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I believe what we're entering into here is the problem of evil presented by Epicurus, which is an extremely solid logical argument against the existance of the classical Abrahamic Gods (Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnibenevelent).
Logically, this triad of traits is contradictory and inconsistant. It states at the most basic level that:
1. If a perfectly good god exists, then there is no evil in the world.
2. There is evil in the world.
3. Therefore, a perfectly good god does not exist.
This stands up extremely well logically. One can argue that a god would have allowed evil to exist to give us the free will to defy it, but this then goes against the Omniscience property of god.
Simply put, you can not logically accept the standard definition of the Abrahamic Gods (all knowing, all powerful, all loving) and accept that god loves us. However, I extend a challange to anyone who can show logically that God can have all three of these powers and still love us.
You obviously missed the point of my argument. There is no point having evil in the world, as god already knows what everyone will do anyway. He knows already who is going to heaven and who is going to hell.
It is a natural thing to know right and wrong. Cannibalism is wrong, why? Because species are programmed in their genetic code to not consume another of its species. Evil arises from the natural trait for greed. Good arises from a species that can comprehend the goal to help the species, not just oneself. Therefore morals arise naturally.
There's something I don't understand about your argument. Why would God being omniscient deny free will? Are you arguing that if he made us and formed our circumstances he essentially made our choices for us? Or is there something else to this argument that I'm missing? My main question about all this is, this: is there any sort of X factor...an element of true human free will? Or are we truly products of the way we were made, plus our circumstances and the decisions of those around us(which aren't their own either, of course)? I don't know the answer to this question, but I'm really curious about it. I know I'm getting a bit off topic, but to me this directly relates to whether or not there is a god...well, whether or not there is a biblical god anyway.
I have another thought as well. I'm not sure I believe it, but it's something I've thrown around in my head. Would we know that we are broken people if it weren't for suffering? Would we know that we need God? Anyone have any thoughts on any of this? I'm probably just going to post my own debate, on this, since I'm clearly very curious about it. haha.
Omniscient means that he knows all things in all times. If he knows the future and knows the 'choices' you will make, how can there be any free will? He knows in advance the choices we are going to make, which evils we are going to suffer, the sins we are going to perform, etc.
He apparently "made us," knowing before he even made us what every single person he was ever going to make would do throughout their entire life (because he is omniscient, and knows all things). How can there possibly be free will if our choices are made for us before we're even created?
So, are you arguing that our choices are a result of the way we were designed, and our experiences? I'm just trying to make sure I understand your argument, because I'm curious about this subject.
Essentially. The argument I'm trying to put forward is that god is meant to have three properties, as attributed to him within the Bible: omniscience, omnipresence and omnibenevolence.
Omniscience, one of the properties attributed to god, is the capacity to know everything infinitely. However, the very idea of free will is inconsistent with omniscience. Say for example that that you come to a crossroads, and you can either go left or right. God knew before you were even created (as he knows everything infinitely) that you were going to go left. Now, is it ever possible for you to go right?
If you do go right, then god is wrong and is not omniscient. If you can't EVER go right, then do you really have free will? You certainly have the illusion of free will, as you are unaware that god already knows the outcome; but do you REALLY have free will? In a world where it was never an option for you to turn right even before you were created, can free will exist?
As I've mentioned in other arguments, if god really does have the property of omniscience then life is nothing but a puppet show with god calling the shots.
Who says we are broken? Does it matter that we are not perfect? Nothing is perfect. Trying to be perfect or follow something that is perfect is only lying to oneself.
"1. If a perfectly good god exists, then there is no evil in the world.
2. There is evil in the world.
3. Therefore, a perfectly good god does not exist."
You cannot have good without evil. Due to free will Satan fell from grace and took up residence in Hell. God could have stopped him but because of free will He let the devil do what he wanted. God loves us because he gives us chances to redeem ourselves, like going to confession instead of sending us straight to Hell.
Why do we need to be redeemed? Maybe God does not deserve to be God. God is just as guilty as the devil, for those who do nothing to prevent evil when they have the power or oppurtunity to do so are just as evil, even cowardly. The point is that an all good, all knowing, all powerful god would make a universe where free will does not lead to evil. That is if he is all good. Personally, any god that can sit back and not help out, and then punish people for an eternity does not seem all good or loving to me.
You need to realize that God has intervened. He sent Jesus to us so that he could die to forgive our sins. Free-will allows us to choose what we want to do, whether it is good or bad, it's up to us to do the right thing. God can tell us what to do but we do not have to do it. The people in hell are there because of their actions. God is good because he is just, he intervenes when it is necessary.
Jesus was a thousand years ago. What about the modern day? Science and intelligent, involved human beings have helped the world, with things such as modern medicine. Did god ever lend a hand? Could he not spare a finger to give a cure to cancer? The answer is no. You can believe your brainwashing ideology, and I will believe mine. This is an argument more of respect for god than whether he loves us.
The classic argument against this is the "Tree of knowledge". Basically, evil would not exist, were it not for the eating fruit from this tree, against God's will, through Satan's temptation. Or, in another interpretation, because Eve had sex with Satan.
