CreateDebate is a social debate community built around ideas, discussion and democracy.
If this is your first time checking out a debate, here are some quick tips to help get you started:
Arguments with the highest score are displayed first.
Argument replies (both in favor and in opposition) are displayed below the original argument.
To follow along, you may find it helpful to show and hide the replies displayed below each argument.
To vote for an argument, use these icons:
You have the power to cast exactly one vote (either up or down) for each argument.
Once you vote, the icon will become grayed out and the argument's score will change.
Yes, you can change your vote.
Debate scores, side scores and tag scores are automatically calculated by an algorithm that primarily takes argument scores into account.
All scores are updated in real-time.
To learn more about the CreateDebate scoring system, check out the FAQ.
When you are ready to voice your opinion, use the Add Argument button to create an argument.
If you would like to address an existing argument, use the Support and Dispute link within that argument to create a new reply.
This is a very nice paragraph by the Greek philosopher Epicurus. It embodies the point that God never stops war or pollution, so how can he be good? I think there is not what people consider a god, but I suppose there could be a devil. The nearest to what a real God could be is Zeus or another Greek, Roman, Egyptian or other God. We cannot believe there is someone like God helping us, since, in truth, there is no-one.
Assuming the point of Epicurus' paragraph is to point out and dispute the various views on God's power and presence, then I must bring up the point that the pot cannot question the potter, who creates and does as he wills, and is always more intelligent, wise, moral, etc. than the created pot. But outside of using the Bible to defend Christianity, which I understand to be looked down upon, third statement not only provides a perfect example of a "non sequitur" argument, but does not touch on the point of the fall of Lucifer (Satan) or the fall of man. God is both willing and able, however evil comes from the Devil and err and sin from us.
God's moral standing. Good or Evil? Well, here's something to think about:
Does God command us to do things that are morally correct because they are morally correct and He is holding us to a Universal code of ethics?
or
Does God command us, and his commands are morally correct because He is an omnipotent, omniscient being?
If the first question is what you believe, then that implies that a Universal code of ethics exists outside of religion, which ultimately means that God's actions must be held to the same standard.
If you believe the second question to be the truth, then you're implying that "might makes right." I'll elaborate.
Imagine that the Christian God is in a room with 100 people. God could easily say "Thou shalt not drink a glass of water, or you shall suffer eternally." Sure, 99 people in that room may not drink a glass of water, but what about the last man? God could certainly kill the individual and sentence them to eternal suffering because that person broke God's command. But the true question still remains... what drinking the glass of water morally wrong? No. It was wrong only because God says so. No one would hold God accountable for His actions.
In philosophy, this is called the Euthyphro Dilemma. It makes it much easier to understand that even if God does exist, he would need to be perfectly, amorally fair. The Bible, however, discounts this by his [wanton] punishment of the human race over and over again.
interesting idea, but you forget that god is perfect and his word is perfect. his word telling us what is right and wrong is perfect. it is an interesting arguement but frankly gods power is irrelivant. he has granted us free will, free will to choose what we do and then as a father told us what he expects of us.
also you were right about 1 thing in your arguement. god isnt fair. god is just. modern day society expects these two to be the same thing but they arent. fair means you treat everyone the same just means you treat the individual the way they deserve. and we are all sinful and we deserve punishment, but god is willing to forgive us if we repent.
it made me laugh though how you put down that he was all powerful and all knowing but forgot vitally that he was all loving.
i am so sinful i do wrong things every day of my life and yet god who is perfect still forgives me.
i dont know what your idea of perfect is but i can tell you this with certainty, my god is so much more
-knew evil acts would occur frequently, made it anyway.
-forces us into existence without any proof to motivate us to do good actions and then judges us and punishes us if we dont act right in the world (ultimate of unfair).
-lets racist, prejudiced, biggoted, drug abusing, sociopathic, child beating(, etc...) people have children.
-lets children be born with diseases that cripple and kill and cause intense pain and suffering, some which increase over their childhood and end in death.
-even if god put evil so there is knowledge of good, he is still half evil and maximally so.
-according to some religions, rapists, child abusers, and murderers can go to heaven if they accept jesus as their savior.
He can stop evil things but will in the future when He comes back in the future for his Second Coming.
-lets children be born with diseases that cripple and kill and cause intense pain and suffering, some which increase over their childhood and end in death.
The reason why there is diseases and suffering is because of sin. If we were perfect then there would be no suffering and death. In heaven if you get there will have no pain and suffering.
-according to some religions, rapists, child abusers, and murderers can go to heaven if they accept jesus as their savior.
In the Bible it says that people who don't believe in God or people who continue to do evil will go to hell. But, you can turn away from sin and still be saved from those things as long as you don't do it again and you ask God for forgivness.
First, the person you are disputing here raised 8 points. You only responded to 3 of them. That is not proper debate etiquette.
He can stop evil things but will in the future when He comes back in the future for his Second Coming.
This still doesn't explain why, if God exists, he didn't prevent the occurrence of evil and suffering in the past.
The reason why there is diseases and suffering is because of sin.
This is an unjustified assertion.
If we were perfect then there would be no suffering and death.
But God didn't create us perfect. In effect, he is condemning us to suffering and death.
In heaven if you get there will have no pain and suffering.
It still doesn't account for the pain and suffering experienced in the past.
In the Bible it says that people who don't believe in God or people who continue to do evil will go to hell.
You are attacking a straw man. What he said was, "according to some religions, rapists, child abusers, and murderers can go to heaven if they accept jesus as their savior." If I were to agree with your statement, you are agreeing that rapists, child abusers, murderers and the like will go to heaven.
ok, firstly you have to understand that god loves us enough that he gave us free will. yes he could have made robot minions who obeyed him but then how could he have a relationship with them
secondly you have to understand the book of genisis to understand the deeply theological questions you are asking. it is not an unjustifide asertion because it says so in the book of genisis.
to your third point i respond by asking you to look up john 3:17 everyone rembers 3:16 but forgets 3:17.
and to your last point, yes they will if they repent. the bible is very clear on this, repent does not mean just to say sorry half heartedly but a more literal translation would be to turn around. to go back the way you came. and my just and perfect god is willing to forgive us if we are truely sorry and turn away from our evil.
There is so much violence in the Bible. if you look at the skeptics annotated bible and take a look at the violence ratios, it is estimated at 25 million, compared to the Devil at 10. This isn't to say I am an atheist or anything else. I just don't believe in the Bible or anything of the sort.
good reasoning, seems pretty simple to me. I dont understand how people cant understand that if there is evil and god created everything, then he is and created evil.
Well no. That's to say that the opposing components of reality, such love and hate, peace and war, fear and courage, cancel each other out. This isn't true. If god were a mathematical concept, He wouldn't be a net value, a figure after the equal symbol- He'd be a harmonious equilibrium. After all, Good and Evil are on separate transactions.
You cannot have a neutral God and it specifically says in the Bible more a hundred times that God is Good. It also says at least once that God is Evil. But I'm not saying I agree with the "God is Good" thing though. If anything he (if a God even exists) is Evil because how can a omnipotent, benevolent sit back and relax when ISIS and other terrorist groups are killing human beings. Or how can he watch children starve to death. Or not wave his magical wand hand and cure Ebola. If he is able to do anything then why hasn't he done something? Heck, why would a perfect God create sinful humans give them a temptation he knows they will give into then punish them with eternal suffering and death?! If you ask me, I don't even think religion should exist anymore. We are far to advanced to believe in sea monsters and witches so why do people still believe that there is a magical being that's gonna kiss all our boo boos for us and tells us to behave so we can go to heaven. But hey don't listen to the crazed eleven year old girl who considers herself a debater. Go down LaLa land road and live life your way. Enjoy.
The Pharaoh of Egypt and his father the previous pharaoh enslaved the people of Israel and were responsible for the deaths of many of the Israelites including many young children.
As the leaders of Egypt their actions have a direct result on their subjects. If they rule wisely, their subject do well. If they rule poorly, the citizens suffer, sometimes even starvation and death, while the leader suffers few ill effects.
In seeking their release from slavery, the Israelite would have been well within their rights to rise up and rebel, freeing themselves by force, and demanding justice and punishment against the behavior of their captors. Instead, God sent Moses to call for Pharaoh to release the Israelites. The Pharaoh refused -- continuously, even after seeing clear demonstrations of both his and his idols' powerless against God's justice. Even with some of his people's pleading for the release of the Israelites, the Pharaoh stuck to his pride and refused to act justly. Even after the 9 plagues, Pharaoh refused. The suffering and death of his subjects is at Pharaoh's feet. God did not have to give any chances to Pharaoh. As it was, the people of Israel were waiting in slavery for almost a year while God patiently endured the resistance of Pharaoh. Nine chances when the Pharaoh deserved none and while God's people continued to suffer and die under the king.
A sign of the last days is that people would blame God for the trouble they brought on themselves. The thief on the cross repented of his deeds, saying to the other thief we are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." ... Do we really deserve any good thing from God. Do other people continue to suffer from our actions while God continues to show us mercy?
I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about the natural disasters that many Christians say are the cause of God's anger. What they fail to notice is that sinners are not the only victims in these disasters. There have been countless articles about innocent people and children who have suffered a most terrible death (eg. blood loss, drowning, infection.) Who ever down voted me- For Shame.
you must know that any believer in Jehovah already knows that he kills innocents by the millions. they accept that he drowns planets laden with millions upon millions of infants. they must accept that he will burn 99% of the ppl ever to walk the earth no matter what their faith or lack thereof. they know their god is evil and they have wholeheartedly accepted clergy and doctrine's ridiculous excuses for divine extortion and divine genocide.
to expect them to stand up for humanity and stand for what's right at the imaginary risk of losing their nonexistent souls is to expect a leopard to change his stripes. they will down-vote ppl all day without ever providing a challenging or compelling argument. because they have convinced themselves that the lack of blind belief in a person is the work and will of Satan. they take the reality of the world, morality, and human existence, and reshape it into an eclectic fantasy where they are the centers of the universe. a universe that is eternally concerned with them.
Well you didn't say that you were talking about that and I don't downvote people without leaving a reason why I did because I am not a punk like some others are that are here. Anyways I don't really downvote anyway I normally skip that feature. Anyways of course the thing that you are calling natural disasters and others call it that but not me it is God's Wrath to show people that He is God. God is all knowing like I said about the children dying and when they die they automatically be with Him. The adults don't want to listen to the signs God send them because God sends everyone a sign don't tell me that He doesn't because if you do you are a big liar in my eyes and God's eyes. So the best way for God to get your attention is to send His wrath upon you. If you die in His wrath and you are saved you have nothing to worry about because you are going to Heaven to be with Him and If you aren't save you will be going to Hell as simple as that. The Bible tell us that the people that were in Hell looked up into Heaven and saw the people up there. In the end times you will be surprise by the people you see in Heaven that you didn't think were save but yet they were.
This quotation's irrationality and madness speaks for itself.
I hope you have a conscious.
children dying and when they die they automatically be with Him
That is such a heartless rationalization. D:
Do you think it isn't really necessary for God to go on torturing them with unbearable physical pain. God seems quite obviously sadistic.
He is like an abusive father, who would go on beating you up harshly and horrendously, but then gives you some candy and then starts smiling, automatically expecting you to forgive him for what he did to you because he thinks that the candy will magically take the anger away.
Please, I hope you can read back on this and realize how insane you sound. Sorry, I'm just a little tired at the moment. But, you have intelligence- you have logic. We all do. I just hope you realize that what you are saying is irrational. And that maybe... just maybe... You might have the wrong God here- if there is one at all.
Honestly, don't expect a reply from that coward. He prefers to live in denial and reject evidence. He has zero respect for debaters on the opposite side of the house from him since he doesn't honour us with a reply.
He prefers to live in denial and rejects evidence.
