. We often lambast the Patriot Act for it's clear infringement on our civil liberties. Wireless wiretapping, hacking into email servers, intercepting long distance calls -- it is all legal. But is that the real problem? The Patriot Act didn't determine the legitimacy of wiretapping, it simply called Executive Privilege and said it could be done without a warrant. Is it really that much more of an infringement of our rights when the CIA or FBI doesn't have to ask a judge for a warrant? It's always been legal for the government to spy on it's citizens -- the Patriot Act just takes it a step further. Secondly, the treatment of prisoners in Guantanamo Bay and Abu Gharib prisons are really ghastly. The suspension of Habeas Corpus allows trial-less detention of prisoners if they're "suspected combatants". It seems like Bush is the first president to authorize these acts, but in reality two other very highly rated presidents -- Honest Abe and FDR both suspended Habeas Corpus [Civil War, World War II]. The only difference is that due to the media, we see the awful photographs and video clips from the event. Japanese Prison Camps, the destruction of the south, etc. If Lincoln had to deal with a vocal minority during his presidency on the internet and in the media, public opinion of him would be significantly different. 2) The Economy What is Bush supposed to do? There's a lot he could do better, that's for sure, but a number of large corporations have been outsourcing their jobs for a short-term financial gain, and Bush is the one who has to deal with it. The recession is not really the President's fault. 3) The War Just because the reason we got into the war was wrong, it doesn't mean Bush LIED. That's such a common logical fallacy that I see all the time these days. The war had HUGE public support, support of congress, no draft, financial backing, etc. After no WMD's were found, the vast majority of the public still wanted to stay in the conflict. The fatality / wounded rate is SIGNIFICANTLY lower than previous wars, less troops are deployed, it's still only the fourth most expensive war the US has fought -- it's bad, but it's not as bad as everyone thinks. 4) Conclusion / Last Year America is facing a rough time period. Houses are being lost, people are dying overseas, etc. But is this the fault of Bush, or the fault of Congress, the Senate, the public, the CEOs and the managers throughout the country? I don't think picking a scapegoat like Bush is going to help anything. America as an entity has fundamentally changed. While it's easier to shift the blame to the president, because he's the only singular entity in a government of checks and balances, he really doesn't have THAT much power. Certainly not enough power to single-handedly ruin a country. --- Let's look at some of the "best" presidents ever. - Abraham Lincoln "Lied" about the reason he got into the war. Didn't care about freeing the slaves, simply wanted to keep the union together. Suspended civil liberties and habeas corpus to do it. - George Washington Owned more than three hundred slaves. Did not free his slaves in his life time as commonly believed, wrote into his will that they should be released after his and his wife's death. - Franklin Delano Roosevelt Didn't pass any anti-racial abuse legislation. Famously vetoed an anti-lynching bill. Hesitant about getting into WWII, by the time he chose military action, 6,000,000 Jews had been killed. Many in Europe still feel anti-American sentiment because it took us so long to get into WWII. With these examples, I think you see there's a lot of problems even with the "best" president. Oh, and please correct me if I'm wrong on any accounts -- I'd sincerely like to know. --- How about the "real" worst presidents. Buchanan, Harding, Pierce? Their presidencies were littered with REAL scandals that were kept from the public's eye. While thesedays we talk about Gonzales, pardoning Scooter. We still have the ability to find about these issues. Harding, for example, took bribes while choosing his cabinet. I know Wikipedia is not a very valid source, but here's a quote from Harding's presidency. "Upon winning the election, Harding appointed many of his old allies to prominent political positions. Known as the "Ohio Gang" (a term used by Charles Mee, Jr., in his book of the same name), some of the appointees used their new powers to rob the government. It is unclear how much, if anything, Harding himself knew about his friends' illicit activities. The most infamous scandal of the time was the Teapot Dome affair, which shook the nation for years after Harding's death. The scandal involved Secretary of the Interior Albert B. Fall, who was convicted of accepting bribes and illegal no-interest personal loans in exchange for the leasing of public oil fields to business associates. (Absent the bribes and personal loans, the leases themselves were quite legal.) In 1931, Fall became the first member of a Presidential Cabinet to be sent to prison. Thomas W. Miller, head of the Office of Alien Property, was convicted of accepting bribes. Jess Smith, personal aide to the Attorney General, destroyed papers and then committed suicide. Charles Forbes, Director of the Veterans Bureau, skimmed profits, earned large amounts of kickbacks, and directed underground alcohol and drug distribution. He was convicted of fraud and bribery and drew a two-year sentence. Charles Cramer, an aide to Charles Forbes, committed suicide. No evidence to date suggests that Harding personally profited from these crimes, but he was apparently unable to stop them. "I have no