Which leads to the simple question. Why would God provide the temptation in the first place if he were all-knowing and all-loving? So basically, this argument fails.
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My argument is that when speaking of dichotomous ideas such as good and evil, you cannot have one without the other. So were evil to not exist in this world, then neither would good. Were hate to not exist, then neither would love. It is the nature of these things to need their opposite in order to exist.
Of course, God loves us. He created us with free will because He loves us. Free will causes sin and suffering, not God. God became flesh as Jesus Christ and died for our sins. This is His perfect gift of grace to the world. Grace is unmerited favor. You do not have to earn it, just receive it.
But god is all-knowing, therefore there is no free will. He knows in advance the choices we are going to make, which evils we are going to suffer, the sins we are going to perform, etc. He knows this all in advance, and knows who is and isn't going to go to heaven. Unfortunately, with the triad of powers that god has (all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving) there's no leeway for free will. Without this important element of free will, god obviously doesn't love us.
There is a big difference between free will and predestination. God is all-knowing, but because He created us with free will, He did not predetermine our choices. Knowing what we will do, is not the same as choosing what we will do God "knows" we will sin, so He lovingly offers us the choice to accept Jesus Christ as our Savior and Redeemer. *Choosing" sin causes pain and suffering. Therefore, God is all- loving, God is all-knowing, and sin exists in the world.
But it creates the following problem. God creates us with free will, but knows before he even created us exactly what each and every one of us would do. I can't see how there is any choice there. God has created all of us with the distinct pre-knowledge of each and every choice that we will ever take in our entire lives. I'm sorry, but that isn't free will. We're given the illusion of free will and of being able to choose, but we will ultimately choose exactly would god knew we would choose before he even created us. That's a very sick puppet show that god is embarking on.
It also presents the problem of god being all loving and all powerful, but refusing to intervene to stop our suffering which he knows is going to occur and, ultimately, intended. You can't have an all loving, all powerful and all knowing creator. There are logical inconsistencies there. Evil and sin exists in the world because god allows it to exist, allows us to "choose" those sins (which we didn't actually choose, since he knowingly created us ingrained with that destiny), and refuses to intervene to stop us from suffering. Wow... how loving of him.
Yes, God is omniscient, and man is predestined AND man has free-will.
Let's say God is a general in an army—the head general. And "soldiers" (people) are following Him in battle. Finally, they come to the BIG BATTLE—the final battle, the biggest battle there will be against the greatest ENEMY. Many soldiers, by this time, have already fallen away from smaller battles, but there's still let's say about 100 left. First, they rest. Then the general says, "It's time. Who will follow me?" Out of the 100 left, about 36 step forward in line and say "I'll follow you." So the general steps in front of each of the soldiers that have stepped forward to follow him, and says "Okay, then I choose you." to each one of the ones that volunteered. Now, the general being so wise, and knowing His men so well, already knew ahead of time which ones would step forward (which ones were too weary, too afraid, etc.) But He wanted them to know in their own hearts of their own free-will that it was their choice. He didn't make them, but because of His wisdom, He foreknew which ones would step forward for the final battle and only chose them.
This is the best illustration I can come up with for how God gives man a choice, but is always still all-knowing.
The analogy you've presented is inaccurate to me; so rather then spend our time coming up with incorrect analogies (neither of us will agree on a correct one), just answer me this simple question:
If god knows that a certain event will happen ahead of time, is there anything that a person can do to stop that event from happening?
If you answer yes then god is not omniscient. If you answer no then all of the events leading up to that event are already decided, and even though a person may have the illusion of free will, all of their actions are predestined.
Nothing you can say on this matter can convince me otherwise, I'm afraid. I've already thought long and hard about all the options, and the only possible option is that there can be no free will with an omniscient god.
Arguments that make out that because god isn't actually making you do the action then you have free will are simply attempts to squirm out of a logical quandrary. Don't assume that just because god isn't directly causing an event that the people involved have free will. If your actions are known ahead of time, and there is nothing you can possibly do to stop that, then you have no real free will (only the illusion of it).
That's not true! If you can imagine that your imaginary friend loves you, then it loves you. No one can say otherwise because no one else can imagine the same thing that you imagine. [;
No, you are just imagining that (s)he does, I can imagine that my worst enemy loves me when (s)he clearly wouldn't. Pretending isn't the same, that's just you loving yourself in a weird way.
"god" loving us implies that (s)he would be reacting to things that happen to us. If god does not exist then it cannot have a reaction, therefore there is no love there.
I think that not only does he not love us, but he's bored with us. That's why we never really see acts of him anymore. And if someone wants to rebut that by saying "But people see signs of Jesus everywhere!" then they are full of shit because if you see a picture of Jesus on a billboard on the highway, that isn't a work of G-d, its just some random guy thinking he's funny.