The reason why he is not replying to you is because He doesn't want to deal with people who constantly has something that to do with the science crap that you say when it isn't true.
He has zero respect for debaters on the opposite side of the house from him since he doesn't honour us with a reply.
Actually he does have respect for debaters and sometimes he doesn't want to argue about God when people like you say foolish nonsense to him about science and talking about how God is evil when He knows God isn't evil.
The reason why he is not replying to you is because He doesn't want to deal with people who constantly has something that to do with the science crap that you say when it isn't true.
Which is exactly why he isn't a good debater. A proper debater gives respect to any other debater who has a proper argument against him/her. And what science crap? I have referred very little to science. You are attacking a straw man. Furthermore, when I do quote science, I provide good evidence to back it up. Seeing as you haven't replied to my criticism of your views on the Big Bang, you're one to talk. By the way, while we're on the topic of science, I am still waiting for you to disprove the Borde-Guth-Vilenkin theory of cosmic inflation ;)
Actually he does have respect for debaters and sometimes he doesn't want to argue about God when people like you say foolish nonsense to him about science and talking about how God is evil when He knows God isn't evil.
If he does have respect for debaters, then he will honour people like Dremorious and myself, who have proper rebuttals written in a respectful manner, with a reply rather than just brushing us off or completely ignoring us.
I have already quoted a paper and posted it in a link when we were last discussing the Big Bang. But just in case you can't find it, here is the original paper written by Arvind Borde, Alan Guth and Alexander Vilenkin.
Then can you reply to the previous argument I writ? Pleeeaassse...
The reason why he is not replying to you is because He doesn't want to deal with people who constantly has something that to do with the science crap that you say when it isn't true.
Science crap? Are you for real?
You are both brazenly denying all logic and reasoning.
when it isn't true.
Have you even read any arguments on the opposing side of this debate? Is your mind filtering all logic and reasoning due to indoctrination from a young age?
Actually he does have respect for debaters and sometimes he doesn't want to argue about God when people like you say foolish nonsense to him about science and talking about how God is evil when He knows God isn't evil.
I agree that he does have respect but the reason he doesn't want to argue is because he couldn't think of anything for a reply. He even sent me a message about it.
You assume by this that death is a bad thing for the innocent. Our lives here are but the blink of an eye compared to the eternity after death, which is blissful for the innocent.
That's an excellent point let me expand on it. Imagine you have just had your first child and named her Thea. She is the love of your life. You would never let any harm come to her and will always be there for her. But then she lies to you. You would obviously forgive her right? A small punishment like a time out or a spanking right? You would do what every normal parent does. But then she steals from you. And then she starts hurting you physically. But you still love her. Any parent would still love there child no matter what. But you could NEVER EVER send your daughter to a place where she would be eternally punished and forgotten. Think about it. That's exactly what your so called benevolent Christian God does on a much larger scale. I, for one, will stick to evolution thank you very much. But hey don't listen to the eleven year old debater; go live in lala land where you belong.
Well, if I were to put it into my words, what I have to say would either sound unoriginal or cliche, or it would not sound very good. That's why I'm going to quote a dead guy.
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
LEVITICUS 20:13, IF A MAN LIES WITH A MAN AS ONE LIES WITH A WOMAN, THEY HAVE DONE WHAT IS DETESTABLE. THEY SHALL BE PUT TO DEATH, THEIR BLOOD IS ON THEIR OWN HEADS.
If God loves us....why did he make us with a free will that would undoubtedly go to evil?
He could have just put in some defense mechanism to prevent us from doing evil.
God allegedly made everything, everyone, and all of our components, so did he also make our evil nature? No theists never admit to this, he didn't make our evil nature he just made our free will that saw fit to do whatever we please. So he made us a conscience, yet the conscience is easy to break.
Think about it this way, you can't eat yourself while it's still attached because your brain is hardwired to not let you. You can't hold your breath until you die, for similar reasons. So if God made these defense mechanisms for us killing ourselves why didn't he make our conscience wall a little stronger?
The answer is simple, either he's evil and wanted us to experience evil so he could judge us, or (and theists hate this one) he's not perfect.
If I shout in a desert on my knees until I'm read in the face, hoarse in the throat, and even for twenty more years after that, I still don't think I'd get an answer.
I feel if he's at least just, that after I die, I will be allowed to ask him one question at least, since I never got to meet him on Earth.
And if that is the case, I will ask him, "Why did I have to have faith?"
It would seem to be true that he/she yes. Although there is still no proof that there is any type of God/Gods if there is then i would have to go with that yes he is evil. He/she is evil in the way that if you had all the power of the known universe and did not stop wars or help then you are not using your powers to the right source. Although god may of made something he or she liked he or she should learn how to look after there "toys" to say...
People believe that he/she will help them if they believe in them but at the end of the say if you do or do not then were are all meant to be gods children.
God is not evil and I will tell you why. He came to earth to live as a Man, and be crucified and come back to life and raise from the dead. He did this so that we might be saved if we change our mind about all of our sins, and accept Him as our Friend, God, Lord, and Savior. Oh, and one final thing: His name is Jesus.
Instead of just posting a link to the other argument you tried to use this strategy on, I took the liberty of copying it so everyone may see how shallow your statement is.
Allow me to outline the argument you just made:
God is Jesus.
God loves us.
Therefore, God must be real.
In case it's not blatantly clear, your statement doesn't make any real sense. Please... this is a place for logical discussion and argument, not for an unsupported statement with no logical connection to anything. Besides, it's as I said in the other post. The rules of argument for any philosophical or scientific (this happens to be both) debate requires the asserting party to provide proof. It does not work like this:
I believe I can travel to the Moon by flying myself there with spirit-power!
And I know it's true because none of you can prove me wrong because you can't see me!
God does not absolutely command us. We are given choices to forge our own destiny. He is ale to but chooses not to. Since our judgement by him will result from our independent actions here on Earth.
I believe God commands us to do what is morally correct. When you look at the commandments (in a generalized sense) you have:
1. Don't worship any other gods (reference my post to the right)
2. Don't worship graven images...ditto as above
3/4. Don't misuse my name and remember the sabbath: he wants a relationship with us.
5.honor your parents: parents by nature should love their children...asking them to do the same is understandable.
6.-10. Don't kill, cheat on your spouse, steal, lie, or covet others property or spouse: the coveting part is typically what leads to stealing, murdering, and adultry.
I think these commandments are a pretty good moral list, espcially Jesus, last command: love one another.
You claim that the 10 Commandments that "God" has allegedly given are morally correct. However, you have failed to justify why each of them should even be considered to be morally correct. And even if they are morally correct, it says completely nothing about whether God is evil or not.
Somebody finally figures out what the point of the debate is (something very rare when it comes to religious-themed debates) and what happens? They get 2 downvotes!
Your conclusion is incorrect. In a discussion about "God's moral standing", an unproven assumption about the existence of God must be included. For the purposes of this debate, I can assume God is not Christian, Muslim, Jew, etc., that all "holy" books were written by human beings recounting history & culture and we have no debatable evidence of the inspiration of their authorship. Whether you acknowledge my notion of what God is not, is irrelevant, just as what you "take on faith" is, likewise, not relevant. In debate, we are required to investigate the evidence for all assumptions we make.
This is not why I said that God is real. I said that God is real because it makes sense to believe in God. Think about it: The Universe did not just happen. Creation is proof of a Creator.
Ummmmmm Big Bang? Ever heard if it? And Btw the universe didn't just happen instantly it evolved over 11 billion years. Can you imagine that amount of time? Just think about it at first it's seems an easy concept but in reality it is quite complex. And no Creation does not mean the is a creator that means there is a method that created the "it" and whether or not it is your non existent God isn't going to be proved with your idiotic paragraph the I am reading right now. How does it make sense to believe in an invisible not very helpful floaty being that we can't prove exists? But you know what? you can go live in lala land with the rest of the creationists etc and I'm gonna go back to reality which your God is helping to fix. You just got schooled bye an eleven year old. Enjoy.
I am a Christian and I don't expect people to listen to me about the goodness of God because the Bible says that some won't listen but if you do listen God bless you. I think God is so good because He sent His one and only son Jesus Christ to die on that cross to make a way for us the believers a way to get to Heaven. I thank God everyday for who He is because to be honest I wouldn't dare send my son to die for this sinful planet. I thank God for who He is because He is perfect in all His ways and is never wrong. When you are a believer you will face things in the world but it is best to follow God and lead not unto your own understanding because God knows what He is doing. I have never saw a person full of the grace of God leave God and I never will. If that happen to anyone then I will have to challenge that person's walk with the Lord. Like I said if you listen to this God Bless you but if you don't God have mercy on you and not going to say may God have mercy on you because I really do care about the souls of all. Moving along I am done here, message me if you want and I will reply if you are willing to listen.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.
You see, that is the heart of the arguement; only an evil god would send his innocent son to die for people who committed no crime. According to Christian doctrine all men have inherited sin from Adam and Eve. It is the height of injustice and evil to condemn people to eternal torture for a crime that someone else committed (which was only the eating of a damn piece of fruit!). This is why Christianity sounds good until you examine under the hood. The god of the Bible is bloodthirsty (he drowns the whole world because "it grieved him that he made man"), and threatens people that if they don't believe in fairytales we will burn in an eternal furnace.
Even the idea that an eternal being would need a son is silly; an immortal creature would have no need for gender which is a method for finite beings to have offspring. Biologically speaking it would make absolutely no sense for an eternal being to have offspring.
The god of the Bible is guilty of the sins that he threatens to punish us with eternal fire for committing; he caused a woman to become pregnant out of wedlock even though the Bible says that a bastard shall not enter into the kingdom of god, and he orders the genocide of whole peoples that would make Hitler and Stalin proud.
If a supreme being does exist it needs a better book to represent it than the Bible, because it is a public relations nightmare for its image.
I would suggest that you pick up a study Bible as well as a few theology courses. Many of the instances where God orders a populace to be killed it is due to worshipping Canaanite/Ammonite gods. Look up Baal and Moloch...you'll see what God had ordered his people to stop. Also when someone tells you God is bad or evil then quotes a Bible passage, dont't read just the passage but the entire book that passage is in so you can understand any historical context which is used.
"I would suggest that you pick up a study Bible as well as a few theology courses. Many of the instances where God orders a populace to be killed it is due to worshipping Canaanite/Ammonite gods."
Be careful, you don't know how much I know about the Bible, and I might have taken a few theological courses, you never know.
Your reasoning is flawed on the instances where the God of the Bible ordered the genocide of the Canaanites and Ammonites. Children are not responsible for their actions, and a just God would not slaughter them because they were taught to worship a false god.
This is the definition of Genocide; gen·o·cide/ˈjenəˌsīd/
Noun:
The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.
Let's see if these Bible verses fit the description;
1 Samuel 15:3: "This is what the Lord Almighty says ... 'Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.' "
Psalm 137 "Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us / He who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."
"...do not leave alive anything that breaths. Completely destroy them...as the Lord your God has commanded you..." Deuteronomy 20:16
I think that you might want to take a few of those theology courses that you recommend for me, along with classes on ethics so you will know what is right and wrong.
"King". The sun god of the Canaanites (Ammonites?) in old Palestine and sometimes associated with the Sumerian Baal, although Moloch (or Molekh) was entirely malevolent. In the 8th-6th century BCE, firstborn children were sacrificed to him by the Israelites in the Valleye of Hinnom, south-east of Jerusalem (see also Gehenna). These sacrifices to the sun god were made to renew the strength of the sun fire. This ritual was probably borrowed from surrounding nations, and was also popular in ancient Carthage.
