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If the NFL dies, will it be because of Kaepernik, or Concussions??
Players are killing themselves
Side Score: 35
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Black people are killing it
Side Score: 35
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I would say it's the link between brain damage and football players. There was something in the news recently about a football player who killed himself in jail after committing a violent crime. When they did an autopsy on his brain they found he had CTE which is damage to the brain in a region that controls emotion, impulse, social behavior and the like. It can only be found during an autopsy and out of 111 former NFL players whose brains had been donated and examined after death (of course) 110 had this condition. It paves the way for some massive legal repercussion both for the NFL and for any NFL player who has been convicted (or found not-guilty but now there is a reason or scapegoat) of a violent crime. Side: Players are killing themselves
Oh please, the anthem protests could never kill the NFL. There's too much money involved for everyone to end it over taking knees. And I don't think concussions could kill it either. They'll just start making everyone sign massive waivers that they're aware of the risk, and then back to the field they go. There are only two things that could kill the NFL. If nobody paid anymore because they don't care about it. Or if they made it so safe (like body suits of bubble wrap) that it could never be cool or interesting again. Side: Players are killing themselves
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Honestly, If the black football players are going to protest police brutality against blacks (even though 43% of all police brutality victims are white) , They should not disrespect america to do so. You see if you refuse to stand for the flag, you are showing utter disrespect towards the government, the citizens, and the veterans that fought and sacrificed themselves for our great nation. So, that is why these idiots who get paid millions of dollars to not respect their country can screw off of sports Side: Players are killing themselves
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I quit watching, don't care anymore, and don't want the product. They are losing millions of dollars and millions of viewers. Good. They deserve to. Insulting white conservative men, who make up most of their ticket sales, jersey sales, and viewer audience, and then insulting the cops who are protecting the stadium they are playing in, was stupidity beyond the pale. I'll go watch the Sooners play right here and be fine. I feel sorry for white people today who kept progressing and making things better, fought the war and righted the wrong, and then went through decades of their children being taught equality and to not be racist, just to grow up and be told what awful racist scumbags they are. I as a vet see it as you would see it if you gave someone a place to stay, gave them $1,000, gave them a car, all to help them out, and then when they got on their feet, they gave you the finger. Yeah? Right back at ya. Defend your own country. Side: Black people are killing it
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Who the fuck cares about the fucking NFL and the pledge of obedience? Whether they stand or kneel they are all pieces of spoiled steroid head donkey bullshit. I am so sick of fucking foot ball and this fucking meaningless waste of everyones time and energy. If you refuse to watch foot ball just because the players don't respect Donald Drumphs balls in their mouth then you are a retard, yet if you even watch foot ball in the first place and waste your life watching inbred neanderthals on steroids chase after a ball then you are also retarded, so I guess if you are even talking about this issue other than to point out how meaningless it is you are retarded. Side: Black people are killing it
Whilst I know nothing about the NFL I read about this "drama queens " refusal to stand for the national anthem in his words , “I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way.” – 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick, on his decision to sit during the national anthem ....... Very brave of him isn't it ? These are the actions of a self entitled child who's paid very well to play football , politics have no place in sports ; the public come to watch a ball game and are not their to see a traitor disrespect his flag and national anthem . Did the crowd at the game not boo him or cat call ? Tell you what you wouldn't get away with not standing for the anthem over here would be a brave man to try Side: Black people are killing it
@Dermot, "politics have no place in sports ; the public come to watch a ball game and are not their to see a traitor disrespect his flag and national anthem ." As FactMachine pointed out in his statement, "Who the fuck cares about the fucking NFL and the pledge of obedience?", politics is being inserted into the sports arena via the National Anthem and "Respect for the Flag" at the beginning of NFL games and other sporting events with these people (athletes, coaches, team management, ect.) are just expected to "fall in line" with the program of the people inserting politics into the arena (for which politics plays no intrinsic role to the game). So yes, people are allowed to not be bullied into obedience and just do what they are told simply because they are told. Rather, it is wiser to think for themselves on a matter, and if it turns out that they agree with the people inserting said politics into the game than they can support and join in on the pre-game political process/event. If they don't agree with it, then they shouldn't join in and support the political message that is being imposed on them and rather opt out and when asked "why are you opting out?", state your reasons. Side: Players are killing themselves
Well a lot of people obviously do care don't they ? I'm from the Republic of Ireland I'm a proud Irishman , I stand for the national anthem as a mark of respect for sacrifices made by my ancestors in building the country I'm now privileged to call home . I'm not expected to " fall in line " and no one is "bullying me " , if all these " heroes " are so upset at the country they live in why do they not do something as in take a case against the powers that be and change laws ? Side: Black people are killing it
