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Debate Info

21
55
They DO. Who can blame 'em? They should FORGET the past
Debate Score:76
Arguments:64
Total Votes:81
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Argument Ratio

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 They DO. Who can blame 'em? (14)
 
 They should FORGET the past (31)

Debate Creator

excon(5818) pic



I'm a Jew. I STILL hate Nazis. Always will. Why SHOULDN'T black people HATE the white man?

They DO. Who can blame 'em?

Side Score: 21
VS.

They should FORGET the past

Side Score: 55
2 points

Judaism and nazi beliefs are nothing but beliefs. White and black are races. You can't change your race, which is why we should try to help blacks. Don't forget the past, just work to make up for it. As for nazis, I'm a Jew and I hate them. I always will.

Side: They DO. Who can blame 'em?

Well, let's just look at your logic. Democrats opposed abolishing slavery. So why shouldn't black people hate the Democratic Party? Democrats enforced the trail of tears, so why shouldn't Native Americans hate the Democratic Party? Democrats put the Japanese in camps during WW2, so why shouldn't the Japanese hate the Democratic Party?

Side: They DO. Who can blame 'em?
mrcatsam(482) Disputed
1 point

I swear, your history is wrong. Democrats did oppose abolishing slavery, but at the time democrats were conservative. They were today's equivalent of Republicans. So, in fact, people who thought like you opposed abolishing slavery. I would be a liberal Republican.

Read up about Lyndon Johnson and the effect he had on the political parties and then come back and talk.

Side: They should FORGET the past
2 points

Is that right? During the times of the KKK running the party, Democrats referred to themselves by the word...liberals...

Side: They DO. Who can blame 'em?
2 points

People are entitled to feel whatever they want and to exercise their freedom of expression. If they want to hate forever then that's up to them.

But what they're NOT entitled to do is violate someone else's rights, whether it be through violence or job descriminiation or housing discrimination, etc.

Personally although I'm a white man I think of myself first and foremost as me. And if someone comes to talk to me through a perspective of hate because I am white I will counter it with my humanity and individuality. And if they still want to hate me after that then that's a reflection on their own sad state of humanity and individuality.

Side: They DO. Who can blame 'em?
1 point

Although many white people can argue they never did anything racism I'd still a huge problem throughout the world you can't possibly tell somone to forgive and forget somthing like that however we shouldn't hate all white people because that is unfair to them.

Side: They DO. Who can blame 'em?
9 points

Your hate, which is not indicative of most Jewish people, will eat away at you like a cancer and will harm you significantly more than the rich, clever Germans who have established themselves as the powerhouse of Europe.

It is only shallow minded intellectual dwarfs who enjoy forever wallowing in the quiremire of historical events.

Most Jews are too clever not to recognise that it was the deranged butchers of the psychopathic Nazi regime that perpetrated the inhuman crime of establishing the concentration/extermination camps and not Hans or Gertrude Schmidt.

Absolutely no good can ever come from harbouring hatred and thoughts of revenge as we can observe in Northern Ireland where the ''Loyalists''( protestants ) and Nationalists, ( Catholics) have been slaughtering each other and destroying their homeland for 100s of years.

The Yanks, black or white should be above aping the national death of the Irish, view historical atrocities with unemotional reason and move on.

Side: They should FORGET the past
6 points

Being a Nazi is a mindset. Being white is a physical trait. The two are not one and the same. A person CHOOSES to be a Nazi, they do not choose the color skin they have. I don't blame a Jew for hating a Nazi and a person who is a Nazi chose that life of hatred and bigotry. But a black person hating a white one for the color is their skin is wrong, same goes for a white person hating a black person because of skin color.

Side: They should FORGET the past
4 points

Because hate is a waste of time , what does hate achieve ?

I'm Irish born and bred , historically my people have been treated horrendously by other nations it's all in the past done and dusted and a part of distant history why constantly drag it up ?

Side: They should FORGET the past
excon(5818) Disputed
2 points

Hello D:

I don't hate because it's the smart thing to do.. I hate because MY GUT tells me to hate. Furthermore, it's NOT a distant memory for me.. I was born in 1943 when part of my family were being MURDERED by the Nazis..

