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Is belief in God for the GREATER GOOD?
This is difficult to create in a 2 sided debate (and to make this post neutral), but first I'll try and explain the question.
Let's look at this from the point of view that you are about to start a religion. You do not believe in it, nor do you believe in God but you see the world around you in despair and want to make some rules. However you feel people will not take these rules seriously and need a way to enforce them. This enforcer is God.
Forgetting whether or not you believe in God, what is God's role to humans? After creating us the universe (or not) is the concept or belief in God what is needed to keep people in order? Let's say there was no God. When going against the rules of the religion how would you be punished? Jail? Community work? Parole? Fines? Or a limitless amount of pain for an infinite amount of time? (to burn in hell). Is that a much larger deterrent than something imagineable and altogether not so terrible? For a follower, is God's existance much more influential than the country's police and courts?
So to get to the original point, should the idea of God be promoted whether or not you believe in Him? Even if He IS a lie, would it be better to to have this lie promote morals or if not God, some kind of 'myth'? Whether real or not, is belief in God for the GREATER GOOD?
Two sides are - Yes, belief in the existance of God whether God exists or not has MORE benefits than lack of belief in God.
- No, belief in the existance of God whether God exists or not has LESS benefits than lack of belief in God.
P.S. - Don't make this an argument about religions. This is purely about the belief in God and not different religions beliefs and opinions in God. No talk on Christianity, Islam, Hinduism - as that is NOT the question.
i firmly accept with this statement.we always even in our day to day life we pray god only for goodness and even we believe that if we pray it is for greater good.as you have stated it is not matter of religions.
I firmly believe that for MOST people in the world it is best that God exists. Purely because the consequences of crossing God are much worse than the laws.
You can escape from the law, you can challenge the law, you can appeal against the law. The law is not perfect. The law has it's flaws.
GOD IS PERFECT (in the believer's mind).
You cannot disagree with God as he is MUCH smarter, wiser etc. he is not corrupted and gives what the person deserves. What's better/worse is that He takes everything the person has done at the end of their life - all the Karma added up at the end of life. So not just one bad incident, but fairly judges him/her after all of their actions.
Yeah, but what about when that perfect, smarter, wiser, fair and uncorruptable god orders up a jihad . . . an Inquisition . . . a witch-hunt . . . a human sacrifice . . . a Crusade?
What about when that god's followers determine that anyone who doesn't believe in their perfect, smart, wise, fair god is a dangerous heretic who should be put to death immediately and in a horrific way?
You're bringing in the acts of certain people who have USED religion to perform certain acts. Not only have I said that we should be keeping religions out of this, but also that you cannot blame religion for how people have used it. Several wars were not caused by religion but I don't see you arguing against athieism for that...
Perhaps I am not getting your point, because your original argument seems to me to rest entirely on how belief in a "perfect, wise" creator being affects human behavior. And my point is, not always in good ways. Sometimes in good ways (as I have posted on at greater length), and sometimes in very horrible ways. The question wasn't about the existence of a god, but about belief in a god, and as an extention how such beliefs affect human actions.
What about when that god's followers determine that anyone who doesn't believe in their perfect, smart, wise, fair god is a dangerous heretic who should be put to death immediately and in a horrific way?
You put to much emphasis on man. Man will always make mistakes Christian or not. Our model on how to be a Christian is how Christ walked the earth. He was peaceful never forced anything upon anybody never put anyone to death for not believing in him. Anything other than this is an abomination on God, one of the ten commandments though shall not kill. I have never known of any Christian who is a firm believing to ask for anybody to be put to death.
This whole discussion is about how belief in a god or gods affects humankind -- not about your personal belief system. Emphasis on man's reactions and how a belief in a god affects said reactions is, in fact, the entire topic of the debate here.
one of the ten commandments [is] thou[ ] shall not kill.
One of the other 10 commandments - in fact the 1st -- is that "thou shalt have no other gods" business that is the source of so many holy wars.
As a point of interest, the original text of the Sixth Commandment read "thou shalt not kill other Israelites." You could kill all the Canaanites, Babylonians, Akkadians et. al. that you liked.
I have never known of any Christian . . . to ask for anybody to be put to death
You've never known of Christians asking for someone to be put to death? Then you've not read history. Start with imperial Rome and its campaigns throughout Europe and Asia, and also pay particular attention to the Reconquista, all nine of the Crusades into western Asia, the Saxon Wars and spread of the Holy Roman Empire, the Baltic Crusades, the Inquisition, the Reformation, the European witchcraze, the conquest of the Americas, the McCarthy era, and the bombing of abortion clinics by wingnutty members of "Christian Century." I'd be mighty surprised if you could find a single ten-year block anywhere in the last 1500 years during which Christians were not asking for some other group of people to be put to death.
The Romans persecuted Christians the Romans weren't Christians or even Catholic yet. Where are you making this stuff up the sixth commandment never said that you could kill Canaanites and Babylonians et. As far as the putting people to death I don't associate Catholics as Christians. True Christian's never asked to put people to death. One of the main reasons why pilgrims left England was because of there freedom of religion to not be persecuted by Catholics. If you look up the history of Catholicism about 300 A.D. Constantin fused together pagan and Christianity there you have the whack Catholics. I cut and pasted from Wiki below. Look I know the argument is not about a specific religion like the one I believe in. Yes if you encompass all religions that call themselves Christian than yes your death statement is correct. A lot of cults out there call themselves Christian but they are a wolf in sheep's clothing just like the Catholics are making up there own rules and laws.
Ancient Roman religion encompasses the collection of beliefs and rituals practiced in ancient Rome in the form of cult practices. It is therefore the practical counterpart of Roman mythology. Within the Roman world, religious practice varied enough so that one might speak of Roman religions. The cult practices of Rome extended across Italy with the rise of the Roman Empire. These religions were polytheistic, and as such are sometimes referred to as "pagan".
1) The Christians persecuted the pagan Romans with far, far more fervor than the pagan Romans had when "persecuting" Christians. Persecution of Christians prior to the conversion of Rome was occasional and local; the laws were directed primarily at clergymembers and at "church property." Extermination of non-Christians after the conversion of Rome, on the other hand, was a wholesale pogrom that lasted until Rome itself was no more.
2) The original Sixth Commandment used a word for "murder" that only applied to the unjustified killing of Israelites. By definition, one could not "murder" a non-Israelite. So the commandment is more accurately translated as "don't kill your own." Had it been a blanket prohibition on killing, the Israelites would have been in violation of it quite routinely, as they attacked plenty of neighboring non-Jews.
3) If "true Christians" never asked for anybody to be put to death, then by your own admission the entirety of your religion has been a big steaming pile o' horsehockey throughout its whole history, because Christians have been doing that since Christianity first appeared, and they still are.
4) Not associating Catholics with Christians is looney-tunes. Catholics are the original, biggest, and most powerful Christian denomination. And the fact that "one of the main reasons why pilgrims left England was because of their freedom of religion to not be persecuted by Catholics" totally supports my point. Not only have the Christians been killing the non-Christians since time out of mind, but when they run out of non-Christians to kill they turn on each other. The Protestants and Catholics in England were equally brutal towards one another. Then the Protestants came to the Americas and massacred the native folks here.
5) You've reduced your position to "Christian equals me, and anybody who thinks exactly like me." Most self-defined "Christians" would not agree. You are not the authority on who is and isn't a "Christian." Hell, in my opinion, NONE of you are real "Christians" since you all blatantly ignore the teachings of Christ, who advocated giving up all worldly possessions and living an aesthetic lifestyle devoted to god. But leave that as it may, objectively the "Christians" are the people who define themselves as "Christians," and they've killed loads and loads of folks. So nope, still not buying your BS ("belief system") here.
And FYI, the original text of the Sixth Commandment read "thou shalt not kill other Israelites." You could kill all the Canaanites, Babylonians, Akkadians et. al. that you liked.
That is pure Grade AAA bull crap. For there was a period of the Israelite history wherein they were Babylonians. And no, the original text of the sixth commandment was originally translated into English as : thou shalt do no murder. The commandment did not imply exceptions for the commandment. If you were to read the next chapter of Exodus that follows the Covenant with Israel, you will find that murderers are to be killed, including Israelites.
Oh well, I would rather be cursed than blessed by a priest.
Amen!
;)
(I joke a little. Really it would depend on what faith the priest practiced and what the curse or blessing was meant to do. But it was a great opportunity to use the word "amen" in a totally tongue-in-cheek fashion.)
"I have never known of any Christian who is a firm believing to ask for anybody to be put to death." - if Osama bin Laden was caught tomorrow how many people would be speaking out for him not to be killed?
if the non-divine punishment was not enough then atheists would have a much higher rate of criminality which is not the case
only by challenging the law have we progressed this far - otherwise we would still have slavery and complete ownership and subjugation of women (yes, it is in the new testament not just the old - see 1st Timothy)
If I don't believe in god I go to hell for all eternity right?
Well what if I was the nicest man on the face of the planet. I donated a lot, I cared a lot about strangers. But I don't believe in god. So what happens? I still go to hell for all eternity.
You can't tell me God isn't perfect. One of the characteristics of God is perfection. You're too narrow minded to even begin to grasp the concept of God. A bling man with his hand on an elephant.
Religion is something you CAN argue. Only some religions would say you'd go to hell for eternity - not all.
I've tried to make the point that without a real God there can be no good because of the grounding question. Apparently some people aren't familiar with this question. So I've included a link that explains it and demonstrates why there can be no good if there is not a real God. And please don't commit the genetic fallacy of dismissing the argument because it comes from a Christian source. If you disagree please do so on the merits of the argument, not the source.
the "grounding question" only tries to play semantic word games - if someone asks why a god would allow 'evil' then they seize upon the word evil and say that for objective evil to exist means god has to exist. The argument is silly since using any word but 'objective evil' defeats it (pain, suffering, collectively agreed upon evil, etc.)
Put 100 devout people in separate rooms and ask them 100 moral questions (e.g. if a pregnant woman has cancer, can she get chemotherapy to likely save her life if it would likely kill the baby?) - you will get many different answers and different justifications - so if there is objective morality, humans cannot converse with god and figure out what it is.
We would still be left with subjective morality only we would be judged by a god who has an objective morality and sends people to the lake of fire based on a morality they can't know.
Everything works the way it would if there was no god, therefore there's no reason to believe there is a god. Just like there's no reason to believe in Zeus or apollo....Etc
Clearly, the author of this debate is ignorant of the meaning of the term God, or 'doG' spelled backwards. Why? There are many gods and each god is the God of its believers.
Hell, almost all believers and non-believers alike are unaware of the definition of god.
Now, in answer to this debate I submit the following: A belief never equates to greater goodness, in fact, a belief of good is always a consequence of a belief in one's importance.
Or, said this way, 'Because I believe such and such, more individuals receive the good of my belief.' Extremely irrational I would say!
You've missed the point haven't you. I haven't at one point said I myself believe in God. Even though I do. Not very strongly... but I do.
So you're telling me the world would be better off believing there was no God? EVER.
Again you've missed the point of this debate. In a debate.. you don't just make one statement.. you got to have something to back it up. All you've done is make up a sentence.
I almost guarantee Lawnman understands your debate just fine. He's pretty bright.
I know I understand this debate just fine.
but your description does indeed show your hand that you believe in a god.
Though attempting to be altruistic in that you say as your example the author of a religion does not himself believe it,
the assumption of the reasoning behind an author of religion if there is no god to author it them self (that people were out of control)
is both unknowable, and quite debatable.
There is no way to know if 1. whether people ever stopped acting out of control because of the introduction of a god. 2. whether people would stop acting out of control because of the introduction of a god as opposed to any other method of persuasion.
