CreateDebate is a social debate community built around ideas, discussion and democracy.
If this is your first time checking out a debate, here are some quick tips to help get you started:
Arguments with the highest score are displayed first.
Argument replies (both in favor and in opposition) are displayed below the original argument.
To follow along, you may find it helpful to show and hide the replies displayed below each argument.
To vote for an argument, use these icons:
You have the power to cast exactly one vote (either up or down) for each argument.
Once you vote, the icon will become grayed out and the argument's score will change.
Yes, you can change your vote.
Debate scores, side scores and tag scores are automatically calculated by an algorithm that primarily takes argument scores into account.
All scores are updated in real-time.
To learn more about the CreateDebate scoring system, check out the FAQ.
When you are ready to voice your opinion, use the Add Argument button to create an argument.
If you would like to address an existing argument, use the Support and Dispute link within that argument to create a new reply.
Because Christianity was invented to control you. To make you fear God. Unfortunately this image doesn't fit with the loving image that is needed to make people love this imaginary creature. But oh well Christians ignore paradoxes like this because they feel their live is so empty without their imaginary friend.
Fear of god is required. Not literal fear of facing god, but the fear of the consequences for doing something you know you should not do. And that means think before you act.
You find many wise words in religions when you read with an open mind.
To love God, all I have to do is look at the ugliness of those who live outside of his word. Put your arrogance aside and learn. I hope some day you realize how much we all need him, but he doesn't need us. But yet he waits, chastises, and offers us a way to him. The ship is sinking and the leader of the last life boat just wants you to leave your baggage behind and hop in. Stand by the railings and argue if you want; You can't deny your existence is finite in the face of inaction.
God is for the weaker mind. Someone who can't accept there is no right and wrong. No life after death. The point to life is survive until you die. The only judgment that exists is the judgment of humans.
God's not real. People constantly blame Satin. If theirs one god, than there's no Satin. Technically Satin is the evil God like Christianity. Every Religion has an evil God including Christianity. So if there's one God than that God causes all the Fucked up shit in this world. But that's just my thoughts.
Plus I'm Atheist. There's no god. Early Modern Humans made religion because they didn't understand the world.
Technically pronto humans that lives 6-7 million years ago didn't worship god. Meaning that the earliest Humans were Atheist. Early Homo Sapiens didn't understand the world and themselves. Making religion. I can counter an comment you make fuckface.
I'm the one that's making a fool. You suck dick for some God that doesn't even exist. You believe a book with lies and historical inaccuracies. You discriminate evolution, but you have lack of information of it. If your gonna hate something, you minus well know about it. Mutation is the Keyblock of evolution, not being created by dust. Humans constantly Mutate. If you want to know about evolution, watch X men and X2
Actually, X Men and X2 actually gives some pretty good information about evolution. It actually informs. But know you look stupid. Everyone On this site know that I'm 13. You can easily see it on my page you bacteria inflated anus.
Tell me, who writes and produces Hollywood movies? Do our best and brightest scientists come together and say, "We need to teach everyone evolution?" or do a bunch of liberal idiots, who were incapable of doing anything else in college except for getting a worthless English or theater degree, make their best attempt at writing something entertaining and capable of making them money by appealing to the population's lusts and irreverent agendas?
If you want to go through your life learning from Hollywood movies, you will live it as a run of the mill sub-sentient moron. Everything you believe is just what others have told you to believe, with no measurable amount of thought or knowledge involved.
Number one I don't give a fuck what you say. Number two, I actually studied evolution for myself. I'm actually free and Independent. Your telling me I only believe what I'm told. You can't be talking, your a Christian, you believe what men tell you in that bullshit Bible. You actually belive that the first Humans were Homo Sapiens and that Snakes can talk. S
Why are you finding yourself reading this right now?
Number two, I actually studied evolution for myself.
Sure you did, come talk to me when you are through college biology and chemistry, an graduate level probability so you can tell me exactly what the odds are of random amino acids coming together to form a protein molecule.
Your telling me I only believe what I'm told. You can't be talking, your a Christian, you believe what men tell you in that bullshit Bible.
I never said my position is unique. What i can tell you is my position developed after a decade of pondering it. 10 years ago you were just mastering the toilet. In addition, there is a 98% chance I am smarter than you. Barring some major head trauma, your position will never be as well thought out as mine.
You actually believe that the first Humans were Homo Sapiens
I believe, at a minimum, the book of genesis teaches important lessons about the nature of man. It does not have to be literally true to play its spiritual role. I also believe, taken literally, is the most scientifically accurate "creation myth" of all religions. At the current point in time, there are such gaping holes in the scientific theories about life and the universe that it would be illogical to definitively say "there is no higher power."