Protesting and creating discussion/consciousness awareness is "doing something". In fact, as many of the players themselves explain, they are doing what is within their power to do and utilizing the particular platform available to them specifically to this purpose (for that matter, given the current climate, continuing to participate in the National Anthem could also be considered a form of protest and those players/coaches/ect. are "doing something" that is in their power to do by demonstrating their support for the system as it currently stands). Furthermore, if this was happening at a local High School where said platform is much smaller to non-existent, that would still be "doing something" as people should have voluntary association with what they do and don't agree with. Now, as far as, if all these " heroes " are so upset at the country they live in why do they not do something as in take a case against the powers that be and change laws", as long as their are issues in a given society, then their are grievances to address and people have the right/obligation to raise awareness about said grievances and encourage the society for which they live to make alterations in order (btw, I certainly do not think they are "heroes", just people who live in this particular society and therefore have a vested interest in the outcome). Even if a society were 98% "on point", there would still be some minor portion of issues to address (that need addressing) and the only way to do that is by addressing it (I know that sounds like a tautology but the position you are voicing is tantamount to "if you have grievances you wish to address, you best keep your mouth shut about it, be happy for what you do have and stop complaining, unless you can appeal to a formal court system of laws in your society about it" (which is in many cases exactly what they are attempting to change (ei. the social stance needs to change before the courts do because the courts are part of the society and functioning on social norms of the time. Take the example of the history of the Civil Rights movement in the United States say). The United States and Ireland are very different societies/country units with overlapping parts. Both the United States and Ireland (and every society on Earth for that matter) have many issues that are capable of being remedied and in order to do that it first has to be brought to people's attention, then people need to consider if said issue is in fact a "real" issue (which I'm gathering you do not believe this topic to be a "real" issue), and if it is, determine a course of action from that point after a tipping point of people are on the same page about it. That is to say, societies absolutely NEED some form of error correcting mechanism just like any other sensible physical system that is able to function healthily. The error correcting mechanisms of societies are through the medium of conversation/protest/civil disobedience/forceful revolution (which, to be clear, I am not endorsing)/ect. If you have another path, I would be interested to hear it. Or, to push you a bit further, do you believe societies require error correcting mechanisms or do you think people should just be content/proud of what they have (regardless of all of the unaddressed flaws in the design)? Side: Players are killing themselves
I've stated my case simply from the off politics has no place in sport if you have an objection to something that you deem societally wrong go down the accepted channels as in do something politically or legally that will actually make a difference . Side: Black people are killing it
@Dermot, "I've stated my case simply from the off politics has no place in sport if you have an objection to something that you deem societally wrong go down the accepted channels as in do something politically or legally that will actually make a difference ." As I pointed out, I take your case to be WAY TOO SIMPLE minded, and provide exact reasoning for this, as was also implicit in FactMachine's original post also (and from what I have seen from FactMachine, he/she also desires for large-scale changes to occur in society that would completely live the framework for which we currently live in. Now, how would a project like that even potentially be achieved through appealing to a court system that is firmly rooted in the current zeitgeist of a given society if there is no prior social movement to provide a competing framework?). I would like to see you engage with the points: 1. the social stance needs to change before the courts do because the courts are inherently part of the flawed society for which they are protesting against and functioning on social norms of the time. Take the example of the history of the Civil Rights movement in the United States say, or a case in another direction, the plight of the Native American population as they were being exterminated and chased off their lands who were appeal to court systems in vain (btw, there are innumerous examples of people with legitimate social grievances, even on extremely large scales, having their appeals to formal court systems being utterly futile). 2. societies absolutely NEED some form of error correcting mechanism just like any other sensible physical system that is able to function healthily. The error correcting mechanisms of societies are through the medium of conversation/protest/civil disobedience/forceful revolution (which, to be clear, I am not endorsing)/ect. If you have another path, I would be interested to hear it. If you insist on parroting, "appeal to the formal court system in the absence of a social movement that gives the said appeal some backing and a framework for which to raise a complaint" after I have just explained and provided a few examples that you could look into about how the formal court systems are always functioning on the prejudices and biases of the time, then I CHALLENGE you to provide ONE example of any significant social change that proved successful happening DIRECTLY through an appeal to a formal court system in a society (preferably US society because that is what I am most familiar with, but I will accept any society) in the ABSENCE of ANY preceding or coinciding social protest ("peaceful" or otherwise). Side: Players are killing themselves
Lol. I can gather you are frustrated however this is a debate forum and it is therefore reasonable for a person to ask for your reasons behind your positions (I have asked for one single example of this process that you claim works, it should not be difficult to provide it if you are as aware of it's existence as you claim). If you keep repeating yourself instead of elaborating, then you are in fact "parroting". Also, when do you think it is appropriate for civil disobedience/protest/ ect. to take place if ever? Side: Players are killing themselves
Which post is this? Presenting challenges to your worldview is not "trolling" it is challenging/debating. And from I can see, you have many holes in your worldview (I think we are touching on a major one right now, I'm sure FactMachine would agree with this). I am aware that I have holes in my worldview as well, and is why the prospect of debating people with various perspectives is exciting/interesting in order to learn/grow/adapt (and I have seen some interesting ideas from various people on different topics; as for you and I, from what I seen so far we agree about Atheism but have a lot of non-overlapping parts (disagreement) on other areas (eg. politics, social issues, by extension history, ect.) and think it is quite likely that we will be butting heads quite a bit).