Then why does God exist? God exists because before humans gained enough knowledge to understand the universe, we needed something we could easily understand, that some super being we cannot see created and runs the universe. A self contradicting being at that. Only simple minded early humans could accept this. We also fear death because we have a hard time accepting the end of life. Therefore, God was made for explanation and to soothe the fear and lack of knowledge of death. Therefore, a being that was our own creation cannot exist and cannot love us.
Or, maybe, just maybe, he is actually a SHE! which would explain so much more because women can give birth and men cannot and, supposing that she isn't necessarily a higher being but just another species, then she could also be hemephoradorous in which case everything that we think and believe would all make more sense!
I don't have a belief. But I just thought it was funny that you said most religions are false except for mine. How would you know that? You said it in such an authoritative sure manner that I found it funny.
Atheism is not a belief system. It is a lack of a belief. You can use the word believe, but I don't think a lack of a belief is a belief that is a bit nonsensical.
Argento made a legitimate claim with support and you replied "You are a tool." So I said your statement is why the 50 character argument exists. To prevent people from making short insults instead of responding to the point. There are times when you can respond to someone's argument effectively in less than 50 characters, and that I have no problem with. You didn't even respond to Argento's point though. Are you satisfied?
How do you know that your religion is correct? And you have to use a type of evidence that if someone used for anything other religion you wouldn't laugh at them. For example: "god told me." If someone said, "I know that 2+2=5 because god told me" you would be astonished.
Yes and my lack of beliefs is a result of a total lack of empirical evidence to the contrary. Do you believe your lack of belief in leprechauns to be true?
"But my religion doesn't interfile with scientific fact."
I actually didn't even mean to imply that. But if you want to head down that route, yes it does. Correct me if I am wrong, but Mormonism accepts all of the tenants of Christianity along with additional beliefs. Well Christianity does disagree with scientific fact: talking snake, resurrection, turning water into wine, and creationism.
All of creation testifies that God exists and acts each and every day. The sun rises and sets, babies are given the breath of life, there are a seemingly limitless number of species with a seemingly limitless number of unique behaviors, each human being is different down to his thumbprint, the ocean only comes just so far, etc. You are a thinking, feeling sole that woke up this morning because God is alive and active.
No. The sun gives the appearance of rising and falling due to the rotation of the earth as it orbits the sun. Babies breathing, limitless number of species, unique behaviours and the fact that I'm a thinking feeling soul are all due to the power of evolution; not a god.
And things such as "the ocean only comes just so far" are backwards thinking; as if the earth is here for us rather than we being here because the conditions of the earth allowed it.
I have to agree with the great philosopher, Bertrand Russell, who wrote that "Religion is based, I think, primarily and mainly upon fear." A study of the history of religions would show how each belief system changed as the level of crop-growing technology changed and societies moved from worshiping multiple gods toward following a single god. An open-minded analysis would show that God and religion are reflections of the human mind.
No, I am a living human because my parents wanted kids. The soul is once again a creation of early humans to explain and comfort the unease torwards death. We are different because no DNA strand ever copies exactly the same. This is called mutation. Stop reguarding religion as the only truth. Science can coexist with God and/or religion. Religion and/or God cannot coexist with science. End game.
I see some people that go to church every week of their lives and never get an ounce of good luck and then I see those people who are agnostic and have life good. I think being of any religion takes up way too much time and is not worth it because one cannot communicate with G-d to even see if what we are doing is to His pleasure or not. So for all we know people of the agnostic faith may have chosen the right path.
I think the only thing we do know is that Christians during the Crusades and Muslim terrorists are in the wrong no matter what.
that is true . if god loved us then why the fuck would he make rapes , molestations and murders go on if he knew it was gonna happen before hand . religion is false live in anarchy
I have seen good and bad things in the world. But not once have I seen god get off his high throne to help. I have seen the good in people. At most God made a scientific universe and is distant. That is why he does not love us. We are his experiment.
That proves nothing. We could all kill ourselves simply over this question of God. That is not God's work, but ours. Babies sadly die because of accidents or genetic problems at birth. Not because some God is involved.
And what age of human life does deserve to be saved? Maybe He loves us so much that He is limiting the amount of people on this planet so that we won't die off like those of our predecessors due to too many people.
God knows everything and he can do anything. It is purported by most religions especially Christianity that God loves us. If we are to take the meaning of love as love, why then are babies born daily with horrifying diseases and deformities?
Suppose I could create life and created a dozen creatures. I love these creatures - they are my creation. Now suppose further that one day, I create one of the creatures with an excruciating disease the effect of which kills the creature in it's infancy. Believing me (rightly) to be all-powerful, how do you suppose the creatures witnessing the event would view me subsequently?
Correct. Neither do the Easter Bunny, Santa Clause, or the Boogey Man. They're all made up. Big Foots real though, I SEEN HIM! He doesn't love us either though.
If he did he would ahve found a way to make us not so hostile oward each other and he would get rid of all the abd people out there who sohlud go to hell for killing,lying,stealing,etc. Why would he let what he created destory itself?