Moloch was represented as a huge bronze statue with the head of a bull. The statue was hollow, and inside there burned a fire which colored the Moloch a glowing red. Children were placed on the hands of the statue. Through an ingenious system the hands were raised to the mouth (as if Moloch were eating) and the children fell into the fire where they were consumed by the flames. The people gathered before the Moloch were dancing on the sounds of flutes and tambourines to drown out the screams of the victims.
According to some sources, the Moloch in the Old Testament is not a god, but a specific form of sacrifice.
The antiquity of the worship of the god or gods of Baal extends back to the 14th century BCE among the ancient Semitic peoples, the descendants of Shem, the oldest son of Biblical Noah. Semitic is more of a linguistic classification than a racial one. Thus, people speaking the same or similar languages first worshiped Baal in his many forms. The word Baal means "master" or "owner". In ancient religions the name denoted sun, lord or god. Baal was common a name of small Syrian and Persian deities. Baal is still principally thought of as a Canaanite fertility deity. The Great Baal was of Canaan. He was the son of El, the high god of Canaan. The cult of Baal celebrated annually his death and resurrection as a part of the Canaanite fertility rituals. These ceremonies often included human sacrifice and temple prostitution.
Baal, literal meaning is "lord," in the Canaanite pantheon was the local title of fertility gods. Baal never emerged as a rain god until later times when he assumed the special functions of each. Although there is no equivalent in Canaan of the sterile summer drought that occurs in Mesopotamia, the season cycle was marked enough to have caused a concentration on the disappearing fertility god, who took with him the autumn rain clouds into the neither world.
After defeating the sea god Yam, and building a house on Mount Saphon, and taking possession of numerous cities, Baal announced that he would no longer acknowledge the authority of Mot, "death." Baal not only excluded Mot from his hospitality and friendship, but also told him that he could only visit the deserts of the earth. In response to this challenge, Mot invited Baal to his abode to taste his fare, mud. Being terrified and unable to avoid the dreadful summons to the land of the dead, Baal coupled with a calf in order to strengthen himself for the ordeal, and then set out. El and the other gods donned funeral garments, poured ashes on their heads, and mutilated their limbs, while Anat, aided by the sun goddess Shapash, brought the corpse back for burial. El placed Athtar, the irrigation god, on the vacant throne of Baal, but Anat bitterly missed her dead husband. She begged Mot to restore Baal to life, but her pleas went without avail, and Anat's attempts to interest the other gods in helping her were met with cautious indifference. Thus, Anat assaulted Mot, ripping him to pieces "with a sharp knife," scattering his members "with a winnowing fan," burning him "in a fire," grinding him "in a mill," and "over the fields strewing his remains." El, in the meantime, had a dream in which fertility returned, which suggested that Baal was not dead. Afterwards, he instructed Shapash to keep watch for him during her daily travels. In the due course of time Baal was restored, and Athtar fled from his throne. Yet Mot was able to arrange another attack, but on this occasion all of the gods supported Baal, and neither combatant could gain the victory. Finally El intervened and dismissed Mot, leaving Baal in possession of the field.
The above myth, fragments of which are on the Ras Shamra tablets, relates to the alteration of the seasons. Baal is the god of rain, thunder, and lightening. "At the touch of his right hand, even colors wilt." Yam, the owner of salt water, gave place to Baal as the genius of rainfall and vegetation, a displacement that left Mot as sole contender under the mighty El. Torrid heat, sterility, the arid desert, death, the neither world: these were Mot's irresistible realm till Anat threshed, winnowed, and ground the harvested corn, the fecundity of Baal's land, just as the siding of El with the resurrected rain god ensured the continuation of the annual cycle. A parallel of the magical rites can be found in Psalms, where "they that sow in tears shall reap in joy. He that go forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bearing sheaves with him." This is sympathetic magic the tears shed were expected to induce drops of rain.
Baal was the son of El, or Dagon, an obscure deity linked by the Hebrews with the Philistine city of Ashdod. Dagon was perhaps associated with the sea, as a coin found in the vicinity portrays a god having a fish tail. Although Baal personally overcame Yam, it is uncertain whether or not he fought Lotan, the Leviathan of the Old Testament, but it is known that Anat "crushed the writhing serpent, the accused one of the seven heads." Another echo of the Mesopotamian thought patterns are nestled in these reasons advanced by Baal for needing a "house." His food offerings were too meager for a god "that rides on the clouds." As far apart as Carthage and Palmyra were temples dedicated to Baal-Hammon, "the lord of the altar of incense," whom the Greeks identified with Cronos. On Mount Carmel it was the prophet Elijah who discredited King Ahab's belief in the power of Baal, when at his request "the fire of the Lord fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice," and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. Afterwards Elijah had the people slay "the prophets of Baal," thereby assuring the survival of the worship of Yahweh in Israel.
The worship of Baal extended from the Canaanites to the Phoenicians who also were partially an agricultural people. Both Baal and his cohort Ashtoreth, or Astarte, who is equivalent to the Greek goddess Aphrodite, were both Phoenician fertility symbols. Baal, the sun god, was fervently prayed to for the protection of livestock and crops. Priests instructed the people that Baal was responsible for droughts, plagues, and other calamities. People were often worked up into great frenzies at the prospects of displeasing Baal. In times of great turbulence human sacrifices, particularly children, were made to the great god Moloch.
Since the Phoenicians also were superb ship builders the religion and cults of Baal spread throughout the Mediterranean world. The worship of Baal was found among the Moabites and their allies Midinites during Moses' time. It was also introduced to the Israelites.
The religion of the god Baal was widely accepted among the ancient Jews, and although it was put down at times, it was never permanently stamped out. Kings and other royalty of the ten Biblical tribes worshiped the god. The ordinary people ardently worshipped this sun god too because their prosperity depended on the productivity of their crops and livestock. The god's images were erected on many buildings. Within the religion there appeared to be numerous priests and various classes of devotees. During the ceremonies they wore appropriate robes. The ceremonies included burning incense, and offering burnt sacrifices, occasionally consisting of human victims. The officiating priests danced around the altars, chanting frantically and cutting themselves with knives to inspire the attention and compassion of the god.
In the Bible Baal is also called Beelzebub, or Baalzebub, one of the fallen angels of Satan.
Sorry guys, I am messing up the debate. I guess this means that I need to lay my big head down for the night, I have classes tomorrow and here I am messing with all of you. Goodnight all!!
"I would suggest that you pick up a study Bible as well as a few theology courses. Many of the instances where God orders a populace to be killed it is due to worshipping Canaanite/Ammonite gods."
Be careful, you don't know how much I know about the Bible, and I might have taken a few theological courses, you never know.
Your reasoning is flawed on the instances where the God of the Bible ordered the genocide of the Canaanites and Ammonites. Children are not responsible for their actions, and a just God would not slaughter them because they were taught to worship a false god.
This is the definition of Genocide; gen·o·cide/ˈjenəˌsīd/
Noun:
The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.
Let's see if these Bible verses fit the description;
1 Samuel 15:3: "This is what the Lord Almighty says ... 'Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.' "
Psalm 137 "Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us / He who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."
"...do not leave alive anything that breaths. Completely destroy them...as the Lord your God has commanded you..." Deuteronomy 20:16
I think that you might want to take a few of those theology courses that you recommend for me, along with classes on ethics so you will know what is right and wrong.
Many of the instances where God orders a populace to be killed it is due to worshipping Canaanite/Ammonite gods.
In many of these instances god orders the slaying of good, god-fearing christians, as in genesis 22:2. Abraham is commanded to murder his only son, a good christian.
Also, in modern, civilized societies people have freedom of religion. You act as though it makes perfect sense to murder someone for having differing religious beliefs. Is that how you treat others?
You also left out that Jesus resurrected Himself from the grave on the third day. You will no go to Hell for not accepting Jesus into your heart but for not following His commandments and His standards. I will not read nothing else that proofs the existence of God because the Bible is all I need. I want you to think about something to Mecca you are right about we all inherited sin from Adam and Eve but if they didn't eat the fruit there wouldn't be not sin. Basically before Adam and Eve ate that fruit they were in a perfect Heaven with no sin plus they weren't ashamed that they were naked before they ate the fruit. Now this generation want to say I am glad they hate the fruit because we would have been walking around here naked. If they didn't eat the fruit generations later we wouldn't have been ashamed ourselves because that fruit from the Tree of Knowledge wouldn't have affected us. Another thing God hovered over the matrix of Mary and implanted a seed into Her womb so Jesus could be born. There isn't nothing wrong with the Creator using someone for His glory because in the end it would have been perfect. Also the Bastard comment you didn't finished reading the whole chapter in the Bible but the way you used it I don't think you know when you suppose to use it. There are a lot of people that were Christians that died and went to Heaven without an earthly father being in their lives.
You say that Jesus resurrected himself because you read it in a book that was written by forty superstitious people during a time of ignorance. You, a modern man, believe that a donkey can talk, two of every kind of animal was put on a boat (think about that, the lion and the seal made it to a wooden boat, but the vulture didn't eat the worm nor did the leopard eat the lamb in forty days), a tower was built so tall that God became afraid and changed everyones language (nevermind that space probes have reached Mars), and the Sun stood still so men could continue to fight (forget the scientific fact that our star doesn't move). How can you tell little children that a white rabbit doesn't lay chicken eggs, reindeer don't fly, and toys don't get up and play when we leave the room if you believe in fairytales yourself?
Christians who profess to believe in all of the fantastic stories in the Bible do not believe in them in reality. Let me give you an example; If your girlfriend told you that she was pregnant, and it happened after she walked by the local church and the Holy Ghost came upon her, would you believe that?
If you were shot in a drive by shooting and you had the choice of going to your preacher, who is standing a few feet away, or an ambulance, parked right at the curb, which would you choose?
The problem with your religion is that you don't understand that you must produce proof for your claims, not just make wild statements that you expect people to believe. Hitlers minister of propaganda said "the bigger the lie, the more likely it is to be believed."
I believe that God Himself was there with the scribes to write the Bible and that God made sure that they wrote down everything God spoke to them and what vision God showed them. I do believe that every animal can communicate with their own way to animals yet we don't know what they are saying only God knows. The part that you are talking about the animals I don't know where you cooked that up from because that doesn't make any sense to God's word. The only part where you were right is about the forty days but I hope you mean nights as well because it was a full forty days including nights that Noah and His family were on that boat. I believe that God told the animals to get on the boat because the Creator knows all about His creations. Fairy tales are men made up this the Bible was made without any mistakes by the Godly scribes that God was speaking to. The Bible does stand for Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. Why believe in men made fairy tales when in the end you won't get nothing out of them. The girlfriend part I would believe the devil had a part in it sin is in sex when a man and a woman lay together without being married (you said girlfriend so therefore we aren't married) but not really in the baby that is being formed in the inside. I would go to the Hospital and take God with me because the nurses and doctors won't know what happened if I got heal therefore it has to be from God which I know. Like I said I know what the real truth is and here is what the Bible said "Wide is the gates to Hell but narrow is the gates to Heaven.
"The part that you are talking about the animals I don't know where you cooked that up from because that doesn't make any sense to God's word."
You are the first Christian that I have met that does not believe in the Flood story of the Bible.
"Fairy tales are men made up this the Bible was made without any mistakes by the Godly scribes that God was speaking to."
As to the first part of your statement I answer with a "that's what the Bible is, a collection of 66 (or 72 if you are Catholic) books of fairytales written by ignorant men in a superstitous period in history."
Concerning the latter part of your statement I give you just a short list of the thousands of contradictions in the Christian Bible;
How many stalls and horsemen?
1KI 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.
2CH 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.
Now before you say that it was just a mistake of one zero let us remember that the Jews did not know of the number, it was not invented until much later by Muslims; they spelled out their numbers.