If everything atheists believe is true, then the odds of our existence is so insanely remote... Like 1:1trillion remote, an erroneous belief in a creator should be considered understandable.
Actually Ten years ago I was going to school, plus I was already potty trained. Plus how do I have time to study college biology when I'm in the 7th Grade. You sound so immature right know. You discriminate me but you have lack of knowledge. When I was 3,i was smarter than your average American 4 year old. Study something before you hate it. List facts not your own opinion.
Your wrong. Just because I'm 13 that doesn't mean I have a limited amount of knowledge. Just because back in the year 1904-1905, Japan was a developing country, does that mean that they couldn't defeat Russia. The Japanese pulled one of the largest upsets in War history. So don't jump to conclusions who Christian Bastard.
Dude. You're exactly like very other 13 year old I'v ever met, including myself. you think you're smarter, or better, or more experienced or "mature". Guess what, you're not.
If I don't think I'm smarter than Stephen Hawking so I don't think I'm smarter than everybody. I don't think I'm a better fighter than Anderson Silva. So I don't think I'm better than everybody. Also don't think I'm more experienced than Misao Okawa. So your very wrong. Also, who invented the leaf blower fuckface.
Well you did say everybody. And that means all of the 7 billion people on Earth, including Other Animals. You should have said 1 year olds you Jizzbag Idiot. Also, there's no such thing as the average 13 year old. A 13 year old in North Korea is probably starving right know. A 13 year old in the USA is most likely Going to school ri
Well you did say everybody. And that means all of the 7 billion people on Earth, including Other Animals. You should have said 13 year old's you Jizzbag Idiot. Also, there's no such thing as the average 13 year old. A 13 year old in North Korea is probably starving right know. A 13 year old in the USA is most likely Going to school right know. So if you want to talk about the average 13 year old, you have to talk about the average 13 year old of a certain region, you remedial.
Dude, this guy's on my enemy list and I think you're being a bit harsh. Chill. Don't believe in God, so be it. He's also a bit of a chump, which is why he's on my enemy list, but the insult-cursing is a bit irrational. Just asking you to be a bit nicer. Be as critical as you want man, but seriously.
Basically the idea of Hell as Torment or Isolation goes like this:
Good people go to heaven. Sinners, those who spread Satan's work, go to hell... where Satan thanks them by spawn-killing them over and over and over in the worst ways beyond imagination? What?!
If that were the case, then Satan's playing Jail-Warden and torturer/executioner for the evil scumbags that go against God. That means that God and Satan are in cahoots if God throws bad guys for Satan to beat up in retaliation for sinning.
Realistically, Satan would pat a sinner on the back and tell them to prepare for war. Seriously. God punishes nobody.
But if God is timeless, he knows everything that was going to happen, so he knew that the devil was going to do this. Being that he is also all powerful and all good how could he allow an evil thing to exist? God choses for the devil to exist and this makes him evil.
Yep, so maybe he saw that the only way to get the best effect was by creating the worst cause...
Who knows?
i don't, i just believe i know. Noone knows anything, not even our own needs!
And about not knowing our own needs, this is what i mean. Lets say i go to a shoemaker and i tell him make me some boots and let me have the excess strips of leather from the boots.
Well, what if you died that night? You wouldnt need work boots you would need death slippers. So why didnt I just order the death slippers? Cuz idk
Not necessarily. Even if he allowed the devil to do what he wished to do how would that be any different than a parent allowing her rebellious child to do bad things? It's because the child will face punishment due to their own decisions.
When God first created Adam and Eve, he gave them a mind of free will. He easily could have said "you will obey me, and do as I wish" but then what would have been the point? He wanted them to do this of their own free will. They chose to disobey him. All evil in this world is created by humans themselves. God doesn't just punish us for sin, but also rewards us for good.
Because we still have a sinful nature and we are not doing anything to change it except by saying things like well why do i have to suffer for my ancestors?
God programmed me to break that law and punish me for it? How is that fair?
That's the thing, you were not "programmed." You freely chose sin, as do I, as does the other 7 billion of us. Animals are programmed and slaves to their nature and instincts. We are supposed to be above that. That is what everyone has been trying to tell you.
Free will isn't free will if every choice was know and thus chosen, by God at the point of creation. The only way you can say that we have free will is if God didn't foresee what his creations would do.
why does NOBODY understand what the fuck free will means???
Im not answering you until you give me the definition of free will and understand that god DOES NOT CONTROL our free will because that would be oppressive and thats what the devil does.
yeah, and the robber chose to put the man in such a position.