The assumption that even if there were not a god, there must at least be a reason to believe in a god,
is a deep deep indoctrination within all but a small small percent of humans on earth.
It shows you believe in a god.
I submit that laws work just fine in and of themselves. People do not need now, and never have needed a god or hope of eternal life or fear of eternal damnation. That religion is a decoration and another means of power, sometimes good, sometimes bad, but unnecessary either way.
You want atheists to argue while accepting a premise that most of us do not accept at all.
I not only believe a god is not for the greater good. I don't believe it ever would be under any circumstance. Not even the circumstance you wrote in the debate description.
One thing though.. don't take the debate description as my main point. I didn't want to put too much there as it would've all pointed towards my side of the argument rather than just give a brief intro to what we should be talking about.
So let's go into your talk about how law work just fine. Laws are changing all the time right? Now if they were good, then they wouldn't need to be changed. And if they have been changed then whose to say that they do not need to be changed again? God's Words will always be right till the end of time. We just don't see it, but in the end we will see it. So we can be here right now running around trying to make it all right, or we can follow Gods advice and we'll get there in the end. It's hard and loooooong to explain but ask me what God says that is wrong (one of those rules thats in all religions) and then tell me that if what he says isn't wrong... why should we not follow him.
God's Words will always be right till the end of time. We just don't see it, but in the end we will see it. So we can be here right now running around trying to make it all right, or we can follow Gods advice and we'll get there in the end.
lol, alright, that's really funny.
1. If what the religious think god wants is always changing, and so are always changing how they act (don't eat pork, okay eat pork, have hookers, okay now be celibate, stone people to death, okay turn the other cheek)
lol, then how is that any different than how laws change Kinda?
It's no different I'm very afraid.
I mean, you say his word never changes, we just don't always get it. But you do see that there is no way for you to know that don't you? Whatever, it's really lame. If no one knows what god is really saying, then it's just as likely he doesn't exist.
Jeez, I hate debating the religious.
The fact is, even if that god does exist, it's a ridiculous way to run things. I'll stick to laws, they're based on living people we see and who feel, live, and die, not some dude no one has ever seen and random people (who are usually schizos or con-artists) say said to do this or that.
2. And listen, I have read the silly bible probably a dozen times growing up, I was raised Ultra super religious, church 6 days a week, I took 18 credits in religious studies at a very good University, I dated a Baptist preachers daughter all through high school and not only had to sit through the lame sermons, but had to discuss the meanings for hours and hours and hours.
There's nothing about the Christian religion I care to learn, that I probably don't already know, unless it's from a historical or anthropological point of view. And if it's from one of those points of view, I probably already know it.
What did I say? Don't bring religion in. But you did it again. You do have a point though.
What you're getting wrong is what religions are INTERPRETING about God's word, not what it is.
You are basing everything on Christianity and that is why your posts on this topic is kind of worthless. I'm not here to discuss Christianity's views on God. I'm here to discuss God.
this would be far more helpful if you said what exactly you were refering to in your responses, but
I was using Christianity as an example of a religion in response to you mentioning how laws are always chaning.
You brought religion into it when you used how laws change as an example of how it would be better to have the "word of god" because it does not change.
And this is the second time in this debate that you first brought up religion, then when a response was made to your introduction to it, you say "this isn't about religion, this is about god."
At any rate. This is just dumb, because the only people espousing the existance of a god are of one religion or another, and there is no religion that does not change, just as laws change, so my point is incredibly valid, regardless of which religion's version of the "word of god" I use as an example.
At the end of the day, it's just people.
And yeah, I think people who think they hear the word of god are usually schizos of con-artists, because he's not real, therefore they're hearing voices or just making stuff up.
I'm sorry this is getting retarded but when did I bring up a particular religion or religion at all (apart from the fact that religion = following God). You're the one whining about Christianity and all the evil it's done to you etc. etc. Do you have any knowledge of other religions? Or other religious ideals outside of Abrahmic faiths?
Who are you to say whether or not God is real? Nobody can answer that question because nobody knows. you THINK you know, but you don't in the same way i THINK God exists. You can't prove or disprove God.
You've missed the point haven't you. I haven't at one point said I myself believe in God. Even though I do. Not very strongly... but I do.
Nah, I have been known to miss ‘the point’ occasionally, but not so on this occasion. In fact, I have identified the fundamental premise of your debate (more on this later).Also, you do err in your inference that I implied you believe in God.
So you're telling me the world would be better off believing there was no God? EVER.
Non-sense, what I stated was intended to arouse the minds of those who read my post; it points at the self-evident facts of human nature. I was not attempting to govern or persuade the minds of others, but rather shine a light upon something all men can recognize. Why? All men and women more readily enjoy the benefits of their own critical thoughts than the benefit of some other’s line of reasoning.
Now back to the fundamental(not stated)premise of your debate.
Demagoguery is good for mankind.
I will not put all of the pieces together for you; I will present the facts of my argument without making an argument.
Demagogia (Gr)-control of the people.
Demagogue- a person who tries to stir up the people by appeals to emotion, prejudice, religion, god, government,etc. in order to become a leader and achieve selfish ends.
Demagogos-leader of the people.
And finally, the word God is a mere tool of a demagogue.
My first reply was intended to implicate all would-be demagogues who would use the word ‘god’ to facilitate there own selfish ends of demagoguery.
Your debate is nothing more than the illustration of demagoguery without the use of the word demagoguery while at the same time a debate about whether or not a demagogue should use the word God .
BTW, ignorance is nothing to be ashamed of, for all men are ignorant of more than they are not ignorant of. (No intended hostility on my part if you have taken offence to something I’ve stated.)
Also, you do err in your inference that I implied you believe in God.
Oh yeah...
A lot of bs...
Your debate is nothing more than the illustration of demagoguery without the use of the word demagoguery while at the same time a debate about whether or not a demagogue should use the word God .
Finally, we have a winner!.. Kinda. You're right. (although I never knew the word demagoguery) Right so you DO know what my debate is about, but I don't know you're position.So it's kinda useless to argue when you don't have a position.
You're right. Some of the time. Demagoguery is use for ones own benefit. However do you agree that if it was for the benefit of mankind then it is for the greater good? Forget history, religious sects etc. If demagoguery DID benefit mankind, then it would be for the greater good? Your argument is that it is used for the benefit of the demagogue. Fairplay, this can go on forever but again you're basing it, not on God, but on people. If people did it for mankinds good.... then you would say its for the greater good, but if people did it for mankinds bad, then its not for the greater good. Amirite?...
We are now beginning to come full circle, back to the point of my first post. What is the definition of god? The answer to this question necessarily governs the conclusions of our answers to this debate.
Would you care to discuss a proper definition of 'god'?
I will reply to your post soon. I was unaware of your reply until now. I will share with you though that the definition you submitted will not denote the efforts of a man.
Yes, my definition of 'god' denotes man as well as a supreme cause.
Without question God is in favor of men who love him. Christians give more money to charities to than all others combined. Greater is He who is in me than he who is in the world. John 4 4: Our founding fathers built this nation based on God, whether people want to accept it or not it's all over the and written into the constitution for people that don't agree with the doctrine than move to another country where there Constitution fits your beliefs more. It's not just by coincidence that we have become the most powerful nation on every level in the shortest amount of time in history. However the further we as a nation get further away from God the more kaos and trouble we will face as a nation, and that is happening now.
Without question God is in favor of men who love him. Christians give more money to charities to than all others combined.
I disagree. What is your source? I'll bet any person of any religion is just as likely as the next to give to charity. Atheists and agnostics included.
Greater is He who is in me than he who is in the world. John 4 4:
What's the point of quoting the Bible in a debate about god? Who is that for? Anyone who thinks like you doesn't need it, and any who don't think like you only thinks it's silly.
Our founding fathers built this nation based on God, whether people want to accept it or not it's all over the and written into the constitution for people that don't agree with the doctrine than move to another country where there Constitution fits your beliefs more.
No dumb dumb, our country was founded on religious freedom, not religion. Most of our forefathers were Deist, which means: "The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation."
You bible thumpers just decided to high-jack the whole thing. "In God We Trust" wasn't printed on money until 1957... 1957! for crying out loud! The only mention any of our founding documents make of a god are two instances where they refer to a "creator" which could mean any damn thing and in no way discounts the possibility of an absence of one.
I mean, Benjamin Franklin once said light houses were more useful than churches. Jefferson wrote his own version of the New Testament omitting all of the Jesus stuff. Regardless of what you happen to believe, arguing our country was founded on religion is revisionist at best, and quite against the spirit of the Constitution.
It's not just by coincidence that we have become the most powerful nation on every level in the shortest amount of time in history.
Again, this religious revision of our past is a recent phenomenon, and we were doing quite well before you annoying drones begin shoving it down everyone's throat. I mean, name one "religious" state that isn't a third world country. Every successful nation in history has separated church and State, including ours. This Evangelical push to make everyone drink the kool-aid can only end in disaster..
However the further we as a nation get further away from God the more kaos and trouble we will face as a nation, and that is happening now.
bs. 1. there's no sign that this country is now any further away from your invisible dude in the sky than ever before, in fact, the religious have more power now than at any time in our history. 2. The troubles facing our nation are all real problems that praying won't help,
Economy = lack of over site,
War in Iraq = a president lying to us about WMD's (who was one of your types by the way, real christianly of him),
Afghanistan = 9/11,
Those are the three main problems we have. Notice god plays no role in any of them... well except of course that the attacks on us on 9/11 were in the name of a god.
I respect your opinion that's just the way you feel. I hardly ever see or hear about agnostics giving anything to any charity. It's a given fact the Christians and Organizations help more than any other. If tomorrow God came down and took all the the believers away and there was no more Christians this world would go to hell in a hand basket fast. I guess the argument is for the greater good. For years we have asked God to get out of our schools and our life and our country. So when something bad happens like 9/11 we all of a sudden ask God why did he remove his protection. Total Hypocrisy
1. again, there's 0 proof Christians give any more to charity than anyone else. Where are your statistics? There's no reason to think that Christians give more than a Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, or Atheist. There's no proof. It's your opinion, and your opinion is not based on anything at all.
2. If tomorrow god came and took all the Christians I'd be super glad because you guys are annoying. That aside though, there's no such thing so unfortunately it's not going to happen. If it did though, everyone would get along just fine. I mean, you people didn't even start showing up on this planet until 300 years after that guy Jesus (who may have never even existed) died, and everything was just peachy without you.
3. Yeah, god is a private thing, and you have the right to believe in god or the easter bunny or big foot or whatever the hell you want. Problem is, Christians don't want religious freedom you nuts want everyone to believe your own insanity. But nope, sorry, the constitution is clear. Church and State are separate, and god should not be in public schools in any form whatsoever. Start your own school if you don't like it, but don't try to put it on everyone else.
3. So when something bad happens like 9/11 we all of a sudden ask God why did he remove his protection. Total Hypocrisy
You dumbass. 9/11 had nothing to do with "god's protection"
it was terrorists.
God has never stopped a single tragedy in the history of the world, and he's not about to start just because you force your silly beliefs on other people.
And your insinuation that somehow people die because of what they believe is not only incredibly stupid. But offensive, evil, and frankly why so many bright people like myself have gone from indifferent about your silly cult, to downright hating it.
Without question God is in favor of men who love him.
Well, that's just a crazy bald assertion, and if you want to believe it OK, but it's not a relevant point. Without question Ma'at is in favor of those who follow her laws; without question Juno is in favor of wronged wives; without question Ishtar is in favor of gettin' it on. Those are neat points too, but like yours, not real relevant nor provable as actual fact.