Now, as for this topic, I stand by everything I have said so far and would like to see you address my specific points. As for the "world is a Representation" debate, I certainly concede to talking cross-purposes on some level with you (Dermot) and Amarel as I laid out in a side conversation with a different member if you read that you will see my objections on that front. Put shortly, Amarel and you (by extension) are absolutely correct that deeper Philosophic questions of the type "is there a single objective reality", "is reality "real"", "is reality that we are confined to a representation of a larger reality", ect. Good. I have begun to engage with you on that, you actually haven't made much of an argument besides for, "No, our view of reality is a representation of reality, but not reality itself". The final part of that statement is completely valid IF you provide reasons because as we have discussed, there are very plausible views in which that is NOT the case and is by no means self-evident. Also, I certainly would like to believe that both you and Amarel (@Amarel, some of which I have already apologized to Amarel about, and have made amends to some extent, although there is still an important matter in regards to that debate that is as of yet unsettled) understand what I am talking about when I discuss the distinction between what philosophers term the Manifest image (eg. the world of sound, color, ect) of the world and the Scientific image. Now, if you do understand it, provide several sentences or so giving an example of it in our own words other than color and the kind of optical illusions that I have invoked in order to prove this point ( (this is VERY EASY to do if you understand the distinction, it is IMPOSSIBLE to do if you do not). If you do, I will formally apologize to you both about that specific matter. However, if you cannot provide an example in your own words than it is highly reasonable for me to suppose that you simply do not understand it in which case what I have been arguing with you about (in terms of how I took the debate topic to be) holds in its entirety. If you say you want to "opt-out" of a several sentence explanation and that you have no need to prove your point that you do understand it after this lengthy back-and-forth we had, that clearly begs the question "why put in all this time and effort into that debate if you are 5 feet from the finish line, and just turn around and walk away before crossing?". Because if you do demonstrate your understanding of it, then I will concede that all of my argument on the "scientific point" was superfluous and did indeed "prattle on" as Amarel stated (meaning you will have won that entire portion of the debate). Understand that I keep going on about it because I want to see you address it directly (which you have not). Side: Players are killing themselves
I told you I'm not debating with you again as your earlier Ad Hominem suggests any further dialogue will end the same way ; from day one on here my rule has been if one acts and behaves in a civilised manner they shall receive similar courtesies back ; you decided to draw first blood so I'm not interested in you or your sneering attempts at insult Side: Players are killing themselves
I told you I'm not debating with you again as your earlier Ad Hominem suggests any further dialogue will end the same way ; from day one on here my rule has been if one acts and behaves in a civilised manner they shall receive similar courtesies back ; you decided to draw first blood so I'm not interested in you or your sneering attempts at insult It is the opposite, you initiated this adversarial dynamic when you replied to one of my original posts, "You say ... If you insist on parroting, "appeal to the formal court system in the absence of a social movement that gives the said appeal some backing and a framework for which to raise a complain..... Fuck off you ignorant troll". Its a cute trick to proclaim Ad Hominem after you initiated the insult. Nice try. Side: Black people are killing it
@Dermot, "also I note you never answered what I asked you in a previous post after saying you would get back to me you disengenous fuck" I'm not sure what post you are even referring to and I would also point out that I have been active on this forum for less than a week and as you can tell, I like to reply at some length so there is a time investment in responding and I have many other obligations in my life to attend to. Side: Players are killing themselves
it's you using your alter account to troll I really don't know how you have gotten this absurd idea in your head? You think I have a separate account as a long-time member or something and I have created a separate account to make very different arguments? Who do you think I may be? I have seen various people with similar views on topics, I have not seen anyone else talk/write in a similar way (everyone has a unique way of communicating and it is very difficult to hide for any extended amount of time). Don't you think that puts a whole in your theory? Side: Black people are killing it
The idea is not absurd and I never said as a long time member did I ? I never said different arguments either did I ? So you don't know your alt acrount now ? You're right it's very difficult to hide , I know you do it very badly don't you ? Actually it strengthens it as you're not very good at hiding it are you ? Side: Players are killing themselves
@Dermot, "I used to believe as in I was a devout Roman Catholic educated by the Jesuists and know the bible in Latin , my native Irish tounge and English; yet here I am an atheist as I realised I was merely a product of indoctrination ." This is a quote of yours from a different thread. Now, I am sorry that you were indoctrinated into this system and I commend you for thinking critically about it, were able to break free from your indoctrination and formal religious belief generally (I believe I have elsewhere describe yourself as an atheist). Great. Now, the reason I bring this up in the context of this thread is because what I argue you are failing to realize is that your religious beliefs and indoctrination goes MUCH further than just Christianity and into Politics/Social Issues/History/ect. I have seen FactMachine, Nomenclature, and other raise essentially this same point many times and it is not clicking with you. Essentially the same way you view your former self (former belief system with Christianity) is how I view your beliefs about Political/societal formation for instance. So, when you said, "I'm from the Republic of Ireland I'm a proud Irishman , I stand for the national anthem as a mark of respect for sacrifices made by my ancestors in building the country I'm now privileged to call home . I'm not expected to " fall in line " and no one is "bullying me " , if all these " heroes " are so upset at the country they live in why do they not do something as in take a case against the powers that be and change laws ?" and "Did the crowd at the game not boo him or cat call ? Tell you what you wouldn't get away with not standing for the anthem over here would be a brave man to try" that loosely translates to someone who is outside of your Nationalistic/Patriotic/Tribalistic/
Best of Luck. Side: Black people are killing it
