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It depends what you mean by "win". The answer could easily be superman, who could use his super speed to take Hulk and fly him into outer space before he could even react. But if you mean "kill" I think the win would go to Hulk. Hulk can regenerate from any damage superman would be able to deal to him, making him essentially invulnerable (in addition to the fact that it would take a massively destructive attack in order to damage him in the first place due to his extreme durability). Then, he would just keep growing stronger as he gets angrier until he eventually wins. Superman, on the other hand, can be killed by pure force. In the Death of Superman comic, he is killed by Doomsday, with nothing but blunt force trauma (and physical exhaustion). This is a good reference point considering Doomsday is very similar to Hulk. He has super strength and durability, and throughout the comic is said to grow stronger as the battle goes on, but at a much lower (physically observable) rate than the Hulk. He single handedly defeated the Justice League, and killed Superman, even without Hulks regeneration. He and Superman kill each other but if it was Hulk, he would've been able to survive due to his super healing. There are, though, many inconsistencies in both the DC and Marvel universe. The common argument is that Superman is much more powerful, and these powers are limited (especially in movies) only to make an interesting movie/comic, but the same could be said of Hulk.
Superman was created with the purpose of having no limits (I dont count kryptonite and a limit). The battle would go on for a long time, but eventually the Hulk will give in. Superman can still continue.
Two problems actually, Superman when he was first invited is vastly different that what he's become. He was first invited, really fast, really strong, a really good jumper. Those attributes were then upgraded, faster than light. Stronger than so and so many suns. Able to fly. Then he went through what I believe is called the golden age of comics, where he was basically limitless, with a power to match any and every situation, just like Batman's utility belt. Then his authors came to their senses, and toned him down to only being slightly stronger than whatever villain he was about to face. For instance, being able to defeat darkseid with a little JL help, or being able to defeat Doomsday, but quickly going into a coma afterwards.
What this tells me clearly is that Superman is not limitless, he's just crazy strong. I'll agree that he's smart as all hell, and most likely could outsmart the Hulk a few good times out of ten, but I don't think it'd be enough to win every match for him. That coupled with his obvious limits, in a pure muscle fist fight against the Hulk, I see him losing more times than winning.
Actually, no. There has been times where superman has overcome kryptonite. If we are raking the modern hulk and modern superman and facing them against each other Superman will always win. They have made superman the most over powered character in comic history.
Your argument is using the old superman, which is fine and all, but I am focused on the modern day superman. This superman would destroy the hulk. Also how can the hulk out smart someone who thinks much faster than he does? That wouldn't make sense. The hulk wouldn't win against superman. Superman has no practical limitations.
Bullshit! Superman can't overcome kryptonite. He may have knocked it out someone's hands before he became too weak to, or wore a protective suit that kept him from feeling it's affects, but those are the same as overcoming.
Superman's limited to only ever being just strong enough to defeat his next for, and usually with the help of the whole JL. However what this says to me is that superman for all his strength is not invincible he's just extremely powerful. Hulk also starting out at extremely powerful, would easily be a match for Supes, up until Hulk becomes angry enough to take supes down.
Look it up for yourself. In a few situations he has overcome kryptonite. When I say overcame I mean he overcame. Solar energy fueled his cells and boom kryptonite wasn't a problem for him. He also lifted an island of kryptonite and threw it into space. Don't tell me that's not overcoming. Now if you don't want to count that then cool, but he has done this in the comics too. You can take almost any Hulk you want. Hulk is piss poor weak compared to Superman.
Superman's limited to only ever being just strong enough to defeat his next for, and usually with the help of the whole JL.
That's because comic creator have to place limitations on him or the comic would be boring, but if you just have plain Superman against the Hulk he would win. The man has punched dimensions apart. The Hulk will never be able to do that.
However what this says to me is that superman for all his strength is not invincible he's just extremely powerful.
Superman is practically invincible since he can overcome kryptonite.
Hulk also starting out at extremely powerful, would easily be a match for Supes, up until Hulk becomes angry enough to take supes down.
Basically, if Superman punches the Hulk the Hulk wouldn't even see if and would literally be destroyed. Hulk wouldn't exist anymore. Like I said, Hulk is weak when compared to Superman.