Our founding fathers built this nation based on God . . . written into the constitution
Well, then, I am REALLY confused as to just what Article VI and the First Amendment are doing in our Constitution. Because the only mentions of "religion" that I remember in the Constitution are the one that starts with "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of . . ." and the one that reads "no religious test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office." And the word "god" doesn't appear in the Constitution AT ALL.
I hardly ever see or hear about agnostics giving anything to any charity.
I hardly ever see or hear about Christians who aren't pathological. Following your line of "it's what I want to see therefore it must be true," all Christians must be looney-tunes.
On the other hand, I know tons of Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Bah'ai, neopagans, agnostics, and atheists who volunteer in their communities. I'm most certainly not a Christian and I volunteer. Do you actually know any non-Christians upon whom to base an opinion about which religious communities are and are not doing charity work?
It's a given fact the Christians . . .
It's a given fact that the Christians make crap up and claim it's a given fact. For this we actually do have proof: creationism, for example.
If tomorrow God came down and took all the the believers away . . .
. . . it would do wonders for the economy. The rest of us will divvy up your property and take your old jobs.
But that aside, if tommorrow all the Christians disappeared with their wrongheaded notions about how humanity is at the center of creation and is destined to "rule" the earth but is also somehow innately flawed because their god doesn't know how to make people properly, the world would tick along just fine, and I firmly believe that humanity would be far better off without that particular collective delusion.
when something bad happens like 9/11
So . . . the Christian god and Osama bin Laden sided together on the whole 9-11 thing. Doesn't that sorta suggest that your god has converted to Islam?
At any rate, it's pretty ludicrous to assert that if everybody just claps their hands and says "I do believe in fairies" loudly enough that your god will keep anything "bad" from ever happening. Bad things happen to pretty much everybody, Christian or otherwise. I would hope that your quest for faith would lead you to something with a little more depth than "eek don't let anything bad get me."
I mean, seriously, did you just put forth the argument that you worship a being who would blow up a building in a fit of pique because not enough people like him? I realize your religious mythos includes Sodom and Gommorah and all that so perhaps it's not inconsistent, but honestly, your god sounds kinda like Timothy McVeigh there, bud. That's not praiseworthy, that's morally reprehensible.
Your point there reminds me of a story an anthropology professor of mine used to tell.
This professor lived and studied among the Karen people of Tibet, whose traditional religion is more or less a mix of polytheism and animism. One day some Christian missionaries happened along. The Karen don't prothelytize, so at first they listened politely to the missionaries and then told them it was nice that they were so excited about their god. Then the missionaries suggested that the Karen should worship their god too, and the Karen elders weren't so keen on that idea.
So after much talk, one of the missionaries told the Karen elders a parable. "There was a great boat on the ocean, and one man on it was a Christian; and the boat was capsized and sank, but God saved the one Christian man."
So the Karen elders told the missionaries that they wanted to talk among themselves about this parable for a bit, and they would come back with their answer at the end of the day.
At the end of the day, after meeting together and discussing the Christian parable, the Karen elders called for the missionaries and told them: "After discussing your story all day, we have decided that we are not impressed. We have considered the matter very thoroughly, and we are convinced that our gods could have saved all of the people on the boat."
I'm sorry you have so much disbelief. Obviously you put a lot of energy to justify in your own-self about any faith towards God. I'm just going dispute some of the comments about if the world would be better of if Christians where gone. All I have to say is think of a places in the world where there is no God and you will only see death, poverty and despair. The evolution is a farce. Do you remember the cover of national geographic when they had a ape like skull saying that they have found the missing link. Of course that was found out to be a fraud. Point I'm making is, all you have to do is look around and look at the perfect order of nature the extreme complexity and to not even think that there is a creator designer behind it that it is just a mere coincidence. It's just stupid to think that all you are is just a piece of walking flesh do to the fact that evolution is the only reason you are here. And that all of nature with it's perfect order is because. Just look up the number of charities and the number is overwhelmingly Christian based probably the number would be actually more because a lot of them are but are afraid of persecution from Church and State laws.
You have denial issues I think deep down you really feel that all of these things are possible but you have chosen to block it out and harden yourself for the truth.
You know what makes me laugh is that you have Agnostic historians looking in the bible for references to help them find ancient cities and places. Take Troy for example just to name one out the dozens. They thought it was a myth until they discovered it referenced passages out of the bible to help them. Dude totally have taken the whole 9/11 thing to far. Pretty insulting of course I don't believe those you said. All I was saying is that we have been relatively safe as a nation and my faith believes that yes God does protect us nothing wrong with that. Bad things do happen no matter what trials and tribulations are a part of life.
As far as using you storied and other quotes from people and Tibet tribes whatever. I don't care what they think. I don't look to others to convince me of what I know and believe I question man when I hear a preacher or someone else taking about their Ideas. All I know is that there is a God and creator of us and everything. It's my own personal believe. Shame on those missionaries for using a lame story about that which is not true. If they where Mormon that would sound like a BS story from them.
think of a places in the world where there is no God
Good grief. Find me a place on earth where there is no god or gods. Just because other parts of the world don't espouse your religion does not mean they do not espouse a religion. I myself am quite religious, although I doubt my faith has a terrific amount in common with yours.
and you will only see death, poverty and despair
Because Latin America, which is very very Catholic, has none of the above; whereas inexplicably, the non-Christian countries of Singapore, Brunei, Kuwait, Liechtenstein, and Qatar are all among the 10 highest per-capita GDPs.
evolution is a farce
No, evolution is a very widely accepted scientific theory, and if science is incompatible with your religion then your religion is simpleminded. "If science were ever found to contradict Buddhism, then Buddhism would have to change" -- The Dalai Lama
probably the number would be actually more because a lot of them are but are afraid of persecution from Church and State laws.
AHAHAHAHAHAHA! Wait, lemme -- AHAHAHAHAHA! lemme catch my -- AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!
Did you REALLY just suggest that Christians do not found more charities because they are afraid of STATE PERSECUTION OF CHARITY ORGANIZATIONS?
AHAHAHAHAHAHAAA ... Damn, that's just funny.
You have denial issues
Nope. In fact, again, I am quite religious, and also quite committed to a scientific understanding of the universe. I just do not subscribe to YOUR beliefs.
Actually it's not funny. The case in Florida where school kids where raising money for a benefit and there where teachers present. What makes it worse is that it was in a church off school property and spontaneously someone said lets say a prayer to bless this food. Well do you know what happened board member who was there at the church but obviously not a Christian was offended and reported those teachers and they where looking at fines in the thousands plus 6 months in jail. It went to the Florida St supreme court where the judge smartly ruled against the claim and they where found not to be in violation. This is just one case of many. I'm sure that there are other religions that pray but why only are the Christians the ones that are being persecuted?
Agnostic it's biased the whole system is Agnostic we abide by Agnostic rules in everyday life especially in schools, essentially we practice your religion where there is no belief and when there's a crazy wig nut Agnostic that wants to throw teachers in jail for six months because of their inherent freedoms you go crazy.
Evolution has not been proved it's a theory nowhere except for a completely biased person would say that evolution has been proved. There is a whole debate on that alone. There are numerous scientist that believe in intelligent design and go as far as Micro evolution which I believe in and is in-line with creation. Macro evolution where a Giraffe one day came from the see is as unlikely as you or I beating Tiger Woods in a golf match. Not going to happen. God says that we are created in is own image which is why our minds are godlike. If evolution is true than there would be more species with our capability to think and to rationalize. This fact alone baffles many evolutionary theorist for they don't have an answer for. So they do what Darwin did just make stuff up and throw clay at a human skull to fill the gaps.
Oh, yes, religious rights OTHER THAN YOURS are just bullcrap, yeah.
NO, you CAN'T interject religion into a school function -- but people do it all the time. U of TX regularly prays before football games and has a school motto invoking "Gabriel's horn." At a state school. This too is just "one case of many." And their actions are FAT illegal, but have they been "persecuted" for it? NOOOO.
If the church wants to hold a charity drive, great - pray away. If the public school wants to do it, then public prayer is inappropriate, because we have that whole disestablishmentarianism thing. Would you have been cool with it if it had been your kids at that function, and the teacher had said "Let's make an offering to Ellegua" or "Here kids, ring these bells in honor of the generosity of Ishtar"? Or how about if the teachers stopped the activity so everybody could face Mecca and bow down and chant "Allahu Akbar" a few times?
You want religion in your kids' school, then send your kids to a parochial school. That's what parochial schools are flippin' for. But our public schools are not places for you to indoctrinate other people's children.
Making Christians follow the law is not "persecution." You guys just want "special rights", e.g., the right to inflict your religious beliefs and practices on the rest of us. And that, my friend, is persecution behavior.
You take things really extreme. I'm one of those that is not trying to force schools to pray not at all. I just get upset when it's completely away from it and someone tells. It reminds me of the movie 1984. As far as the Texas thing I familiar with that being a part of the bible belt no one objected it was only one person who complained and affected the rights of hundreds that preferred to pray. Overwhelmingly the community was upset what happened to democracy even in religion where the wants and needs of the many out ways the needs of the few. Right now it's going the other way where the few are outweighing the many I guess that's what makes great news. Media loves feuds.
I just get upset when it's completely away from it and someone tells.
That's funny, I'd think it was in general a good idea to encourage kids to "tell" when an adult in an authority position forces them to do something illegal and in violation of their rights.
As far as the Texas thing I familiar with that being a part of the bible belt no one objected
Oh, OK, since nobody objected to them breaking the law it's OK. But when somebody DOES object to the school breaking the law in Florida, then it's the objection that is not OK, whereas breaking the law should still be OK. That makes no sense whatsoever at all.
it was only one person who complained
Well, that's not "no one," then, is it? That's someone whose civil rights were violated. Whereas those "hundreds" DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO FORCE PUBLIC PRAYER AT PUBLIC SCHOOLS. Their "rights" weren't violated one bit because the law explicitly says that they have no right to do that, whereas the complaining student does have a right to insist that they don't.
where the wants and needs of the many out ways the needs of the few
That's actually a principle of Star Trek, not government. The wants of the many do NOT in any case outweigh the rights of the few. That would be antithetical to our Constitution, and it's not what Spock meant either.
I think you got confused when I said when it's completely away from it and someone tells, I was referring to the school teachers attending a function at the church it was completely away from school and on their own time.
No, I'm not confused. I think you're unclear on the law.
If it was a school function, then it doesn't matter whether or not it was on school property; the critical issue is whether it's school-sponsored.
If it was not a school function, then there's no law being violated. If it is a school function, they've got no business holding a prayer circle during it.
Again I ask, would you be cool with it if your kids left the school campus for a charity drive and were then instructed to bow to Allah or chant Hare Krishna or spit rum and tobacco in honor of Ellegua? I'm betting the answer is "no."
Similarly, the Muslims, Hindus, Santeria et. al. aren't real keen on having their kids indoctrinated with foreign faiths.
It is flat inappropriate to inject prayer into a public school function, on or off school grounds, period. Prayer is what our churches, temples, synagogues, mosques, and other places of worship are for. It is not what our public schools are for.
Pray all you want on your own time -- in your house, on the street, at your place of worship, in your car, in the park . . . pick any event NOT sponsored by state authorities at any location NOT owned or operated by the state, and have at. (Your example fails the first prong: a public school function is by definition "sponsored by state authorities.") But using the authority of the state to promote or enforce a religious belief is just plain illegal.
Nobody broke the law in Florida that's why the teachers where exonerated. The teachers who where being prosecuted by a wing nut weren't even the ones who asked to pray it was a member of a church. Remember this was off school property and the teachers where off school time they were there in support only. And it was in a church. Put aside any religion on this, this was a impediment on the first amendment.
You and I have debated many things on this lets just agree to disagree I'm not forcing anything thats not my style and it shouldn't be anyones style. Talking about just the fact that on a daily basis that we are losing freedoms everyday and that a something like this would have gone as far as it did is ridiculous not to mention the tax dollars spent for the courts.