No , you have not seen other people raise the same point , you've accused people of such as your alter egos as in FactMachine and Nomenclature ; hilariously you think most of society is indoctrinated as they do not accept your conspiracy theory viewpoint of the world as in your rabid adherence to a 9/11 " inside job " Proof of your insanity is the video from you tube you sent me last with with some drooling half -wit babbling on about the placebo effect in a deeply flawed piece of nonsense that somehow you think is "cutting edge " neuroscience Critical thinking is an alien concept to you as you demonstrate this by your " love affair " with conspiracy theorists , communism and hilariously the Venus Project .....now run off and put your tin foil hat back on Side: Players are killing themselves
I do not at all subscribe to the 9/11 Conspiracy Theory at all and am completely at a loss as to why you even think that?? As for the video I sent you, your right I concede that is not a good a video. First, he is not even a neuroscientist, he is a psychologist. Second, the only reason I quickly grabbed for a short clip to get you to engage with is because no matter how much I tried you kept side stepping the point almost definitely because you don't understand it. You have not provided so much as a single string of several sentences that shows you have an understanding of science that is on par with even a few popular science books (or for that matter credible documentary series). You do not even know what "Communism" and/or "Socialism" ARE. Your primitive dogmatic mind hears "RED ALERT, DANGER DANGER!" Side: Black people are killing it
You say.....I do not at all subscribe to the 9/11 Conspiracy Theory at all and am completely at a loss as to why you even think that??........ Yes you do denial is not an argument You say .......As for the video I sent t you, your right I concede that is not a good a video. First, he is not even a neuroscientist, he is a psychologist. Second, the only reason I quickly grabbed for a short clip to get you to engage with is because no matter how much I tried you kept side stepping the point almost definitely because you don't understand it....... More lies you actually said I made good points and you would get back to me you lying fuck , you didn't and you never addressed the questions I asked you . You say ..... You have not provided so much as a single string of several sentences that shows you have an understanding of science that is on par with even a few popular science books (or for that matter credible documentary series). You do not even know what "Communism" and/or "Socialism" ARE. Your primitive dogmatic mind hears "RED ALERT, DANGER DANGER!"......... You are scientifically illiterate you've demonstrated this with your psuedo intellectual you tube videos and you assertions about neuroscience which you copy and pasted from Wiki Side: Players are killing themselves
Roe v Wade is a perfect example of a social movement/protest gaining force until it reached a tipping point and became recognized (could no longer be ignored) from formal legal channels over a decade after it was originally being brought up in Second Wave Feminism arguments/protests. Floyd V City of New York with "Stop and Frisk" laws is different. Now, it has certainly been "in the air" that people are opposed to Stop-and-Frisk laws and have been articles and voices of dissent on that front. However, whether there were "formal" protests of the kind that would qualify for what I was discussing and is relevant to this topic, I do not know the answer to that (although I think it is probable and will get back to you on it). For the sake of this debate and your challenge to me, lets suppose that there were NOT "formal" style protests to Stop and Frisks prior to the legal case. In that case, I would agree with you (Amarel) that would qualify as a case of significant Social Change that occurred without a significant "formal" protest movement supporting it/causing the change to occur (however, as I stated before, I am not sure whether or not this was in fact the case and would be open to sources you may want to provide to bear your point out). Now, in a larger context, I think you and I have some agreement on this area actually (you can let me know if I'm off the mark here) because to make my position absolutely clear, it is as follows: Societies require some form of error correcting mechanism just like any other sensible physical system that is able to function healthily. The error correcting mechanisms of societies are through the medium of legal channels/conversation/protest/civil disobedience/forceful revolution. Now, the normative route when something is out of order (in my view) is: 1. Conversation (on a more independent/isolated level) 2. Legal channels/Court system 3. More conversation (larger groups are formulating with the same ideas/grievances) 4. Peaceful Protest 5. Protests become increasingly hostile 6. Revolution So, think of that as "if one fails repeatedly and utterly, go to the next option on the chain". Therefore, in terms of our topic of the NFL player protests, in their view (the players) steps 1-4 (with hints of 5) have already been taken/ongoing and they are deciding that their best option at the moment is to continue with step 4 of this error correcting mechanism in hopes of bringing about the change they desire in society. So when Dermot states that they should appeal to the courts, the entire point that the NFL players are making is that (in their view) they have already been appealing to the courts for many years and the court systems have utterly failed these people who have been killed by police officers under highly questionable circumstances (as in the need for the application of lethal use of force is viewed as highly questionable to outright wrong/illegal) and are now seeking "justice" outside of that court system until such a time comes (if it happens) that the police officers are held legally accountable for their actions in the same way a citizen would if they killed someone. Now, the question of how you feel about the cases of claimed excessive use of police force result in deaths is a separate issue than we are focusing in on now. Side: Players are killing themselves
Listen , xmathfanx / FactMachine / Nomenclature I said more than "they should appeal to the courts " why are you misrepresenting what I actually said ? Which was ? ...... I've stated my case simply from the off politics has no place in sport if you have an objection to something that you deem societally wrong go down the accepted channels as in do something politically or legally that will actually make a difference . Here is what you said regarding the matter ..... people are allowed to not be bullied into obedience and just do what they are told simply because they are told......... Who is bullying them ? How are they being bullied ? Why will you not back your assertions up ? Side: Black people are killing it
@Dermot. First, FactMachine and Nomenclature have not argued with you about this particular debate. I was bringing them up as an aside as I think they have said things toward you elsewhere that has overlap with what is being discussed here. So in short, your anger/frustration for them in terms of this debate at least is entirely my fault and nothing to do with them Side: Players are killing themselves