No, the past is NOT done.. And, IF we forget about it, we're liable to repeat it.. THAT'S why I drag it up.

excon

Side: They DO. Who can blame 'em?
Dermot(4989) Disputed
1 point

But the people you hate are mostly dead , the past is indeed done and dusted and your hate is only damaging yourself and no one else

Side: They should FORGET the past
1 point

Sniff sniff. Trail of Tears ring a bell? Thank you Mr. Jackson. We like the pretty land in the middle of the country Mr. Jackson. Thanks for the 1,000 mile hike Mr. Jackson. Where's our mommies and daddies Mr. Jackson? Where are our kids Mr. Jackson?

Side: They should FORGET the past
marcusmoon(469) Clarified
1 point

Look, I get it if you cannot help it, but the lesson of the Holocaust and similar events is how intrinsically disastrous it is to hate based on category (as opposed to individual actions that define and display actual character).

The Holocaust was caused by people putting themselves and others into categories, (German, Jew, Gypsy, Homosexual) and then pretending that these classifications justified making assumptions based on these categories, hating based on these categories, assigning comparative values to lives and dignity based on some category assigned without reference to individual behaviors.

If you think this means Blacks should hate Whites, or that the categories like Black, White, etc. are meaningful, relevant or constructive, then you have gained nothing by remembering the Holocaust. You are dragging up bitterness in a way that makes repeating it more likely, not less likely.

Side: They DO. Who can blame 'em?
marcusmoon(469) Clarified
1 point

IF we forget about it, we're liable to repeat it.. THAT'S why I drag it up.

Remembering is not good enough all by itself. You have to learn the lesson of what you remember if you want to keep the same awful disasters from repeating.

The lesson is that hatred is destructive, and makes people into monsters, and foolish ones, at that.

Side: They DO. Who can blame 'em?
2 points

I totally agree with you, but alas there some people who can only survive by feeding on the hatred they obtain from raking up the dying embers of yesteryear.

Hatred is all that keeps them alive and is their sole driving force.

Side: They should FORGET the past
FromWithin(6061) Disputed
1 point

Yes I agree, and then we have bigots such as Obama and yourself STILL talking about Crusades a thousand years ago, or Old testament Jewish law, to try and ridicule Christians today.

Listen to your words and MOVE ON! Hate is a waste of time!

Side: They DO. Who can blame 'em?
1 point

Blaming Obama now is the equivalent to "It's Bush's fault". That said, the crusades are an annoying invalid argument made by lefties to downplay modern terrorism. Also, Muslims raided Europe for slaves countless times before the crusades.

Side: They should FORGET the past
2 points

A large part of it is not even about race any more. Its about coming up with more and more abstract ways to verify each other among peers while at the same time provoking the opposition. If I can say something which my opponents are guaranteed to find offensive, while at the same time having a clever and abstract way for it to make sense to my peer group then I'm a winner. I've managed to annoy my opponent while hi fiving my peers for our superior understanding. All of this is the art of the bullshit.

Side: They should FORGET the past
1 point

Boz,

I wonder if that annoyed our opponent. I bet it did.

HIGH FIVE!!

Seriously, though, I think you captured the truth about how some folks approach politics, social media, and general debate.

Even so, I think that it unfairly discounts a lot of truly legitimate attempts to work through differing values and ideas, and social conflicts.

Side: They should FORGET the past
bozwallocks(44) Clarified
1 point

Hi Marcus

When the president of the United States is a bullshit artist you know that the phenomenon has reached majority levels.

Sadly, the kind of genuine discourse you mention is few and far between. Even the more civil discussions tend to adhere to ideology in a closed minded way. Rhetoric dressed up us discourse to convince without understanding.

Side: They DO. Who can blame 'em?
2 points

People shouldn't take responsibility for their ancestor's actions. If we all did, the Italians should kiss everyone's ass for enslaving them (the Romans), the Persians should say sorry for conquering the Mediterranean (Persian Empire), the Spanish should apologise for toppling the Aztecs and all Europeans should apologise for massacring Jews and Arabs during the Crusades (and vice versa).

Pointing the finger for things that people's ancestors did is in no way good. Or productive. Now bow down and pay your reparations for what your great great great great grandfather did to my great great great grandfather many years ago!

Side: They should FORGET the past
2 points

Nazis were a product of their chosen ideology. White people are a product of pigment. Ask a Nazi today and he will defend the Holocaust. Ask a white person today and he is unlikely to defend slavery.

You can't oppress by virtue of your race. You can support oppression or be oppressive based on your ideology.

