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Debate Info

22
39
True False
Debate Score:61
Arguments:41
Total Votes:69
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Argument Ratio

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 True (14)
 
 False (26)

Debate Creator

Lynaldea(1231) pic



"God" cannot exist because "bad and horrible things" exist.

True

Side Score: 22
VS.

False

Side Score: 39
1 point

i think it does pose a bit of a problem, or at least you have to change what you believe "god" is. the problem being god is the creator of everything, this includes evil, god then created evil. If god created evil he cannot be benevolent, or he is not omniscient, or he is not omnipotent, he cant be all three, while evil exist, without becoming a contradiction

Side: True
1 point

Yes, I've heard and read this many times. He can't be "all three if evil exists".

I've always thought this was interesting, as far as the "logical fallacy" comes into play.

That if God was all loving. If God was all knowing. If God was all everywhere. and If God only was good. And SINCE there is evil in this world, herego god is not existent.

My question is.

What if god is all that AND it allows evil to happen? Where is the "logic" in disputing this?

Side: True
0 points

Seems legit.

Side: True
The Phantom(453) Clarified
1 point

Why. .

Side: True
ant981228 Disputed
1 point

Don't presume to know the true intent of the lord! Stuff happens, but fate is inherently guiding you towards the optimal betterment of yourself.

Side: False
Lynaldea(1231) Disputed
1 point

Cuaroc, what seems legit?

Please do explain.

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Side: False
4 points

God cannt exist because bad and horrible things exist? Let's put it this way....we have it in the wrong order..first there was God...everything was perfect...after God...then there was evil.and also...we would never know what evil or horror is without knowing what good is...or God.....why do good things and people still exist...it had to be something that started the cycle...and we can't blame God for our sins...we dug our own holes with that one thanks.

Side: False
1 point

Yeah, people created evil works. Maybe there was a serpent and stuff that was created by God, but man made use of that, hence, we made evil work.

Side: False
1 point

yeah that is right we committed our own sins not god so you can't blame him for everything.

Side: False
1 point

As much as I believe with most of what you're saying.

I have to say that when you said "we dug our own holes with that one thanks"... I wholeheartedly agree that humans did not dig our own holes. Humans were put into this world like throwing a baby out in the desert, or a place with no light in it and was told "go and be human"...

Humans didn't choose to be here. Humans didn't choose to "fuck things up", in my opinion. Humans were put into an impossible situation with crazy circumstances and "life and god" chose us to be both good and evil, allowing us to choose whether or not to believe in him, or to be good or evil via our choices we make.

However, god is not to blame for all of the evil in the world, that ultimately comes down to humans making choices.

Finally, don't let that become too blurry.

The fact that humans did not choose to be here.

The fact that humans do choose whether to commit an evil crime or not.

The fact that if god exists, he put us into an exciting and horrible situation and circumstances all in one; allowing everything to take place and "see what happens".

Side: False
1 point

I'm going to assume you are referring to the Christian god, who is typically thought to be omnipotent, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent. If not, please let me know.

"first there was God...everything was perfect...after God...then there was evil."

And who created the imperfect things that were capable of doing evil, knowing full well that they would? Why would he create flawed creations? Is he not capable of creating perfect ones? When you create things, do you make them flawed even if you are perfectly capable of making them flawless? When you cook dinner do you intentionally throw some spices in there that ruin the flavor of the meal, or do you make it taste as good as you possibly can? When building a house would you intentionally make holes in the walls and not seal the plumbing properly? I just can't fathom how an all powerful, all knowing god would create flawed things. Things he thought were so flawed that he drown most of them and will be sending millions more to hell.

"we would never know what evil or horror is without knowing what good is"

Is god not capable of simply giving us this knowledge? If he is all-powerful and capable of creating an entire universe, surely he can give us this knowledge without horrible atrocities happening. If he can't, then he is not omnipotent. If he is capable of giving us that knowledge, but chooses to let the atrocities happen anyway, then he is not omnibenevolent.

"we can't blame God for our sins...we dug our own holes with that one thanks."

According to most Christian doctrine, god can see into the future. If this is the case, then he knows before he creates each person whether they will end up being a loving charitable person or a horrific murderous pedophile. If he chooses to create the murderous pedophile, is he not partially responsible for the atrocities that happen to the victims of this person? If a prison guard were to willingly let a pedophile escape, knowing with absolute certainty that the pedophile would molest other children, wouldn't you think that it was wrong of the guard and hold him partially responsible for the crimes committed by the pedophile? How is that any different from god creating the pedophile knowing in advance the horrible things that would happen? How could an omnibenevolent god do such a thing?