I know you were bringing your alter egos up in regards to previous encounters , so tell me do you honestly think the opinion of a conspiracy theorist like you matters ? I've no anger or frustration , I'm just not terribly fond of cowards like you who hide behind multi accounts in order to bolster their already flawed debating style Side: Black people are killing it
@Dermot. All I can say to you about the matter of Alter Egos more than I have already stated is this: If you truly believe that I am more than one member on this forum than you are in fact dumber than I had already thought, and believe me, that is saying ALOT.. Side: Players are killing themselves
XMassWank .. All I can say to you about the matter of Alter Egos more than I have already stated is this: If you truly believe that you're fooling anyone about not being more than one member on this forum than you are in fact dumber than I had already thought, and believe me, that is saying ALOT.. Side: Black people are killing it
Why don't you say and/or list the possibilities of who you believe me to be? Btw, notice nobody else is joining in on this discussion (or others we have had). So why wouldn't I use multiple accounts to "gang up" on you by supporting my case by having more subscribers to my side for you to contend with?? Why would I be acting independently? How does it help to have an alternative account if you are still working solo?? Side: Players are killing themselves
@Dermot. "But I have several times . I know that's so clever you stop doing it when I point it out ,,,,, that's ingenius Why ? Why ? Yeah as in why do you keep complimenting your alter egos comments ..... wait we know why don't we ?" Wtf are you even talking about?? Honestly, if your mind is capable of believing that then I am not at all surprised at your background (just as I said before in a previous post) and you are NOT realizing that the tentacles of Religious type thinking are deeply entrenched in you still.....You have provided no evidence of this claim (eg. Alternate name and debate threads/posts where you believe this is taking place). All I can say is I believe you are delusional I know that you are POTENTIALLY CAPABLE of critical, rational thinking because you escaped your religious indoctrination and now you speak rationally on THAT topic. I hope you are able to carry that through elsewhere (as I stated in a previous post) Side: Players are killing themselves
WTF , are you denying it for ? You've already mentioned your two " buddies " several times are you denying that now also ? You do not realise how firm a grip that your religious type of persecution complex has gone , I have provided evidence your refusal to acknowledge that is predictably typical . All I can say is I believe you are insane I know that you are INCAPABLE OF RATIONAL THOUGHT because of your persecution complex ; I understand you will not be able to carry through because your moments of clarity are getting less and less with each of your postings Side: Black people are killing it
My buddies? I have not even talked to FactMachine once and FactMachine and Nomenclature are listed as enemies on this forum. And as I have pointed out, they would not at all necessarily agree with some of the things I've said and positions I hold Dermot, aside from letting go of your religion which is great, I am not at all convinced that you understand Modern science even on a Popular Science book level, you view everything you read about History, Politics, Literature, Social issues through the State Religionist lens, you have not demonstrated any level of Philosophical insight aside from some well known "Logical Fallacies", and "Cognitive Biases" line of argumentation (at least you know something..), the only thing you have lost is the Christian title, belief in supernatural nonsense, and learned a LITTLE BIT about science and philosophy that one could go from scratch to learn the equivalent of in less than a years time. That is, on the scale of 1-10 of ignorance and dogmatic lunacy, you were a 10 and now your about a 7 or an 8. So, you are moving in the right direction, just keep going with it Side: Players are killing themselves
Knew it your only route is continued Ad Hominem as I predicted so let's serve it back , x MassWank ......aside from persisting with your communistic religion which is sad , I am not at all convinced that you understand Modern science even on a Popular Science book level, you view everything you read about History, Politics, Literature, Social issues through the Communist lens, you have not demonstrated any level of Philosophical insight aside from some well known "Logical Fallacies", and "Cognitive Biases" line of argumentation (at least you know something..), the only thing you have lost is the Christian title, belief in supernatural nonsense, and learned a LITTLE BIT about science and philosophy that one could go from scratch to learn the equivalent of in less than a years time. That is, on the scale of 1-10 of ignorance and dogmatic lunacy, you were a 10 and now your about a 7 or an 8. So, you are moving in the right direction, just keep going with it Side: Black people are killing it
@Dermot. Now, as I pointed out already, you said, "Did the crowd at the game not boo him or cat call ? Tell you what you wouldn't get away with not standing for the anthem over here would be a brave man to try". Now if you think that sounds sensible or are supporting that in anyway, then that is an example of attempting to bully people into submission of the political position that "Out of respect, you stand for the Anthem to your country" (which IS a political position as both I and implicitly FactMachine pointed out). Furthermore, the Anthem pre-game ceremony is not an intrinsic part of the game (e.i. you can play the game without it) so inserting it (as it has been inserted in recent years) IS a political position that the players/coaches/staff/ect. were and have been expected to "fall in line" with. Now, the players are using their rights of "freedom of speech" to opt out of this Political statement that has been inserted into their pre-game ceremony since they do not agree with it for reasons "X". People like you, ARE attempting to bully them into not exercising their right of voluntary association because (as I have explained), State Religionists like yourself believe the Anthem ceremony to be such a "sacred" event that (just like with Church Mass rules of kneeling at certain times ect.), you believe that there are things that you "just don't do" during such sacred ceremonies and traditions. Moreover, if your keeping up with what is goin on at all, you know that the President of the United States has said things to this effect (eg. "Get that Son of a B*tch off the field!"). Side: Players are killing themselves
Yes it does sound sensible and to stand for your national anthem is a mark of respect , if you don't respect your country ,people or laws why not maybe think about emigrating . Incidentally you don't have to keep appealing to yourself as in FactMachine/Nomenclature I get the point . Again if you insist on calling me a state religionist well then my reply would be , communists like you believe it's your right to enjoy the privileges of a capitalist society yet criticise the system while enjoying the benefits , you see it as a " divine right "to abuse the very system you benefit from For once I agree with Trump only I might have phrased it differently as in " Get that piece of anti American filth off the field " Side: Black people are killing it
