God's Plan VS Your Plan
Forgiven
Side Score: 40
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Unforgiven
Side Score: 38
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I've been forgiven. Based on the Christian view I grew up around, I was saved. I was at a Christian camp and I broke down crying, what people might call a spiritual or "emotional high".It was a very interesting feeling, as I had a great sense of solidarity with the others in the room. I don't think I've ever felt something like that before. Since then, things have changed. As I've grown up and been introduced to various viewpoints and I began to change. On topics such as gay marriage, which I had previously wholeheartedly supported because my parents did, I changed my position after I was convinced by a friend, and I haven't found an argument that convinced me to change position since. After doing further investigation on the Bible (specifically the old testament) I decided that it was not something I wanted to advocate for. I learned about the Theory of Evolution through Natural Selection and that's currently the Theory I agree with most. I did like some of the values that modern Christianity promotes, such as loving one another and the golden rule, so I guess that makes me a pseudo-Christian. I detest the Bible, I don't believe in God, and I completely disagree with my parent's core values. Luckily, because of when I was 9, I'm going to heaven. So yeah, I've been forgiven. Side: Forgiven
So you had a weird experienced under peer pressure and felt a solidarity with the group. That is not repenting of your sin and believing on Jesus to receive Him as your Savior. You never met Him, you had a weird experience which was not Him, and that experience left your mind open to accept lies excusing sin. So now you excuse your sins instead of agreeing with God that your sin is evil. You are not forgiven, you never were forgiven, and you are on your way to Hell. How in the world do you think you can detest God and be forgiven? Your plan is to do your own thing your own way and tell God off? that's not a very good plan. Side: Unforgiven
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Correct, but I also believed at the time that I was repenting of my sin. At the time, I most definitely believed in Jesus and received him as my Savior. I didn't meet him mostly because I reasoned later that he didn't exist. As for sin, I know I do bad things. So how do I become forgiven. If truly believing that I was forgiven and that I was saved and was going to heaven isn't being forgiven, that what is? As for telling God off, if the Bible is truly God's word, then I will most definitely detest it. Leviticus is one example- the Bible says "Do not kill", yet many of the commands in Leviticus instruct people to kill homosexuals and incestuous people. Anyways, what do you suggest I do to truly meet Jesus and be forgiven? Side: Forgiven
evolution is the religion of death, you love death when you trust in evolution and death is all you will get out of it, forever dying in the lake of fire, frying like an eternal sausage.........stuck in the death you are in now, with no hope of ending it through evolution. Side: Forgiven
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Evolution isn't a religion; it's a widely supported theory. Furthermore, what does that have to do with death? Me thinking that evolution is the most plausible explanation for speciation doesn't mean I love it, and it certainly doesn't mean I love death. As for death, we all have to die. I'm certainly not ready to die, but I'll have to accept it some day. Evolution is completely unrelated, and I don't hope to prevent myself dying through evolution. Also, props to the "frying like an eternal sausage" metaphor, that is some great imagery. Side: Unforgiven
Did you hear about this organism which survived 120,000 years frozen and then came back to life? https://www.newscientist.com/article/ Side: Unforgiven
Even if you can loosely argue that Evolution is a religion....it isn't but putting that aside, if it's anything it supports life finding a way to survive in an ever changing environment. It's beating the odds set against you by adapting, growing and learning different techniques through time, trial and error. To me that's beautiful, the persistence of life.... not something morbid like a religion of death. Side: Unforgiven
if we as I believe that god is always a loving god, there for he does not have to forgive. he never took offense in the first place. this concept is different but should we not consider this. god loves all with no hesitation or reservation. he does not take offense because he knows that we are all not perfect and there for expects mistakes. Side: Forgiven
So when God says "don't steal", or "Don't use my name as an expletive", or "don't commit adultery", and you do these things in mental imagery if not in reality, your plan is to tell God "hey, it's no biggie, you love me so it's okay when I do wrong". If God is like that, why does He make you die? Side: Forgiven
why would god even say do not steal, does he use money to. I doubt it. why would god even tell us not to commit adultery when he knows a sizable part of people will do just that. you have confused human failings for a being that is as close to perfection as there is. simply put you have put human problems into a god being. does not match up, at least in my opinion. last of a all to address your final point. death is part of who we are because our life are not infinite. god does not concern himself with death because he has no concept of it. however we do. maybe perhaps when we evolve more our life spans will grow longer. I do not reply to you to question your faith, I am simply bringing to your attention a different faith based somewhat on typical judeo Christian belief but with a few different wrinkles. Side: Unforgiven
