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80
47
The Mother's Freedom The Baby's Freedom
Debate Score:127
Arguments:93
Total Votes:139
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 The Mother's Freedom (44)
 
 The Baby's Freedom (38)

Debate Creator

OODaddy(127) pic



Is Abortion equivalent to Slavery ?

In the "Is Abortion Right?" debate, Jawkins20 presents a compelling argument that abortion is equivalent to slavery, what do you think ?votevote

The Mother's Freedom

Side Score: 80
VS.

The Baby's Freedom

Side Score: 47
4 points

Until a child is born it is basically a Parasite living within the mother and it's survival relies on the mother. It is better to have access to hygenic and "safe" abortions than women try and deal with unwanted pregnancies themselves or using backstreet abortionists which will happen if abortion is banned.

Side: The Mother's Freedom
2 points

As long as that baby is in the mother and 100% dependent on her, it's not something that can be considered a separate part of her. If she dies, it dies. It's completely dependent on her, and as such, whether or not that baby is aborted should be up to the mother. Not to mention, to spin the argument on itself, if a woman is raped, she should have to endure pain and suffering for 9 months? That effectively turns the mother into the slave of the child.

Side: The Mother's Freedom
2 points

To paraphrase markml0528, imagine a pair of twins. One is dying of kidney disease, the other is the only matching donor. Should we compel one twin to undergo a painful and potentially fatal procedure to give a kidney to the other ?

Side: The Mother's Freedom

I merely created my own hypothetical situation, based off of someone else's argument.

People say that the mother is obligated to continue the pregnancy to save the unborn child.

It is a good parallel with the only compatible kidney donor being forced against their will to give up their kidney, to save the person.

Side: The Mother's Freedom
1 point

i completely agree! I believe it's not intentional of the baby to die. And if it were it just wasn't meant to be. We all die in the end and instead of making the baby suffer we should pt it to rest then lead it to believe everything will be alright. Especially if it a baby from rape. In my opinion i would not keep the child if i were to be raped i wouldnt want anything to do with him and have anything/anyone that resembles him!

Side: The Mother's Freedom
2 points

Jawkins20 made an interesting comparison between slavery and abortion and cited the Dredd Scott decision. However in that decision the key term was "Living Person". A fetus cannot be a slave because it is not a living person.

Side: The Mother's Freedom
2 points

As others have pointed out rape victims fall pregnant, these are people who have had their freedoms taken from them and been tortured already should the torture be extended by forcing them to have the baby. You cant be anti rape, anti slavery and anti abortion.

Side: The Mother's Freedom
2 points

I don't think fetuses are whipped and put to work.

Side: The Mother's Freedom
2 points

"(T)he line between lawful and unlawful abortion will be marked by the fact of having sensation and being alive."

Aristotle

Side: The Mother's Freedom

no it is not equivalent to slavery. or that is what i think

Side: The Mother's Freedom
4 points

Slavery is about stealing and destroying someone's future, happiness and freedom for the sake of one's own personal agenda. It's about thinking that we're superior, more valuable and more entitled than the one we subjugate to our mercy. And to justify such oppression, we try to dehumanize the oppressed - they are not humans, they have no rights, they are not persons, they do not deserve anything over me.

Even if we look at the general rethoric of pro-choicers, it mirrors that of the slavery supporters:

Blacks are not persons, therefore they have no rights.

If you don't like slaves, don't own/have one, but don't tell me what I can and what I can't do. This is a free nation.

We are not ready for such extensive protection of human rights - the pragmatic needs of the society (whites) come before the rights of the few (blacks).

If I did not have slaves, I would have so many new responsibilities and as such, I wouldn't be able to follow my career and academic ambitions.

Just replace ''blacks'' with ''fetuses'' and ''slaves'' with ''abortions''.

Today we find these pro-slavery arguments to be patently absurd and we find ourselves asking - How could have something like this ever been possible. I'm convinced that in the next 100 years (hopefully much sooner) or so, we will have the same view on abortion.