Side: True
3 points

Psalm 107:

1 Oh give thanks to the Lord, for he is good,

for his steadfast love endures forever!

2 Let the redeemed of the Lord say so,

whom he has redeemed from trouble[a]

3 and gathered in from the lands,

from the east and from the west,

from the north and from the south.

4 Some wandered in desert wastes,

finding no way to a city to dwell in;

5 hungry and thirsty,

their soul fainted within them.

6 Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble,

and he delivered them from their distress.

7 He led them by a straight way

till they reached a city to dwell in.

8 Let them thank the Lord for his steadfast love,

for his wondrous works to the children of man!

9 For he satisfies the longing soul,

and the hungry soul he fills with good things.

10 Some sat in darkness and in the shadow of death,

prisoners in affliction and in irons,

11 for they had rebelled against the words of God,

and spurned the counsel of the Most High.

12 So he bowed their hearts down with hard labor;

they fell down, with none to help.

13 Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble,

and he delivered them from their distress.

14 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death,

and burst their bonds apart.

15 Let them thank the Lord for his steadfast love,

for his wondrous works to the children of man!

16 For he shatters the doors of bronze

and cuts in two the bars of iron.

17 Some were fools through their sinful ways,

and because of their iniquities suffered affliction;

18 they loathed any kind of food,

and they drew near to the gates of death.

19 Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble,

and he delivered them from their distress.

20 He sent out his word and healed them,

and delivered them from their destruction.

21 Let them thank the Lord for his steadfast love,

for his wondrous works to the children of man!

22 And let them offer sacrifices of thanksgiving,

and tell of his deeds in songs of joy!

23 Some went down to the sea in ships,

doing business on the great waters;

24 they saw the deeds of the Lord,

his wondrous works in the deep.

25 For he commanded and raised the stormy wind,

which lifted up the waves of the sea.

26 They mounted up to heaven; they went down to the depths;

their courage melted away in their evil plight;

27 they reeled and staggered like drunken men

and were at their wits' end.[b]

28 Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble,

and he delivered them from their distress.

29 He made the storm be still,

and the waves of the sea were hushed.

30 Then they were glad that the waters[c] were quiet,

and he brought them to their desired haven.

31 Let them thank the Lord for his steadfast love,

for his wondrous works to the children of man!

32 Let them extol him in the congregation of the people,

and praise him in the assembly of the elders.

33 He turns rivers into a desert,

springs of water into thirsty ground,

34 a fruitful land into a salty waste,

because of the evil of its inhabitants.

35 He turns a desert into pools of water,

a parched land into springs of water.

36 And there he lets the hungry dwell,

and they establish a city to live in;

37 they sow fields and plant vineyards

and get a fruitful yield.

38 By his blessing they multiply greatly,

and he does not let their livestock diminish.

39 When they are diminished and brought low

through oppression, evil, and sorrow,

40 he pours contempt on princes

and makes them wander in trackless wastes;

41 but he raises up the needy out of affliction

and makes their families like flocks.

42 The upright see it and are glad,

and all wickedness shuts its mouth.

43 Whoever is wise, let him attend to these things;

let them consider the steadfast love of the Lord.

Side: False
Cuaroc(8829) Disputed
1 point

Nice CP argument.

Side: True
2 points

It's not a reason he doesnt exist. It's a reason why he's a hypocrite

Side: False
3 points

So God can exist and his reasoning is what separates the people?

Side: False
2 points

What can our natural minds understand compared to supernatural being

Side: False
AveSatanas(4443) Disputed
1 point

What? i dont get that at all. All i was saying is, is that should god exist then he's a hypocrite for teaching to love and not judge then damning people to hell, demanding sacrifices, ect ect.

Side: True
cakemallow25(79) Disputed
0 points

GOD HAS THE RIGHT TO BE A HYPOCRITE - HE IS GOD! HE TELLS US WHAT'S OUR JOB AND WHAT'S HIS; SOMETIMES BEING A HYPOCRITE ISA GOOD THING!

Oh, and you're a hypocrite for saying he's a hypocrite.

Just saying...

Side: True
AveSatanas(4443) Disputed
2 points

Troll ?

Side: False
ant981228 Disputed
1 point

What right have you to label god as a hypocrite? What does that second sentence have to do with anything?

Side: False
2 points

Isn't "bad and horrible things" extremely subjective?

If it were all candy canes and lollipops, I'm sure someone would say, "Oh, but that's bad! I'm sick of sweets! Ergo, there's no God".

The Problem of Evil is an unquantifiable argument.