Okay so kryptonite isn't a weakness, why doesn't he just always overcome it then? Why ever let it take an effect on him? Since it's literally always the fate of the universe at stake if he does. Why even mention that it's a weakness of his, if he can overcome it in certain situations? Why not just find what made him able to overcome it, and force those results all the time?
Superman's limit imposed by comic creators (mind me for mention them) is the exact reason this fight wouldn't be over in a snap. Leaving the authors alone for a second, logic would dictate that Superman's not as strong as he feats let on, in the beginning of his fights. At the very least he must work up to that level. With that in mind, he won't be hitting Hulk right off the bat with the punch of a thousand suns exploding, he'll have to build up to that. My whole argument being that in building up to it, Hulk will win.
Practically invincible is not invincible, as I explained above.
That video does not invalidate my argument, it's actually included in my argument assuming he can get to that point. In a sense he has to warm up, before being able to unleash a blow as powerful as he is capable of. Getting right out of bed he won't be lifting any islands into outer space, he'll need to do a little God mode exercise before that.
Okay so kryptonite isn't a weakness, why doesn't he just always overcome it then? Why ever let it take an effect on him? Since it's literally always the fate of the universe at stake if he does. Why even mention that it's a weakness of his, if he can overcome it in certain situations? Why not just find what made him able to overcome it, and force those results all the time?
Money. Companies have to make money. Can't have Superman going God-mode everyday. Gotta make things interesting every now and then.
Superman's limit imposed by comic creators (mind me for mention them) is the exact reason this fight wouldn't be over in a snap. Leaving the authors alone for a second, logic would dictate that Superman's not as strong as he feats let on, in the beginning of his fights. At the very least he must work up to that level. With that in mind, he won't be hitting Hulk right off the bat with the punch of a thousand suns exploding, he'll have to build up to that. My whole argument being that in building up to it, Hulk will win.
No. Just no. If Superman literally wants to kill the Hulk he can punch him damn near anytime. Hulk would be dead. This "the authors wont allow it" is crap. That's like saying Sandman can't beat Spiderman because the authors won't allow it. We know that sandman can kill Spiderman if these two were to face off. Can't kill sand.
Practically invincible is not invincible, as I explained above.
Which I why I keep saying "practically". How are you not catching on?
That video does not invalidate my argument, it's actually included in my argument assuming he can get to that point.
By time the Hulk even becomes the Hulk Superman would have punched him. That invalidates you. Hulk cannot stop that. He would ln't even be the Hulk. Let's say the Hulk jumps him. Superman blows him away with his super breath. The he punches him. Literally that punch end Hulk everytime. A kick or even a full tackle would do the same. Hulk cannot win.
In a sense he has to warm up, before being able to unleash a blow as powerful as he is capable of. Getting right out of bed he won't be lifting any islands into outer space, he'll need to do a little God mode exercise before that.
I love these excuses. Literally just take your most powerful hulk and the most powerful Superman. Hulk would die everytime. Superman is too fast. He is too strong. He is practically a God. Superman doesn't "warm up". He just deals with it. Have you seen Man of Steel? Do you remember him stretching before fighting? No. There is no point. He can just start of doing what he wants.
Let's steer clear of the comic book creators could we. That leads to some bad arguments.
If superman wants to kill any of his villains, why doesn't he just do that? He doesn't because as I said, the comics would lead you to believe he has to work up to that level of strength.
Yes you said practically, I also said practically...
These 'by the time' arguments of yours, having Superman quickly end the battle before it begins, are being omitted simply because they don't happen. Ever. Superman never starts off that strong. He always has to build up to those levels where he's doing the things you speak of.
The most power isn't the normal. As for the most powerful hulk, that doesn't exist, as you know, he gets stronger with rage, so that'll be infinite so long as their is someone to kill.
Let's steer clear of the comic book creators could we. That leads to some bad arguments.
Then you say
superman wants to kill any of his villains, why doesn't he just do that? He doesn't because as I said, the comics would lead you to believe he has to work up to that level of strength.
What? So use the comics, but don't use the comics? I don't think that's how it goes. Seriously, stop making this longer than it has to be.
These 'by the time' arguments of yours, having Superman quickly end the battle before it begins, are being omitted simply because they don't happen. Ever. Superman never starts off that strong. He always has to build up to those levels where he's doing the things you speak of.