trouble with my enemies," Harding told journalist William Allen White late in his presidency, "but my damn friends, they're the ones that keep me walking the floor nights!" Historian Wyn Craig Wade, in his 1987 book The Fiery Cross, suggests that Harding had ties with the Ku Klux Klan, perhaps even having been inducted into the organization in a private White House ceremony. Evidence includes the taped testimony of one of the members of the alleged induction team, however beyond that it is scant at best and the theory is generally discounted." I mean, can you imagine what would happen if Bush did any of this? We get upset about the legality of the Alaskan Oil Fields solely on principle. Harding actually allowed drilling in public fields! After taking bribes! --- A lot of the really terrible things older presidents did goes largely unnoticed. There was no half hour news show every morning and night that updates them on every last shortcoming of the president. Bush is not a good president, in my opinion -- a pretty bad one. However, the flak that he gets for most of his policies is really the status quo. If anything, this topic is more representative of the current mentality of the general public. I guess people want less social conservatism and bigger government, which is fine in my opinion. I just don't think many people will realize Obama has many policies in line with Bush's. If you're talking about the huge government deficit, keep in mind Obama has a $180b/y plan -- the most expensive of any candidate. By the way, out of the current line of candidates, I support Obama. It's not like I have an anti-Obama slant. Side: Just A Regular Bad President
With these examples, I think you see there's a lot of problems even with the "best" president. Oh, and please correct me if I'm wrong on any accounts -- I'd sincerely like to know. Good lord, your conclusions about Washington, Lincoln and FDR are absolutely wrong. I don't even know where to start, so I'll start with Washington. His ownership of slaves has, let's face it, nothing to do with his presidency. In fact, Washington is considered one of the best presidents because he did...little or nothing. He put down a revolution, he held parties, he signed laws. No, Washington will forever be a figure of prominence in American history because he didn't do anything as President. He did exactly what the Constitution required and "got out of Dodge" as soon as possible. His livelihood (in civilian life) was dependent on slaves, as unfortunate as that is. The fact that he freed his slaves at all is unusual for the era. Lincoln's reason for fighting the Civil War was...to protect the Union. Period. He ran on the platform of non-expansion of slavery not it's abolition. He worked completely within the Constitution's measures for times of emergency. What's more, he didn't even start the war as he is sometimes accused, instead he "ignored" (obviously he knew what was going on and was prepared to deal with it) the states succeeding and maintained as much normalcy as was possible. But when push came to shove Lincoln did what was necessary to win the war and it was only when the war was dragging on and the Union wasn't taking ground that the Emancipation Proclamation was issued as a means to hurt the Confederacy. I won't contend with your other accusations against FDR, but I will argue this: FDR wanted to get involved in World War II...quite badly. In fact he's been accused of orchestrating Pearl Harbor by deliberately provoking the Japanese. So why did it take the US so long to get into the war? The American people wanted nothing to do with foreign entanglements. In an age when declarations of war still existed and had meaning, FDR was paralyzed by a Congress that wanted peace, not war. Blaming FDR for the Holocaust is shameful. As for anti-Americanism, I think that it's more of the fact that Europe is no longer the superpower in the world that makes them resentful of the United States; or perhaps the fact that they were saved from themselves not once, but twice by US intervention. Finally, I don't rate Bush as the worst President ever, but I will respond to several of your points. 1) Any expansion of the government's power is a danger. The Constitution limits the power of the government for a reason, when the people give their government an inch, it tends to take a mile. I would be interested to hear how you equivocate torture with suspension of habeas corpus. Holding people indefinitely without charge is radically different from torturing a prisoner of war, because honestly we can't call terrorists anything else and not give them a trial in a civilian court. As for the destruction of the South, it was war and actions were taken to win the war. The detention of the Japanese during World War II may have done many of them service, Americans were outraged at Japan during the war and it's likely that there would have been many violent incidents against Japanese-American citizens, does that excuse that shameful chapter of our history? Absolutely not, but some good may have come of that shameful act. Side: The Worst President Ever
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5 presidents that were worse than Bush. http://www.roguerepublic.net/2008/12/ Side: Just A Regular Bad President