Side: They should FORGET the past
Gypsee(260) Clarified
2 points

I completely agree that the nazi/white comparison is incorrect. But I just wanted to note slavery isn't the grudge most black people are holding today. I think the days of segregation hold most of the hate black people are feeling. The kinda legal lynchings, aggressions, beatings, killings of people based on their color isn't some old thing. Segregation ended in ´64. A lot of people today know how that was and still have that fear of white people. Also there are some white people who lived in that era as well. So maybe most white people don't support slavery but there are quite few that don't view black people as their equals. But as time advanced most of those leftover black and white people from that era are dying. So with time, that type of issue should decrease just like the acceptance of slavery diminished with time.

Side: They DO. Who can blame 'em?
1 point

Interesting and efficient way to put it. It is much appreciated.

Side: They should FORGET the past
1 point

It'd be like you as a Jew hating modern Germans for what "they did". The reason being that no white people alive in the U.S. today have ever legally owned slaves. If it makes sense to hate unrelated people for past events caused by dead people within their "group", this justifies whites hating Muslims for the Barbary slave trade. I don't condone such an opinion however it logically follows if it's appropriate to hate a group that oppressed ones group in the past.

Side: They should FORGET the past
2 points

You make a cogent point.

However, you left out an important corollary:

If it were logically justified hate modern White people for what other White people did in the distant past, then it would be logically justified to hate one modern Black person for crimes and violence committed by other Black people in the very recent past.

That would be ridiculous and foolish.

Side: They should FORGET the past
1 point

1) Its shameful to call yourself Jewish when you thought the Jewish place of worship was called a "temple".

2) Nazi is a fascist organisation, an organisation that is banned in Germany now. Being white is a ethnicity.

Side: They should FORGET the past

You are showing a SERIOUS lack of intellect not to see the enormous difference between your two scenarios.

This is the problem with Liberals. They blame the gun rather than the hateful killer behind the trigger.

Racists and bigots lump people by skin color or religion and paint them all with the same brush.

If Black people want to hold onto hate for what some White men did in the past, go for it but it will only succede in hodling themselves hostage to that hate.

If they want to hate White people today for nothng more than being white, then they are racist idiots.

If they want to hate true racists today, be my guest. Democrats use these fringe racist groups and try to paint Trump and othe white repubicans as being the same.

Let me repeat.... IDIOTS!

Side: They should FORGET the past
1 point

The white people walking around living their everyday life , don't own slaves . You shouldn't hate someone for something they didn't even do .

Side: They should FORGET the past
1 point

A - Regarding racial identity, compare skin tones and facial features of most American Blacks to a range of African Blacks.

1-The lighter skin tones in American Blacks, and the various European facial features present in the gene pool clearly indicate that a very large percentage of American Black people are descended from White people. This makes these people White (in addition to being Black). For example, Barak Obama is White (White mom), in addition to being Black (Black dad).

2-This policy of hating White people, therefore, would necessitate hating Barak Obama, Beyoncé, Morgan Freeman, Tyra Banks, and probably half or more of the "Black" people you know personally.

B - Regarding Hatred related to slavery, most White Americans had nothing to do with slavery.

1-The majority of Antebellum White Southerners never owned slaves.

2-The majority of Whites who immigrated to this country arrived after the Emancipation Proclamation.

3-The slaves transported on the middle passage were captured by African Blacks and then sold to the Slavers. Hatred based on slavery would necessarily include hating Blacks, as well.

4-None of the people involved are still alive, so you would be hating people who had nothing to do with slavery, anyway.

Side: They should FORGET the past
1 point

Nazis were the small group of Germans responsible for killing the Jews. As a Jew do you hate all Germans? That would be more in line with blacks hating whites.

Side: They should FORGET the past
excon(5818) Disputed
1 point

Hello C:

I DO.. I'd rather I didn't.. But, I DO.. And, yes it IS in line with why black people hate white people..

excon

Side: They DO. Who can blame 'em?
Cartman(18207) Disputed
1 point

Maybe you can explain why you hate non Nazis. Then we would understand your stance on black people.

So, your debate title should have been "I'm a Jew. I hate Nazis and non Nazis. Always will. Why shouldn't black purple hate the white man? " It would have made the debate a lot easier.

Side: They should FORGET the past
1 point

some people hate some don't its up to them to forgive and forget others hold grudges but I do not absolutely do not bame them if they hate the opposite skin colour but they should not be angryb at all of us and you cant hate someone if there great great grandad killed your mama or someone else because they didn't do anything I personally don't care about skin colour. some people if they are put I a room with the opposite race they will be rude and ignore everyone or even be racist but if it was me I wouldn't care if I was in there I would honestly just try and make friends it is not that hard at all. the skin colour does not make a difference about there personality or who they are and I get it about jews and natzies but still maybe don't live with hate in our heart and try tomove on and I personally the rasicm and if I ever heard some one being racist to another person I wouldn't be able to help but go and give them a piece of my mind about racism

Side: They should FORGET the past

If you want to live in the past you should hate the Democrat Party for supporting slavery.