So the robber chose to go along with murder.
And yes, you are right the guy did choose to have himself die. If someone said give me your money or im going to kill you, then i havce a choice between life and death.
However, hell, is not a place we go to when we die. This physical dimension IS hell.
Why do you think life is shitty?
So we dont "Choose" to go to hell, but we do choose to notice or not notice the things that seem supernatural but we brush off as just a trick of the mind.
People do not send themselves to Hell. God created Hell, God created satan, and God created the demons. God is the one who sends people to Hell and God is the one who is responsible for pain and suffering. The manufacterer is always responsible for the product.
You really should learn about your own religion that you claim to follow, because you know nothing about it, apparently No true Scotsman and tell me how perfect you are.
no, i proved it, i said: go outside and do whatever you want to do because that is what free will is, if you cant step outside and do what you feel like doing, then i am lost for words as to how to help you
And I'm responding to your analogy as given in argument to support the original side that you have posted on. If your analogy's purpose was not in support of your stance to this debate question, I'm not sure why you posted it.
if it is in support of your original stance, then my refute is still valid.
It obvious you have yet to fully understand the basic principles behind the analogy. Your refute is nothing more than a misunderstanding of literary comprehension. I would, again, advise you to fully dive into the analogy to better understand it.
Or how about you actually rephrase it or explain further, because according to you I have most definitely failed to grasp your point. If you have an underlying point, then make it. We're not going to have a very productive debate if you keep "advising" that I reread and guess all the non-literal possibilities.
Fine, but I doubt you will accept the underlying concept of the analogy.
In practicality God is the supposed father figure to all his creation. In the parental sense a father and mother will teach their children what is right and what is wrong. Experience is the best teacher. As the famous proverb goes: You will learn more from things that happen to you in real life than you will from hearing about or studying things that happen to other people.. By following that the only way for a child to completely understand the consequences is to allow the child to make their own decisions and reap the consequences of their actions. Even if the being is omnipotent and omniscient the being is required to help anyone. In fact the best help would be to teach the child by experience. If the child does good then the child will receive good merits, but if the child does bad things it must suffer the consequences. God, a mother, and a father all punish their children for doing bad things. They have free will. If they falter they will learn from their mistake.
Does the analogy make anymore sense to you? Or must I elaborate on it further?
Thanks. And my original argument is still valid. It seems you have been misunderstanding the logic that omnipotence and omniscience bring.
Let's just focus on omnipotence.
The way you described how the child learns is mostly set in stone, it's a set method, a law of the universe if you will.
The problem is that if you are all powerful, well, there is really no other way to say it; you are all powerful. You have the ability to do anything. This means an omnipotent being has the ability to change how we learn, how we make decisions.
The way you describe God, a mother and a father is as if they're powerless to change how freewill works. Two out of three are, one; God (as omnipotent) is certainly capable.
Forgive me for the hostility. It seems I have misunderstood your logic. I was very headstrong so do forgive me for the utter foolishness I have shown you.
I agree, that if the deity is omnipotent then it can do anything, but does it have to? You may ask what is a more elaborate system? What if this is the greatest system we have to support free will? It seems that we tend to expect an omnipotent deity to fix something that the deity may not wish to be fixed.
The way you describe God, a mother and a father is as if they're powerless to change how freewill works.Â
That isn't the way I hoped to convey my interpretation of the parental style of God. He is omnipotent, but why should he change it? Can you give me a better method than the one we have now?
Forgive me for the hostility. It seems I have misunderstood your logic. I was very headstrong so do forgive me for the utter foolishness I have shown you.
Apology accepted. lol
I agree, that if the deity is omnipotent then it can do anything, but does it have to? You may ask what is a more elaborate system? What if this is the greatest system we have to support free will? It seems that we tend to expect an omnipotent deity to fix something that the deity may not wish to be fixed. That isn't the way I hoped to convey my interpretation of the parental style of God. He is omnipotent, but why should he change it? Can you give me a better method than the one we have now?
I want to acknowledge the refreshing sight of an argument I haven't seen before (though I have seen similar). So yay for showing me a new argument and expanding my observation even further. :)
Anyway, except that with the ability to do anything, would also allow for perfection. Perfection, as defined, would have no flaws. This being the best system, would mean it's not without flaw. Now normally when I bring this up, what else is brought up in dispute is the idea that it was without flaw, until humans (Adam and Eve) fucked that up. Just in case that's where you were headed, I'd also like to add that again, as an omnipotent being, he's capable of making a perfect system, with free will, without it being so fragile for us to mess it all up.