Yet, he can. Why would the comic book creators make him fight like that? They would make no money. I am nearly done arguing with you. Just take your strongest Hulk against the strongest Superman. Superman can win instantaneously. Why? Because he has the ability to do so. Why doesn't he do it? Then the comic would be boring. Use some sense. Don't tell me to omit the creator of the comics and then use the comic when the creators created the comics in the first place.
The most power isn't the normal. As for the most powerful hulk, that doesn't exist, as you know, he gets stronger with rage, so that'll be infinite so long as their is someone to kill.
Rage is irrelevant. One punch and he is dead. Simply as that. I'm finished here. You seriously are just coming up with whatever you can to make Superman weaker. Good day.
I said steer clear of the creators, i should have used the word authors that was an err on my part.
Rage is not irrelevant, rage is Hulk's power. One punch and he's dead, you say. Why has superman not done that to all of his villains? I mean maybe not nesscarily killing them, but ending the fight quickly and with no mess. Just super speed put them to sleep, and carry them to a jail cell all before the villain even has the neuron fire to get the idea to run away or do something else stupid? I mean surely he could have done it to one of the way lower level villains, like a simple mugger, or maybe lex who always manages to get enough time to reveal his kryptonite. Hmm seems odd to me, that even though you say Superman can just do that whenever he wants, he never does, and always ends up in some predicament that could have just been avoided had he super speed knocked out the opponent at the start of the fight, like he clearly has the ability to. All this oddness could be cleared up if supes couldn't just do that at the start of the fight for some reason we may not be entirely sure of... like I've been saying.
If the writers wouldn't let Superman forget that he can move and think at light speed, then Hulk's got big hurdles to overcome. I don't care how mad he is, he can't smash what he can't hit. And yeah, the Hulk is fast, but at best he's maybe speeding Koenigsegg fast not light speed fast.
Plus, Supes has a very powerful long range attack, his heat vision, which is said to be at least as hot as the sun.
Of course, if writers wrote Supes properly, Doomsday would never have killed him....
I know this much about it. It is as hot as the sun, because it's basically the sun's energy inside him. I also know that because it's that energy, he can't just go around using it willy nilly, or he risks running out of said energy.
What I'm getting at is this: If his heat vision is fast enough to get to Hulk's heart before Hulk can heal, you've got a point, but if it's not, he won't be able to rely on it for very long, before he has to go recharge.
Superman pretty much never has to recharge unless he gets mortally wounded. You ever hear of him not able to be super at night or during an eclipse. No, although that would make him a more interesting character.
As far as how he would use it, yeah, he could just blast out his heart, but assuming his morality is normal, he would probably mainly use his blasts to keep hulk at bay or wear him down before flying him off to somewhere totally deserted, pummeling him into unconsciousness, then taking Bruce Banner into custody.
When he fought doomsday, in his aptly named doomsday movie, the sheer force of that ass whooping, left him in pretty much a coma, and he had to rest for quite a while, while constantly sitting in sunlight, and had to wear a special suit to absorb some extra sunlight on the way to the battle. It's comic book fact that supes needs the sun to go on fighting, it just depends how much fighting, and or how much sunlight he needs.
What I'm asking is of you know just how fast he can shoot, those lasers, and if that speed is enough to kill Hulk before he can heal, or before Supes runs out of energy from using the lasers for too long?
The movie isn't canonical. Even if we do count it (because if I remember correctly something really similar DID occur in the comic that was based on;
A)- Watch the end again. It's not necessarily that he's worn out. he's back in the action right after. He's worried he may just have killed hundreds of beings to save his cousin. THAT was why he was kneeling, because he might has just committed a massacre.
When he fought doomsday, in his aptly named doomsday movie, the sheer force of that ass whooping, left him in pretty much a coma, and he had to rest for quite a while, while constantly sitting in sunlight, and had to wear a special suit to absorb some extra sunlight on the way to the battle.
Yeah, remember when I was earlier mentioning how Superman only needs to recharge when he has been mortally wounded? Yeah, that is what I was talking about. My point is, neither Doomsday or Hulk should be able to do that kind of damage to Superman. They can't catch him.