Oh wait a minute, you vote for Democrats.

Hypocrite

Side: They should FORGET the past
1 point

Several remarks:

Slavery isn't the only thing black people went through. I think slavery is forgiven. The fresh wound is as recent of the holocost : segregation.

There are black grandparents who lived those years of fearing white people. That means there are parents who did not necessarily experience it but were tought not to forgive or forget. So most children today, might tought not to forget.

And that is the only thing that I insist on: FORGIVE BUT NEVER FORGET.

Hate hurts but forgetting just opens the possibility for similar atrocities to occur again.

Side: They should FORGET the past
1 point

This is a little extreme dont you think? Yes the jewish people and african people went through great ordeals of hate and mistreatment that stemmed from racism, but you're comparing things that should not be compared. Granite, yes, the white man did kill african american's openly and easily, and they were lynched and didn't have rights for a while, but the white man in America is not hitler. Hitler believed in one supreme race and killed millions upon millions of jewish people for that belief. He had them put in gas chambers, burned them, killed them- just because they were jewish. Things were rough here for african americans but the white man did not go to such extremes to try and completely rid of them. hitler's acts are way too extreme to compare to the treatment of african americans in the old days. there's a point where you have to ask yourself what the point of harboring such hatred does for you. hate is ugly and disgusting and ultimately the seed of great destruction.

Side: They should FORGET the past

Ok you should never forget the past but you move on from it. I think that they should move on because the white men didn't think that African Americans were people they thought they were property. I think lack of understanding is why that there was slavery. We white people are not all the same just like any races.

Side: They should FORGET the past
1 point

Jews and Nazis are not analogous to blacks and whites.

1) Only one relationship has anything to do with choice.

Nobody can choose to be white, but individuals choose to be Nazis.

To the degree that hating anybody makes sense, it only makes sense to hate people based on their own choices.

2) Only one relationship has anything to do with behavior of the hated individuals. A person's beliefs are generally reliable (though imperfect) predictors of the attitudes and behavior of the individual.

Being born white indicates nothing about the individual's attitudes and behaviors, so there is no way to know if the individual has any attitudes or engages in any behaviors worth hating.

By contrast, Nazism is a chosen set of beliefs that is generally (though not always) connected to attitudes behavior that are worth hating. These attitudes and behaviors include use of violence and vandalism in the face of ideas they do not like, and racism (categorizing and/or hating people based on their race).

This brings up the interesting point that black people who hate whites are themselves similar to Nazis in an odious way. Certainly many of the Black Lives Matter rioters in Philadelphia, Milwaukee, and Ferguson engaged in behaviors that made them hate-worthy in exactly the same way as Nazis.

3) White people is a category, not a group. Moreover that category is based on randomly selected phenotypes. There are some people who are not always categorized as white, depending on who is doing the categorization. What category you are in is primarily determined by someone else, and if you disagree, it makes no difference.

By contrast, Nazis are an actual group. There are clear definitions of what a Nazi believes (National Socialism, racism, command economies, violence as a valid response to ideas/people they disapprove of, etc..) People must join the group by choice, whether by philosophy or by signing up with a local chapter, going to meetings, potlucks, marches (they seem to like marching) , etc..

+++++++++++++++++++++

Make no mistake; I am NOT arguing that it is good to hate Nazis, but bad to hate white people.

It is disastrously foolish and self-destructive to hate anyone at all.

EVER.

Disagreement is fine. So is working to limit the destructive activities others engage in. Engaging to change peoples minds and hearts is better, still.

However, hatred turns off reason, empathy, the capability to forgive, and the ability to tell whether ones responses are proportionate.

Worse yet, hatred convinces people that their actions against those they hate are justified, and that they themselves are just, but without examining themselves to determine whether they truly are just, or whether their actions truly are just. Stoking hatred is exactly how Hitler convinced decent, peaceful people who loved children and believed in honor to participate in the Holocaust, and to believe they were doing something good and glorious all the while.

Hatred has a nasty way of making us into the exact sort of horrible person that we start off hating.

Side: They should FORGET the past