Human vs. ghostly impregnation
ACT 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
MAT 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
The sins of the father
ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Rabbits do not chew their cud
LEV 11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
"Gerah," the term which appears in the MT means (chewed) cud, and also perhaps grain, or berry (also a 20th of a sheckel, but I think that we can agree that that is irrelevant here). It does not mean dung, and there is a perfectly adequate Hebrew word for that, which could have been used. Furthermore, the phrase translated "chew the cud" in the KJV is more exactly "bring up the cud." Rabbits do not bring up anything; they let it go all the way through, then eat it again. The description given in Leviticus is inaccurate, and that's that. Rabbits do eat their own dung; they do not bring anything up and chew on it.
Snails do not melt
PSA 58:8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.
Fowl from waters or ground?
GEN 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
GEN 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
Odd genetics
GEN 30:39 And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle ringstraked, speckled, and spotted.
A flat Earth?
MAT 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Astronomical bodies are spherical, and you cannot see the entire exterior surface from anyplace. The kingdoms of Egypt, China, Greece, Crete, sections of Asia Minor, India, Maya (in Mexico), Carthage (North Africa), Rome (Italy), Korea, and other settlements from these kingdoms of the world were widely distributed.
Snakes, while built low, do not eat dirt
GEN 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
The hydrological cycle
ECC 1:7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.
JOB 38:22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
Storehouses are not part of the cycle.
How satisfied with creation was he?
#1: God says "it was good" after each of his labors, and rests on the seventh day, evidently very satisfied.
#2: God has to fix up his creation as he goes, and he would certainly not be very satisfied with the disobedience of that primordial couple. (funny thing that an omniscient god would forget things)
How did Judas die?
ACT 1:18: "Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."
MAT 27:5-7: "And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests...bought with them the potter's field."
Jesus' first sermon plain or mount?
MAT 5:1,2: "And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying...."
LUK 6:17,20: "And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people...came to hear him.. And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples and said..."
Jesus' last words
MAT 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."
LUK 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."
JOH 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."
Years of famine
II SAMUEL 24:13: So God came to David, and told him, and said unto him, shall SEVEN YEARS OF FAMINE come unto thee in thy land? or will thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue. thee?
I CHRONICLES 21:11: SO God came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee. Either THREE YEARS OF FAMINE or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee;
Moved David to anger?
II SAMUEL 24: And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
I CHRONICLES 21: And SATAN stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
The GENEALOGY OF JESUS?
In two places in the New Testament the genealogy of Jesus son of Mary is mentioned. MAT 1:6-16 and LUK 3:23-31. Each gives the ancestors of Joseph the CLAIMED husband of Mary and Step father of Jesus. The first one starts from Abraham(verse 2) all the way down to Jesus. The second one from Jesus all the way back to Adam. The only common name to these two lists between David and Jesus is JOSEPH, How can this be true? and also How can Jesus have a genealogy when all Muslims and most Christians believe that Jesus had/has no father.
God be seen?
EXO 24:9,10; AMO 9:1; GEN 26:2; and JOH 14:9
God CAN be seen:
"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (EXO 33:23)
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (EXO 33:11)
"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (GEN 32:30)
God CANNOT be seen:
"No man hath seen God at any time." (JOH 1:18)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (EXO 33:20)
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1TIM 6:16)
CRUEL, UNMERCIFUL, DESTRUCTIVE, and FEROCIOUS or KIND, MERCIFUL, and GOOD:
"I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (JER 13:14) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."
"The Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy." (JAS 5:11)
"For his mercy endureth forever." (1CH 16:34)
"The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works." (PSA 145:9)
"God is love." (1JO 4:16)
Tempts?
"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham." (GEN 22:1)
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (JAS 1:13)
I could go on but you get the point, the Bible has tons of contradictions.
And finally, "Bible" does not mean Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. To invent the word Bible, scholars borrowed the plural Greek word "biblia" meaning scrolls, or "little books" and created the English word Bible.
I do believe in the flood story but the way you had put down things you are basing them on your own understand which is taking them out of context from the real meaning that they have.
I'm just going to take a few of the arguments, and I'd like you to refute them individually, if you want. (All Mecca's words/Bible quotes in bold)
How many stalls and horsemen?
1KI 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.
2CH 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.
A flat Earth?
MAT 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Astronomical bodies are spherical, and you cannot see the entire exterior surface from anyplace. The kingdoms of Egypt, China, Greece, Crete, sections of Asia Minor, India, Maya (in Mexico), Carthage (North Africa), Rome (Italy), Korea, and other settlements from these kingdoms of the world were widely distributed.
CRUEL, UNMERCIFUL, DESTRUCTIVE, and FEROCIOUS or KIND, MERCIFUL, and GOOD:
"I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (JER 13:14) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."
"The Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy." (JAS 5:11)
"For his mercy endureth forever." (1CH 16:34)
"The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works." (PSA 145:9)
"God is love." (1JO 4:16)
Please accept that the Bible does have contradictions within it. You are obviously intelligent enough to defend Christianity even with that.
Haha there isn't no need to this has been fun but in the end I want be held accountable by God because He knows that I tried to help you but there are people that just can't be helped.
But didn't God create humanity in his eye? In which case, all human evil is from God. I hope God doesn't love me. Because that means he exists. And boy am I gonna look like a twat if God exists...
Whoa, calm down man. I don't mean he actually created us with his eyes, (though that would be pretty damn awesome, firing lasers all over the place) I meant he created us in his image, his style, a recreation of him.
Who is this one man? Because the Bible does state that evil comes from God, on several occasions. The debate is whether God himself is evil, which I also believe. I mean, evil is defined by most as something wicked, despicable, and immoral. God's actions fit the criteria nicely, seeing as if we were doing a chart of who is responsible for the most direct human deaths in history, God is second only to Chairman Mao. And I think we can both agree that Mao was rather evil.
I am calm I am not mad just want to use that symbol. By the one man I mean is Adam. Adam listened to Satan which was the snake because Satan tricked Him into believing eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge would make Him just like God. Adam listened to His flesh and ate the fruit knowing God said not to touch it. That act therefore brought sin into the world which the Bible says. We humans have a sin nature in us and it is our job with God's help to control it.
But God created the garden of Eden, which had within it the Tree of Knowledge. If all evil that humans know stemmed from the tree, surely God created all evil that we know?
Further, if God created everything, did God not create Satan also? Or is Satan another supernatural being that was never created, therefore as powerful as God?
No He didn't It was so peaceful in Heaven until Satan tried to take the throne but when He did that God had to make Hell for others who will not listen to Him in the end because God cannot let people like that into Heaven. God did create Satan. Satan used to be the most beautiful angel in the Heaven like I said Satan choose on His on to do what He did and it truly costed Him. Satan is no where close as power as God. Remember in the Bible Jesus always cast Him out of everyone. Satan was very happy when Jesus died on the cross because He thought Jesus wouldn't come back live but He was wrong. Knowing that that is proof that Satan is not as powerful as God because He didn't know God cause raise Himself from the dead.
I am calm I am not mad just want to use that symbol.
Good, because I don't think I've ever seen you genuinely angry in my brief time on this site.
By the one man I mean is Adam.
OK, I was confused because I thought the Bible said Eve ate it first, then Adam.
That act therefore brought sin into the world which the Bible says.
Whilst that may have brought sin into the world, the Bible says that God is the creator of evil. Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness:I make peace, and I create evil: I the lord do all these things. So you can see that whilst Adam and Eve may have brought evil to Earth, the Bible makes it clear that God is the creator of evil.
We humans have a sin nature in us and it is our job with God's help to control it.
So why did an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God create us with a sinful nature? And why does an omnipotent God need us to help Him control evil?
OK, I was confused because I thought the Bible said Eve ate it first, then Adam.
Adam was created first and it was His fault for not being there by His wife warning her. The Bible says that Men are the spiritual leaders and wife should summit to them.
Whilst that may have brought sin into the world, the Bible says that God is the creator of evil. Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness:I make peace, and I create evil: I the lord do all these things. So you can see that whilst Adam and Eve may have brought evil to Earth, the Bible makes it clear that God is the creator of evil
That means that the people who will follow God and use His name will experience evil Isaiah is prophet that was talking about the coming of Jesus. Jesus also said in Matthew 24:9 and John 16:1-4 that you will be persecuted for my namesake. Which means just because you follow me my name will cause evil things to happen because people won't listen to the true gospel.
So why did an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God create us with a sinful nature? And why does an omnipotent God need us to help Him control evil?
When God became flesh as Jesus because Jesus is God in the flesh and Jesus messages that He taught the crowd of people what discipleship which means make learners that will spread the goodness of what God has done for them.
That means that the people who will follow God and use His name will experience evil Isaiah is prophet that was talking about the coming of Jesus. Jesus also said in Matthew 24:9 and John 16:1-4 that you will be persecuted for my namesake. Which means just because you follow me my name will cause evil things to happen because people won't listen to the true gospel.
So basically, you're saying it's been taken out of context? That's always a shaky thing to do. It just seems very convenient that every quote that is contradictory happens to be out of context. And we know that Adam did not create evil, because that would mean God is not omnipotent. So God must be the creator of evil.
spread the goodness of what God has done for them.
And what of the intense suffering God has brought humanity? As I mentioned earlier, he is second only to Mao in death. He sent lions to destroy his enemies. LIONS! One could argue that the problem of good is an equally valid argument against God. But staying on topic, how would you counter the fact that there have been numerous occasions when God has been responsible for intense suffering? How could such suffering exist, given God's traits?
So basically, you're saying it's been taken out of context? That's always a shaky thing to do. It just seems very convenient that every quote that is contradictory happens to be out of context. And we know that Adam did not create evil, because that would mean God is not omnipotent. So God must be the creator of evil.
And what of the intense suffering God has brought humanity? As I mentioned earlier, he is second only to Mao in death. He sent lions to destroy his enemies. LIONS! One could argue that the problem of good is an equally valid argument against God. But staying on topic, how would you counter the fact that there have been numerous occasions when God has been responsible for intense suffering? How could such suffering exist, given God's traits
This is one of the most difficult questions for Christians to answer. With the help of God I am going to answer it the best I can hopefully you all that don't believe in God understand.
The “problem of pain,” as the well-known Christian scholar, C.S. Lewis, once called it, is atheism’s most potent weapon against the Christian faith.
All true science and history, if rightly understood, support the fact of God. This evidence is so strong that, as the Bible says: “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God” (Psalm 14:1).
Most atheists, therefore, without any objective evidence on which to base their faith in “no God”, must resort finally to philosophical objections. And this problem of suffering is the greatest of these.
That is, they say, how can a God of love permit such things in His world as war, sickness, pain, and death, especially when their effects often are felt most keenly by those who are apparently innocent? Either He is not a God of love and is indifferent to human suffering, or else He is not a God of power and is therefore helpless to do anything about it. In either case, the Biblical God who is supposedly one of both absolute power and perfect love becomes an impossible anachronism. Or so they claim!
This is a real difficulty, but atheism is certainly not the answer, and neither is agnosticism. While there is much evil in the world, there is even more that is good. This is proved by the mere fact that people normally try to hang on to life as long as they can. Furthermore, everyone instinctively recognizes that “good” is a higher order of truth than “bad”.
We need also to recognize that our very minds were created by God. We can only use these minds to the extent that He allows, and it is, therefore, utterly presumptuous for us to use them to question Him and His motives.
“Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?” (Genesis 18:25).
“Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, why hast Thou made me thus?” (Romans 9:20).
We ourselves do not establish the standards of what is right. Only the Creator of all reality can do that. We need to settle it, in our minds and hearts, whether we understand it or not, that whatever God does is, by definition, right.
Having settled this by faith, we are then free to seek for ways in which we can profit spiritually from the sufferings in life, as well as the blessings. As we consider such matters, it is helpful to keep the following great truths continually in our minds.
There is really no such thing as the “innocent” suffering.
Since “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), there is no one who has the right to freedom from God’s wrath on the basis of his own innocence.