God doesn't show his affection the way that we want him to. That doesn't mean he doesn't love us. Think about your kids when they say, "You don't love me!" Is it that you don't love them or that you just don't show your love for them the way they want you to? You don't give a child everything that he wants; that's not love. Well, God's the same way.
Well then he must of wanted those people closer to him sooner. He promised us salvation from suffering on earth. I think everything happens for a reason.
And don't ask me if he loves people who die from cancer. My grandma died from liver cancer, and yeah it hurt me like crazy, but now she isn't hurting, and that's a good thing.
Because people on earth need to learn how to appreciate the things we do and don't understand. We need to learn faith, and where we want to end up in the future and when we die.
And it is said in the bible that heaven is going to be something so much more miraculous and wonderful than earth.
Because of that, I believe that we must learn what pain is and learn what it feels like to get hurt, that way we can truly be grateful for the kingdom of God.
He makes it hard on us, so that it's worth it in the end.
480 days ago | Tagged As: Yes I know that He does love us
But some people don't suffer anywhere near as much as others. Do those people not truly appreciate heaven? And as I said before, if god is all-knowing he knows beforehand who will and won't learn these lessons from life. He is making them suffer for nothing. The idea that god dishes out hurt to make us appreciate the good he is then going to give us is a bit sick, especially when he knows beforehand who will and won't make it to heaven.
I don't think i can say whether or not those people will or will not truly appreciate heaven because it's impossible to try and reach a person after they die and be like "HEY are you appreciating what God is giving you now?", you know?
And He isn't making them suffer for nothing because with life on earth he gave us the gift of free will, where we are free to accept or reject the belief of God. I'm imagine those who choose to reject must have a slightly more optimistic view on life since they don't think they need to believe in someone that will make their lives better.
God loves us too much to force us into believing in him, and it seems like your saying free will is sick more than God is sick.
I believe in God, and life is hard (which I realize i probably can't say since I am still a teenager), but I find it rather comforting to believe that there's something so much better for us in the end.
"And He isn't making them suffer for nothing because with life on earth he gave us the gift of free will, where we are free to accept or reject the belief of God."
Right. We've hit the nail on the head now. The point I'm making is that if god is all-knowing, how can we have free will? He already knows which choices we are going to make and who is and isn't going to believe in him. There is no free will with an all-knowing god.
No, I don't. I believe he IS all knowing. he knows people won't believe him, and he's ohkay with that. Because whether or not a person chooses to make things easier on themselves is their choice but he's not going to be the one that yells CONVERT I WILL SAVE YOU or some other ishh like that.
When God created things he reflected and said they were good. He knew that mankind would develop their own thoughts and would start disobeying but he doesnt want to be the person that turns into a tyrant and he wanted everyone to think for themselves.
Which is why he gave us free will. He knows people won't agree with everything he wants to teach us, but like i said probably about three times already, God loves us too much to think for us.
I think you're really missing the point here. You can't have free will AND an all-knowing god. If god is all-knowing then he already knows the choices we are going to make, which eliminates any free will we may have. You're arguing something completely different to what I'm saying. Whether he loves us too much to think for us is completely besides the point. The fact is that he already knows which choices we are going to make before we make them... therefore these "tests" that we undergo are just unnecessarily cruel punishment.
So i guess it's understood that you won't comprehend what i say the way i see it and i just won't comprehend what you say the way you say it. Because if i believe you can have free will AND an all-knowing God and support it the only way i know how and you think otherwise and support it with how you see things then there is really nothing to argue about anymore cuz neither of us will accept what the other has to say.
Not really. I won't comprehend what you're saying because there is no evidence, no logical reasoning, etc. In fact, it completely goes against the logical reasoning that I'm presenting to you. My argument is based on logical reasoning which you're choosing to ignore and not answer, and yours isn't.
Your god is a spiteful piece of work then. To create those people so that they can then suffer a horrendous death just to get them closer to him again. Selfish? Unnecessary? Why didn't he just take them all in their sleep? Your argument is flawed and would make more sense (assuming that gods exist for a moment) if the reverse were true, that he hated them.
HAAH. you know what ? I'm just going to stop arguing with the atheists that go on this debate; each one has been so condescending to the Christian and Jewish beliefs.
I don't agree with this, but do you find this amusing ?
I'm sorry, but this is a debating website, where simple "because I think so" just doesn't do it. If you want an argument to be accepted, you have to back it up. Questioning your beliefs and the reasons for them you are providing is not condescending; it's simply a part of the site. If you're having trouble justifying your belief to other people, maybe you should start questioning it yourself rather than personally attacking those you are debating with.
I try hard in my posts not to be condescending to any faith, in a way that I think, believers do not, I try to ensure that I don't single out any particular belief. For instance using "God" implies that Buddhists, Hindus, or Pagans are wrong. Watch out for it, believers do it a lot. To me religion is the same as politics, music, art, whatever, it's all fair game to be discussed, and generally picked apart with logic.
I meant only what I said in the light of "debate".
Video is funny, but the way Americans whoop at (anti atheist) point scoring rather than laugh at something that's funny, reminds me of school kids ganging up, know what I mean?