@Dermot. "For once I agree with Trump only I might have phrased it differently as in " Get that piece of anti American filth off the field " I know you agree with Trump about that, hence this entire discussion....... (you agree with Trump about ALOT more than just that btw) If you think that I am FactMachine and Nomenclature as well, then you are VERY confused. Firstly, even though we do have quite a lot of overlapping parts, we also have some sharp differences that FactMachine and Nomenclature have really went to town on each other many times from what I can tell. You really think I'm having some kind of Schizophrenic/multiple personality syndrome sh*t on this site arguing with myself constantly and then at times agreeing with myself??? LMFAO So no, sadly, you do not get the point.. And as for Communism, there are a couple things I would say. First, there is a BIG difference between short-term feasible social and political changes that I would like to occur on a temporary front (of which I am most sympathetic to the Green Party, although there are other 3rd parties and figures in Main political parties that I have some immediate/short-term sympathy with (eg. Ron Paul is one, FactMachine may be sympathetic to Ron Paul in some respects from what I gather for the immideate/short term?? Correct me if I'm wrong please). In the long-term big picture, I do not label/consider myself a Communist although my views are very much leaning in that direction (although at this point I think there is a significant problem with the word "Communist" because people like yourself are not sophisticated enough to see through the propaganda storm and your Amygdala's immediately sound the alarms . Also, as a separate but very significant issue with "Communism" that I see, there were major issues with the internal structure of the Communists Parties being strictly hierarchical during the transition period into a truly Communistic society (which never happened of course because the internal hierarchical power structure of the Communist Parties opened the door for malevolent opportunists (nearly by design) such as Stalin to rise to power and derail the movement (what the vast majority of Communists thought the movement was about at least even though they made the fatal flaw of playing "Follow the Leader") I think people such as Bakunin were making sensible objections to the Party structure at the time and could have seen the failure coming from miles and miles away. I do agree with alot/most of the principles that I have heard Nomenclature and FactMachine discuss (although I have not read/come across what Nomenclature believes about the internal power structure of the Communist Parties, if he views it as a problem, and exactly what he thinks a Communist society entails if a successful transition is met because there are varying views)and really think that their political goals/philosophies overlap quite significantly. For instance, FactMachine supports Jacque Fresco's Resource based economy, and under more traditional/theoretical versions of a Communist society, there is no Centralized state, national borders, or Monetary system. So there is ALOT of overlap between those views and I am very sympathetic to both (e.i. if I could choose between Capitalism on the one hand and Communism or a Resource based economy on the other, I would choose one of the two latter in a heartbeat, no contest. Also, I believe that FactMachine and Nomenclature are light-years ahead of you in terms of maturly discussing/reasoning how a society should/could most efficaciously be organized and the three of us certainly do not agree about everything on this topic and potentially have a bit to debate/argue about amongst ourselves on the matter). If I were to accept a label myself then Libertarian Socialist to be most closely fitting and I would be interested in exploring the nuances of these views in a separate debate thread. Again if you insist on calling me a state religionist well then my reply would be , communists like you believe it's your right to enjoy the privileges of a capitalist society yet criticise the system while enjoying the benefits , you see it as a " divine right "to abuse the very system you benefit from This is a precise example of why I call you a devout, fundamentalist believer in the Religion of the State and if you do not understand that then maybe you should take a second look at your "Bible" and you'll begin to see all of the massive, gaping holes in the story. And eventually, you'll see enough holes that the belief system collapses in on itself (just like the experience you had with Christianity) and I will be here to welcome you with arms wide open on the other side once you see the Light. Side: Players are killing themselves
What a long winded pile of horseshit , most is just inane rantings and a pushing of your religious views as in communism which you see as something sacred . Yes of course your alter egos are great and know everything as you keep saying ; I know the Venus project and it cultish supporters are surely the way to go 😂😂 I asked one question regarding a resource based economy and you folded like a cheap deck chair on a windy day . Most of what you say is a mangling of communist theory and light years behind anything that could be considered viable your " love affair " with Jaques Fresco and his ridiculous Venus project is typical , this was preceded by a video of some idiot talking gibberish on you tube ; I think the best place for you is with the foil hat brigade watching re -runs on your favourite conspiracy channel network Side: Black people are killing it
LMAO I just told you I have significant problems with "Communism" in the ways that I described above. Communism, the Venus Project, and Libertarian Socialism DO NOT even match up directly (they just have some notable overlapping parts). The only thing you lost was the title of Fundamentalist Christian, but you are still very much on board the Crazy Train. You just simply moved from First Class to Coach. Why not get off altogether and enter Modernity? Side: Players are killing themselves
You need to work on your trolling skills your first day on here you attempted to debate and I asked you several questions on Gypsees post which you failed to answer ; you follow up by going on a different debate and resorting to Ad Hominem but get all upset when you get it back . Now you're just going down the sad predictable route of the troll as in start with Ad Hominem , next stage attack intelligence of opponent , follow this with spelling and punctuation attacks and the final attack is normally brand your opponent a Nazi So tell you what get it all out and let fly as it will aid your cause as in actually not debating which is your goal here Side: Black people are killing it