As far as babies are concerned, and others who may be incompetent mentally to distinguish right and wrong, it is clear from both Scripture and universal experience that they are sinners by nature and thus will inevitably become sinners by choice as soon as they are able to do so.
The world is now under God’s Curse (Genesis 3:17) because of man’s rebellion against God’s Word.
This “bondage of corruption,” with the “whole world groaning and travailing together in pain” (Romans 8:21-22), is universal, affecting all men and women and children everywhere. God did not create the world this way, and one day will set all things right again. In that day, “God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain” (Revelation 21:4).
The Lord Jesus Christ, who was the only truly “innocent” and “righteous” man in all history, nevertheless has suffered more than anyone else who ever lived.
And this He did for us! “Christ died for our sins” (I Corinthians 15:3). He suffered and died, in order that ultimately He might deliver the world from the Curse, and that, even now, He can deliver from sin and its bondage anyone who will receive Him in faith as personal Lord and Savior. This great deliverance from the penalty of inherent sin, as well as of overt sins, very possibly also assures the salvation of those who have died before reaching an age of conscious choice of wrong over right.
With our full faith in God’s goodness and in Christ’s redemption, we can recognize that our present sufferings can be turned to His glory and our good.
The sufferings of unsaved men are often used by the Holy Spirit to cause them to realize their needs of salvation and to turn to Christ in repentance and faith. The sufferings of Christians should always be the means of developing a stronger dependence on God and a more Christ-like character, if they are properly “exercised thereby” (Hebrews 12:11).
Thus, God is loving and merciful, even when, “for the present,” He allows trials and sufferings to come in our lives.
“For we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to His purpose” (Romans 8:28).
This is one of the most difficult questions for Christians to answer
Thank you very much for admitting this. Too many theists seem to ignore what a challenging problem it is.
All true science and history, if rightly understood, support the fact of God
I have to disagree with this. I'll start with science.
Modern science will never be able to disprove God's existence. So some think that science deserves no place in this question. But I disagree. What science can do, is put a probability on God's existence, which is not particularly high. Because modern science has proven that there is no need for a God. Whilst this doesn't actively dispute the existence of God, it fatally dents many theistic viewpoints. So modern science is not for the idea of a God.
As for history, I must also disagree. There are no objective sources that document Jesus even existing, let alone raising from the dead. Using the Bible is circular logic. And many accounts have been revealed to have been forged. History then, also does not support the idea of God.
Most atheists, therefore, without any objective evidence on which to base their faith in “no God”
Atheists do not have faith. Faith is committing oneself to a belief without need for rational arguments or empirical evidence. Atheists reject the idea of faith, and base their lack of belief on skeptical thinking. If atheists have faith, then people who don't play piano are pianists.
must resort finally to philosophical objections.
Philosophical objections are just as potent as scientific ones. They are not, in any way, a final resort.
That is, they say, how can a God of love permit such things in His world as war, sickness, pain, and death, especially when their effects often are felt most keenly by those who are apparently innocent? Either He is not a God of love and is indifferent to human suffering, or else He is not a God of power and is therefore helpless to do anything about it. In either case, the Biblical God who is supposedly one of both absolute power and perfect love becomes an impossible anachronism. Or so they claim!
Don't miss out his knowledge too. That is, he wants to eliminate suffering, has the power to eliminate suffering, but doesn't know about it. Then he is not omniscient, and doesn't exist.
While there is much evil in the world, there is even more that is good. This is proved by the mere fact that people normally try to hang on to life as long as they can.
No, that is merely our instinct. It's Darwinian, we hold on to life as long as we can to give us more time to pass down genes, among other less important things.
Furthermore, everyone instinctively recognizes that “good” is a higher order of truth than “bad”.
What do you mean by "higher order of truth?" The truth is absolute, our perception is relative.
We need also to recognize that our very minds were created by God
I believe the reverse is true. Our very minds created God, to compensate for the startling nothing after death. After all, death is our most primitive fear.
Also, saying "we" implies that I have to. Alas, I am an atheist, and I will not accept that claim.
We can only use these minds to the extent that He allows, and it is, therefore, utterly presumptuous for us to use them to question Him and His motives.
It's a compelling argument, but I must disagree. That argument only works if you are a theist. But I'm an atheist, I don't believe in God, and I'll question everything about him. I have no fear of the consequences, because I don't believe there are any. His totalitarian mind control cannot be that potent if he can't control atheists mind, (which could be an argument against God on its own, actually) so I reject that claim.
We ourselves do not establish the standards of what is right. Only the Creator of all reality can do that
I completely disagree. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are 17 commandments in the Bible. Only 3 are used in US law today. Morality can be explained by evolution. Doing things that are socially advantageous are passed down to the next generations, onto the next, and so on. Things that are socially disadvantageous are eliminated from society.
We need to settle it, in our minds and hearts, whether we understand it or not, that whatever God does is, by definition, right.
That is an absolutely disgraceful cop-out. Why bother questioning anything if we apparently know the answer?
Having settled this by faith
No. You can't settle skeptical thinking with irrational behaviour that will never be altered. I wish Sam Harris was here to explain why the faith card is not an option in a debate...
There is really no such thing as the “innocent” suffering.
Well I'm sure the Bible says that. But looking objectively for a moment, do you truly believe that everyone deserves what they get? If no-one is truly innocent, why bother with a judicial system? In fact, why bother casting the ten commandments?
freedom from God’s wrath
I thought this was the same guy who loved everyone, and didn't want anyone to go to hell? But then again, love, wrath. Easily confused.
As far as babies are concerned, and others who may be incompetent mentally to distinguish right and wrong, it is clear from both Scripture and universal experience that they are sinners by nature and thus will inevitably become sinners by choice as soon as they are able to do so.
Only someone purely immoral would say that. That someone is God.
The Lord Jesus Christ, who was the only truly “innocent” and “righteous” man in all history, nevertheless has suffered more than anyone else who ever lived.
And this He did for us! “Christ died for our sins” (I Corinthians 15:3). He suffered and died, in order that ultimately He might deliver the world from the Curse, and that, even now, He can deliver from sin and its bondage anyone who will receive Him in faith as personal Lord and Savior. This great deliverance from the penalty of inherent sin, as well as of overt sins, very possibly also assures the salvation of those who have died before reaching an age of conscious choice of wrong over right.
So let me outline God's logic.
1. I don't want to send everyone to hell, but I have to.
2. I am all-powerful, I could just not send them to hell and forgive them.
3. OR, I could become a human, do some magic, get nailed to a cross, go to hell for three days, then come back and go to heaven forever.
4. I'll pick number 3, and then humans will surely love me. I have saved them from the sin they never committed, by killing myself, and coming back to life.
Confused? I am.
I get the impression that you're trying to answer the question using faith, which has no place in a formal debate. Do you have any objective evidence that refutes the problem? If not, then it still stands, and us atheists still have one of our most potent weapons.
Well argued! I was going to rebut it myself, but I think you've pretty much done the Problem of Evil justice. I've recently gave the logical Problem of Evil. Read this and tell me what you think! :) Criticisms would be much appreciated.
Logical Problem of Evil:
1. If the Judeo-Christian God (henceforth referred to as "God"), exists, He is omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent (all-powerful) and wholly/perfectly good.
2. If God exists and is omniscient, He knows about all evil and suffering and knows how to eliminate all evil and suffering.
3. If God exists and is omnipotent, He has the power to eliminate all evil and suffering.
4. If God exists and is wholly/perfectly good, he will want to or have an obligation to eliminate all evil and suffering.
Ergo,
5. The existence of an omniscient, omnipotent and wholly/perfectly good God is logically incompatible with the existence of evil and suffering (from (1) - (4).)
Well thank you for the compliment, although I feel sorry for anyone trying to read everything. As for your problem of evil, I'll assess it as you structured it.
1. Irrefutable. No theist could tapdance their way out of that one.
2. Also irrefutable.
3. See above.
4. Almost bulletproof, though there may be one cheap trick. That would be to that God is obligated to preserve all good, and that the evil we see is the lesser of two evils. He couldn't stop this other evil without sacrificing some good. I'm not sure how you could change it to make it work with that, I'll tell you if I think of anything.
5. Irrefutable, if there is a prior agreement as to what evil and suffering is.
6. Irrefutable, just be wary of the "lesser of two evils" trick. Again, establishing what evil is before a debate is a good way to prevent theists from pulling this one.
7. Conclusion matches the premises, works fine.
There may be one or two issues, which I will outline.
1. Free will defense. God must allow evil to exist, unless he removes our free will, a significantly larger evil than the suffering he allows. Apparently. But this is simply countered. Why didn't God create a world of free creatures without evil? That question will defeat 95% (guessing) of theists, but there may be some who have a counter.
2. God cannot do the logically impossible. Following on from 1, the more educated may argue that God can't do the logically impossible, and this doesn't counter his omnipotence. For example, he couldn't create a world with free will and no evil, as there is no evil without free will. But this is countered by saying that it is possible. Imagine this exact world with one key difference; humans made the right decision every time, through sheer coincidence. This world is logically conceivable, and still forces a theist to answer why God didn't create a world like that one.
3. Adam and Eve existed. I heard this theory a while back, and I've been itching to use it. Basically, your problem of evil states that God and evil cannot co-exist. But if one could find an example of God and evil co-existing, your logical problem of evil is discredited. Remember, evil exists when only when God has moral reason. And the only example of this, is Adam and Eve.
4. Almost bulletproof, though there may be one cheap trick. That would be to that God is obligated to preserve all good, and that the evil we see is the lesser of two evils. He couldn't stop this other evil without sacrificing some good. I'm not sure how you could change it to make it work with that, I'll tell you if I think of anything.
Prof. William L. Rowe from Purdue University has the answer.
Prof. Rowe's evidential Problem of Evil argument:
1. There exist instances of intense suffering which an omnipotent, omniscient being could have prevented without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
2. An omniscient, wholly good being would prevent the occurrence of any intense suffering it could, unless it could not do so without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse
Ergo,
3. There does not exist an omnipotent, omniscient, wholly good being.
If we were to find a way to combine both the logical and evidential Problem of Evil arguments, then the free will defence completely fails and so does the "God cannot do the logically impossible" rebuttal, both of which, I might add, are defences by Prof. Alvin Plantinga.
both of which, I might add, are defences by Prof. Alvin Plantinga.
I knew I'd heard that before. As I was typing, I couldn't remember who formulated those idea.
As for the unification of the two problems, that may puzzle me for my entire life. But, much like general relativity and quantum mechanics, we can hypothesise grand, unifying theories. Who knows, maybe one day I'll read of the unified problem of evil, perhaps by Dr.ReventonRage?
This is one of the most difficult questions for Christians to answer. With the help of God I am going to answer it the best I can hopefully you all that don't believe in God understand.
Glad you see that the Problem of Evil can't be brushed off. Then again, you haven't raised any objections that I haven't seen or read before.
Most atheists, therefore, without any objective evidence on which to base their faith in “no God”, must resort finally to philosophical objections.
First, atheists do not have faith in anything because faith is belief without proper justification. Second, as a philosopher, I am disgusted and infuriated to see that you consider philosophical objections as compared to "objective evidence". You're one to talk since you have neither to support your belief in God. Furthermore, the idea of "objectivity" refers to "mind-independence". If you can give any evidence that is mind-independent, then you might have raised a noteworthy criticism. And finally, religion is a mere subset of philosophy. So any objections that you raise are philosophical ones.
That is, they say, how can a God of love permit such things in His world as war, sickness, pain, and death, especially when their effects often are felt most keenly by those who are apparently innocent? Either He is not a God of love and is indifferent to human suffering, or else He is not a God of power and is therefore helpless to do anything about it. In either case, the Biblical God who is supposedly one of both absolute power and perfect love becomes an impossible anachronism. Or so they claim!