So for instance, god killed three children because he loved them so much he wanted them closer, sooner. Does this demonstrate his love for the children's parents? They're devastated, whether the children wanted to be separated from their parents is up for debate. If this is love then we've got the definition wrong.
The "problem of evil" as its classically argued seems to do more to perpetuate a complacent whining about the current state of our world rather than inspiring an active move against the oppression, injustice, and evil that plaques our neighbors. I think it works as far as the confines of its own logic to negate the presence of an supernatural being that is "in control" of the cosmos, but it assumes a completely docile, indifferent, and helpless human species that is utterly paralyzed when faced with its own depravity. Thus, the problem of evil serves no practical purpose save to tickle the intellectual fancies of those who get their rocks off sitting around in libraries and coffeeshops endlessly debating these issues while the world around them crumbles into oblivion.
On the other hand, I find it equally distressing when the bible or another religious text is the immediate recourse to establish the existence and/or omnibenevolence of God as if the bible were a counterpart to science or vice versa. The bible (or any other religious text) are human words inspired by the religious experience of human groups wrestling with their historical existence amid forces that were and still are completely outside of our control or knowledge (and always will be in one way or another.)
In the process of wrestling through their existence, these writers, minds, characters, and stories resonate with deep-seeded and (in many ways) universal expressions of what it means to be a human being in this world among other human beings among other living beings between the earth and the sky.
Religious belief in God or the gods, and the hope and prayer that this God or gods we believe in is/are in fact good, is a step "in faith" towards the ultimate desire that I, you, we, or they are good and can strive for peace with one another.
For a massive portion of the world's population, a external source of goodness offers a motivating impulse to aspire to the same in their own lives. A philosophical or scientific argument that intends to reject the metaphysical plane of ethical accountability has a very difficult time establishing a solid ethical ground anywhere else and leaves the responsibility of human individuals to each other fragile and broken setting the stage for horribly destructive consequences.
Hence, until the problem of evil, or science, or strict humanism find a solid ethical foundation that motivates action, we have what we have (though not rid of its own contradictions) in the belief or faith that God is good.
(Please let me know if you got another option that makes me care about what happens to me or you. I'd love to know.)
First, I don't know that an all-benevolent god is a core belief of Christianity. Neither the Nicene or apostle's creed states that god is benevolent. But that's not the question.
Why must it be that if a perfectly good god exists, then evil could not exist? I'm going to repeat the free will argument. Assuming god exists and is completely benevolent, then the greatest gift he could give us would be the freedom to determine our own lives. Otherwise we'd be nothing more than little robots with everything preprogrammed. Evil exists because some people choose to be evil. It's there as a reminder that we have free will.
But if he's all-knowing, then he knows before hand who will and won't choose it. That's a bit of a sick puppet game to be honest, and completely takes away from free will.
I'll say it again, he can't be all-knowing, all-powerful and all-loving.
The apologists would say that our lives in the face of eternity are vanishingly small (literally, actually) and that like the pain of innoculation, suffering now will enable us (in some way) in perpetuity. After death, conveniently enough.
True, but how we act here on earth directly affects our after-life. The choices we make here ensure entry to either heaven or hell. But god is all-knowing, so therefore knows already which choices we will make.
So those who do not accept god and jesus and end up in hell never ever had the chance to do any different. We were stuck on earth to suffer evils, only to suffer an eternity of evils after death. The very concept of god (especially the old testement god) is pretty sick when you really think about it.
Wouldn't it be logical to state that we have free will despite God's all-knowing nature? God may know our decisions ahead of time but they are still our decisions to make. Being aware of something and controlling it are two different things.
Evil exists because any species seeks to gain the most benefit at the expense of others. This is called greed. Morals arise naturally when a species begins to comprehend and think about itself and the species as a whole. To answer your question, because an all powerful, all good, all loving and forgiving god would surely not create freewill that leads to evil. Furthermore, freewill cannot exist if god is all knowing.
Another way of arriving at a logically consistent result is: A all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing god exists. If he knows some evil is necessary for the best possible world, then any evil that exists must therefore be necessary. The evil that cannot exist is non-purposeful evil. Since humans are not omniscient, they cannot tell the difference between the types of evil. But logically, god is all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing, and there is justified and necessary evil in the world.
The flaw in the logic is that you assume evil is not necessary. If god is all three qualities, since evil exists, it must be necessary. If it was unnecessary, his omnipotence would have eliminated it. So therefore, the evil that exists must be justified according to god's plan.
God is all-loving. He loves us more than anybody else on this earth can. God did not put sin and evil into this world, humans did. This world was perfect before God made us. Only when God created Adam and Eve did sin enter the world. The human race should have ended with Adam and Eve. They should have been punished for their rebellion in eating the apple they were told not to. They should have been cast into the lake of fire and human history should have ended. But thankfully, our god is a meciful god. He came up with a remarkable, astonishing, unthinkable alternative: He himself would bear the punsihment for his creation. God himself would enter the world and take on the suffering and death and judgement and judgement that his people incurred. he met the demands of divine justice by submitting to judgement as a criminal and a sinner even though he had never sinned. Put simpler, God sent his son to die for us. He loved us so much that he paid the punishment for our sins already so that we didn't have to.