he took away american rights from terrorists... what a bad guy. way worse than what lincoln did when he took away american rights from... um... americans. FDR did the same thing (took away rights from americans). fuck people, he took people who were japanese, german, and italian into camps... fuckin' camps! what does bush do... waterboard people shooting at our troops on the battlefield? zomg, they strap bombs onto children and wish america dead, not a good enough reason to play Deicide in order to keep them awake. yeah, he's not a good president, for one reason, he hasn't been harsh enough. we all know that if Teddy, FDR, or Lincoln were president now, we would be waaaaay more, what the far left consider, "facist". Side: Just A Regular Bad President
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Bush is a bad President. I will give you that. He has done horrible things to our economy, been lazy on immigration, and not been active enough on challenging abortion issues. However, the Dems are taking it out of proportion. He is not the worst ever. What about your own: Jimmy Carter? LBJ? Bill Clinton? Do the Democrats ever challenge members of their own party? Cater calls Obama "Black Boy"
Side: Just A Regular Bad President
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Exactly! Bush was just the wrong man at the wrong time as far as the economic downturn is concerned because he could't have done much more than he tried to do. The senate on the other hand needed to vote to try to pump cash into the economy to get people spending again because at the moment people are seeing prices falling and are waiting for them to fall more to save themselves money but at the expence of the economy and many many failing small businesses. Side: Just A Regular Bad President
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You forgot about the Iraq war, Katrina and a hundred other issues. As far as Carter and Clinton, I'm curious why you think they're nearly as bad as Bush. LBJ on the other hand is interesting. On the one hand he helped push through congress several bills involving civil rights that have helped our country tremendously. At the same time though he did irreparable damage to the country in how he dealt with the Vietnam war. For all the good he did domestically, his foreign policy mistakes arguably mean that he did more harm than good. Bush is actually a lot like LBJ, except that there is no draft, so the war wasn't as big a deal to the public. Also Bush didn't achieve the domestic advancements LBJ did. Side: The Worst President Ever
When George W. Bush passed the tax cuts in 2001 without cutting spending, he did it under the assumption that within the next decade it would increase the debt to $6.3 trillion which would be the same amount relative to future GDP as the debt currently was. Then in 2003 Bush got America to invade Iraq under the assumption that Suddam had WMDs, but he did it for good reason, Suddam Huissane was acting extremely guilty and not allowing the inspection of certain areas of Iraq. In 2009, former members of Suddam's regime admitted they were trying to fool other countries into thinking they had WMDs so that Iran would not invade Iraq, which explains Suddam's seemingly guilty behavior. Of course, consequently, the debt was grown to over $7 trillion. Bush did ride the mortgage bubble, but so did a lot of people, the investment community thought housing was a 'safe investment,' the credit ratings agencies continously predicted rising prices. Liberals never asked if there was a mortgage bubble, they only accussed the market of not distributing enough growth to the middle percentile which happened because innovation created a lot more highly skilled jobs and consequently more upper middle class people. And Clinton set the mortgage bubble in motion when he loosened the restrictions on Fannie and Freddie. The whole deregulation argument againt Bush is bogus, that happened under Reagan, was continued by Clinton, and then was continued by Bush. Of course, after the downturn, Bush passed the stimulus and the bailout. The bailout was understandable, but the stimulus did add $700 billion more in debt to no avail. Side: Just A Regular Bad President
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I think he was a good president who was firm in his decisions but the problem was towards the end of his presidency everyone almost wanted him to fail miserably so people were watching his every move incredibly closely and any slight hiccup he made the media would turn it into a huge scandal! He wasn't the best, no where near, but he wasn't the worst. Side: Just A Regular Bad President
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Actaully Reagans trickle down economic model is a large part of the reaosn the US economy is in such dire straits, sure it may have secured a little prosperity in the short term but you need to look at the long term results. BTW Jimmy Carter had his flaws but in my opinion he was a very good president for a whole host of reasons mostly uneconomical in nature.He recognised what was wrong with america. I respect that man more than many others that have had the post, it just goes to show how insane the US is when a man like him can be labelled an anti-semite for speaking out against the plight of the palestian people. Side: The Worst President Ever