If you think that this is the Problem of Evil, then either you're setting up a straw man argument (and trying to pull the wool over the eyes' of the other debators here) or you're are talking about topics out of your league.
There are two versions of the Problem of Evil argument:
Logical Problem of Evil
1. If the Judeo-Christian God (henceforth referred to as "God") exists, he is omniscient (all-knowing and all-wise), omnipotent (all-powerful) and wholly/perfectly good.
2. If God exists and is omniscient, he knows about all evil and suffering and knows how to eliminate all evil and suffering.
3. If God exists and is omnipotent, he has the power to eliminate all evil and suffering.
4. If God exists and is wholly/perfectly good, he will want to and have an obligation to eliminate all evil and suffering.
Ergo,
5. The existence of an omniscient, omnipotent and wholly/perfectly good God is logically incompatible with the existence of evil and suffering. (i.e. Either God exists and evil and suffering doesn't or vice versa) (From (1)-(4).)
6. Evil and suffering exists.
Ergo,
7. God does not exist. (From (5) and (6).)
Evidential Problem of Evil
1. There exist instances of intense suffering which an omnipotent, omniscient being could have prevented without therby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
2. An omniscient, wholly good being would prevent the occurrence of any intense suffering it could, unless it could not do so without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
Ergo,
3. There does not exist an omnipotent, omniscient, wholly good being.
What are the implications of the Problem of Evil? If Christians want to solve the Problem of Evil, they must deny one of the three characteristics God is said to possess (i.e. omniscience, omnipotence, and perfect goodness). If Christians want to hold that God is good, then they must necessarily assert that God is either not omniscient or not omnipotent. However, the burden of proof is still on the Christian to prove beyond reasonable doubt that this is true.
While there is much evil in the world, there is even more that is good.
You're confusing me now. So what if there is more good in the world? EVIL STILL EXISTS! The premise in the Problem of Evil is not weighing the counts of goodness against the counts of evil and suffering. The Problem of Evil merely asserts that if evil even exists, regardless of whether in large counts or if they are isolated cases, then God cannot exist. Thus, even if everything else in the world is good and there is only one case of evil and/or suffering, then God does not exist! Furthermore, since you agree that there is much evil in the world, you are asserting that the Problem of Evil is valid and sound! If the Problem of Evil is valid and sound, God does not exist!
We need also to recognize that our very minds were created by God. We can only use these minds to the extent that He allows, and it is, therefore, utterly presumptuous for us to use them to question Him and His motives.
You are question begging.
And I won't respond to the Bible quotes because your reasoning is circular in the first place. Even if you were to copy the entire KJV Bible, you will still be reasoning in a circle.
You see, that is the heart of the arguement; only an evil god would send his innocent son to die for people who committed no crime.
It was because of the crimes that God became flesh and died on the cross for our sins. That is why John 3:16 says God so loved the world that so means continuing without an end that He care about our fates died on the cross for us so the curtain would be teared that was blocking us from getting into Heaven.
On the idea of being punished for a sin not committed, the question becomes raised; Does humanity no longer sin? Because we do continue to sin, it is not an uncommitted crime as previously believed. The last sentence of the first paragraph also contradicts itself as he doesn't force us into believing in fairy tales as He does not view them as such. It would be unjust if he forced us to believe something that isn't true, but He only asks us to believe what has already been found true.
Secondly, Jesus' title as God's Son shows his right as being closer tied to God than man or even the angels, not his biological relations to God as God is metaphysical, not biological. Also, again as God is not biological, he did not get someone pregnant out of wedlock. It is the act of adultery that is a sin, not the result.
Your entire argument is question begging. The Bible can't be used as evidence of God's characteristics. This is because the authors of the Bible already made the a prior assumption that God exists. This might seem to be divergent from the question at hand, but if one were to speak about the character of some agent, one must have good evidence to suggest that the agent exists in the first place.
Second, since the Bible is assumed to be written under the direct influence of God, it would be illogical to use the Bible as evidence to assess the character of the author. Clearly, the Bible not only has many inherent contradictions, but is also a biased source of information. Even if there weren't contradictions or if the Bible is not biased, it is still the only source of information that you are using. Even an amateur historian, scientist or philosopher would know that it would be unreliable to merely quote once source of information to draw a conclusion.
And finally, even if I were to accept that an all-powerful creator exists, there is no evidence to suggest that the creator is good given the over-whelming validity of the evidential Problem of Evil.
It is not really an intellectual matter, but a matter of the heart. You rebel at the concept of God because you are not willing to be subject to God.
There are men, including scientists, that can give strong arguments providing evidence, but ultimately God has decreed men shall not find Him through intellectual prowess, but only by a humble acceptance of His last word to Mankind: the cross, and the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The question indeed will be answered in the end time when all stand before God. Some Christians just can't back it up as well as you want it to be. There are questions we ask God but He even hides them from us to at times and usually is answer them at His own time not ours.
It is not really an intellectual matter, but a matter of the heart.
Matters of the heart provide no good arguments for the existence of God.
You rebel at the concept of God because you are not willing to be subject to God.
I do not subject myself to a non-existant entity. Would you subject yourself to Zeus, Thor or Allah?
There are men, including scientists, that can give strong arguments providing evidence, but ultimately God has decreed men shall not find Him through intellectual prowess, but only by a humble acceptance of His last word to Mankind
In the words of the great cosmologist Carl Sagan, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." The existence of God, being both a scientific and philosophical question, cannot be exempted from rigorous intellectual scrutiny. Is that not humble acceptance to you? Furthermore, your idea of "humble acceptance" and "matters of the heart" are mere euphemisms for blind faith, i.e. belief without evidence and/or justification.
Some Christians just can't back it up as well as you want it to be.
If they can't back it up, then their claim that God exists is irrational and, some might argue, delusional. If there is no evidence to believe in something, then one should suspend judgement and not assume the belief to be true.
There are questions we ask God but He even hides them from us to at times and usually is answer them at His own time not ours.
That's because God doesn't exist. Occam's Razor disposes of your claim easily.
If this is a debate about God's characteristics and the only source of information is the Bible, it is relevant to examine it's authorship and validity. Some of the debate participants are preaching contents of the Bible, editorializing, or expressing their religious beliefs, all of which are not germane to the debate. Whether taking the "for" or "against" position, in a debate, all participants are required to put forth reasoning and evidence. Otherwise, this particular "debate" is frivolous. "Faith", I personally believe is an important part of life. However, it's not a useful tool in a debate.
-Clarification- There is evidence that the creator is good you see...
God is not evil...
God is everything that is not evil...
The only reason why this is even a debate is because in so many people's eyes, God is the supposed opposite of evil.
Why? Because, it can be argued that god is good, which is the actual opposite of evil, correct?
So the reason this is debatable is because God exists on the same spectrum as evil. (Stay with me here)
But think about what a spectrum is exactly. Light and dark are on the same spectrum, though darkness is nothing more than the absence of light. Just as hot and cold are on the same spectrum, when cold is nothing more than the absence of heat. If you suppose that God is good then God is on the same spectrum with evil, and if that is assumed then evil is nothing more than the absence of God.
God is not evil...
God is everything that is not evil...
I have two more reasons why god is not evil.
The debaters on the opposing side of this debate argue that god is evil because God created everything, and if God created everything then he created evil as well, ultimately resulting in God being evil himself...Right?...
WRONG!!! And I will explain why.
-Side-note- I could care less whether or not any of you actually believe in God, whether or not you have a belief in him is on you. But what I would like to say is, for you to not believe in him therefore not care about him at all, you all are here debating about him. So whether he may be a positive or negative force in your life, the fact that you're here reading this, shows that he is something to you. Therefor he exists :)
Back to what I was saying...
Suppose that God created everything...
Say it in you own mind...(God created every-THING)
Every...THING!!!
Evil is an adjective...not a THING!!
God is light...and he created everything...so before everything was created, there was nothing but light...
Think of it this way...
Picture a room of nothing but light...if you put a chair in an empty room of nothing but light, the chair would cast a shadow, thus darkness...
God put the chair there...see? The shadow came without God's intentions...
God created everything with good intentions and evil simply followed, and in all honesty, evil hangs on a thread of existence because it depends on the existence of everything god has created.
Without light, there is no darkness...not the other way around..
Without God, there is no evil, but god is not evil. God is everything that is not evil. Just as light is everything that is not dark.
People tend to toy with the idea of light and darkness being equal or opposites, but it is proven that this is not true. A battle between light and dark is over in an instant. Wherever light chooses to be present, darkness must give way. Yet darkness has no power to push back in the other direction. Light shines, Darkness doesn't darken. It can only have a shadowy existence. It is not a positive thing, its simply the lack of a positive thing.
The same holds true for God and evil...
God is not evil...
God is everything that is not evil...
And evil is not a problem, it's just another way of life that we see as something bad when in all honesty it's just a part of nature.
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
The scripture you have just read shows us that there is no darkness in God. If this is so, then why is there darkness and evil. If God is the Most High, then surely he must be responsible for what exists or what he allows.
Ezekiel 28:14-17 (English-NIV)
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings.
Revelation 12:7-9 (English-NIV)
7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.
9 The great dragon was hurled down, that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
John 8:44 (English-NIV)
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Jesus told us that the Devil who is Satan is the Father of Lies and a murderer from the beginning.
So sin started in Satan and he spread his lies and deception and corrupted one third of the Angels. He also deceived man in the beginning which meant that he sowed sin into all of humanity and brought death to us all. We can see in Genesis 3 (English-NIV) that the serpent deceived mankind in the beginning and in Revelation 12:9 we see that Satan is that ancient serpent that lead the whole world astray.
The reason that Jesus came to earth was to redeem man back to God and save us from death birthed by sin. This disobedience originated in the Devil's lies. so satan and man created evil not GOD.
I accidentally posted on the "Yes" side. I am so embarrassed. God is not evil because He is so good to us. He came to earth to die on the cross for our sins and raise from the dead so that we may be saved if we change our mind about all of our sins and accept Him/Jesus as our Friend, God, Lord, and Savior. That is a sweet deal if you ask me.
Why is God scared of shrimp? - And why did he punish those who ever ate shrimp? You've eaten shrimp before haven't you? Even if Jesus the scapegoat came into the picture to make such weird laws no longer apply, it still begs the question- Why did God hate shrimp (Aka his own creation) in the first place? In the bible he calls them things in the ocean that lack the scales that fish usually have, and no fins etc. So that could mean no crustaceans or calamari should be eaten as well. If you have eaten them, you are a sinner. O.o
Excuse me, but God is not afraid of shrimp and He never was. He just wanted the Jews to be set apart from, and to be an example to the other nations by giving things like shrimp up.
You have it wrong God is saying that He will shorten a child's live if that child doesn't respect His/Her parents. God uses words that people think are "evil" but His meaning behind that word by His standards make it different from what we think we know it is. That is why in Proverbs 3:5-6 God's word says Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight. God knows what He is doing. It's best that people follow God even if you don't understand what He is doing. In John 2:19 Jesus told the people that were out to kill Him destroy this temple and in three days it will rise again. The people thought He was talking about the temple Jesus really was talking about His body because when they beat Him badly then nailed Him into the cross. Jesus died then came back alive on the third day. God knows what He is doing in all His ways because in the end it always works out for His glory.
And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Revelation 2:23
What's more evil than killing children to punish their parents?
Look in the mirror and ask yourself why you worship a baby killer. Are you that morally bankrupt?
Also another thing if I was a child I would love God to take my life so I can be in Heaven with Him where there isn't no pain, hunger, thirst or anything bad thing you can think of. You look in a mirror and ask yourself is the things silaswash is saying true maybe there is peace with God if I truly hunger for it.
1 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3 And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne. 4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. 5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits[a] of God. 6 Also in front of the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.