Essentially, what I'm arguing, is that he's capable of making up a world that defies our logic right now. Defies the paradox of a free will world without existing evil or chosen bad choices. Omnipotence allows for this possibility.
Simply because bad things happen do not mean the system is not perfect. Simply saying that evil exists and thus the world is flawed is illogical to the original intent of the creator. What if this system of free will is perfect in accordance to God? If God knows more than yiu then I would imagine that he knows what is best. If this is what he has chosen to be best then the system may infact be perfect.
However lets assume the system is not perfect. Why should the deity make it perfect? What does a human's opinion have in accordance to a god's opinion? Why must he make this system, that is in our opinion flawed, any better? Is he necessarily obligated to do so? Is it because God is supposed to be all-loving?
Let's assume God is all-loving. This means that he is infinitely good. If God operates on what he believes to be good then how is your opinion going to change his if you are inferior to him? Why must your bad viewpoint change his good viewpoint? I'm not saying that he is good, but in his own nature he has been stated to be good.
Simply because bad things happen do not mean the system is not perfect. Simply saying that evil exists and thus the world is flawed is illogical to the original intent of the creator. What if this system of free will is perfect in accordance to God? If God knows more than yiu then I would imagine that he knows what is best. If this is what he has chosen to be best then the system may infact be perfect.
Perfection, as I've stated, is without flaw. No one, absolutely no one should be able to find fault in it. Suggesting that it might be perfect in God's eyes is also suggesting that perfection would be subjective.... and then I think that defeats the purpose. If it's perfect, it would also be perceived as perfect by every mind capable of perceiving. It would be the one thing no one argues about.
However lets assume the system is not perfect. Why should the deity make it perfect? What does a human's opinion have in accordance to a god's opinion? Why must he make this system, that is in our opinion flawed, any better? Is he necessarily obligated to do so? Is it because God is supposed to be all-loving?
That, and because "bad" obviously involves negativity. If you could have a world absolutely free from negativity, while everyone still has free will as we know it today (they could choose evil, know the concept but just never choose to), still have all the "good" that would normally come from the "bad" and have the power to keep it this way for eternity... wouldn't you rather opt for the positive and "good-feeling" world?
Opting for the other makes the person seem sadistic.
Let's assume God is all-loving. This means that he is infinitely good. If God operates on what he believes to be good then how is your opinion going to change his if you are inferior to him? Why must your bad viewpoint change his good viewpoint? I'm not saying that he is good, but in his own nature he has been stated to be good.
I certainly do not believe that my viewpoint would change his, it's more so that it would change those that perceive him as all loving.
Hypothetically, if God is all-loving and this is the world he has to show for it, I'd look to see what other options are available, if any.
If it's perfect, it would also be perceived as perfect by every mind capable of perceiving. It would be the one thing no one argues about.
Not necessarily. This world, according to the christian doctrine, states that God created everything for him. I don't think God made the world perfect, otherwise it would be stated as "perfect" rather than "good".
Logically he may be incapable of making something that is perfect. He may only be able to make things that are below him since he is supposedly the one and true God. That's is a loose theory, but I think you may take a liking to it.
Opting for the other makes the person seem sadistic.
Indeed, I agree, but sadistic to whom? All of humanity? To God himself? If that which is below him says that he is sadistic how will that have any affect of him if he is perfect? If I follow my previous theory then this may be the best that it gets and he wishes for humanity to make itself a better place before he is required to intervene. This would be why he has a doctrine in the first place. He may want to reach out through the world by using humans. Like churches that dig wells in African countries or churches that feed starving Asian children.
Your last statement I agree with completely which is why I'm not going to bold it and respond to it.
Whatever he/she wants. Can you also explain why you had to bring up the freedom of speech? Never mind. I really don't want to debate with you on that subject.
You both are on my debate. i allow freedom of speech on my debates. I didnt used to but I do now. The fact that I have not banned you for calling me a "fucking idiot" is proof of that. Besides, Riahlize has valid points.
It is us who are causing all this. The sin in our soul causes suffering around us. Like for an instance, the rich are sometimes greedy and don't give to the poor. Well, of course not all rich woman and men are greedy. Also, we can't blame everything on God.
This stems from the beginning. The choice between The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and The Tree of Life was both literal and symbolic. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil represents relying on our own mind, thoughts, and feelings while the Tree of Life represents relying on God's mind, thoughts, and feelings. When Eve partook of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil she was relying on her own thoughts and mind and is why she was so easily tricked. This is also Adam's fault because he also failed in his role to protect Eve from any and all danger. Eve then failed in her role as a "lifesaver" (more accurate translation than "help-meet") and in fact help give Adam death by handing it to Adam to eat.