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You asked so I'll answer. Though I know a ban is coming followed by multiple taunts after I'm banned. Original sin goes back to Adam and Eve, which is a simple parable told by Bronze Age people. We've already debated that on this site multiple times. I do not believe we all carry some terrible mark of original sin because an ancestor did something stupid with a forbidden apple. Sin conducted during our lives is a whole separate discussion. I believe in being good, I do not necessarily believe Bronze Age texts describing what is good and not is the definitive answer on what is "sin". Nor do I believe prophets spinning the tale of Jesus decades after his death are without their own motives, cultural influences, or human imperfections. The best lesson from the discussion of sin is try to be a good person, with tolerance and fairness. A god that will strike you down for doing that probably isn't a god you should be following. And a god that doesn't care whether you try to be good, only that you blindly follow, is essentially a devil. Heaven/hell may or may not exist but even if they do they're unlikely the storybook version spun by the true believers. I do not fancy sitting on a pillowy cloud in a city filled with streets of gold while others I knew and loved get tortured forever in a hellish fire. That's Bronze Age brutality thinking. Most of us are raised in a particular religion, taught what the good members of that religion do and believe, and never make any serious effort to study all the rest with the same fervor to prove to ourselves yes we must be right about the right one. We just blindly accept the one we were given. I think a lucky few wake up enough to realize a child born in the Himalaya's to a non Abrahamic religion may act more like the example of Christ than one raised in a Christian home who otherwise acts like a jerk. You will call that non-Christian (and me) unforgiven and doomed to burn in hell, yet I would rather walk beside that Himalayan than you, and frankly neither of us are scared of what you keep threatening will become of us. I believe discussing these things openly and thinking for ourselves is not a rejection of God. You on the other hand lump anything other than total submission as atheism and arrogance. Not true. What is arrogant is believing the vast majority of people in this world not only will go to hell but deserve it, and that while you act like a jerk toward them you will be magically spared and elevated because you framed your life around statements made by persecuted leaders of a struggling branch of religion in the decades after their leader was executed. Go ahead and ban and mock now. Side: Unforgiven
Only God can save you from your sin, death, and Hell. He paid your price in death to pull you out of it in His resurrection if you will believe on Him, trust in Him, receive Him as your Savior. Only God can save you. You are trusting in your on intellect which cannot save you, cannot get you out of your sins, cannot keep you out of Hell. It's pride, you are proud and God resists the proud. Sorry. There is no other way to be saved but through God the Savior. If you have a problem with that, it's your problem and it won't do you any good to cling to it. Side: Forgiven
Heaven/hell may or may not exist but even if they do they're unlikely the storybook version spun by the true believers. I do not fancy sitting on a pillowy cloud in a city filled with streets of gold while others I knew and loved get tortured forever in a hellish fire. That's Bronze Age brutality thinking. --------------------------------------- Don't worry about it, the way you are going you will be in the fire with the others you know who are not saved Side: Forgiven
That's not a very good plan you have there....in fact, it's no good at all. God's plan is for you to be saved from Hell and have eternal life now. You want to make your own plans, go ahead and see if they keep you out of Hell. I think you should read the Title and OP again. Side: Forgiven
An analogy would be you ask my plan for staying safe from vampires. I answer by discussing where legends of vampires came from and why I'm not really afraid one is going to bite me. And you answer by saying that's not a very good plan for staying safe from vampires. Go back to your garlic. Side: Unforgiven
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Before making a judgment of the comparative merits between the two plans as shown in your thread it would be good if someone could explain what God's ( any one of the man made Gods will suffice) plan is. If God's grand plan is to create suffering, disease, starvation, and carnage through endless human conflicts then he is being outstandingly successful. If however we look at the attempts of such bodies as the United Nations who are dedicated to the relief of human suffering, the fostering of international understanding & harmony as well as unnecessary deaths then I side with my fellow human beings. For just one instance, it seems that whilst our uncaring reckless God zooms around the Cosmos he permits, if not promotes, the painful and lingering deaths of some 2000 DEATHS OF AFRICAN BABIES ''EVERY DAY''. These are helpless, and in my eyes sinless infants who have to suffer the unimaginable horrors of death by starvation, disease and dehydration. All this in the name of the LORD GOD, JESUS CHRIST AND THE HOLY GHOST. Once again I have to look at the efforts of those in the medical profession who work tirelessly to save lives and reduce the suffering of all living creatures on earth whilst God watches from his lofty position unmoved by the shocking plight of millions of HIS FLOCK, such a yarn. According to the Bible he is our shepherd and we are his flock. That being the case may I suggest that God goes to night classes at his local technical college and dramatically improves his woeful shepherding skills. It make me feel sick in my stomach to listen to the Holy Joes spew out their sanctimonious drivel about some big silent shy man in the sky and how he loves us all. I know that no one could possibly be so stupid to believe this mumbo jumbo, so why do they continue with their preaching? Side: Unforgiven