Side: The Baby's Freedom
ChuckHades(3198) Disputed
3 points

Do you see abortion as acceptable at any point during the pregnancy? Because there is a very large biological difference between a zygote and a fetus in the 3rd trimester.

Side: The Mother's Freedom
2 points

Absolutely not. In fact I strongly support most late term abortion bans. I'm comfortable with a ban on abortions after the first trimester or so, unless the mother's life is in IMMINENT danger

Side: The Mother's Freedom
VecVeltro(412) Disputed
1 point

Abortion is not acceptable at any point during the pregnancy. The only exception I can think of is when there's a very good possibility that the mother may die. In this case I feel that the mother has the right to defend her life. Cases like these are incredibly rare and really shouldn't be mentioned when the main discourse is about selective abortions, not hard case abortions.

I'd like to know what that very large biological difference is? Is the fetus in the 3rd trimester ''more human''?

Side: The Baby's Freedom
1 point

Awesome and beautifully written! That is a perfect example of how the two relate and are just different with the names, not different by the nature.

Side: The Baby's Freedom
OODaddy(127) Disputed
1 point

Nicely written. But the fundamental difference is that even assuming that a fetus is a person with rights, with abortion we have to choose between the rights of two induviduals. If a raped woman is forced to carry an unwanted child isn't she now the slave ?

Side: The Mother's Freedom
VecVeltro(412) Disputed
1 point

When a rapist suspends the bodily autonomy of the woman, violates it for his own ends - we call that rape.

When the woman suspends the bodily autonomy of the unborn human, violates his/her body for her own ends - we call that the woman's right.

How is it that rapist is condemned for his actions while the woman gets a free pass for something that essentially mirrors the crimes of the rapist?

When it comes to rights of the unwanted child against the mother - I think one would have to be a mad man to suggest that limited control over your body for 9 months outweighs the entire future lifetime of another human being.

We can also draw some very interesting conclusions here - When the child is unwanted, the mother is a slave. If the child is wanted - is the mother still a slave? If so, does she have any moral obligation to her unborn child even if that child was planned and wanted?

Side: The Baby's Freedom
2 points

SLAVES & UNBORN CHILDREN BOTH:

Are helpless to power

Cannot speak for themselves

Torture is inflicted on them against their will--torture they felt

They have No Choice

They were put to death

The were considered not human

They made people money by being victimized

If you were against slavery, how can you not be against abortion?

Side: The Baby's Freedom
2 points

However slaves are living people and unborn children are not. In fact the term "unborn children" undermines your argument. How can an "unborn" child be living ?

Side: The Baby's Freedom
Jawkins20(140) Disputed
0 points

Just because someone is not born yet, doesn't mean their not living. What do the nine months mean, if they weren't living. I guess when the mother feels kicking and moving inside her, it's nothing because it's not living until born. Life starts at conception, cell, fetus, baby. No matter what you chose to call it, once you stop something from life, then that is taking away the sanctity of life.

Side: The Mother's Freedom
Cuaroc(8826) Disputed
2 points

Torture is inflicted on them against their will--torture they felt

How can something be torture on something that does not feel pain or doesn't even have a concious.

Side: The Mother's Freedom
Jawkins20(140) Disputed
2 points

Look up abortion procedures and tell me that babies don't feel pain, when you hear them screaming while being torn apart. That is sickening and I my heart breaks for the babies.

Side: The Baby's Freedom
ChuckHades(3198) Disputed
2 points

That's a ridiculous argument. One could substitute "unborn child" for "pet rock", or "milk jug", or "ant". A slave is forced into doing things, a fetus cannot do things. There is a very big difference, one which renders your argument impotent.

Side: The Mother's Freedom
Elvira(3447) Clarified
2 points

I have pet rocks. :)

Side: The Mother's Freedom
2 points

The woman's freedom is gone, once she invites someone else's freedom inside her. She no longer should have freedom to take another's freedom away. Life is equal, no one should have the upper hand. If two women were stranded on an island and started running out of food. They started starving to death, so the more powerful, stronger woman decides to kill the other to prolong the food supply. What gives her that right to do so? Are not both their lives equal, and it should not matter who is stronger. In the case of a mother, she isn't even starving to death, she's taking the life of the weaker just because she doesn't want to deal with the burden she brought upon herself. Later on she will realize it wasn't a burden at all, but her very own flesh and blood. Her baby.