From then on we have had to use our own knowledge rather than God's with only his creation and a few divinely inspired books to guide our knowledge. The question "how can God allow evil" is seperate from the "punish[ing] [of] humans and angels".
Evil is is in two separate categories: natural and moral. God is the direct cause of natural evil. God is not the direct cause of moral evil (Galatians 2:17) but is indirectly responsible (Isaiah 45:7). God uses both kinds of evil for our benefit although may times we don't see it as such (Isaiah 45:32-3).
God does not punish us for natural evil because we are not the cause of it . Does, however, judge our reaction to natural evil and moral evil as well because we are the cause of moral evil. Because God is not the cause of moral evil, he can rightly judge us as such.
I liked where you were going, until you started talking about natural evil. There is no such thing. God is incapable of doing anything that could be accurately called "evil". I think that is an extremely dangers miss-characterization. Every disaster that strikes humanity is justice from God; effects of living in a fallen world we freely chose every day. We are the direct cause of this "natural evil." What God chooses to do is beyond characterization of "good" or "bad". Everything that is sanctioned by God (loving your neighbor, paying your taxes, hurricanes, fire, nuclear fission) is "good". Everything not sanctioned by God (homosexuality, theft, cruelty, sin) is "bad". Reality is, the only thing in the universe that is "bad" or "evil" is the choices of man and Satan.
In addition, your biblical sources do not say anything close to what you are saying.
I had an epiphany several months ago that I believe answers this question. I asked myself, "Is it possible to sin in Heaven?" I realize there will be no sin in Heaven, but is that because God zaps our free will from us when we enter the gate? (unlikely) Or is it just because Heaven will be free of temptations and everyone who makes it there will never make the deliberate choice to sin... If it is the latter... to make Heaven a success the saints would have to be chosen in such a way that they all have an element of humility and submission... I believe that is what is happening now, as to enter Heaven, all you really have to do is accept salvation through Jesus.
I believe this situation mirrors what happened in the Garden of Eden. It was a place free of temptation, except Adam and Eve had to make a simple decision to be humble and submit to the one and only law we were given. Adam and Eve failed. Later, when the nation of Israel was given an equal fellowship and closeness with God, living under his direct guidance. We still failed, demonstrating our futility to try to earn our way into God's presence through obedience alone. I believe the entire purpose of the Old Testament is to show us what is just, and what isn't, and that there is no way we can follow the law in the fallen world. Forgiveness of our sins is necessary to enter Heaven, so we have to again make a simple choice to accept it through Jesus.
Imagine someone who goes through the human experience, falls into sin and hits rock bottom as we all do. If he is the type of person who acknowledges their sins and seeks God's forgiveness, do you think he would eventually "eat the apple" if he were suddenly taken back to the Garden of Eden? Isn't that what God wanted from us in the first place; just to live out our lives in the Garden without breaking the one law?
When we do that, God acquires what he was after in our Creation. Souls who successfully reflects his image and will not turn to sin when in his presence, will be granted that presence. Those who would have made the same mistake Adam and Eve made won't be among us any more. In other words, the grain will be separated from the chaff. Judgement is necessary for mankind to do what we were made to do in the beginning.
I concede my line of thinking requires some assumptions that are not spelled out in scripture, but how it all comes together makes a lot of sense to me.
Look, honey. Whoever created this debate. You really don't understand. Okay, what you need to hear is the gospel.God is love. He is. But he also gave us free will. He didn't want us to be robots, like
All powerful God:HEY YOU!DO THIS!
unworthy human:yes, of course, without question, my lord
NO he didnt want us to be like that.So he gave us freedom to choose. to either follow him, or to disobey Him and suffer the consequences. He allowed us to choose, you see. and he allowed us to choose to do the wrong thing.(this is, i guess, what u mean by God allows evil) dont get me wrong: he does not like it when we choose wrongly. in fact it makes him extremely sad. but he allowed it to happen.and it did. adam and eve, from the very beginning, chose wrongly, therefore they had to suffer the consequences and be sent away from the garden of eden.(this must be what u mean by punish)
and humans continued to sin. the consequence for sin, u see, is death. But God didnt want us to suffer eternal death in hell. he loved us way too much. but he couldnt just be like, okay, so i love you, so no one has to die. he is a just and fair God.so instead of us dying, he gave us his son, Jesus,who is holy and sinless,to die in ALL places instead. and Jesus did.
Thats why, if u believe that Jesus died for u and saved u from an eternal death, and u confess that to God, u can have this eternal life.