In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:
“‘Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,’[b]
who was, and is, and is to come.”
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:
11 “You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”
I mean don't get me wrong, sitting around with some old men, a cow, an eagle, a lion and a mutant man thing rolling around on the ground praising a baby killer for eternity sounds like a good time, but I'd rather just eat a cheeseburger.
What that part in the Bible means is that one day every tongue will confess that Jesus is God and every living creature including the demons will worship God. I hunger for what you posted and right now I hunger for what all God wants me to do right now. Instead of eating that cheeseburger have a desire to eat the Words of God from the Bible because that is more healthier for you right now then once you do that and become a different living soul I will give you permission to have a cheeseburger as a award with a side of large fries to go with it.
Let me ask you this. Since you read the Bible, you know that sometimes God can't be bothered to murder people himself and commands other people to do the murdering for him; sometimes he commands people to murder their own children. If God told you to murder somebody, would you do it?
That is a very great question but also you have to realize that God command Joshua in the Bible after Moses died to fight in the war. God won't command you to kill someone He understands if you are in a war to fight you are going to have to kill people. So to answer your question I would if I was in a war because I would have to. I wouldn't like it but I have to. God won't command you to flat out kill someone because if you someone commands you to do that it is that of the devil. If He told me to go fight in a war it's common sense that I would have to kill people.
Did you hear the one about God telling Abraham to murder his son?
Read the whole story.
Why then would God give this command? The point was for Abraham to demonstrate that he trusted God completely and placed him above all else, even his own son. Though God of course already knew that Abraham had faith in him, it was necessary for Abraham to prove it through action. "His faith was made complete by what he did" (James 2:21-23). Because of his actions, not only God but Abraham, his family and future generations knew that Abraham trusted God. This trust was important because it indicated that Abraham had the proper relationship with God (he was treating God as God deserves to be treated) and could benefit from God's good plans for his life.
This is a clear display of the immorality of your God and your own for accepting it. A man's son is not his property to do with what he pleases. I don't expect you to understand that though because you don't seem to have a problem with slavery or even beating slaves to death, or men selling their daughters, or stoning them to death for the "crime" of being raped.
I do have a problem with all those things you said men started those things not God if people would choose repent of their wicked ways and follow God a lot of things that are happening on the streets wouldn't exist. That goes for Godly Mothers and Fathers as well if they would have taken better care of their children there wouldn't be a lot of things happening. Abraham son was Abraham's but the true owner was God. God created humans from the dust from the ground and He has authority to use His creations the way He wants. There is always going to be pain in this world unless people turn into the Healer. Adam started sin and when he did it spread over the whole world and now we have to deal with something He did. Even if Adam didn't start sin in the world I honest believe that someone else would. So therefore there was no way to stop now we just have to deal with it and make it into something great with Gods help.
It is according to Gods Word I have nothing to do with it.
morally justifiable that we all suffer for what somebody else did.
To see if you won't follow the same road that person did not by what someone say but by what God said. It is like a test to see if you would die for Jesus not turn your back on Him that is how it's morally justifiable to me.
It was a test to see if Abraham would let anything come into His relationship with the Lord even if it did meant killing His own son. An angel of the Lord stop Abraham from killing His son because the angel and God knew that Abraham wouldn't want to offend God so God tested Him to see if He can prove it. God was pleased with Him.
Even if God do take the lives of parents children to show that He is God the children go to Heaven. God loves His children and will never leave them. I challenge you to watch the movie that just came out called Courageous it will change your way of think about a lot of things. I wish Tyler Perry will watch it to see what a true Christian movie should look like. You should seriously watch it. God knows that children are babies and spiritual babies he wouldn't kill them and send them to Hell because He knows they don't know nothing because they are just babies. It doesn't matter how much science you people share with me I know my Faith and people that don't listen are lost blind walking in the darkness knowing where the true light is but not walking into it. Jesus Christ is my Lord and you just have to deal with it. I love making people mad sharing my faith so keep sending me negative feedback because Gods business is my business and I am going to share like He told me to in Matthew 28:19 in the Bible.
Even if God do take the lives of parents children to show that He is God the children go to Heaven. God loves His children and will never leave them.
This is irrational.
Why would an innocent child have to suffer the pain of being attacked violently to death, and fall victim to God's Anger- after someone else's wrong doing.
God loves His children and will never leave them. I challenge you to watch the movie that just came out called Courageous it will change your way of think about a lot of things. I wish Tyler Perry will watch it to see what a true Christian movie should look like. You should seriously watch it.
Sorry, I have no time for sappy Christian movies. God clearly doesn't love his children if he treats them like this.
God has some serious anger problems- and many innocent people have died from this. He needs help.
I don't think He has no problems everyone that don't believe in Him needs help. God everyday is giving people the opportunity to follow Him but if you don't you have to be punished.
I don't think He has no problems everyone that don't believe in Him needs help. God everyday is giving people the opportunity to follow Him but if you don't you have to be punished.
Are you completely ignoring the fact that he was responsible for the murder of children who became victim to God's anger? And there is more.
Are you completely ignoring the fact that he was responsible for the murder of children who became victim to God's anger? And there is more.
Are you completely ignoring the truth that just because the children died one bad death that they will still get into Heaven to live forever? I have more that can outweigh yours.
Are you completely ignoring the truth that just because the children died one bad death that they will still get into Heaven to live forever? I have more that can outweigh yours.
Ha, and you still don't understand why would God let that child die in the way they did.
Auntiechrist showed a verse from the bible about God ordering someone to murder a child, I questioned why would they murder them just because of someone else's wrong doing. You then replied, trying to justify their deaths by saying "So it could save them from evil in the future." You continue on saying that "God knows what you are going to do in the future, and what you are destined to be."
I reply to that, saying "What about Hitler? If God knows what you will do and who you will become, why didn't God put young Adolf Hitler to death to prevent him from growing up and slaughtering the lives of 11 million innocent people? Wouldn't that be a mistake then, considering your claims?"
You then go on to ignore what was previously said about God's mistake with letting Hitler live and reply with, "God doesn't make mistakes."
A big part why you are so confused is because you are compromising the things of God which is the language of the Devil. Satan is leaping for joy because of you and that God hater AuntieChrist right now but in the end God will always be the one to seal you all fate.
Why would an innocent child have to suffer the pain of being attacked violently to death, and fall victim to God's Anger- after someone else's wrong doing.
I believe that if children are taught the true way to eternal they would love to go to Heaven where there is peace is.
Sorry, I have no time for sappy Christian movies. God clearly doesn't love his children if he treats them like this.
That is very shameful you have time for the other worldly filth but not something that will help you become a MAN.
What has that got to do with God calling for the violent murder of children?
Murder is the unlawful killing of someone. God doesn't break His own laws. He had to destroy the spread of their sinful influence that could have destroyed even more people in future generations if they had been allowed to live.
God knew that if those children grew up they would become adult idolaters and sinners who would eventually die in their sins and go to hell. Instead, He mercifully took them out of that evil future into paradise instead. It's mercy of God because He is all knowing; it's not mercy of humans to do that because they don't have the same knowledge of the future and hearts that God has.
Watching that sappy, materialistic crap only turns you into sobbing heap actually.
I rather watch it and get something great out of it. Today's movie and all are another reason that there is violence in the world.
Correction: He painfully took them out of that savable future.
And I thought God was supposed to be forgiving and loving. Couldn't God at least give the children a chance? Where was his guidance? No matter how much deep trouble they were in, wasn't God supposed to forgive them, guide them and pull them out of the dumps instead of flat out killing them?
There are millions of stories about poor Christians being saved by God.
Here's a question for you: If you had/have children, would it be morally correct to murder them when they are young to prevent them from sinning in the future before they get older- and seal their chance to get to heaven? (which would obviously in turn surrender your chance to get to heaven- but it would be worth the sacrifice to gain assurance for your child's sake.)
Correction: He painfully took them out of that savable future
Correction: It is painful I know but I rather God take the child's life young because God already knows what people are going to turn out to be He knows who will follow Him and who will not. God basically did that child a favor because instead of God letting that child grow old then die and go to Hell and burned for eternal He took that child away fast at a young age so that child wouldn't have to die and go to Hell but instead be with Him forever.
If you had/have children, would it be morally correct to murder them when they are young to prevent them from sinning in the future before they get older- and seal their chance to get to heaven? (which would obviously in turn surrender your chance to get to heaven- but it would be worth the sacrifice to gain assurance for your child's sake.)
Back in those days if God told me to do it I would but in this time no because people wouldn't understand what is happening they would think that it is just plain murder. God knew that things would drastically change as years went by and by. That is why now all we Christians can do is pray and ask God to speak to us about things we don't understand. For some reason it's not responding to the things I want bold and things I don't want bold. You should know what my replies are verse yours anyway.
It is painful I know but I rather God take the child's life young because God already knows what people are going to turn out to be He knows who will follow Him and who will not.
One word: Hitler.
If God knows what people are going to turn out to be- well then, he must of made a huge mistake, an "11 million lives" mistake, in fact.
Don't forget to put Devil by His name because that is what he was.
If God knows what people are going to turn out to be- well then, he must of made a huge mistake, an "11 million lives" mistake, in fact.
God makes no mistakes He is perfect. In the Bible Jesus said that people would be killed because they are following Him. He said to stand strong because in the end that persons live would be eternal live with Him.
Don't forget to put Devil by His name because that is what he was.
That is correct, but not literally.
God makes no mistakes He is perfect. In the Bible Jesus said that people would be killed because they are following Him. He said to stand strong because in the end that persons live would be eternal live with Him.
So it wasn't a mistake when God decided to just let Hitler live and grow up even if he knew what he would become?
So it wasn't a mistake when God decided to let him continue his slaughter to reach 11 million deaths?
So it wasn't a mistake when God decided to just let Hitler live and grow up even if he knew what he would become?
No it wasn't a mistake don't forget Satan has the power also to deceive people God gave Satan permission to go out and make people against Him. God wants people to know the difference between His blessings and Satan's bad curses. Hitler followed the way of the Devil and look where it got Him in the end Hell.
So it wasn't a mistake when God decided to let him continue his slaughter to reach 11 million deaths?
No it wasn't a mistake some of those people went to Heaven because they listened to God's signs the others didn't. I wouldn't care dying for Jesus because in the end I will live with Him forever. Satan has the power to have things happen also that people think are blessing but it's not following Satan will just lead to Hell right along with Him.
No it wasn't a mistake lol Satan was once the most beautiful angel in Heaven then He saw how much power God have so He then got some angels to help Him fight God to take over Heaven but Satan and His angels lost the battle so God threw them out of Heaven then that's when Satan and the angel that help Him fight God because known as demons. Satan was basically jealous of the power God had so He tried to defeat God and have all of the power and Heaven to Himself but that couldn't happened.
So God made Satan for a reason and it wasn't a mistake?
He saw how much power God have so He then got some angels to help Him fight God to take over Heaven but Satan and His angels lost the battle so God threw them out of Heaven
Don't you think this was a mistake?
God created Satan. Satan went evil, tormented people, did horrible stuff, etc. So God made a mistake of making Satan in the first place because none of that would of happened if he didn't make Satan. Simple as that.
You will always be wrong man sad to say but the truth is the truth. God makes no mistakes. Satan made the mistake not God. God gave Satan permission to deceive people to see if they would turn their back on Him but some did and some didn't God bless the ones who didn't get lost.
verb. err - make a mistake - misunderstand - misconceive
"coming here was a mistake"
As quoted from the definition: This example of a mistake fits into the mistake God had committed due to the choices he made.
Firstly, he chose to create Satan.
Secondly, Satan holds jealousy for God's power. This is the part where God feels doubtful whether the choice he made was a right one.
Thirdly, Satan begins to revolt.