No, it's not an impediment to the First Amendment in any way, shape, or form. No one is being restrained from practicing or believing in their religion in any way. You just can't use the authority of the state to force your religion on other people. That is in fact what the First Amendment says. What on earth is so difficult about that to grasp?
Whether the students are on school property or off it is irrelevant. Whether the activity is school-sponsored or not is the critical issue.
If your daughter gets raped on a field trip you can goddamn well still sue the school. If your son cracks his skull open during a school-sponsored extracurricular, you can damn well still sue the school. And if teachers start imposing prayer on students at a school-sponsored event, you can damn well still sue the school, because the school is responsible for a civil rights violation.
Stop down voting me i like having a debate but if everytime I leave a comment you down vote I'm just going to stop. i have stopped down voting you. It's almost an unfair format in here being one of the few and only conservative Christians in this entire CreateDebate it's like being fed to the Lions. That's why any conservative in here gets jumped all over, there's nothing to argue agianst when all of you our on the same belief. You guys need someone like me to make it interesting.
"Fed to the lions"? Because people disagree with you? Oh please.
You sound a wee bit paranoid, mate. I'm not downvoting you, and nobody is "persecuting" you either. You've been quite free to express your opinions. If you don't like the fact that people can respond to your opinions by voting them up or down or by posting their own counter-arguments, you are in the wrong forum.
nowhere except for a completely biased person would say that evolution has been proved
And nowhere did anyone say that evolution has been "proven." I said: "evolution is a very widely accepted scientific theory." The "debate" over the validity of the theory is considered by science to be, well, I think the technical term is "retarded."
None of your points about evolution are vaguely even coherent. Of course mammals and other modern taxa evolved over hundreds of millions of years from much earlier sea-dwelling organisms. It's the "hundreds of millions of years" part that's crucial here, mate. And no, there's no reason that there would be more animals with higher-level thinking capabilities, although in fact there are good arguments to be made for a number of animals having varying degrees of "reasoning" power -- gorillas, chimps, elephants, big cats, and even parrots are quite bright compared to many other critters: bright enough to measure on "our" scale to the point where we've seen higher-level thinking behaviors akin to our own in all of them (examples include: use of sign language, use of sign language to communicate experiences that happenned prior to the acquition of sign language, primates teaching other primates to sign, the ability to identify one's own reflection as being one's own reflection, emotional expression, representational image-making . . . the list is really quite extensive). Also, dolphins are the only animal in the fossil record to have both more complex brains and a greater brain-to-body-size ratio than we do, and we really haven't a notion what they're up to with all that grey matter. But that's not really the point, since evolution functions so that better-adapted animals will, over time, reproduce more succesfully and, over greater amounts of time, diversify further. A shark doesn't need to be smart; a shark is perfectly adapted to its environment. The evolution of brains is not baffling at all; it's actually pretty well understood.
I think, even if God doesnt exist, which im not saying he does...I believe 100% He does, but even if he didn't the mere thought of his existance has made many people morally better, and just happier and nicer.
Yes, there can be no good without God. With out an author, everything then becomes a matter of personal preference and interpretation. There is no objective standard by which to judge things. You can't ask the maker of the product how it should be used. It means man has no purpose for which he was made and therefore there can be no deviation from a norm.
But worse than that is if there is no life after death, then justice becomes a sham. Those who go on shooting sprees and then take their lives escape justice. Hitler escaped justice and got off.
But the worst thing is that our lives become pointless and without meaning or value. If we come from nothing and return to nothing, folks we are nothing. Our lives have no value. Then there is no difference between gassing termites and gassing 6 million Jews.
That ought to scare any sane person. Because then you become a commodity for the state to use and consume for it's purposes. There is a correlation between Communism and atheism. For further proof pick up a copy of The Guinness Book of World Records and check out the greatest mass murderers of all time: Atheistic regimes, Stalin, Mao etc etc. There is a reason Russia is experiencing a surge in religion. This question is not a theoretical one for them; they know the answer from first hand experience.
I do however think the greater question is why do we have to protect ourselves from ourselves. Take the Ten Commandments, it ought to stagger us that God has to tell us not to murder and steal. Wow!! that ought to be a given. We shouldn't have to be told not to do those things. And then to be threatened with punishment knowing we will do those things.
Something is amiss at the very core of who we are. Laws can't help us because as soon as they get in the way of what we want, they get broke. And it's painfully obvious religion can't help either; it just becomes a facade we hide behind to justify our actions. Others simply turn to atheism, they close their eyes, cross their fingers and hope no one is home in the universe and proceed to do what they want, when they want. Others still will try to plead ignorance: " I really want to do this and If there is a God I'll just tell Him that I didn't know that it was wrong"
Folks, we need to be saved from ourselves, we are the problem. And when you are lost in the forest the worst thing you can do is ask yourself for directions.
Yes, there can be no good without God. With out an author, everything then becomes a matter of personal preference and interpretation. There is no objective standard by which to judge things.
I disagree. I don't have a god, and am quite an exceptional person if I do say so myself. My objective standard is 1. empathy, what I would like for myself given I were in another's situation - a perfectly natural, and completely human emotion which in no way depends on a creator. 2. what knowledge and empirical evidence has shown us to be the nature of the world in which we live - which again is in no way dependent on a creator.
You can't ask the maker of the product how it should be used. It means man has no purpose for which he was made and therefore there can be no deviation from a norm.
Which product has any god in the history of mankind shown how to use? And what is this purpose you speak of? I mean, everyone has their own "purpose" and the world hasn't ended in fire and brimstone thus far.
But worse than that is if there is no life after death, then justice becomes a sham. Those who go on shooting sprees and then take their lives escape justice. Hitler escaped justice and got off.
Or, if there is no life after death, life becomes even more important. I would submit that most every mass murderer in the history of the world had some belief in some god, so this entire statement is simply incorrect.
But the worst thing is that our lives become pointless and without meaning or value. If we come from nothing and return to nothing, folks we are nothing. Our lives have no value. Then there is no difference between gassing termites and gassing 6 million Jews.
Again, as one who does not believe in any god whatsoever, I can promise from experience that I still find plenty of points to continue living. And again, it makes those lives lost even more tragic as I'm pretty sure they're just dead, and not floating around somewhere as magical spirits.
That ought to scare any sane person. Because then you become a commodity for the state to use and consume for it's purposes. There is a correlation between Communism and atheism. For further proof pick up a copy of The Guinness Book of World Records and check out the greatest mass murderers of all time: Atheistic regimes, Stalin, Mao etc etc. There is a reason Russia is experiencing a surge in religion. This question is not a theoretical one for them; they know the answer from first hand experience.
That's just dumb. I am firmly against communism, as atheist as I am. Further, Hitler referred to himself as an Evangelical in his speeches on Mien Kempf. The crusades killed around 6 million people (5 million in the first four and another 1 million in the Albigensian Crusade.) Terrorism from the middle east is under the banner of religion, as is much of the ethnic cleansing in Africa. Of the two; god's hands are far bloodier than any atheist's.
I do however think the greater question is why do we have to protect ourselves from ourselves. Take the Ten Commandments, it ought to stagger us that God has to tell us not to murder and steal. Wow!!
Agreed. Did it ever occur to you that god had nothing to do with the ten commandments? But that some smart person said, "these people are idiots, we need to figure out some way to control them." This sounds more like an argument for education than against atheism.
that ought to be a given. We shouldn't have to be told not to do those things. And then to be threatened with punishment knowing we will do those things.
Agreed. And again, of the 18% of the human population that identifies them self as atheist or agnostic, you will find about the same proportion within that population as in the religious population who follow the relevant commandments such as don't kill and steal, all without the fear of eternal damnation.
Something is amiss at the very core of who we are. Laws can't help us because as soon as they get in the way of what we want, they get broke. And it's painfully obvious religion can't help either; it just becomes a facade we hide behind to justify our actions. Others simply turn to atheism, they close their eyes, cross their fingers and hope no one is home in the universe and proceed to do what they want, when they want. Others still will try to plead ignorance: " I really want to do this and If there is a God I'll just tell Him that I didn't know that it was wrong"
So you're saying, it doesn't matter if someone believes in a god or not, they're going to do what they do. Agreed again, so how is this an argument for god being for the greater good? It would seem to be an argument for it not mattering... which happens to be a very atheist and free-thinking argument by the way. Odd... btw, I'm not crossing my fingers and hoping no one is home. That's a ridiculous view of atheism.
Folks, we need to be saved from ourselves, we are the problem. And when you are lost in the forest the worst thing you can do is ask yourself for directions.
When man began, we lived in caves, died when we were in our mid twenties of violence or hideous diseases, spent all of our time starving half to death, rape was the general family structure, we smelled bad and were exceedingly harry. Where was god then? That most have since our short advancement from that brutish existence, used religion in one way or another, it seems to me we've come this far quite on our own. Every advance in our existence, from medicine, to exploration of a round world (as opposed flat) has been fought by religion nail, tooth, stake in the ground, and fire.
Didn't say you couldn't be good only that you can't account for it, it's the grounding question. You can't account for good or evil in a purely naturalistic world. Those are moral judgments and making moral judgments is not a characteristic of matter. Hence the saying. dumb as a box of rocks
Objection 2:
When you make something it's usually for a purpose you have in mind, even if it's just to amuse yourself, there is a reason why you do it. If Intelligent Design is correct it would be wise to find out for what purpose we were created
Objection 3:
Explain to me then how justice is established?
For the record; Atheistic regimes have slaughtered upwards of 100 million people. All other atrocities combined don't even come close. But don't take my word for it. check the records. Ideas have consequences and Darwin's produced the bloodiest century in human history. And Darwin's theory was atheistic to the core.
Objection 4:
Again, you most certainly can, but you can't ground it.
Objection 5:
See the answer to objection 3 and go look up the greatest mass murderers in the Guinness Book of World Records.
Objection 6:
The evidence doesn't support your assertion.
Objection 7:
I was driving at the point that we even violate each other. that we do it at all is the greater problem. But again you can't account for Good or evil, Those are moral judgments and making moral judgments is not a characteristic of matter.
Objection 8
If there is a God, then we have hope. Because when you have been caught in the rip tide and you're drowning, you don't save yourself. And unless someone jumps into rescue you, you are as good as dead. In atheism, there is no lifeguard and no one on shore, you are all alone. In Christianity the lifeguard is on duty and He is able to save and He does. How differently will you live your life once you have been taken out of the mouth of death as it swallowed you ?
In what do you have hope? and not the wishful thinking kind, that does no one any good. The confident certain kind that you can stand on.
About crossing fingers. Take the time to read Pascal's Wager. I think the way I characterized atheism is pretty accurate. The smart money is on Jesus.
Objection 9: You presuppose the descent of Man and then use that paradigm to interpret the facts. Might I suggest there might be another way to account for religion. The trouble with your explanation is that it is far to simple and fails to account for a great deal of factors; such as the reality that men don't event things far for terrible than what they know. The idea is always to appease the gods, aka forces of nature, you don't make something up vastly superior to the natural world.
The problem with pascal's wager is that it doesn't say which god you should believe in - using pascal's logic you should probably just find out which god is the most jealous of belief in other gods, has the best reward and worst punishment. So if the flying speghetti monster promises worse than weeping and gnashing of teeth, then you should believe in it rather than YWYH.