Side: The Baby's Freedom
OODaddy(127) Disputed
1 point

Your basic premise is flawed. What about the case of rape where the pregnancy was forced upon her ? A woman who is raped certainly didn't "invite" this upon herself. If I follow your logic it sounds like you support abortion in the case of rape.

Side: The Mother's Freedom
3 points

I'd agree with you there because if you did'nt allow the mother to abort she would be a slave to the child for at least 9 months, or is slavery supported in rape cases?

Side: The Mother's Freedom
Jawkins20(140) Disputed
1 point

Rape or incest are issues only one percent of the time. Ninety-three percent of all abortions in America are performed just because someone doesn't want a child.

Side: The Baby's Freedom
2 points

"Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching its people to love, but to use violence to get what they want. That is why the greatest destroyer of love and peace is abortion"

Mother Teresa

Side: The Baby's Freedom
OODaddy(127) Disputed
2 points

One method of destroying a concept is by diluting its meaning. Observe that by ascribing rights to the unborn, i.e., the nonliving, the anti-abortionists obliterate the rights of the living

Ayn Rand

Side: The Mother's Freedom
VecVeltro(412) Clarified
1 point

Can you define what you mean by ''living''? Does living mean that the subject is merely biologically alive or does it have some other meaning?

Side: The Mother's Freedom
1 point

There are four basic types of abortion being performed in America today, while two more types may be added in the near future.

First, there's the suction type abortion. This is where the unborn child is literally vacuumed from the mother's womb during the early stages of pregnancy.

The currette-type abortion is where the child is cut from the mother's womb with a spoon-like object.

A third type is similar to a Caesarean operation. The baby is surgically removed from the mother and allowed to suffocate, because the child's lungs aren't developed.

The fourth type of abortion is the Salt Brine technique. With this method, the unborn child is literally "pickled" to death by the injection of a strong salt solution. A few days after the injection the child is still born.

If this sounds like just a basic procedure to you, there's a problems, this is clearly murder and not giving the baby the right at life. Babies are slaves to their mothers and have no choice of life, they have to accept death.

Side: The Baby's Freedom
TheAshman(2299) Disputed
2 points

No ones arguing that it is a basic procedure and its not something someone forgets in a hurry at the moment whilst abortion is legal the mother gets councelling and help before and after the operation, something that they would be denied if abortion was made illegal and they had to use underhand ways to get rid of the unwanted pregnancy or had to have a backstreet abortion. Instead of trying to tug at peoples heart strings why dont you try answering some of the questions people have put to you.

Side: The Mother's Freedom
Jawkins20(140) Disputed
1 point

All reasonable questions I have answered. We have different opinions clearly, but the MAIN difference is. I am on God's side on this topic, you are on mans. No matter what stuff people say or don't say about abortion being ok. I will stand firm to the end knowing in my heart that abortion is murder, and that simply I am hoping to enlighten the ones still on the fences about this VERY important topic. I respect all of you people in this discussion, and pray for healing in this country, but I will not back down for what I know to be right in God's eyes.

Side: The Baby's Freedom
1 point

"It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish." Mother Teresa

Side: The Baby's Freedom

The child is not a person until it gains consciousness, which can be measured by brain waves. Therefore, before this point, the fetus is not a human being, and therefore is not be subjected to slavery if aborted at this time.

Though, after the fetus exhibits brain waves, it is a person. Therefore, any abortions done while the fetus is conscious is murder, and slavery.

Side: The Baby's Freedom
1 point

Consciousness is key. There is a strong consensus that consciousness is connected with folding in the Cerebellum. This occurs in the early to mid 2nd trimester. An interesting coincidence is that the perception of pain occurs in the mid to late 2nd trimester. I support a woman's freedom to choose till sometime around the beginning of the second trimester.

Side: The Baby's Freedom