As far as how fast his heat vision travels? Not sure. They aren't lasers, so it might not be the speed of light. But almost everything else about him can happen at light speed, so maybe that too. Either way, IMHO Hulk should not be able to heal that fast. Modern writers have WAY over powered him. But if He was truly trying to kill Hulk, then the same kind of blast he used on the Doomsday clones in that clip should do the trick. The only way this battle is difficult for Superman is if Superman is at full morality. Knocking Hulk out might be harder than killing him these days.
So ultimately your argument boils down to, Superman's writers would write him in a way to beat the Hulk, and the Hulk's writers shouldn't write him in a way to defeat superman?
I know that's a great over simplification, but I don't feel it's wrong.
As for the context of the fight, I assumed it'd be a full out clash to the death, with nothing but their planets and lives at stake. Superman going ham, and Hulk going ham, and my money being on Hulk, because his feats show him 'hulking out' and taking down foes who seem unbeatable at the time, until he gets his hands on him. Because the way his powers are explained to work, show him being as strong as he wants, not because the writers gave him too much leeway, but because his anger is literally unstoppable. This being opposed to superman, who is often times made to just be the muscle of the group, and when fighting alone, is only ever so much stronger than his foes.
I'd say in a bare knuckles match, no morality on, or yes to morality on it doesn't change much, the Hulk would become angry enough with his feeble blows being stopped by supes in a typically condescending way, as is his style, so much so that he gets just pissed enough to do some damage. This keeps up long and enough, and supes will be down to the level he was at when he finally bested Doomsday, meanwhile ultra rage hulk, is getting angrier by the moment, at this guy still being alive, until eventually he tears him in half as he's been known to do to people stronger than steel. As far as touching supes goes, I do blame comics just like you do, comics slow him to speed of his enemies, or make his speed some how non viable in battle, because he's always touched by enemies, super or non super.
No, my argument boils down to writers conveniently forget powers and feats to add dramatic tension. If Superman can fly into a firefight and catch every bullet out of the air without anyone seeing his red butt, then yeah, he can dodge a few right hooks from a guy whose never demonstrated such a feat. We don't get to see this in real world boxing matches because real people are more evenly matched. But if you took two guys, and one can think and move at light speed (not to mention fly with better control and agility than a hummingbird) and the other can't, who is realistically going to be landing punches on the other?
I can accept that Hulk is portrayed as more powerful now than he was when I was growing up, but Superman hasn't taken a giant power drop in that time, and speedsters always have the advantage over non-speedsters.
As for the context of the fight, I assumed it'd be a full out clash to the death, with nothing but their planets and lives at stake.
The author probably should have been more clear, but I don't get why people make that assumption. Having them act in character is better representation of how such a match would actually go down if these were real people. Both of these guys will kill if they have to, but neither go out of their way to rip the heads off strangers. Why should we expect them to do so just because their companies are rivals. How many times could Superman have crushed Luthor's head by now?
being stopped by supes in a typically condescending way,
One second your are trying to get Superman to act out of character, the next you want him to behave in some stereotyped fashion? Get consistent.
the Hulk would become angry enough
That's a cop out answer that ignores the fact that Hulk OFTEN gets knocked out before he gets to that point, often by people who aren't in Superman's strength range and can't deliver 100 beatings a second like ol Supey could. If this IS a death battle, than old Supes isn't going to hold back and take unnecessary risks to try and talk him down like he normally does. He's going to deliver a barrage of punches that could each crack a continent in half and simultaneously keep blasting at Hulk's neck until his head flies off. Hulk has no real ranged attack aside from throwing crap or his "super clap"; Superman could easily dodge the former and withstand the later. Given a long enough fight, Hulk's strength will eventually supercede superman's, but that's going to take a LOT of anger, and a guy like Superman has absolutely no incentive to just stand their and let Hulk pound on him like a toddler trying to get grandpa's attention. Even with Hulk's upgrades, he isn't in Superman's class. Very few characters are.
As far as touching supes goes, I do blame comics just like you do, comics slow him to speed of his enemies, or make his speed some how non viable in battle, because he's always touched by enemies, super or non super.
Most the time it is dumb writers (or maybe dumb audiences), but we don't have to play that dumb.
I have to address this point first. When arguing comics I try to stay off the topic of the authors, because that's just way too easy. (Unless it's Batman. Batman always wins, no matter what, no argument). That said, it must be taken into account for this battle that even though supes has his speed that lets him just walk through a barrage of bullets without one even so much as scraping his hair, he never utilizes it in battle. So it can be assumed that he wouldn't utilize it in this battle.