The decent of man more aptly accounts for our dichotomous moral values that treats people of our clan/country/team etc better than others. during the process of evolution we had to learn how to cooperate with human beings to be more successful hunters but compete against other tribes etc. for resources.
if we went with: love thy enemy, love thy neighbor as thyself, and to be perfect sell everything you own and follow me - we would have a much different society than we have today
Well, I've been debating theists quite aggressively for a few days now on this site, and frankly I'm a little worn out from it. You need to try to understand, that you are looking at the world from a completely different perspective than I am. I know, because I was very religious until my early twenties, it's 2 completely separate mindsets, and it's almost like two different languages one trying to communicate with the other, but I will go through your objections from my point of view the best I can.
1. I believe one can account for their perspective on good and evil in humans. We are a pack animal, always have been. Even dog's, with 0 knowledge of any religion, know to protect and "be kind" to others in their pack, including their owner whom they see as the pack leader. In the same way, we as humans I believe naturally act in a manner which serves the "pack" even often at expense to ourselves. Those who remain within this norm of pack behaviour we call "good" those without we call "evil".
Being brighter and more complex than dogs or any other pack animal, of course this instinct within ourselves becomes complex. But natural and observable none the less with or without any type of creator.
2. True, if there was a creator, it would make sense to find our purpose of creation, even if our purpose for being created was strictly for his amusement. But I don't believe in intelligent design either, so not sure how that pertains to my arguement.
3. Again, justice is established using our general and natural idea of empathy. And as we see this is not a constant, but shifts with time as we evolve. Empathy is a very natural instinct most humans are born with, which has developed because it does serve for the greater good of humans, even in the circumstance that it should not be in one instance or another the greater good for oneself.
This is from us (again) being a pack animal. I think you'll find that if you take away our big brains, we really are a pathetic and week creature compared to most mamals.
Minus our big brain, without the abilty to work together as a whole, and this means establishing rules and a sense of justice, we would be quite extinct right now, having all been eaten by lions and tiger and bears oh my.
4. I would argue no one "grounds it", even the religious. What difference does it make what one's morals are grounded in if they have them none the less? The only relevent point is that a god is unnecessary for one to have a reason to live or a moral compass to live by. I never said the religious don't feel their morals are grounded, I simply offer myself as proof that the idea many of the religious have, that life without a god is somehow empty, is quite incorrect.
5. mass murder read it, tons of examples. Just as many examples of the religious killing as of the non-religious killing. There is no proof to back up the idea that a person who doesn't believe in a god is more or less likely to kill, than one who believes in a god, and somehow twists it so that their god encourages the act of killing. Your arguement holds no water.
6. I don't see what you're refering to, if you are numbering this according to my highlighted points, there is no evidence either way, and that's my point. There's a lack of evidence here.
7. But this is the point. Your original arguement puts forth that, the religious are more moral because they have specifically religion to guide them. My point is again, while religion guides the vast majority of the human population (82% apx) those not guided by a religion are just as likely to be "good" or "evil" which would appear to make the belief in a god unnecessary in order to be "moral"
8. lol, this was hard to read. I'm not impressed by pretty words when discussing theology. I'm not swayed by mindless examples. My belief is one caught in a rip-tide is just as likely to drown whether they believe in god or not. You seem to be under the impression that there is something in life to be saved from. I do not see it this way. This is what I'm talking about when I say that it's like two people trying to communicate in two different languages. You do not seem to understand that I do not believe there is anything to be saved from in the general sense, and in the literal sense, I've never seen or heard of god saving anyone whose life was in mortal danger. Some live, some die, belief in god does not change these odds at all. The religious listen to example after example of people saying "I was saved" it's indoctrinated into the fiber of your being. From the outside, it looks like silly people looking for an easy way out. No one is saved, because there is nothing to be saved from. We live, we die, we make what we make out of it in the time in between. God plays no role. Some choose to believe in a god, but those who do not are just as happy, and quite often more so, than those who do. And in the end, whether someone believes in a god or not, they die and it's lights out. I don't think a religious person will "live forever" any more than I believe I will "live forever". What one believes is irrelevant ultimately outside of what they do with it here on earth while alive.
Now, the religious can hardly (if at all) wrap their heads around the concept of simply being dead. It's like they have to believe there is an after-life, and by default, have to believe that everyone else must on some level at least want to believe there is an afterlife.
I assure you, I do not on any level believe in an afterlife. I do not want to on any level trick myself into believing in an afterlife. I believe it is self-destructive to fool oneself in such a way.
9. You have some typos that make this hard to understand. I think what your saying is that my account of how religion started is off,
in which case the point flew clear over you, which it always does when I get into these discussions.
Again, it's nearly impossible to explain to one such as yourself.
But I'm not trying to explain exactly how religion began.
I was simply giving an alternative example in order to point out my opinion that
religion is quite unnecessary. That is what th point was.
There is no point in me trying to guess how it all started (though I imagine it was from an inherent need within born of self-realization to not cease to exist at some point, which is not even the theory I put forth, but there you go)
As I was saying, there is no point for me trying to guess though how it all started, and I don't care how or why it all started.
You seem like a very open minded guy, so I'd like to buy a book for you. I want to do that since I think you would give it a fair reading and I would like to get your opinion on it since it weighs heavily in my opinion on the existence of god. Anthony Flew held many of the same views you do, if not more. But something changed and I find it very compelling. If you are going to change my mind you need to overcome his argument, I've included a link to amazon.com so just say the word and I'll buy it for you.
You seem to miss the question at hand. The question is not can you or do you have morality, I agree you do and can. I also believe you can come up with all kinds of reasons for it; which you clearly prove you can. The problem is that all the devices you use do it; reason, logic, your mind, thought, reflection, moral assessments etc. and the morality, ethics, rules etc you come up with are not characteristics of matter nor are they physical in nature.
The Atheistic worldview is purely naturalistic by definition and asserts that matter is all there is. It therefore can't, by definition, have non-materlistic things in it, like logic, reason, morality, ethics etc. So your use of such things disproves your assertion and confirms mine.
So then the grounding question becomes critical. To form a correct view of the world one must have an adequate explanation for the things he finds in it. Otherwise your view will be inadequate and quite possibly incorrect. So I assert that your worldview is woefully inadequate to explain all of reality. And is therefore faulty because it's scope is to narrow and explanation far to simplistic.
I've included a link to another book for your consideration. And again You'll have to adequately over come the arguments that are made in this book to change my mind.
I'll pass on the book, but thank you. I read his bio though and it was interesting. I find the deist point of view more rational than the majority of theist thoughts.
The problem is that all the devices you use do it; reason, logic, your mind, thought, reflection, moral assessments etc. and the morality, ethics, rules etc you come up with are not characteristics of matter nor are they physical in nature.
Okay, this is like St. Anselm's Ontological theory. It was supposed to basically be a one page strictly cerebral proof of the existence of some god. It takes a similar premise which I think is provable, that humans are incapable of creation. Every idea we have comes from something we observe; and you can try if you like, it's kind of fun, attempt to imagine something new, a new fantastic creature perhaps, you'll find no matter how crazy an idea you come up with, it can be traced to things observed piece by piece. Everything is an exaggeration, or a combination of things etc, but it's all traceable to the real world.
He took this basic fact of the human mind, and put forth the idea that man long ago came up with this idea of something "greater than which nothing else can exist." Since this is an ephemeral thought, and in itself it would seem to be untraceable, man must on some level have experience of it. Therefore, "something than which nothing else can exist" must be real. And this we call god, and then of course there's a million definitions and theories about this being, but at the center it must be based on some unknowable truth.
He studied philosophical works, especially Socrates and Plato of course, and very much seemed to be influenced by the very persuasive argument that we exist with all knowledge in some form before birth, and at birth, we somehow forget, and learning is simply memory. It seems to be the same kind of thought process.
Which is interesting.
But my reply is simply. 1. in response to St. Anselm, we cannot really imagine "something than which nothing greater can exist" we simply exaggerate on to infinity, and describe it as such. Ex. I can say "infinity" referring to say just numbers. But I know that there is no such thing because one can always add a 0 at the end. At the same time, while I can say infinity, and can have a general concept of the idea while at the same time knowing it is not a real thing, really I cannot even begin to imagine really large numbers. No one can really imagine for example how many a trillion is. We hear that number all the time, but the reality is beyond our comprehension when converted to anything real. Yet, a trillion does not even begin to approach "infinity" and in fact, we run into the number "trillion" all the time, in the deficit, the number of stars, sand on the beach, etc. It's everywhere. But beyond our comprehension none the less.
Now that obviously could be turned into a pretty sermon about god, how something can be in front of us, while we do not comprehend it.
lol, and I just realized how cute a point that would be. Probably make a million turning it into a little poem or something - "foot prints in the sand" and all that :)
but the point is, our ability to have what seem to be higher-level thoughts, "reason, logic, your mind, thought, reflection, moral assessments etc. and the morality, ethics, rules etc" as you say,
are very much characteristics of matter and are I believe of a physical nature.
So, 2. In response to your point I would say that these things are a part of the natural world. reason, logic, reflection, ethics, even the morality that began this entire sideline to the debate, are all things I believe that developed naturally in humans, and many many mammals with relatively large brains, from observing the benefits of this kind of social behaviour.
A chimpanzee can learn (From "Bonobo: the forgotten ape") for example, that if he brings a lover food, she will have sex with him later. When he does not, she does not. So they learned to share. Even in them, this took a certain amount of reflection. These primates had to look at them self, and on some level say "I want sex" then, their actions in pursuit of what they determined through self-reflection appears, and may well be, morality.
Through time, we observe the fruits of our actions both from our own experience, and with our capacity to imagine what others have experienced. This leads over hundreds of thousands of years of evolution, experience, breeding with those who act in a similar way, etc, generation after generation, to a people (us) who appear to have a capacity for morality, reflection, moral judgment,
when the hundreds of thousands of years of the trial and error of evolution are not taken into consideration,
I admit it can appear quite miraculous, and I can see how one may feel something "greater" must be an architect of sorts. Even if this architect isn't really around to talk to like deists believe.
But given the progression over generations. I don't feel these higher-level human characteristics necessitate the existence of a greater being. Sure, they are not "characteristics of matter nor are they physical in nature." But they are results of physical nature, hundreds of thousands of years of physical nature.
Now, to the debate. "Is belief in God for the GREATER GOOD."
I do not believe it is. We are capable of all the good, and all the evil on our own, with or without a god. And I do not like one using god as an excuse for good or for evil. I believe it is people, always was people, and always will be people, and it is better to be aware of that even if it should be the case that people couldn't handle this idea. I think though they could handle it just fine though if t hey tried.
Atheistic regimes have slaughtered upwards of 100 million people
And religion hasn't done its share of slaughtering? How about the unrecorded atrocities committed in the name of god during colonial times? and the continuing killings going on now the name of that same entity in the middle east and all over the world? what about sacrifices done to god by the mayans and astecs? Killings in the name of one god or another are in everyone's history books. Why continue perpetuating myths?
When you mention atheistic regimes I assume you are referring mostly done by communism, in which case the reason behind it was ideology... not "atheism". Whereas in the religious killings, the name of god was actually used as a reason.
You really should do your research before making comments like these because you lose credibility with those who have.
Take all the religious killings and they still don't come close to those done by atheistic ideology(communism) What these Communistic regimes did was the logical out working of the atheismism they held to. It should be painfully obvious that atheism is a flawed worldview.
Put 100 devout people in separate rooms and ask them 100 moral questions (e.g. if a pregnant woman has cancer, can she get chemotherapy to likely save her life if it would likely kill the baby?) - you will get many different answers and different justifications - so if there is objective morality, humans cannot converse with god and figure out what it is. We would still be left with subjective morality only we would be judged by a god who has an objective morality and sends people to the lake of fire based on a morality they can't know.
"If Intelligent Design is correct it would be wise to find out for what purpose we were created" - how would you go about doing that? even with a god, what is your higher purpose, live a life of suffering that the god had provided you while loving that god?