Fourthly, God has had enough, and Satan gets kicked out by God.
Lastly, Satan Torments human souls, and God has made the mistake of ever creating him. Is this too hard of a concept to grasp? When you reply to this, please don't bother make up a retort saying the same irrational crap as before, and actually "Quote" this argument.
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
I said that He saved my soul, and then He brought me out of darkness.
God Is Good.
You know that He guides my every foot step.
God Is Good.
Said He guides my every foot step.
God Is Good.
You know that He guides my every foot step, then He saved my soul, and then He brought me out of darkness.
God Is Good.
And then He put shoes on my feet.
God Is Good.
Said He put shoes on my feet.
God is Good
You know He put shoes on my feet.
So He could guide my every footstep.
Jesus saved my soul, and then He brought me out of darkness.
God is Good.
And then He put food on my table.
God Is Good.
Said He put food on my table.
God Is Good.
Said He put food on my table, then He put shoes on my feet, so He could guide my every foot step, Jesus saved my soul, and then He brought me out of darkness.
God Is Good.
And then He made a way.
God Is Good.
Said He made a way.
God Is Good.
I said that He made a way, and then He put food on my table, then He put shoes on my feet, so He could guide my every foot step, Jesus saved my soul, and then He brought me out of darkness.
God Is Good.
And with no money in my pocket.
God is Good.
With no money in my pocket.
God is Good.
With no money in my pocket, He still made a way, Then put food on my table and he put shoes on my feet, So he could guide my every footstep, Jesus saved my soul and then he brought out of darkness.
God is Good.
You know that He healed my every sickness.
God is Good.
Said that He healed my every sickness.
God Is Good.
I said that He healed my every sickness, with no money in my pocket, He still made a way - out of no way. He still made a way - out of no way. He still made a way - out of no way.
And then he put food on my table, and then he put shoes on my feet, so he could guide my every footsteps, Jesus saved my soul, I know that he saved my soul, and he saved my soul, And then he brought me out of darkness.
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
The scripture you have just read shows us that there is no darkness in God. If this is so, then why is there darkness and evil. If God is the Most High, then surely he must be responsible for what exists or what he allows.
Ezekiel 28:14-17 (English-NIV)
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings.
Revelation 12:7-9 (English-NIV)
7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.
9 The great dragon was hurled down, that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
John 8:44 (English-NIV)
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Jesus told us that the Devil who is Satan is the Father of Lies and a murderer from the beginning.
So sin started in Satan and he spread his lies and deception and corrupted one third of the Angels. He also deceived man in the beginning which meant that he sowed sin into all of humanity and brought death to us all. We can see in Genesis 3 (English-NIV) that the serpent deceived mankind in the beginning and in Revelation 12:9 we see that Satan is that ancient serpent that lead the whole world astray.
The reason that Jesus came to earth was to redeem man back to God and save us from death birthed by sin. This disobedience originated in the Devil's lies. so satan and man created evil not GOD.
Silaswash, the lyrics of "God is Good" expressed beautiful sentiments. However, expressing praise for the God you know is not relevant to this debate. Preaching your beliefs, I respect, but your beliefs, without verifiable evidence, are a waste of time. And pointing to one's beliefs as proof for one's beliefs is invalid. From reading your all of your posts, it is clear what you believe in, but typing long pieces of texts, which I've read, wastes my time and the time of others who are serious about applying some intellectual integrity to the topic of this debate. Please try to be respectful of this forum. (And using the tool before submitting any future comments would help).
I would not say that God is evil (if one exists, because if he doesn't then he cannot have a moral leaning), but mans concept of God certainly is, according to how he acts in some of the so called revealed holy books.
I dont think we can say god is anything. God created good too and so he is good? If god is good and evil that makes him normal. No one is evil and no one is good. We all have a bit of both in us. And god would too, he would be evil when he has to be and with who he has to be and good with those and when he has to be. We can't label god.
God is evil It is winning position It made me think that God created us-Evil created us and let us live. I am Muslim and I believe in God. However God is neither good nor evil. He is justice. He is the one who recognizes evil and good, then decides should good be awarded, and evil be punished or should they exist or not. He created good and evil himself, so how can God be evil or good? He is higher than these notions.
This is a difficult question for most and I can understand why. However, as a Christian, I will try not to establish a biased view.
It is believed by many Christians that if someone is not saved by the lord Jesus Christ, that they will be sent to live forever in the burning depths of Hell. Is this evil? If someone had been raised as a child of the Islamic religion and had been surrounded by family and friends of the same faith, how can God punish them for something they cannot control? How can he send them to burn for eternal life when they had been born into another faith? They are NOT simply going to perform a conversion at the sight of a Christian preacher! How can he punish them?!
Or...
Why would God bring suffering upon a race of people as in genocides in Sudan and earlier in the Holocaust? Why would he kill innocent souls that he created himself? God controls everything... and it says so in the bible. Why, then, would he send innocent souls, born into another faith or killed by the strength of racist fools, to be tortured perpetually in Hell?!
My answer is this... sin. Sin is the basis for all evil that exists on Earth. It is the foundation of the racism that had been found within the hearts of Nazi followers; the seed of contradicting faiths; the embodiment of greed and selfishness. Sin is evil.
BUT, if God can do anything... Why hasn't he? Why would his plans allow genocide, tragedy, and sufferance?
The answer to this question is I don't know. However, I love God, I believe in him, and I trust that some day he will provide me with answers.
If you have answers of your own, please feel free to express them.
Gratuitous refers to "Done, made, adopted, or assumed without any good ground or reason; not required or warranted by the circumstances of the case; uncalled-for; unjustifiable."
People people God did not come down to earth and die, Jesus did the text are pretty clear on this God is not Jesus. God = Jehova, which = God. Jesus = Jesus, which = son of Marry which = extraterristrial human life manipulation which = work of God. Hwich leads me to a new debate.
There are many deities to believe to exist, with many different characteristics. Not only would you have to describe which deity you are talking about to assess the question of evil, you also have to prove a deity exists and that specific deity is the existing one. Once that is done, we can properly analyze whether a god factually is or isn't something.
If however, as I'm going to assume, this is about the Bible-descriptive god, then I would have to conclude that the deity is probably evil or the Bible is not completely accurate.
But for the general question, the answer is no because of what I said in the first paragraph.
This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever read but then again, this is typical of a non-believer. Don't dare come at me and say I am being self righteous either, for that is typical as well. There is no argument about if God is evil or not. Statements such as the are of the enemy and serve only to distract a true believer of Jesus Christ, the Almighty. That's all that satan can do, is distract. You see, God won this battle on the cross. satan will endure all the evil he inflicted as will his followers. Those who don't love God will find out what evil really is.
This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever read but then again, this is typical of a non-believer
Really? I thought worshiping an infanticidal, misogynistic, homophobic, genocidal, bat shit insane deity that is scared of shrimps was more ridiculous.
Don't dare come at me and say I am being self righteous either
You're being self-righteous. :)
There is no argument about if God is evil or not
Seeing as the winning position is "yes", I'm fairly sure that there is an argument.
God won this battle on the cross.
A true God wouldn't need to battle.
Those who don't love God will find out what evil really is.
We won't find out in hell. I mean, there's no God there. How else do we know what evil is?
I find it hilarious that you think a crazy fucker that allows innocent children to be brutally burned and tortured for eternity is not evil because he stores up true evil for the non believers.
Really? I thought worshiping an infanticidal, misogynistic, homophobic, genocidal, bat shit insane deity that is scared of shrimps was more ridiculous.
Really? Do you not understand the difference between the Old and New Testament? I see you are resorting to being typical of other atheists, the defense argument always contains the same words. You atheists have such a weak argument that you have a hint sheet you have to go by for your argument.
You're being self-righteous. :)
Okay, my reverse psychology worked on you. Yes, we need more self righteousness in this world. As a Christian, I am called to judge in righteousness.
Seeing as the winning position is "yes", I'm fairly sure that there is an argument.
You see, this is typical atheist belief right here. Christians are already aware that people live "of the world" and that satan is the ruler of the air. So therefore, satan is happy with the atheists being right where they are, on his side. satan has an ax to grind with a believer. God even said in the Holy Bible that this is how it would be in the last days, and you atheists prove it just that much more by how you are "of the world."
A true God wouldn't need to battle.
We were created with a free will just as you are showing you have. Because of ignorance, God will battle for you to pull you out of the wilderness.
And please, not the same old statement about God allowing innocent children to be brutally burned. It's a shame that you still haven't opened your eyes. If you do some Bible study, you will get a better understanding of the why's.
Really? Do you not understand the difference between the Old and New Testament? I see you are resorting to being typical of other atheists, the defense argument always contains the same words. You atheists have such a weak argument that you have a hint sheet you have to go by for your argument.
And an argument being typical does not falsify it.
Okay, my reverse psychology worked on you. Yes, we need more self righteousness in this world. As a Christian, I am called to judge in righteousness.
I'm glad you see the pressing issue of a lack of self righteousness.
You see, this is typical atheist belief right here. Christians are already aware that people live "of the world" and that satan is the ruler of the air. So therefore, satan is happy with the atheists being right where they are, on his side. satan has an ax to grind with a believer. God even said in the Holy Bible that this is how it would be in the last days, and you atheists prove it just that much more by how you are "of the world.
So allow me to explain. Christians are content with having an Orwellian, totalitarian Big Brother watching them and stifling their knowledge. While Satan encourages skepticism, rationality and orgies. Yeah, you're really making a convincing case for Christianity.
We were created with a free will just as you are showing you have. Because of ignorance, God will battle for you to pull you out of the wilderness.
Except... an omniscient God is incompatible with free will.
So, you are left with two possible outcomes. Either:
1. God does give us free will, but he is indifferent to evil. But this contradicts his omnibenevolence.
2. God does not give us free will. This makes the problem of evil proof that the Christian God does not exist.
And please, not the same old statement about God allowing innocent children to be brutally burned. It's a shame that you still haven't opened your eyes. If you do some Bible study, you will get a better understanding of the why's.
Be careful, you know not of my Biblical knowledge. What is your reason for God allowing innocent children to die?
who in their right mind would say a thing. some people say that he is a sadist and corrupt for sending people, he loves, to hell. but that is simply not true...God wants all of us in heaven.. But he is kind enough to give us a choice wether or not we want to be with him. If you choose to disobey god and deny his existence, then you are choosing your own fate.. In the end its your choice if you want to be with him. God loves us. All you have to do is believe that he is just, and that he gave us his one and only son, that jesus christ died for our sins. a horrible death on the cross.
I have learnt something, i never realized how many atheist there are in the world, this is scary... im praying that there are decent, good people in the non-believers. but also worried they could be the devils children, slowing destroying, people beliefs.putting their poison in the works..every day good verses against evil. then science proofs things about us.. that can confuse people, with their religion intact..
i ment yes szzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
God has love and compassion for all living things. He gives people a choice in life, they can be good to people and go to heaven or they can be evil and go to hell.
God creates miracles. God and Jesus can save peoples souls and send them to heaven. Our Almighty God is full of love, forgiveness, and is a 100% merciful God.
God is not evil. And what is evil? And if you want god to stop evil, do you want him to stoff everything or just a little bit. Where should it stop? The murder level, the lying level or the thinking level? What about our evil thoughts?
The bad which happens in our lives is just the negative aspect of god acting, i..e the devil. It's the devil and the god which keeps things in balance, which provides the right mixture of good and bad.
no because he wants you to do stuff for yourself like if you're a parent you can't do stuff for them all the time our this world is so fuked up that god doesn't want anything to do with it
God is good and merciful. Lucifer is evil, which is why he was cast from Heaven. For all those who are using the "Adam and Eve" example, God gave us all free-will to do as we wish. Lucifer tempted them to eat the apple, thus began sin.