Some of you might say that if he sent his son then he didnt actually pay for us himself. Well there is this thing called the Trinity.
1.) God the Father
2.) God the Son
3.) God the Holy Spirit
God is all of them. that is very hard to comprehend i know but look at it this way: My dad for example sells auto parts.
He is my father, he is his dad's son, and he is a salesmen. He isnt three different people he is the same person that has all of those roles.
Just as evil entered the world by an act of people, salvation was accomplished by an act of God. All you have to do is believe that God has already paid for our sins and accept Jesus Christ as your saviour to enter into the glorious, extravagent kingdom of heaven. Please if you are more interested in this subject discuss it with the pastor of your local church. I am a baptist so if you talk to a baptist preacher you will get the same opinion i have.
With respect, how did Jesus dying on the cross pay for our sins? If God set the rules, couldn't he have just forgiven us directly? If he decided that his own sacrifice to himself is necessary, is this truly a sacrifice? Is it even a sacrifice for an omnipotent eternal being to sacrifice a small part of himself for a moment of existence (relative to eternity)? The Triad still exists, does it not? Therefore, no sacrifice was made.
Jesus dying on the cross did pay our sin debt, in full— BECAUSE ...
God set the rules, and He is a JUST God, therefore He follows His own commandments. In order to be consistent and just and fair and good, He needed a sacrifice—sins were to be punished then. There's a whole great order to all of it: He sent His one and only son (the most loving sacrifice one can make, especially since His son was sinless and perfect and not deserving of such punishment) to pay the penalty for mankind's sins (because God loved man and wanted to be reconciled to him) and to point to a new direction by doing this (to answer your second question, which is what He does now—"forgive us directly" if asked in faith).... In the Old Testament, God made "the rules" (we'll call them) to help guide early mankind. When He arrives as Jesus, it was also to examine mankind's heart. So many people followed the rules for all the wrong reasons or with judgment and hate—Jesus came to examine mankind's "heart condition" and rectify it and fulfill the payment of sin for once and for all. The only condition is that people must believe Jesus came and did this, lest they insult the sacrifice God made, and God Himself. To me—there is no larger sacrifice—sending Jesus (God Himself, part of the Godhead) to Hell??? When you're God! Just to show mankind that You love him—even though You're perfect and created everything under the sun, You will submit yourself to the humilities of man and hell?—THAT'S love. There is nothing more amazing than that! So yes, a sacrifice was made. And He loves all of us more than we can even BEGIN to imagine. Look at the brains he gave all of you! :)
If evil is necessary, that would mean doing evil would be God's work since it is necessary and by definition, needed. Even evil itself would be God's work. While a broad interpretation of God may allow this, a Christian interpretation of a loving God would not. In other words, "All Loving" is not compatible with evil. A spanking of a child may be an act of love but the child dying in a fire you set intentionally with the intent of harming the child can no way be called love.
466 days ago | Tagged As: Evil not compatible with Love
While we have witnessed human suffering around the world that, in and of itself, does not equate to the idea that "God doesn't love us." Neither God or what is written in the Old Testament of the Bible promises us an easy ride here on earth. Indeed, when Eve partook of that apple in God's garden of Eden, she had no idea of God's will vis-a-vis his power to give and take in this world.
I have seen human suffering wherever I have visited in the world but I have also witnessed God's kindness to His people. How do we know that God created suffering or miracles or kindness? We don't, really. This is something that lies in our faith that God is in control of our destiny here on earth. If one believes God created the earth and everything in it then see the miracles of nature. They are astounding in their beauty and their complexities. See the cures our medical geniuses have provided us throughout the centuries. His gifts are all around us and yet all we see are the injustices perpetrated on mankind.
I think we don't understand human suffering as a tool by which to make things right. God has given us choices since that day in Eden and we cannot blame Him for all the wrong we see. There is a book available that is entitled "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" written by Harold S. Kuschner that makes much sense out of this chaotic world. Another series, if you really wish to test your faith and beliefs, is entitled "Conversations With God: An Uncommon Dialogue" written by Neale Donald Walsch that was so broad it was written in three volumes. They were among the most fascinating books I've ever studied.
I know that God loves all of us for I have seen much to point me in that direction through the years. I do, however, understand your and anyone's questioning of this possibility.
482 days ago | Tagged As: Yes I know that He does love us
depends really. we really don't know what god is yet (if it even exists). if it is a conscience god, i would like to thank it for giving me free will and for actually making life worth living. what's the point in life if nothing happens and you don't have to do anything to get what you want... there is no point.
if an all powerful creator is giving me free will, i'd have to say he really does love me (for not turning me into his slave).
Wrong, God loves all of us. The Apostle John tells us that, "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16, KJV).