Side: False

I see no reason not to think a "bad and horrible" "god" might exist, in which case the existence of bad and horrible things is consistent with gods nature.

Side: False

I know it is a cliche, but i think that the bad stuff that happens in our lives is for a reason. I feel like the whole point of life is to learn from what we experiance, both from good and bad events. Our responses to those types of event define our character.

Side: False
1 point

Agreed! 110 PERCENT.

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Side: False
1 point

Just because bad and horrible things happen in life doesn't mean God doesn't exist. That's like saying my father doesn't exist just because he does something I don't approve of. My opinion of his character may change, but not his existence.

Side: False
1 point

God gave us free will, we can choose to follow him or satan. It is our choice, some people chose satan and now you have it, we are a fallen world. Sinful people, that God can't just wink at our sin. Who are we to expect a perfect world, when we are not perfect ourselves. God is the only one perfect and just, He decides the ways of the world not mere man.

Side: False
Cuaroc(8829) Disputed
2 points

He decides the ways of the world not mere man.

God gave us free will,

Nice contradicting statements.

Side: True
Jawkins20(140) Disputed
1 point

We decide what we want to do in this world but God decides it's ways.

Side: False
1 point

God allows bad things to happen to you for you to come to him, for , not to shun you, for him to make you believe. And you forum title does not make any sense, at least not on this earth.

Side: False
1 point

God doesn't manufacture evil, without evil, the world would be without balance, therefore he allows it to happen. Who would he be if no one opposed his rule, where would he be if there were no atheist/non-believers, he would have no job then. The more evil, the more sense. The more believers, less people in his way.

Side: False
1 point

To all you atheists, how can you determine between what is good and evil? That's like giving one student a ninety and one an eighty, that presupposes that one hundred is a real standard. My point is this; if there is no God, where did we get the standard of goodness by which we judge evil as evil?

Side: False
1 point

Atheists get their morality via empathy, and by examining cause and effect. Let's take a look at each one.

Empathy

At approximately 18 months old, we slowly begin to grasp the concept of empathy, understanding how other people feel. This is the first step in our development of morality. As we experience different emotions in life, we gain an understanding that everyone else experiences those same emotions. We know that sadness doesn't feel good, and since we are able to understand how other people feel, we put 2 and 2 together to come up with the idea that making other people feel sad is bad.

Cause & Effect

The desire of nearly everyone in this world is to live in peace and prosperity. By examining the effects of different actions such as murder, rape, charity, tolerance, etc, we see if those actions promote or hinder society's progress towards that common goal of peace and prosperity. If an action promotes the peace and prosperity of a society, we label it "good". If it hinders it, we label it "bad".

Where do Christians get their morality?

Although Christians claim to get their morality from god, in reality they use the same methods atheists do. Let's take a look at some examples. According to the Bible, slavery is an acceptable practice. It even says it's okay to beat your slave as long as the don't die within a few days (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery). Do most Christians today agree that slavery is an acceptable practice? Absolutely not, they know that slavery does not promote peace and therefore it is wrong.

The Bible also says that if a man rapes a woman and is caught, he has to pay fifty sheckles of silver to her father and then the woman will be his wife (Deuteronomy 22:28-29). Do Christians today believe that paying 50 sheckles is acceptable punishment for rape, and that the woman should have to marry her rapist? Of course not, they would never put the poor woman through such trauma because they use the same empathy and logic that atheists use to determine right and wrong. There are many more examples, but I'm sure you get the point. Christians use empathy and logic to pick and choose the parts of the Bible that they believe are moral, and ignore the ones they think are immoral.

Side: True
Jawkins20(140) Disputed
1 point

Objective morals are those that are based outside of yourself. Subjective morals are those that depend on you, your situation, culture, and your preferences. Subjective morals change, can become contradictory, and might differ from person to person. This is the best that atheism has to offer us as a worldview.

Think about it, in atheism, there is no moral right and wrong. There is no moral "should and shouldn't”. Why? Because when you remove God, you remove the standard by which objective moral truth is established. In atheism morality is up for grabs.

In an atheistic worldview, lying, cheating, and stealing are neither right or wrong. They are phenomena to which, if the atheist so decides, moral values can be assigned. Sure, the atheist might say that we all should want to help society function properly and it does not benefit society as a whole to lie, cheat, and steal. But, this is weak intellectual reasoning.

Side: False

To every positive thing, there is something negative. Love cannot exist without hatred, pride without humility, chastity without lust and so one. The yin cannot exist without the yang, as the Chinese say. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_Yang . Therefore, when exists god, exists the devil. They both together keep the universe in balance.

Side: False