God's plan is for you to be saved from Hell, if you will trust Him and what He did for you when He died for you on the cross, when He took your place and paid in full for your sins so you can be pardoned as your debt to God has been paid....if you will repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him as your Savior by faith. The United Nations is not dedicated to relief of human suffering, it is dedicated to raising up an elite ruling class denying sovereinty of individual nations......they could care less if you suffer. God suffered for you when He became a man and died in your place, paid your price, but you don't care what He did for you, you don't care that He suffered and died for your sins, and you just want to blame Him for allowing people to live in a world with suffering. What do you want Him to do, kill everybody and put them out of their misery, of do you want Him to step down, go away, and let you be God since you seem to know how to be God better than God knows how to be God. According to the Bible you are not of His flock, He is not your Shepherd, you are of your father the devil....you are a goat with no shepherd, not a sheep being shepherded by the Good Shepherd who gave His life for His sheep. You're trying to murder the Shepherd and trash His name, and then you want to claim the Bible says you are one of His sheep? Really? Who do you think you are kidding? (a little pun there, as goats kid) God is not silent, you are just sticking your fingers in your ears and pretending to be stupid and having pretty good success at it. I think you have contributed more than enough here, thank's for you input. Side: Forgiven
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"you just want to blame Him for allowing people to live in a world with suffering. What do you want Him to do, kill everybody and put them out of their misery, of do you want Him to step down, go away, and let you be God since you seem to know how to be God better than God knows how to be God." This does give me a question. I don't want God to put people out of their misery, that's cruel. The thing is, I DO blame him for allowing people to live in a world with suffering. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you believe that God created the universe and is also omniscient. If this is correct, then God created the universe with the fact in mind that people would suffer and die. So yes, I blame God for allowing people to suffer and die. Furthermore, you act like God putting people out of their misery is the only option. He's God, and if he can do anything, then why doesn't he provide cures for these people suffering? If God does love the world, then why doesn't everyone have delicious food and water at their will? Look, I'm not God, and I'm not saying I would make a good God. But if I did create a universe, I would at least make sure that people wouldn't have to die of disease or starvation or of thirst. Side: Forgiven
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"Unforgiven." The name of one of my favorite Westerns! Thanks. As far as your debate topic, Mr. Saint............ As one of the resident atheists here, I feel compelled to weigh-in. First: NO...I do not think you are a terrible person and I will not mock you or oyur beliefs here. That said....as a non-believer in your God, or any other of the thousands of gods man has invented over the eons, He does not play a role in planning my life. Nor do I look for him for advice, guidance, forgiveness, or any sort of Salvation. Indeed, if he DID exist--a super long shot at best--I feel that in view of his Absentee Landlord status in governing this world during my life, it is HE who owes ME an apology. In fact, he owes all of mankind a big fat teary-eyed "I am sorry for being so lame." He also needs to tell us why, by all appearances, he has allowed Satan to kick his ass like a red-headed stepchild. If your god CAN intervene in eradicating violence and disease, then since he has not, he is a cruel god. And if he cannot, which it appears indeed he, well, cannot, then he is NOT all-powerful. Thus, why worship? Or look to him for anything? A great line from one of my favorite sports movie comedies, "Major League" is when Serano, the team Voodoo devotee, gets fed-up with his god-like icon, which he keeps in the clubhouse and calls "Jobu." Serano says to him...."I bring you rum, Jobu. I stick up for you. I pray to you. But you no help me now. So, I say to you...Fuck You, Jobu. I do it myself!" This is an accurate paraphrase of what I would say to your God. "Fuck You, Yahweh. I do it myself." Signed....Slappy. SS Side: Unforgiven