480 days ago | Tagged As: Yes I know that He does love us
Wrong, God doesn't love any of us. The apostle Billy Bob tells me that, "God really hated the world, so he gave his only daughter, who was a right little bugger, that whosoever would have a bit of rumpy pumpy with her should not be happy, but have everlasting torment" (Terry 13:37).
This is a quote written down in my notebook on my desk. It has just as much validity as your quote, though.
Number one was an assumption based on absolutely no evidence or logic, and therefore cannot be used to draw a logical conclusion.
Number two doesn't matter as god is all-knowing, and therefore already knows which choices we are all going to make. He knows beforehand who is going to heaven and who is going to hell.
Number three, as with number two, is irrelevant as god is all knowing.
"He DOESN'T want there to be evil in the world. Have you read the Bible?"
Have you read my argument? I said quite clearly that god doesn't want there to be evil in the world. So, thank you for agreeing with me.
"Yes, He does, but He wants mankind to want to completely eradicate evil and do it by following His ways. By glorifying Him and doing it for Him and through Him, He is the eradicator of it."
Let's not beat around the bush here. If god wants everyone to believe in him before he will stop evil in the world, then not only does he not love us, but he is vain and jealous to boot. He's not the eradicator of evil, he is the one who allows it to happen.
"Yes, there is evil in the world. Why is that? Because MAN refused to let go of his pride and thought he knew best, instead of following God's ways."
No, because god refuses to eradicate it. Make all the excuses and justifications you want, the bottom line is that god has the power to eradicate evil but chooses not to. Putting stipulations on his love (such as believing in him, accepting him as your savior) doesn't sound like an all-loving god to me.
Also let's not even begin to delve into the old testament, which is practically a catalogue of god's evils.
I talked to God yesterday. He said you're full of shit and that the Universe resulted from a big explosion and we evolved over billions of years and he's been sitting on his ass watching MASH reruns the whole time. Also he told me to tell you he hates you.
What has the state of the world come to!? You poor people. You are lost, and I will pray for you. Your alllowing evil into your life. I'm sorry. God sent his ONLY SON to DIE for US on a WOODEN CROSS that WHO SO EVER BELIEVES in HIM shall NOT PERISH, but have EVERLASTING LIFE! What is wrong with you????
You are the sad one. You are a slave to religion. I will not bow down to some high and mighty being who is so high in the clouds he refuses to help. If a god exists, he is uncaring and distant. This is called deism, and makes more sense. You have been so brainwashed that you cannot think outside your box. You only think someone heres your prayers, that someone talks back to you. It is your imagination. Get over it.
That's a very good point sonerbalon but I would add that many people don't trust or have faith in God.
I have a very good friend who lost his nephew at the age of 13. The boy had been ill all of his life. His father could never understand why John was so at peace with himself and could accept his fate so easily. John would tell his father things that his dad just couldn't understand. Hid Dad became angrier by the day when they finally knew that John was about to leave them. After he died, his father grieved for many months and then one day he called my friend, his brother, and told him that he had been thinking about all the things John had told him while he was still alive. He knew, at long last why John's mission here on earth was finished and why God gave John to them to love. John's dad thought that he had no joy, no peace, no understanding and no place to go after his only son died. John had taught his father how to care about others and think about his time here on earth. His dad had to go over to the hospital to pick up some paper-work that had been left there for him and the day he did, he saw a boy about the same age as John. The boy was struggling with his own pending death and his heart told him to reach out to this teen. He told the boy the story of his son and spoke with him as John once did with his dad. The two became fast friends and visited each other often when the boy came home from the hospital. This went on for months until the day the boy made his last visit to the hospital as a patient. Suddenly they both knew why they were there. One was there to teach and the other to learn. God provided them each the appropriate avenue down which to travel.
478 days ago | Tagged As: The Lessons of Life and Death
Thanks Xaeon but John always spoke of God and his dad wondered how there could be one since he didn't "LOVE" John enough to save him. I cannot refute what I witnessed as John's dad finally came full circle and understood God's love for John and himself. They did believe God loved them. I didn't live it, but they did. It is, perhaps, not the way you see it but you as well as all are entitled to your own ways of thinking.
That is a situation of circumstance. God is so ingraned into our human mindset that in times of stress god is the imaginary friend that helps our minds make sense of a bad situation.
it is not rightful to tell that god doesn't love us....how can you say that god doesn't love us.... the problems that we are encountering is just a test to us. this will measure our faith for him.... besides, he never give trials if he knows that we can't do that. the reason of our failure is that we never think that we could overcome such hindrances, such trials that is given to us. think of it. How many times you experience failure in life. and what's the reason of such failure.... for sure it is because you lack of confidence... you lack faith in god....
There are many solutions to the problem of evil. One solution is that God is not all-powerful. This makes the world a place of duality, where the devil and God reign opposing kingdoms and cannot stop eachother. I don't agree with this argument, but this is one solution to it. The argument I tend to side with is the argument for the best of both possible worlds. We can live in a possibility of two different worlds. The first world is full of people who have no free will. Because of this, there is no evil in the world. These "slaves" cannot choose to murder, steal, lie, cheat, or sin. They cannot choose to love, live life, or relax to the fullest either, though. The other world is full of people who have free will. Therefore, they use this free will to do what they wish. Some people use it like Charles Manson or the BTK killer. Others use their free will like Ghandi or Mother Theresa. It all depends on which world you would rather live in: a free world with evil or a good world without choice.