"In what do you have hope? and not the wishful thinking kind, that does no one any good. The confident certain kind that you can stand on" - seems like you just want to dismiss positive thinking just like atheist want to dismiss god - if thinking good thoughts has just as much positive outcome and hope etc., then it is just as valid
I'm sorry you have so much disbelief. Obviously you put a lot of energy to justify in your own-self about any faith towards God. I'm just going dispute some of the comments about if the world would be better of if Christians where gone. All I have to say is think of a places in the world where there is no God and you will only see death, poverty and despair. The evolution is a farce. Do you remember the cover of national geographic when they had a ape like skull saying that they have found the missing link. Of course that was found out to be a fraud. Point I'm making is, all you have to do is look around and look at the perfect order of nature the extreme complexity and to not even think that there is a creator designer behind it that it is just a mere coincidence. It's just stupid to think that all you are is just a piece of walking flesh do to the fact that evolution is the only reason you are here. And that all of nature with it's perfect order is because. Just look up the number of charities and the number is overwhelmingly Christian based probably the number would be actually more because a lot of them are but are afraid of persecution from Church and State laws.
You have denial issues I think deep down you really feel that all of these things are possible but you have chosen to block it out and harden yourself for the truth.
You know what makes me laugh is that you have Agnostic historians looking in the bible for references to help them find ancient cities and places. Take Troy for example just to name one out the dozens. They thought it was a myth until they discovered it referenced passages out of the bible to help them. Dude totally have taken the whole 9/11 thing to far. Pretty insulting of course I don't believe those you said. All I was saying is that we have been relatively safe as a nation and my faith believes that yes God does protect us nothing wrong with that. Bad things do happen no matter what trials and tribulations are a part of life.
As far as using you storied and other quotes from people and Tibet tribes whatever. I don't care what they think. I don't look to others to convince me of what I know and believe I question man when I hear a preacher or someone else taking about their Ideas. All I know is that there is a God and creator of us and everything. It's my own personal believe. Shame on those missionaries for using a lame story about that which is not true. If they where Mormon that would sound like a BS story from them.
In order to answer this question the first thing we have to agree upon is on our views of human nature or on the potential of human nature. It seems as the belief in God for the greater good is correlated with the belief that human beings are evil and that have no potential to do good unless they have some belief in a supernatural force. Contradictorily, most religions are based upon the notion that man is a "fallen" creature that needs to be redeemed through rituals, or some sort of metaphysical connection to a higher being. Religion and the belief in God are sustained by the thought that we are evil.
The situation we are in right now religions have preeminence in dictating moral standards. Thus, the basis for our understanding of human nature comes from the religious basis that we need some sort of enlightment or redemption to be restored to a higher plane.
In this situation the only way to achieve a greater good is through God.
thus when yuo say "people turn to atheism and do what they want," you are assuming that this means they will turn into some sort of savages. This is not true. This is just based on your conception of human nature which comes from religion.
I would like to see an interpretation of human nature that is not based on religious premises. One that more objectively demonstrates our potential to be good or bad depending on the environment we are raised, our level of education, and our own genetic disposition.
And how do you account for the vast amount of religious people who also commit "evil"?
I argue that determining what is "right" or "wrong" based on belief is inaccurate and subjective. People do things "because god told me so" (no matter what god that is) without questioning why or really thinking for themselves. Scientific reasoning (I do not mean just science but perhaps the use of the scientific method) can lead us to find a "greater good" in a more objective way. Why is homosexuality wrong? Why is sodomy wrong?
A better measure would be to check whether or not your actions are harmful to you or to others, and then measure your behavior accordingly. This is better than just "god told me to do it" which leaves the issue open to having any god tell you any kind of crazy thing "god told me to go kill the abortionists". There was actually a case a couple of years ago in one state about a pastor who killed a doctor that was performing abortions. And the congregation supported him.
Im sure you will say "well, that is extreme, bla bla bla" and make some excuse about how those people were not true followers... but the thing is, religion is subjective and it is left to ones "relationship with god". How do you explain to that man that killed the abortionist that his relationship with god is not legitimate? How would YOU argue for that? Do you have a direct line to god?
things get easier if we have the means to determine whether our behavior is harmful to ourself or others. Now science can tell us a lot about how to behave in ways that are less harmful to ourself, to the environment, and to society in general. The bible does not say anything about protecting the environment, which is an issue of importance to all of us. But in my personal identification of "right" and "wrong" I say the overuse of pet bottles is wrong, because Ive learned the effects they can have on the environment. - Just an example.
What greater goods have come from the belief in God? I want you to explain to me how religion is NOT subjective. When followers have to listen to a pastor/priest interpret things for them. Or when followers constantly justify their own behavior with an explanation that all that matters is a "personal relationship" with God. I really wonder how God is speaking to all these people directly in ways that contradict each other.
I've already said inherintly people are good in general and naturally know what is wrong and right and religion tends to go side by side with that. I'm not saying it's because of religion, but that they're intwined. I've also said (maybe not on this debate) that it's wrong when people do things without questioning - however it doesn't mean you always and continously question everything.
You cannot use scientific method unless you already have a moral view. Science gives us some of the harms of using drugs, however it is upto us whether or not that is good or bad. Science says that drugs do blah blah to your body and mind. It gives statistics linking drug abuse to crime. It is people that say it's wrong. Science cannot say whether it is good or not for society to have crime etc. It can say that drug abuse affects the country in this or that way... but it cannot say it is wrong.
I've stated that we'll never understand the full extent of our actions and even if we understand some of them.. is it truly right? Science itself is continously debating itself. Before you could hit your kids, then we're taught not to... and now there's growing debate that you should hit your kids (not abuse.. hit). This is science. We always think we know what we're doing and we know the results of our actions, however we don't and there's no way of telling. Look at the core of all the religions and tell me whether or not they are harmful to you or others around you.
Even worse is the fact that again you're this example of this pastor as something against religion. Where in the Bible does it say go kill the abortionist? Would the majority of people condemn his actions? Was it truly in the name of God or was it through frustration and anger?
People who do these things - Drug dealers, murderers, (maybe homos), gangsters etc. They ALL know what they're doing is wrong. All of them. (Unless they've got a mental issue). That pastor knows what he's done is wrong... but will defend himself nontheless. He will say that killing the doctor is a step towards stopping abortions, however he knows that killing a man is wrong. All of these people know what they do is wrong, but do it anyway and most of them say they're religious but do not follow the religion. When I drink alcohol, I know it's not right. It doesn't bother me... but I know that I don't need to, have to etc... but I do.. for my own selfish reasons. It's not something that bugs me.. it's just something small that I know I shouldn't do. Same as people who smoke... they know they shouldn't smoke, but they do. Atheists smoke... technically according to you, they shouldn't because they know the harm it does to them and because they use scientific reasoning objectively, they wouldn't smoke. They do. Same as theists.
It's hard for me to explain other religious communities accurately because I haven't lived in them.. but my own. Relgion IS subjective and you keep missing that. The priests teach/lecture/explain the philosophy of the religion, that is their purpose.
I really wonder how God is speaking to all these people directly in ways that contradict each other.
Science tells us accurately about the effects of certain actions. E.g. smoking, drugs, alcohol, homosexuality, unprotected sex.... etc. But people are still free to make decisions. So sometimes, you have the contradictory cases of doctors who know how harmful it is to smoke, but still do it to themselves.
In religion, you run into the same contradictions all the time, especially in cases that in my opinion are more delicate in terms of morality because they are more fragile. The difference is, that religious people have no way to argue for why they should do right, other than to "praise god", and then they try to impose it.
Christianity is not the only religion. Contrary to your view, there are many gods out there and many types of followers. And the main thing they seem to care about is to argue that their god is the right one, in order to justify why they are following such absurd laws without really thinking them through. In this scenario , how is it that belief in god is for the greater good? which god?
Because of religion we are always focused on some sort of afterlife and soul saving exercises that take our attention from establishing a better society for all of us. I think it is an unnecessary distraction, all this god talk.
Now going back to science. People are still free to do whatever they want to their bodies, because they own them. However they are not free to do whatever they want to their neighbors body. Thus, it would be absurd to say that a doctor who is smoking in his bedroom is breaking a law. It would be absurd to impose that on him. Same with drinking. Only religion imposes some sort of virtual punishment to these people (here or in the afterlife) taking away their personal freedoms. However, when we are talking about society, we have to make laws based on factual evidence, not subjective feelings about things. Yes people make a "moral" choice about things, but this choice doesnt necessarily have to be based on fairy tales. It can be based on scientific evidence.
However, what if the doctor was smoking in a public place? In Japan they are already passing laws against smoking in public places (train stations for example). Why? Because we know that second-hand smoke is harmful, and so it makes sense to sanction those who want to harm others with their behavior.
Murderers also do things that are harmful to others and should go to jail. Drug dealers, the only reason they are doing something wrong is because it entails an economic transaction outside of government regulation. In Amsterdam, marijuana is legalized, based on the scientific study of the effects, and no one is prosecuting the owners of coffee houses for selling it to costumers.
A lot of moral laws of religion overlap with common sense (at least in the christian religion) but a lot do not, and they lead to hatred and discrimination based on nothing more than subjective claims that "god doesn't like it". Why is homosexuality wrong?
Belief in god entails faith, and faith is the ability to believe in something without evidence. Once you believe in god you start to believe whatever else anyone tells you (including the voices in your head - which are not always good) , and then we are steps away from becoming sheep. Science on the other hand teaches us to question. It gives us facts and then we can know what effects it will have for society. Of course science can say how drug abuse affects a country! Im talking about the scientific method of reasoning. Social sciences based on statistics and other forms of study deal with these problems everyday in every university. I think you are underestimating the value of inquiry and critical thinking. Maybe you are just trying to hold on to your subjective believe that you need god to know what is good or bad for you.
In my opinion belief in god does nothing for society. NOTHING. Religion puts a focus on things out of this world in order to give people a drive. Is this good? It is, on a very personal level. The problem is that people assume that it was meant for society. Thats where the Jewish had it right in wanting a messiah who would come and liberate them from the political oppression. And they got rightfully pissed off when they realized that this great Jesus did not give a damn about the world here. He cared about souls. Jesus did not accept the temptation of satan when he offered all the kingdoms of the world. remember that story? What does that tell you? that the world belongs to someone other than god. that god's laws do not apply to this world. that this world is better run without religious beliefs.
I also grew up in a christian environment and i feel i know the religion pretty well. But I really find religion and faith lacking in ways to help society improve. They help people be happy, find reasons to live, thank god in the midst of trouble... but leave it there. Denying homosexuals of the right to marry because god sees it as wrong, is bullshit. It is called discrimination. Denying women the right to abort because the fetus has a soul, is another bullshit that we cannot prove.
Saying you cant smoke a joint because god wouldn't like it, is retarded. Saying that you shouldn't smoke it cause it kills brain cells is a different kind of choice.
Use the bible for yourself. or the Koran. Or buddhist texts. Stop eating meat if god tells you. Cover your women. Tithe 10% of your salary to the church. go ahead, but dont say these things make society better. because eventually what religious followers have to be concerned with is to know and prove others that their god is the right one. that the bible is the word of god. not the koran. argh.
The example of a pastor is an extreme one, amongst many of the same nature (but not of the same level) of how people interpret their god given missions differently. sure the bible may not say that. but the bible doesnt say a lot of things either and people read into it. also it happens to say a lot of other stuff that makes no sense but people believe it blindly. i mean, have you ever seen a soul? honestly?? why do you blame that pastor? if religion teaches us to connect to some being outside of us and obey? i think all believers in god are deluded in different degrees. the killer pastor, just another one.
anyway. im tired of arguing because it clearly seems to me that you already have your faith based point of view, wanting to see that god's laws indeed apply to this world just because sometimes they overlap. the fact that they do is not enough to continue with such fairy tales. we know have evidence about many things, so we can use our reasoning to value whether or not we should take the blue or the red pill.