I certainly wouldn't even think to call you a "Nazi". I have honestly been trying to tell you what I think of you so to summarize one final time: You had a severe Religious indoctrination that has been an extremely formative experience in your life. Through your own critical thinking skills and exposure to other ideas outside of the worldview for which you were indoctrinated (eg. perhaps science for example), you were able to overthrow your religious indoctrination and enter a more modern secular worldview that I think we both agree on this point at least is much more rational. Learning things like Science and Philosophy helped make you grow a feeling of real intelligence and knowledge about the world that many other people you may be coming into contact with on a daily/weekly basis do not know (very basic science and philosophy, and history of science, ect.). This starts to become part of your identity (feeling smart) rather than the former you that was devoutly religious and not necessarily thinking all that clearly (I do not want to knock you for that much b/c I understand you were heavily indoctrinated and that's not your fault). Good, I am glad for you about all of that and think that you should adopt/hold on to this as part of your identity. Now, here is where we diverge, from my vantage point, much of your former framework when you were religiously indoctrinated such as your view of social norms, history of the world (not as in the history of science but "conventional history"), ect. is still all based inside of the same framework that you grew up in and although you have "took out some of the trash" by jettisoning religion and began to build a more solid foundation for yourself with logical thinking, you still have ALOT more trash to take out before your lot is clean. So just speaking generally, the areas I think you should be looking in on are 1. Social Norms 2. Political Formation 3. Human History 4. Conflicts within the History of Science (as in, Science is a human endeavor and scientists have all the same biases that "regular" people do and there are many flaws inside Science to this effect. Now, practically what that means is, the same way that when you were a Fundamentalist Christian if you would have come across a provocative book title at your local bookstore/library like "The God Delusion" and almost defiantly would have clammed up/ignored it/thrown a fit/(insert however you think you would have acted and the types of dismissive thoughts you would have had that would allow you to ignore it and maintain your present framework), I am suggesting that is how you currently view things across the spectrum for which are not Religion with a capital "R", yet if you are willing to go to your local library/bookstore and so much as view/read the titles of all these different provocative books for the other main 3 areas I labeled, hold them in your hand, read the inside and outside cover, get comfortable with seeing MANY different books that challenge your framework, consider/question what may be in the books and hopefully get the courage to start reading them as you found the courage to overthrow your Christianity (you already did the hard part) and I 100% guarantee you, you'd be amazed at what you find. I really think you owe it to yourself frankly (would you want to live through the rest of your life as your former Religious self?? because you are doing a version of that right now and you do not realize it, you are crippling yourself with an extremely limited framework). In fact I challenge you directly, I dare you (as in I do not think you have the courage to do it) to do as I laid out above (you will know when you come across a proactive book title that sparks your interest when you see one, those are exactly the kinds of books you should be reading). What do you even have to lose if I'm wrong?? Reading some extra books?? Btw, and this is an important point, provocative in the sense that it fundamentally challenges your current framework just like coming across "The God Delusion" would have challenged you before. Best of Luck. Side: Players are killing themselves
Another pile of absolute horseshit from the 9/11 truther ;is your tin foil hat still on at the moment ? Most of your horseshit is the typical rantings of a failed bar room Marxist /Philosopher possibly claiming welfare and railing at the system that he abuses and blames for his continuing lack of sucess in the real world . Your "education " as you've demonstrated is from a you tube pusedoscience site that no doubt you and your wide eyed fellow truthers swallow up like greedy children given free reign in a sweet shop . You could maybe with a bit of state help go back to school and start at the lower grades and maybe get a grant to purchase a primer in maths , a book on real philosophy as opposed to " bar room " philosophy and maybe a bit of basic science as opposed to you tube videos about the placebo effect , if you get " stuck " I will attempt to guide you . Your religious views are a matter for concern as in your worship of Stalinist type " logic " that's something you really need to work on . It's hilarious an idiot like you sees the awful God Delusion as a brilliant bit of writing , it's truly appaling and was written to appeal to imbeciles just like you Side: Black people are killing it
Okay...
I do not understand the link you are trying to draw with me and believing in Conspiracy Theories unless either FactMachine or Nomenclature supports the 9/11 CT. All I can say is, there is quite a bit that I agree with Nomenclature and FactMachine on, but certainly not everything and I'm sure they may feel similar toward me to varying degrees. No two people are going to agree on everything Listen, the main reason I even link to videos/books/ect. is exactly to reach people like you who are very ignorant and frankly need some direction in order to "get a clue" or am citing a specific point that I made that would require supporting evidence. Now, from reading FactMachine and Nomenclature they HAVE produced quite a few strings of sentences that shows that they have scientific literacy (e.i. they at minimum have a sense of wtf Science is about and general concepts behind our modern understanding of the world and are curious about it. I would not be surprised at all if they both have read Popular Science type books and the such and/or potentially more. When I read their posts that mention concepts drawn from science and other subjects for that matter, I know what they are talking about and when they read mine I would venture a guess that they understand wtf I'm talking about) which you OBVIOUSLY DO NOT or by this point, something would have came out that demonstrated you do (I'm not looking for anything f*cking complicated here). Your "education " as you've demonstrated is from a you tube pusedoscience site that no doubt you and your wide eyed fellow truthers swallow up like greedy children given free reign in a sweet shop . Wrong again. I formally study Mathematics and Physics and am well on my way to becoming a Math and/or Physics Professor/Researcher. I independently study other Sciences (and different branches of Math and Physics for that matter) as hobby and have at least a minimum of technical/mathematical background to be able to understand, with varying levels of success (depending on the topic and within a limited scope), wtf the textbook/technical material is saying (whereas to you, everything would look like