Sorry, I stopped reading at "He (God) owes me an apology". Are you angry at God for bringing you into existence in a world of pain and suffering? God is not going to apologize to you, He wants you to apologize to Him and turn away from your sin. Your sin put His Son on the cross where He gave His life's blood to cover your sin if you will humble yourself and admit it's you who deserves to die while His son did not, but He died in your place, took your punishment, and in His resurrection holds His arms open wide to you bidding you to come to Him, trust Him, believe on Him, let Him be your life, and have eternal life to be free forever from sin, pain, death, suffering, and Hell. This world is only for a moment. I can see you are going off on that absurd "If He will not stop evil now, He is not omnipotent" junk...that stuff is incoherent. It completely denies the character of God and then says that because God does not have the character of God, He cannot be God. You start with an absurdity by inventing a straw man who is not God, then arguing against your absurdity.........and that garbage gets passed around by people like you as if it's intelligent. It's twisted devious nonsense, creating an absurdity and then saying your absurdity cannot be God, and the way it's said is like a fool standing up in a lightning storm pounding on his chest saying "SEEEE!!!!! THERE IS NO GOD OR HE WOULD ZAP ME DEAD!.".....forgetting that God is merciful or He cannot be God. So correct me if I'm wrong: your plan is to do everything you can to make yourself and others thing that God is bad, and then go out of existence. Are you sure you won't have to face God at that moment when you expect to go out of existence? I don't think your plan is worth dying for, but if you think it is then by all means go for it. Side: Forgiven
banned for profanity. What in the world ever makes me think you will engage in an intelligent conversation? You keep dragging up this old regurgitated rhetorical garbage which in your mind is unanswerable, and you refuse to acknowledge the logical fallacies and you know it's over when you curse in my debates. Side: Forgiven
You are the one Satan is destroying,. If's you who is being defeated, on death row, condemned, going down with the devil to the devil's hell if you don't get saved from it. Jesus conquered death, Heaven awaits those who He purchased with His blood, those who have repented of their sin and believed on Him and received Him as their Savior. Hell awaits those who will not repent of their sin. It's you the devil is kicking around. Look what he did to your teeth already. God is keeping you out of Hell while the devil is trying to turn you into a demon hunter psycho or a sex pervert to get aids or whatever deadly disease combos, get you drunk and in a car wreck to pull you down to Hell or a bar brawl to get your brains bashed in.....if's you who is losing, friend, and you will lose everything forever if you think your sin is worth more than life. Party Hearty, Have a good one! It may be your last one. Even if you turn into an copy cat of old Richard Dawkins sitting fat on a pile of money earned by sucking off the anger people have against God..............you're still losing it all, still a loser....Dawkins is a loser. You be like Dawkins in death, and see if it's worth it. I'll be like Jesus in life, and I know it's worth it, and no amount of pain or suffering can take away from what He has given me. Side: Forgiven
God will confine all evil in Hell one day, purge sin from Creation and you will be gone where nobody will have to put up with your foul mouth any more. Those lines implying God is not good because evil and suffering are in the world........that's just plain stupid and you think it's profound? And you present it as if it's intelligent? And you want me to think you are intelligent? You're dumber than the devil, Slappy. The devil knows he lost, you think you are winning when you're losing. Too many hockey pucks on your head. Side: Forgiven
You don't want God to intervene now and stop all evil....it would mean the end of your time and the beginning of your eternity in Hell. Saying He has to do it in order for you to believe in Him is not a very good plan, but it is sure to bring you your desired result eventually....maybe today, maybe tomorrow, maybe a hundred years from now....but you will get the proof you want. Side: Forgiven
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So your plan is to be banned. Okay.....God will allow you to be banished in the Lake of Fire forever, if you really want to be banned. If you change your mind, repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved and not banished to Hell. As you have requested, you are banned here. I have less patience than God. Side: Forgiven
If you are forgiven and you know it, please tell of the time and place it happened when you first realized how you could be forgiven. If you are not forgiven, and you are trying to excuse yourself, maybe I can help you too see your need of God's forgiveness and His provision for your pardon so you can be freed from your sin and have eternal life now. All follow the in the footsteps of the pillock that is SaintNow and have a laugh at those atheists be they burning in hell or in cages at the hands of ISIS... still good for a laugh. You are all rude dirty big mouthed miserable childish retarded obnoxious stupid fatty moron doggy idiotic pompous bratty nasty faced dope headed foul mouthed punk fool hater witch fag jerk faced monkey phony wino cheapo bastards. In Jesus is real, SaintNow is the anti-christ. His anti christian message is clear. Side: Unforgiven
Of course I'm unforgiven; because I have nothing to be forgiven for. Religions such as Christianity tell you that you are born sick and that they are the cure, but I'm not sick. I know I'm not sick, and the cure you're offering is nothing more than homeopathy. So, now, if you think that you can convince me that a god exists, I will not stop you, but you should be prepared for me to explain to you that it doesn't. Side: Unforgiven
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If you stopped reading at the point you said, how come you also know what SS wrote after it? Lol. You must be scared to admit that the truth hurts, and that you dont have any counter-argument. Everybody knows your position is weak, that's why you ban... 'nuf said Sad to see how gullible and brainwashed people can be when it comes to matters of faith. Anyways, Blessings ya'll Side: Unforgiven
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