Hmmmm. After reading this not only do I think you don't know what you're talking about, but you've also got a warped sense of reality, especially when it comes to religion.
You're ideology is complete freedom for oneself. This is the epitome of selfishness... doing whatever you want as long as you don't think it affects anybody else.
This whole delusion you've got about how all religious people follow God blindly is again wrong. If people didn't know why they followed God, if they were just mindless zombies who had no senses themselves then why is it that theists are able to argue for their religion? Some even give a different interpretation... some change things altogether. There are many ignorant theists out there, but they tend to be from poor countries, limited education and live simple lives. Apart from them all theists follow such laws after thinking them through. You're saying arguing which religion is right is absurd?!??! This is what people do with differences. They clash. It's not just religion.. it's race, ideology, philosophy, politics etc. EVERYTHING.
So what's wrong with this 'soul saving excercise'? Give some examples cause I don't know wtf you're chatting.
However, when we are talking about society, we have to make laws based on factual evidence, not subjective feelings about things. Yes people make a "moral" choice about things, but this choice doesnt necessarily have to be based on fairy tales. It can be based on scientific evidence.
Here comes your warped ideas about people again. You're telling me moral choices only come from fairy tales. Seeing as you don't believe in fairies... you don't have an morals. According to you. People's moral choices aren't based on fairy tales. Fairy tales are in accordance to their moral choices. (Remember I said this earlier...). People are generally against murder. These fairy tales are against murder. They're both against murder. People aren't against murder because fairy tales are against murder. You cannot make a law based on science without judgement outside of science. I've written why before... if you didn't understand it I'll explain one last time.
Let's have immigration as an example.
Law requires legal migrants.. not illegal immigrants.
Science tells us the positives and negatives of immigration.
OUR OWN JUDGEMENT will decide whether or not we want immigration and to what degree. This judgement is outside of science as science cannot make decisions.. only explain them to a certain degree.
So drug dealers are bad because of your reason? Not because they're selling substances that harm your body in the long term, cause addictions which leads into other trouble. Not because of that. Only because it's outside of the government's economy. NO!
Belief in god entails faith, and faith is the ability to believe in something without evidence. ...(more and more bs i've already talked about.... Maybe you are just trying to hold on to your subjective believe that you need god to know what is good or bad for you.
Firstly I've already said to question is good. However doesn't mean you've got the right answers when it goes against your religion. You might sometimes... but I doubt it. To question doesn't mean to go against. So when you believe in God.. doesn't mean you believe whatever anyone else tells you. Maybe that happened to you or somebody you knew.. but not in the majority of educated religious people. Science on the other hand doesn't teach anything. Science does nothing. Science is basically theory. Theory based on logic, evidence, statistics, solutions etc, but it is theory.
The problem is that people assume that it was meant for society
NO! you see that is where you are wrong. When people are happy, good (on a personal level) then it means society will be happy and good on a personal level. That is plain logic. You've got it wrong about the Jews and Jesus. Or that Satan story. That Satan story doesn't mean shit about God or that the world doesn't belong to God. It's the same as being a customer in a shop and telling somebody to steal something. It's temptation.. not a bargain. LOL! You're such an amazingly smart, good, morally absolute person yet you don't even understand the simplest of stories. I'm not even Christian, nor do I agree with a lot of it's practices yet at the least I understand what I disagree with. This shows that you don't understand where you stand. You've got a deluded idea about religious people based on your own personal, limited experiences.
Saying you cant smoke a joint because god wouldn't like it, is retarded. Saying that you shouldn't smoke it cause it kills brain cells is a different kind of choice.
NO!!!! Again you're wrong!! Even though I can understand where you're coming from, you're wrong. If you believe, trust and have faith in someone you follow them. Even though you don't always know why, you follow their reasoning because you know that they're right. So when people say it's because God wouldn't like it... it's because they truly trust God and think that what He said is right. You're trying to ask them to question God. How the fuck can you do that? lol?!?!
I have no problem with you being atheist... only your reasoning. You have a very limited imagintion, perspective, experience, narrow and understanding of matters. Not only does this make it hard to argue and explain with you, but it makes most of your points invalid.
I feel like stopping this too. I get annoyed when you don't understand the points I make and you probably feel the same way. You started off great though and tbh I tihnk it would be better if you made a debate about a single subject which you don't agree with.. as this is definately too broad.
A warped sense of "reality" comes from religious dogmas that teach us to follow fairy tales and trust imaginary beings such as god, or else we go to hell.
I support a clear, objective understanding of reality, you clearly don't. You are still hoping that the god you believe in is real in order to base your morality on it. Morality does not require a god. Atheists are not immoral people. Muslims are not immoral people. Buddhist are not immoral. Everyone is capable of understanding and exercising good will towards others (in favor of a greater good), with or without a religious background. What I'm saying is, there is no need to believe in god in order to attain a greater good.
I still maintain that arguing which religion is right is absurd because it is like arguing about the preferences of santa claus. It is unnecessary. A waste of effort. And unfortunately it further divides us. I know people clash on different subjects, we all have differences.. however religious people tend to view others outside their religion as being inferior, or condemned, or in need. They view themselves as being "right" and this hinders communication and dialogue. While two people with differing opinions on politics or philosophy an argue and change their minds and grow; two very firm religious believers will not argue for the sake of developing their ideas. Their aim is to "convince" the other person that they need a "god".
Im very clear in saying that moral choices do not come from fairy tales. They come from judgement based on enough evidence about a situation.
When two friends of yours get into a fight and one comes to tell you about the situation, you have the choice to make a judgement without listening to the other side of the story. If you do, your judgement is more likely to be flawed than if you allowed yourself to listen to the other side. The more evidence you have, the better the choice you will make.
Religion makes us listen to only one authorative voice, the voice of god (whoever that one is).
When I talk about "evidence" please do not mistake this only with scientific evidence. When I speak of science I mean using the scientific method of inquiry. Of course moral judgments come outside of science! im not arguing or that or saying contrary. But INFORMED judgments come from more evidence and knowledge. Thats the difference.
When I hear "homosexuality is wrong!" from a religious person, no one is able to give me one reason between stuttering that doesn't boil down to "the word of god". This is an exampled of a moral judgement that is uninformed and inaccurate.
I find a lot of contradictions in what you are saying about belief in god. When I mentioned that faith is the certainty of things without the need for evidence, Im not making this up. Go look at the definition of faith in the bible and you will see what many followers already know. Questioning within a religion is not "wrong" but it is seeing often as an attack of the devil, a phase, or something that must be overcome. Because eventually, you just gotta believe, brother. or as you mentioned near the end of your post: you just have to trust the imaginary being above.
When you say that science does nothing, you sound like a very religious uneducated person. Science does nothing?! geez, now who sounds close minded? A scientific method of reasoning actually tells us to start all inquiries with the premise that we do not know, and thus, we keep on searching.
Religious people quit that search and take things by faith, that is, by lack of evidence. Including a lack of proof for the existence of god. If you show an atheist proofs of the existence of god, then it makes sense to believe. But when scientific proof comes out rebutting the possibility of the afterlife, or miracles, or of resurrection , the religious person closes his ears and stops listening. This also occurs when two religious people argue, from different beliefs... why? because they already trust "in their heart" so no point in dialoguing in order to find out if what they trust is true or not.
Judgement about whether one thing is good or not should come from information. Lets stop calling it science cause you seem to get confuse. In your example about immigration, if your judgement is based on the unfounded belief that people from other countries are inferior, then your judgement will be wrong. However if you judgement is based upon evidence about the effects of immigration on your country (whether good or bad), then you will have a better judgement, and therefore make better laws. Does that make sense? What is the need for a god ideology when in reality better judgement comes from more information? So isn't evidence useful?!? I find it appalling to be arguing with someone who says that science has done nothing, and who sees no point in gathering evidence before making a judgement about a person or a behavior.
Religion gives a warped sense of reality. Evidence clears out our warped senses and presents reality in a sharper focus.
Here is a perfect example of how it's not just religious people who debating but don't argue and change their minds and grow. If it was true that religious people aren't able to communicate as well as politicians then you wouldn't have any converts. THIS is where your warped reality is in play. Religion is the same as politics in this sense. Everything you said about religion is applicable to politics in that paragraph and vice versa.
You are still hoping that the god you believe in is real in order to base your morality on it (etc.)
You did it again. How can I argue with you when either you don't read what I wrote or you don't understand it. If you did both then you wouldn't have put that down.
When two friends of yours get into a fight and one comes to tell you about the situation, you have the choice to make a judgement without listening to the other side of the story. If you do, your judgement is more likely to be flawed than if you allowed yourself to listen to the other side. The more evidence you have, the better the choice you will make.
So what's your point? That everybody should hear two sides to every single story they hear? Ideally it would be great, but practically? That means that every single person should know both sides of the story.. but does everyone know both sides? Neither theists or atheists know both sides of the story.. they tend to know little parts of the story, mostly on their side. You tell me how every single person would learn every single story on every single side there is? I have listened to both sides of the story. I have been on both sides of the story. I am now a theist.
But INFORMED judgments come from more evidence and knowledge
Only the INFORMED part comes from evidence and knowledge. Judgement is always subjective.
When I hear "homosexuality is wrong!" from a religious person, no one is able to give me one reason between stuttering that doesn't boil down to "the word of god". This is an exampled of a moral judgement that is uninformed and inaccurate.
That's because you're talking to religious people using religious answers! What would you expect?! If they are reasoning then they are informed and accurate. If they're just talking nonsense then it's the same as an atheist talking nonsense. If you wanted an answer without God in it, you should pose the question and say so. I am religious but I always try to give a non-religious answer as you've seen me do. The problem with you is that you expect abnormal responses and when they don't come you blame it on their ignorance.
Questioning doesn't just mean going against. It means to question and to be answered.
Question - Why do we pray?
Answer - To show our faith to God.
I don't know where you're from... but where I'm from, questioning is normal.. not an attack from a devil lolololololLOL!.
I think what you mean by questioning is to go against. Well obviously religious people wouldn't like that. The same as somebody questioning within a political party. And it should be overcome.. why not?
When you say that science does nothing, you sound like a very religious uneducated person. Science does nothing?! geez, now who sounds close minded? A scientific method of reasoning actually tells us to start all inquiries with the premise that we do not know, and thus, we keep on searching.
Hmmmm are you sure all of your brain cells are connected??
What does science do? Nothing. It's the APPLICATION of science that does something. We can use science to oppress or free, heal or harm, build or destroy. Science does jack shit, but the application or use of science (which is the umbrella term for knowledge) does something and ultimately that's based on people's actions and judgements.
Faith is not based on lack of evidence. If it was true then every religious person when confronted would say... God is real no matter what you say. They don't.. they have arguments, debates etc.
if your judgement is based on the unfounded belief that people from other countries are inferior, then your judgement will be wrong
Wait wait wait a minute. Who said that's wrong?? Why is it wrong to believe people from other countries are inferior? YOU said that and that's based on YOUR opinion. However where did I mention this?? You're wasting internet space by talking about completely non related crap.
For a judgement to be made you have to have a target. In this case let's use a nation as an example.
A's target is to make his nation a religious, clean, fair, community based society for it's own people.
B's target is to make his nation an industrial, superpower based on capital regardless of costs.
Now, A would not allow immigrants. Not because he doesn't have information or knowledge about them.. but because it doesn't agree with his goal. (I don't mean asylum seekers, simply people moving over the border for jobs, lifestyle etc.) Or he might allow a few if they were similar to his model society.