Hieroglyphics). I actually want to understand on the deepest level I can achieve how things work, not just science but elsewhere also, while you are satisfied with the most pathetically simple minded answers that it is jaw dropping to me. I'm talking to you about Pop Science books and YouTube videos because A. There is no need to go beyond that here B. that is how I originally got into Science and other subjects so I know how powerful a tool it can be. C. In many cases, they can be quite informative in shorts amount of time to people who have not been exposed to the ideas before (and you clearly don't understand the contents of these videos/books or none of this back-and-forth between you and I would have happened). D. This isn't the Physics Forum which IS the place for that, this is a Debate Forum. You, to date, have not produced a string of sentences that would demonstrate that even a Stephen Hawking style Pop Science book isn't over your head at the moment to the point that you would lose interest in the book halfway through (which I think it is). You have done a lot of the hard work by overthrowing your Christianity, why not keep looking at what else you may have missed? I'm really starting to get the sense that you were a Deeply Fundamentalist Christian and that I'm dealing with that kind of mind here (like for example FromWithin)... Side: Players are killing themselves
Okay ..... again your pathetic appeal to yourself as in stating how clever your alt accounts are is not very convincing ; also posting long strings of incoherent gibberish just further demonstrates that you suffer from severe retardation so I do admire your " bravery " in attempting to understand what's obviously way beyond your " intellectual level " Your have no grounding in science or mathematics as your ignorance on both subjects is alarming ;a garbled attempt at trying to justify an appalling video of an illiterate idiot ( possibly you ) attempting to hold forth on something he knows nothing about is sad , predictably you thought it a sensation just like your adoration of the awful God delusion . I think your future lies in violent protest , rabble rousing and sewing discord with your fellow Stalinist piss heads ; I think you best leaving science , math and philosophy to your betters such a I I think you might find the sort of "debate " your type needs with the likes of Fromwithin and various other retards like him Side: Black people are killing it
You're an arrogant something or other.....acting like you are super intelligent. By your own statements, your education level is low and your accomplishments pretty much zilch. It's typical of atheists to act like they are intellectually superior to anybody who believes God is God, no matter how feebly their credentials compare to the people they are elevating themselves over. And I still think you are a Muslim since you refuse to acknowledge that the Bible excludes the Koran from being true, and it excludes Mohammed from being a prophet sent from God. You talk about what Muslims believe like a typical Muslim who ignores facts......I still think you are a Muslim and not the first one I've seen pretending to be an atheist while pushing Muslim talking points designed to prep suckers to bow to Islam. Side: Players are killing themselves
I would agree that the citizenry serves as a check on government and institutions in a healthy society. I would call your continuum something of an ideal. Especially when we live in a time when all matters are amped up so that people go straight to violence. But yes, the necessity for protest is apparent, and the country has a long tradition of utilizing the 1st Amendment. The NFL issue is slightly different from protests in the street or in some other public venue.They are on the job. They are protesting while being paid by people who may or may not agree with the issue at hand or the means of protest. As such, the players don’t have the right to do what they are doing, rather they do it at the pleasure of those for whom they are working at the moment of protest. If team owners shut them down, no ones Rights would be infringed. Their method of protest is a matter of contention too, and they seem to be failing at their goal. Everyone stopped talking about the struggles of black America and started talking about whether it is appropriate to kneel. I have to disagree with the end of your post. The validity of a protest has everything to do with whether the grievances of the protest are valid. Not all protest is created equal, neither in form or cause. If the cause is just, but the form of protest is problematic, then the protest should alter, for its own sake. If the cause is not just, then a bad form of protest only makes the situation worse. But simply holding signs quietly in a park for a bad cause is wrong. The football players are engaged in a stupid form of protest for a cause that is not factually accurate. It’s their right so long as those who hired them allow it. It’s also the right of viewers to stop watching football, which they did. Even if the cause was factually accurate, doing something commonly viewed as disrespectful for a symbol that is meant to be unifying, is not going to help a cause. Side: Players are killing themselves
As such, the players don’t have the right to do what they are doing, rather they do it at the pleasure of those for whom they are working at the moment of protest. If team owners shut them down, no ones Rights would be infringed. Hello A: They're NOT employees.. They're CONTRACTORS.. As such, if their contract doesn't prevent them from protesting, then they're FREE to protest.. IF the owners STOPPED them, they'd be violating the players RIGHTS under the contract, and it would cost 'em a bundle if they did.. Freedom is pretty cool, isn't it? And, yes.. I agree. You don't LIKE where they protest. You think it's not working, and you wish they'd do something else.. Their protest BOTHERS you.. Well, my friend, that's what protest is DESIGNED to do.. excon Side: Black people are killing it
If everyone is paying attention to the protest rather than the cause, it’s not doing what it’s supposed to. Almost all employees in every sector sign employment contracts. If a contractor is employed by anyone other than himself, he is an employee. But the semantics are neither here nor there for this point. NFL players CAN be fired for what they are doing. “The standard NFL player contract—which every player signs—offers considerable discretion to teams in the decision to terminate a player’s employment. Take Paragraph 2 for “employment and services.” In it, the player pledges to “conduct himself on and off the field with appropriate recognition of the fact that the success of professional football depends largely on public respect for and approval of those associated with the game.’” If a team fires a player, they would have a strong case in civil court. Side: Players are killing themselves
Who cares? I'll never watch football again when my countrymen are spilling their blood for the flag those spoiled brats refuse to stand up for.......and the spineless owners allow it to continue. It's good to see the NFL losing a lot of ad revenue over their stupidity. Side: Black people are killing it
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