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Debate Score:15
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xMathFanx(1573) pic



Is the "Lord of the Rings" Harmful for Promoting a Good Vs. Pure Evil Narrative?

"J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings trilogy is a genuine masterpiece. The most widely read and influential fantasy epic of all time, it is also quite simply one of the most memorable and beloved tales ever told. Originally published in 1954, The Lord of the Rings set the framework upon which all epic/quest fantasy since has been built. Through the urgings of the enigmatic wizard Gandalf, young hobbit Frodo Baggins embarks on an urgent, incredibly treacherous journey to destroy the One Ring. This ring -- created and then lost by the Dark Lord, Sauron, centuries earlier -- is a weapon of evil, one that Sauron desperately wants returned to him. With the power of the ring once again his own, the Dark Lord will unleash his wrath upon all of Middle-earth. The only way to prevent this horrible fate from becoming reality is to return the Ring to Mordor, the only place it can be destroyed. Unfortunately for our heroes, Mordor is also Sauron's lair. The Lord of the Rings trilogy is essential reading not only for fans of fantasy but for lovers of classic literature as well."        -Goodreads.com
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Nah. It's a fantasy novel. When people (like George W Bush for example) do it in real life, then that's the time to worry.

2 points

Bush, the liberal RINO globalist trash weasal. Aaaah...he was the precursor to an even more vile "New World Order" cultist...

1 point

Umm...sure, if and when Sauron ever rises in the east, with his army of orcs.

First of all, Tolkien was more subtle than that - the good guys are not pure good. They have flaws. The real world is even more subtle - there is no pure good or pure evil, and promoting such a thing is an exercise in idiocy, and actually dangerous for society.

xMathFanx(1573) Clarified
1 point

@ElonG. First of all, Tolkien was more subtle than that - the good guys are not pure good. They have flaws. The real world is even more subtle - there is no pure good or pure evil, and promoting such a thing is an exercise in idiocy, and actually dangerous for society.

Agreed that good guys are more complex then Pure Good (although they are still good), but the bad guys are Pure Evil.

Yes. In fact it is important to note that Orcs are an extremely noble race throughout mythology, they live to truly allow every single being (Orc or not) thrive in its own way. They were possessed and misled by corrupt warlocks and somehow we think it's ok they get stomped on and slaughtered in the masses...

Meanwhile we think elves, the literal Illuminati of the LOTR world, are somehow the 'good guys' because they enforce order by brutalising any species that dares question their authority... Then again, the Bible was exactly the same story as was the Qur'an so this trend doesn't shock me.

People like to mistake anarchy for evil and tyranny for heroism so let them.

1 point

"In fact it is important to note that Orcs are an extremely noble race throughout mythology, they live to truly allow every single being (Orc or not) thrive in its own way. They were possessed and misled by corrupt warlocks and somehow we think it's ok they get stomped on and slaughtered in the masses..."

Exactly. Personally, I like LOTR as a story a lot, however when you stop, step back, and think about it, the way they (the "good guys") view the orcs and killing the orcs is psychopathic.

Here are a couple of links on the History of the Orcs:

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXVkWxura1Q

2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbHF2yp844E

Furthermore, there was a novel published titled "The Last Ringbearer" that tells the story of Middle-Earth/LOTR from Mordor's perspective (the losers side). Here is a link to the book and a short article on it:

1. https://www.salon.com/2011/02/15/lastringbearer/

2. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/10329770-the-last-ringbearer

1 point

It is a work of pure fiction, so it's not going to be realistic. I do however, think that the good vs evil plotline has already been overused too much. It has become a cliche really. But LotR is still a great book, and a great movie too.

Why have you used LOTR as your example rather than the United States of America?

Oh, that's right. It's because you're a retard. My bad.

xMathFanx(1573) Clarified
1 point

@Nomenclatue

Why have you used LOTR as your example rather than the United States of America?

These are separate topics. Also, not every issues comes back to either the USA or Nazism (believe it or not).

This is a legitimate area of inquiry.

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The men/elves/dwarves/ect. are acting in self-defense as they have essentially no choice given they are facing murderous creatures from Hell who's lives' purpose is to carry out the evil deeds of the Devil (Sauron--and puppet Sauromon). It is also true that the orcs (and such) were born into slavery (somewhat like the First Order in Star Wars), they clearly are conscious, are brainwashed, largely terrified of their masters who control them like disposable pawns, have some redeeming qualities as is displayed toward each other--and are met with complete disgust/revulsion by the good guys rather than having some level of pity/compassion for their horrible situation (as is shown toward Gollum for instance).

That is, my main points are:

(A) The good guys undoubtedly have the moral high ground and are in the right since they are left with essentially absolutely no other option as they were up against the physical manifestation of Evil (which does not happen in real life--it is always more complex then that)

(B) If you look a bit deeper, it is in fact more complicated than that as one would think the good guys should have some real pity/compassion toward many of these sad creatures who were born to be enslaved, brainwashed, controlled/conditioned to murder, do the bidding of the Devil, and are bound to a Hellish life (even though they show many humanoid characteristics--some of which are redeeming qualities). That is, there is a second tragedy at work in the novel (as is always the case in real life--however, is not the mainstream view of the story in LOTR)

(C) (There are potentially many other areas that could be explored as well)

1 point

These are separate topics

Thanks, Captain Obvious. To repeat myself, why have you used LOTR as your example rather than the United States of America? The LOTR has an extremely limited audience.

Also, not every issues comes back to either the USA or Nazism

Correct. Some of them come down to you not knowing which science the study of thermodynamics is part of, and others come down to you not understanding the basic laws of relativity. Others come down to you not knowing the difference between DNA and the genetic code, or indeed even what codes are. The fact that you are oblivious to the function and purpose of codes is ironic, given your username, wouldn't you say?

Ah Mathfan, you are a creature to be pitied. The only thing holding you together emotionally is the false belief that attacking people with misrepresentations of their own arguments is somehow a victory, when their actual argument has torn you to pieces. It's amusing really, because you actually have to intellectually delude yourself in order to satisfy your own raging narcissistic personality disorder.

1 point

I think Tolkien was remarkable at building a world that we could all imagine with characters that stay in our minds and hearts for a while. He was also VERY good at showing there wasn't a clear cut good vs. evil, even the good characters had major flaws and the one character who would very well be accurately classified as an actual hero doesn't even take center stage. Sam.

If I recall correctly Orc where once elves who were tortured and twisted until they became mad. While at one point they may have been noble creatures, their blood lust and mindless obedience is what makes them bad or villains now.