For whatever reason, "God," has chosen for this stage play to be consummated through the corridors of time with humans playing host to demons, to Holy Spirit.
It's a lousy deal, the hands dealt down here, to so many who have received them.
You can lose decades doing the, "right thing."
Stinkers can cr-p all over good people and seeming fly free to have enjoyable lives.
It IS a war. Michael, angel, in going to see one of God's prophets, was far from punctual and on time. Rather, he offered that his delay was the result of being opposed by the Prince Of Persia. A distinct reference to a powerful fallen angel that had come against him.
Satan means Opposer. Literally.
He is called the prince of this world.
And that he stands judged as such.
And people, it is going to get much worse, and in our time.
Satan will wage war against the Saints and overcome them.
It is a crummy picture.
The promises from Holy Spirit, in response to prayer, usually run along much the same lines, being nearly always a promise for the future.
Which does precious little in the suffering, which as stated previously, can go on for decades.
Sometimes those promises are especially disappointing when made for near future and they Just Don't Come Through.
Is God really that compromised with The Fall?
It is bleak, to be sure, for all engaged down here on the ground.
God IS real. I know through experience, not just faith.
But I sure have had my bit-h sessions with the lousy care. As we are told to test God, I have, and either a negligent or weak father has been the result.
Something is terribly wrong, and it not just with us down here on the ground.
There is a magnificent rift in the celestial regions which HAS seemingly compromised God's short term abilities, though we are assured that ultimately all will be restored in full.
I'm tired of all this crud.
I'm for getting this show on the road.
Bring it down, to a close, and get on with it sooner rather than later.
I would like to believe that God really exist. It would be a great feeling that you know that there is a divine being who's watching over you. Christianity and his teaching has been there for thousands of years. I think it wouldn't last all these years it it was something baseless. God gave us free will for us to choose because its already in our nature to decide is something is wrong or right.
Most people are weak minded. I myself will often doubt why I do not believe in God. The fact is that some people need a large group to tell them how to live and what to believe just so that they can be at peace with themselves
God does love us...we are like his children he created us he gave us life and people are saying he doesn't love us... it's like saying your mum whom gave you life and loves you more then you will ever know hates you and doesn't love you and infact doesn't exist...it's satan who doesn't love us
Do you think God would permit us to be living at this point. If he hated us, he couldve destroyed humanity for its wicked ways, but he didnt. he loves us so much that to this point he is still giving us the opportunity to turn from our sinful ways he even sent jesus to die for us, so that we would be forgiven of our sins. But what good is love, when the someone doesnt want to open up to it.
I have two issues with the Problem of Evil Argument.
One, define evil without good. Try. I dare you.
Evil and Good cannot be defined without each other. If one cannot exist without the other, than do either really exist? If Good and Evil are inseparable, how can you say that a Good God would cause no evil?
Two, At the most, this argument strips away the characteristics of God. This argument doesn't Strip away God, but rather the Concepts associated with God by Organized Religion.
I offer an alternate theory for those who may dislike my argument, for it being to much based on concepts and language. If "God" is formed from everything in the universe, forever, if "God" is not centrally conscious, then all of the parts of "God" may not be moving towards the same end. And, if the parts of the whole do not move towards the same end, then disagreement and "evil" are most certainly likely.
Wrong. If your definition of love has been distorted by the worl then,yes God does not love us. Humans tend to think that God is phyisical, and he is not.
What does human suffering in the world have to do with God loving us or not? He gave us free will and we use it, much to our chagrin at times. Someone asked if he loved all the people taken by the tsunami and I can say he did. God doesn't arrange our lives or our deaths and then sit and gloat over it. God does love us because every day of our lives we have another opportunity to do His will and abide by His commandments. There is a reason people suffer and die on this earth. Has it ever occurred to you that suffering also causes awakening of sorts for others? That is a good thing that something positive can come our of tragedy if we simply pause to listen to what is being told to us. Yes, God loves us, each and every one of us in His way not yours or ours.
it is to wrong that you'll or someone will say that doesn't love him/her it is for the reason that God is always there around us we doesn't know but it is very true...
y would he put people through the pain of being an outcast or putting people in jail for believing just so we can live forever?
CHRISTIANITY: the belief that some cosmic jewish zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master so that he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a ribwoman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
Whilst you may be being voted down, and whilst I may usually not agree with you, the point you're making is a valid one. Religion is absolutely nuts sometimes.
my veiw is that we should live for the here and now not for what might have been or what could be.
all we do when we create goals is prepare ourself for failure. so if you have no goals you reach them to their fullest potential.
God doesnt fit in with the here and now. iv known too many people who have died to think that he exists. i dont care if i get voted down for this but if there really is a god then he's a fuckwit!