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I’m no presidential historian, but I think George W. Bush will go down as the worst president ever. Here are just some of the reasons why: - Couldn’t actually win the election on his own; had to be appointed by conservative judges. - Sat there, frozen like an idiot reading a book to school children when the secret service told him about the 911 attacks. - Started a war with Iraq - Lied about the reasons for starting a war in Iraq – there was no link to Al Qaeda and no weapons of mass destruction - Opinion: Real reason for starting the war was because his primary backers are oil companies and defence contractors and a war would mean profits for them. - This means he unnecessarily presided over the loss of 4000+ lives of U.S. Soldiers - The intended purpose of the war – to help fight Islamic terrorism – has had the opposite effect and actually strengthened it. - He weirdly and inappropriately massaged German Chancellor Angela Merkel. - His horrible fiscal mismanagement has seen the value of the US dollar drop tremendously as the U.S. trade deficit has increased. - He can`t say anything without somehow bungling it up and sounding like a moron. So what do you think? The crux of this debate depends on if there is a worse president in history. Does anyone know of any? Side: The Worst President Ever
I voted you up because what you write is certainly true. I think he just might be the worst President in history. Andrew Jackson comes to mind because of his genocide of the Native peoples of the United States. What's happened in Iraq is a great human tragedy and I am not prepared to argue with any degree of accuracy that the genocide of the Native peoples outweighs the human tragedy in Iraq. But it is something to consider. Side: Just A Regular Bad President
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Speaking as a historian and sociologist, George W Bush is not likely to be listed as the very worst of the American Presidents. While he will certainly not be remembered as a good one, I think my colleagues and I will be placing him somewhat above worst ever. Assuming that we eliminate Harrison and Garfield from the list entirely (neither were in office long enough to do anything), we are left with the likes of Harding, Grant, Buchanan and Andrew Johnson. Harding was master of a government so steeped in corruption that we actually saw serving members of the Cabinet sent to jail and historians still use it as the litmus test for political wrongdoing. While the Teapot Dome scandal is the most easily recognized, more than 500 separate charges involving corruption, bribery, collusion, kickbacks and the like have been documented to date. Grant was crude, rapacious and not very intelligent, an excellent warfighter but a very poor administrator. His administration was almost as full of corruption as Harding's, but without the malice toward Grant. Grant's mismanagement of the nation during his second term led to the Panic of 1873 (partly defused by the release of gold from federal coffers, but far too late to avert the depression that followed). He also abandoned the southern states to the local militias to combat the violent KKK uprisings, rather than using the military (as Lincoln and Johnson had). In essence, during the last years of Grant's administration, the nation essentially was rudderless and drifting. Johnson presided over the debacle of Reconstruction and made things so bad in Alabama's case that the state was unable to recover financially for more than fifty years (Alabama still owes more than 3.5 billion to the federal government from that period, although no attempt has been made to collect it since 1917). He was also responsible for crushing reparations on several states, the ousting of rich plantation owners, the enactment of "Jim Crow" laws and the passage of the "Black Codes," which condemned freedmen to second-class status. His comment in this aspect was "This is a country for white men, and by God, as long as I am President, it shall be a government for white men." Buchanan was totally incompetent in many ways; in fact, the only reason he won the nomination was because the Democrats needed someone that not everyone hated (he got in on the 17th ballot!). His inaugural address included a promise not to run for office a second time, he was President during the largest government financial collapse in US history prior to the Great Depression and in 1857, he sent the Army into the Utah Territory to crush the rumored "rebellion" of Governor Brigham young and his Mormon followers. The war move was so badly planned that the Army never even made it to Utah (they were winter-bound in Wyoming) and Young managed to defuse the situation prior to fighting actually beginning. Buchanan tried to take credit for "pardoning" the "rebels," not a brilliant idea. He was also President as the first seven states seceded and made no preparations for war. While W has done several stupid things, his administration has been directional (unlike Grant or Buchanan), and his scandals are comparatively quite modest. Furthermore, while the US economy is slumping, it is nowhere near the problems seen in 1851, 1873-4 or 1929. Furthermore, Buchanan's idiocy in the Utah War cost the lives of some 4500 soldiers (mostly to the elements) and accomplished exactly nothing. I may not like Bush, I may not agree with many of his policies, but history says that there are a lot that are worse. Out of the 40 presidents available for ranking (Cleveland gets one ranking although he served two non-consecutive terms, making him both the 22nd and 24th President; Harrison and Garfield are excluded due to time in office), I would probably drop him in the lowest quartile, somewhere around 33rd overall from the top. Side: Not the worst
Say what you will about GWB but all I know is that since the 9/11 attacks there has not been a single terrorist attack on American soil since then. He was a horrible president and should go down for that. The only thing I can see with GWB that is good I stated above. He aslo has killed the US dollar, and piqued our trade deficit. All in all the worst president to date, you cannot really say Nixon since he just got caught. You cannot say Jackson since He is on money. Side: The Worst President Ever