Now from the top.
I used the crazy battle brawl scenario instead of the in character scenario because it's the one I'm used to seeing more often, and it gives supes more of a chance. However, this scenario doesn't take away from the characters being themselves, it just adds an edge to the fight. One that's drastic, desperate, and blood thirsty.
I said supes would act in a condescending way because that's just somethign he demonstrates. As I said above, he can be blood thirsty and in character. I'm speaking specifically of the films, but I don't doubt a comic out there would back this up, supes has been shown when he has the upper hand in a fight, to not act as if Earth depends on him winning, but instead to show off a bit more. For instance his 'planet of cardboard' speech. When he was fighting doomsday, he thought he had the upper hand, so instead of throwing lighting fast punches, he walked casually up to him almost as if to brag that he had already won, and laid hands on him in a way that demonstrates cockiness. Instead of attempting to dodge, or redirect attacks, he would simply grab fists out of the air, slowly and deliberately all the while talking about basically how this fight is already won.
Now apply that to his fight with the hulk, and I see one uber enraged hulk, getting madder by the second over this head case talking shit while whooping his butt.
Now down to the argument about Hulk getting the time to get angry enough to win. I'll admit I took some liberties there, I just don't believe Hulk is weak enough in base form, to simply be one shot by even an enraged Superman. He's survived some pretty incredible things. The feats don't give enough of an answer on whether or not he could survive Supes' infinity mass punch, I guess. Making this fight at least go either way before he gets mad enough.
Well, unless those gamma-irradiated cells in the Hulk synthesize organic Kryptonite, I don't think his rage will ever grow strong enough to overcome the Man of Steel.
Apparently I am the only ( proud) geek on create debate (lol), but I will go superman! even though I am a marvel fan, I think Superman would have the edge in agility, mobility and smarts. Strength wise and endurance wise they are probably pretty even. Supermans eye beams and super breath would be irrelevant, completely ineffective against the big green guy. So, it would basically come down to who could outpunch who, and could superman, at some point in the fight, outsmart the mindless hulk.
Calling yourself a geek and completely committing the fact that Hulk is no longer mindless. The latest incarnations of him all have Bruce more in control of the Hulk. That's not to say he won't do some irrational things out of anger, but to say he's mindless is just neglecting Banner's control all together.
With out smarting him as one possible method of winning, I'll give you that point. However if he can't manage to out smart him 10/10 (which I highly doubt he could) it then comes down to punch vs punch, and I don't Supes has what it takes to best the Hulk.
Ok ok. Well done, point conceded. I highly doubt Superman could outsmart the hulk anyway. Supe is pretty much a smash and bash kind of guy. His ability to fly, and attack on the fly would earn him a few shots on hulk, but I would imagine the 2nd, 3rd or 4th time it happened hulk would be ready for it and give superman a pretty good shot.
I'm going to go with superman; superman has the ability to fly and survive in space, and the capability to exert enough force to physically move the planet. The hulk, on the other hand, is unable to fly, and while he can hold his breath for a long time, does have to breathe eventually.
I don't think that either actually has the ability to cause any actual damage to one another, but superman could survive the destruction of the earth, and hulk could not.
Now, whether superman would be willing to sacrifice the earth to beat the hulk is another matter entirely, though I imagine a pitched battle between the two of them would likely devastate the planet ANYWAY.
the ONLY ways to kill Superman is to a) Kryptonite (duh) b) block out the sun (that's how Doomsday killed Superman) and c) lots of magical elements like lightning (Thor defeated superman in the marvel vs dc crossover with his magic hammer Mjölnir) Hulk has no kyrptonite, cant block out the sun, and is not magical. so, by basic deductive reasoning, Hulk does not posses any of superman's weaknesses, so he cannot defeat him. (plus superman prime is basically omnipotent, so there's that)
Superman and hulk may have the ability to gain infinite strength , speed , durability , etc . You need to consider at base superman is stronger therefore superman could win before the hulk got mad enough to gain enough power to win . Also , superman is constantly gaining more strength through solar energy while the hulk needs to get mad but afterwards he goes back to base .