"but I think George W. Bush will go down as the worst president ever" Just because something goes down does not make it true. If you are a media follower than of course you will think that because that is simply what you are told. "Couldn’t actually win the election on his own; had to be appointed by conservative judges." Really!?, because I'm pretty sure he did. If he wasn't elected he would not have been president. "The intended purpose of the war – to help fight Islamic terrorism – has had the opposite effect and actually strengthened it." What would you have done. Would you have said: oh it would only make things worse lets just not go after those terrorists because some of us may die, opposed to a lot more of the Innocent people over there Come on! "He can`t say anything without somehow bungling it up and sounding like a moron." That's kind of funny because I kind of think you sound like a moron. Should I judge you as a person(or whatever you do) based on that, or should I make up lies about you to make you look bad? OR BOTH? Maybe I should treat you like you are treating bush. Should I? FACT: Under his administration you were safe for eight years. what, no thank you? You are a true follower. Side: Not the worst
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The Iraq war is the WORST mistake the USA has ever made. Our national deficit is the WORST it has ever been. Our income discrepency is the WORST in the western world. The terrorist attack that occurred during his watch was the WORST in American history. Many of the branches of the Executive under his control such as FEMA, the EPA, and the FDA are all at their most inefficient and WORST points. Our reputation across the globe is its WORST ever. Not only is Bush the WORST president ever, it is very difficult to name even one aspect of being president that he has done better than any other president. Except maybe tap dancing. Side: The Worst President Ever
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The Iraq war is the WORST mistake the USA has ever made What about the Vietnam and how it was carried out. Our national deficit is the WORST it has ever been. Because Obama has both spent way too much money supressed economy growth with endlessly growing regulations. You really think the lag part of any recession ever lasts 5 years. The lag period of the GREAT DEPRESSION lasted 2 years, and the unemployment rate dropped 3% in those years because REAL JOBS were created. The terrorist attack that occurred during his watch was the WORST in American history. So you are saying we shouldv'e launched pre-emptive war against Osama Bin Laden? Many of the branches of the Executive under his control such as FEMA, the EPA, and the FDA are all at their most inefficient and WORST points. Our reputation across the globe is its WORST ever. Because Obama has let them behave unrestrained. Side: Just A Regular Bad President
Rolling Stone magazine has already done a great job building the case for G.W. Bush as the worst president ever. Check out the supporting evidence link. Side: FAIL
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The ONLY and I mean ONLY reason that George W. Bush has not been impeached is because they tried ti impeach Clinton. That's it. It's that simple. Historically the US only has an impeachment in them every few generations. It just so happens that they wanted to impeach Clinton for lying about a blowjob and Bush may be guilty of WAR CRIMES. Side: The Worst President Ever
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He was already insane, no I take that back Cheney's 3/4s nuts! He was a MORON! He lied about almost everything! Even his election was a lie! One thing he did right though was boycott the Israel Bashaton known as either the first Durban Confrence or Durban 1 or The Durbashiton, or the Israel bashers club! Side: The Worst President Ever
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Not only was he not elected he lied so we could fight for oil,he didn't care about our soliders. For example he gave them bad protection yet the G.O.P treats him like a hero! He started a RESSESTION. The only reason it's not a depression is because of Obama! He exploited 9/11 to go to war. Read the letter of tomas young then you might think he's the worst president ever! Ie tomas young was a solider who wanted to go to Afganistan to fight agenst the masterminds of 9/11 but NO he went to Iraq to fight for oil! There were no weapons of mass destruction. Side: The Worst President Ever
So you try to bring a conspiracy theory to an intellectual debate about Iraq? Actually, Bush really did think Suddam had WMDs, and he thought it because Suddam refused to allow the inspection of parts of Iraq. He did not cause the recession. If the liberal theory is accurate and deregulation caused the recession, well, that happened under Reagan, and then was continued by CLINTON and Bush alike. Side: Just A Regular Bad President
I think he did cause the ressesion and Alright fine Sadclown aka Saddam was acting suspisous! Newsflash he did cause the ressesion but then again Obama's the one who backstabbed our ally, you know the one without any true friends! Israel's the one who has been betrayed I hate that and in reality our worst president was-cheney! Yeah I know he was vice president but he was being a puppet master! Bush was a moron! Side: The Worst President Ever
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