B would allow immigrants as that would provide a quick solution to workforce, cheap labour, manual labour etc. He might not use information or knowledge about them.. but if he wants them he will go for them.
You cannot say which one has made the better law just because it goes against your own ideology. If countries ban homosexuality what is it for you to say it's right or wrong? The majority of people in this world don't want gays. Does that mean it's wrong for a country to ban it?
Evidence is used to argue for and against religion. You think science and religion is mutually exclusive. You're basing this on lack of evidence.
so whats your point? that everybody should hear two sides to every single story they hear?
The point is to illustrate that more information about a subject leads to better judgment on it. Ideally we should refrain from emitting moral judgments when we don't have enough information. The point was on how information, not the subjectivity of religion, leads to better judgments.
thats because you are talking to religious people using religious answers
Evidently, this is your case, as you are trying to pose a defense for god.
On questioning.
Questioning should not be "overcome" as if it was an obstacle. Questions just need answers. When religious people seek answers in prayer, the answer has a high chance of just being a subjective personal intuition. If religious people would really look for answers they would have to start by first questioning the very existence of god, and requiring proof.
you cannot say one has a better law just because it doesn't agree with your ideology
Of course it is possible to judge whether an ideology is right or wrong, just as it is possible to judge the morality of anything else. Laws that do not give equal treatment to it's inhabitants , are laws that lack a good morality. When slavery was accepted, for example, the definition of citizen was not applicable to the slaves, as they were not awarded the same rights. I do not agree with it, not because of some "personal ideology" but because I believe all human beings to be equal. In your example of a country that bans homosexuality, I would also find that rather disgusting - how can it be right to judge a person by what he/she does in bed? are they harmful to society? how?
Anyway, thank you for showing your low level of maturity. With this, I abstain from the ridiculous debate that you have created. But again, I don't have enough information to judge you as a good or bad person as I lack the information about your age, your educational level, and the degree of your faith. ... ;-) cheers. And I didn't need god to tell me that pre-judging a person is bad... Or maybe if I had god then I could make a quick prejudgment and say you are a bigot.
Lol.. low level debate. Thanks luv, now I know it is actually good.
Ideally we should refrain from emitting moral judgments when we don't have enough information
So how much is enough information?? Do we actually know enough about anything to make the right choice?? You can only make a 100% correct judgement once you know EVERYTHING.. not just about one thing, but everything about everything... i.e. omnipotence. Because with that knowledge you would know the reaction to your action 100%.
When religious people seek answers in prayer, the answer has a high chance of just being a subjective personal intuition. If religious people would really look for answers they would have to start by first questioning the very existence of god, and requiring proof.
Ofcourse it MIGHT be subjective personal intuition. Someone would only every give their opinion. If somebody came and asked you about God, don't tell me you'd say He exists... or give strong points to His existance. In the same way youve got as much subjective personal intuition.. even though I know you like to think you don't. Religious people tend to be religious after having looked at answers or accepting answers. Nobody is religious without thinking about it atleast once in their lifetime.
Slavery - You're telling me it's wrong?
The economical benefits they provide.. manual labour.. make lives easier for their owners etc. I'm not one to agree with it.. but you con't tell me there's no positives to slavery.
I do not agree with it, not because of some "personal ideology" but because I believe all human beings to be equal
Contradiction. Believing all human beings are equal is an ideology.
In your example of a country that bans homosexuality, I would also find that rather disgusting - how can it be right to judge a person by what he/she does in bed? are they harmful to society? how?
It's disgusting to you?? Homosexuality itself is disgusting to me. Not because of God or what my parents say. Again when it comes to gayness.. my reasoning will seem absurd and easily arguable.. but I think I'm right when it comes to it. But YOU reasoning that people should be able to do whatever they want to aslong as they think it doesn't affect anybody is selfishness to the maximum.
I'm a bigot huh? you're obviously completely tolerant of religious people. It's a shame.. I thought you were intelligent at the start.
Very good points. About the matter of the different direct lines to God, there's this little funny movie here, which might help religious people see how subjective their own point of view is... Enjoy! ^^
"With out an author, everything then becomes a matter of personal preference and interpretation"
everything is still personal preference and interpretation - which god to believe in, which texts get canonized, and their applicability and meaning given current circumstances
perfect justice, meaning, etc. are only perceived implications - they do not provide evidence for a god, nor specify what god to believe. it is just as likely that we invented and hold on to religion because we want to believe those things exist
are we forget ? who is the Creator us in the world? is it a human? is it a president? or is it a priest? we are burned in to the world because of god hand,, the god have been giving us mercy and blessing so we can enjoy in this world with many complete body,,every day,,every time,, the god was giving us existence so we can take a walk with our girlfriend or our boyfriend go to the mall,, hangout,, eating,, swimming,,joking,, and other event,, ARE YOU DO NOT REALIZE ? the god was giving us two hand so we can use it for doing something such as eating,,foot ball,, play a game,, giving thing to pauper and other good action,, ARE YOU STILL DO NOT REALIZE ?
is it more likely that an animal with 10 fingers, 10 toes, a heart, a brain, fingernails, lungs, appendix, eyes etc - started eating some meat which was easier for digestion using less energy to process food allowing for better brain development leading to several branches of hominids (homo sapiens, neanderthal, etc.) and homo sapiens survived by adapting well to the changes that occurred
or
an all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful, all good, omnipresent yet invisible, 3-spirit single god breathed into dirt to make us in his image which just so happened to look a lot like that monkey and have 98.5% of the same dna?
It comes as no suprise that you sound like a moron, because to believe the point you're trying to make you would in fact have to be a moron...realize that. Now what do you have to say for the people living in the horrible places of the world who never see one ounce of joy. Why has "god" neglected the people of North Korea and just chose to give us happiness and swimming, and football, and walking with our girlfriends. Ha you are so naive it's pathetic
Stop speaking in tongues, for none whom I know can interpret your tongue. I recommend that you debate with people of your own tongue and forego debating people of a tongue that you clearly don't understand. For your sakes, and your sakes alone, have I counseled you to do such!
Why not give the judgment of charity and not condemnation. Wouldn't you expect that if you were visiting a foreign country?
So, where is your post that illustrates charity in lieu of condemnation toward ‘fachrulisme’?
Secondly, my counsel is an act of charity. It could be said that I spared ‘fachrulisme’ from a scathing assault against his/her faith, whatsoever that may be.
Belief in God, religion irrelevant is good and has been proven to be beneficial to the psyche of the average person. Humans can't comprehend with the notion that someday your life will end. So a psychological response was made. The idea of a benevolent being watching over you after you die. I for one DO believe in a place after life , despite not believing the most widely accepted religions.
However abuses of the idea are common, for instance dying/killing/sacrificing yourself or somebody else for GOD because that is supposedly the greater good.
I was lost in the Darkest parts of my own wicked ways, spiraling down a path of destruction leading me away from His Almighty ways, and all the while im going down ONLY ONE, He could save me. No matter how far i looked on this lowly planet, i never once found a soul who could manage, to show me the love that i truly needed, because on this planet aint nothing but hate and contempt have been breeded. the lowly snake slithering as he goes through the towns of man looking for lowly lowly souls, to feed on so that it could plant it's evil seeds, and so that throughout the generations nothing but evil and hate we could recieve, but those where the ways of the past, my brothers and sisters. the devil had a hold of us and he managed through our parents, down through the generations His ways have been lost, and because of the us, the devil has turned and tossed, We can All be saved, all we need is Thanksgiving, to the One who Above, for All of His Givings. The devils trying to stop me right now as i speak, but Faithful to the Lord and willit He, that i may be meek. Because it is He not i that gives you this message but it is The One that we All should seek. i know that it is hard to find Rest, as we all go through this test some call a game, every single last one of us, probably, training to gain and retain our fame. But That is not what this life is about, i have a Strong feeling that we are All getting our Water from the wrong wrong spout. because thats all the devil has for us is a little bit, of pleasure, then comes the pain. steady feeding our bodies what i see now Is Insane. because ya'll hafto see that we are all carnally minded, and This is the reason The LORD, us he has blinded, binding, ourselves to our own flesh, so that eventually we would All fail this Test. but know that The Lord, He loves us, and wishes nothing but the best, and all He wants is for us to Love Him all the while through this Test. some wonder why we see nadoes and quakes, He needs ya'll to know that its Ya'lls souls that He is trying to shake. and bake if you will, so the devil may not have his fill, to letchya'll know that there is NONE like that ALMIGHTY AND ALL POWERFULL ONE. i say full because Hes filled with Love, like None that we have seen on this lowly earth, but now that i have SEEN, my Eyes have been UnBlinded, and now it is He, He who signs this, letter so maybe that some of Ya'll could listen, and Maybe get the Message that He is trying to dish, out of His spout, so that ya'll might be fed, with all of His Love, His Water, And His Bread. Don't for a second think any of Ya'll are living, All of ya'll are dead and for the devil are you "living" as i sit here and do this all of the "dome" just know that it is Not me and that this is His tomb. He is singing through me in these words and this song, so that maybe one day we All can be free all the day long, and ya'll can say its cheesy if ya'll want, but just know the devil in you he does flaunt x) i had to stop and show ya'll how i felt about that one, cuz its the truth, and right now i have a Strong feeling He is swinging harder than that brother Babe Ruth, or ballin harder than micheal jordan, and in this song he Is Playing His Accordian. Ya'll just need to know that He is our Guardian, and right now im flying Higher than any single air jordan, because my love i gave to Him more than any of Ya'll so i guess i can say more than them. But dont getit twizted like boi's if ya'll know, that me and moreover Him, have a lot to show. we are all brothers and sisters, but i should call us the missers, because we all fail to see the smaller things in this world, without even thinking twice, what truly brings a man alot of happiness or to see the pain that ALOT of us have in us. i know that we are all hurting on the inside, and for ya'll who say we dont, Boi, you know that is a lie, because only with Him and not that evil leech from down south, can we truly fly. higher than the highest of trees or the tallest of mountains, But in Him we Have to trust, so that We may Drink From The One and Only True fountain, only because of Him can i do this for days, and its Because i gave Him my love, thanksgiving, and praise. so now that i have seen what it is truly to be Man, Men of God, all these hater out there who bout to say something aint nuthing more than sod. sorry if it dont make sense, just know that me and Him the latter first, We are just trying to give His children, ya'll some mother lovin cents. forgive me if i pause for no longer am i a vulgar man life is just a beach, and Now, He is playing in the sand, hopefully in the minds of the young, the daughters and sons, i have my holster, and now the Lord is my Gun, Shining Brighter, than a million suns, times two, because His love is True, actually make that twenty twenty, because He is aplenty, in me in you and All, i just hope that ya'll can hear His call, so that maybe that ya'll may not fall, into the Pit, but right now i can say the devil is probably having a fit, of anxiety cuz he is losing his "children" just know that we are God's and with me He has been pilfering, in my mind day and night, as i have been in my room trying to stay out of sight, of ya'll because all it seems like to me, that nothing to ya'll it would please, more, than to see one of your own fellow brother get shot and fall. when i look around me i dont see any real love, this evil surrounds me, but Now i DO NOT CARE, because the Lord, THE LORD, HE has found me. so now ya'll cannot touch, because with His love, im about to bust. with loving Faith and Trust, i put in Him, so that i can be led away from this life of sin, and Now that i have His Trust, my brotha's and sista's, not just the black ones, comeon now, that just is not a must, there is no such thing man, all that is, is nothing more than an evil thought, brought up in vain, so that maybe a man's soul, that leech, can be bought. Quit being evil, for it is Love, that should be sought, out so once again we may be fed from His Spout, for only He can give us what we need so that in the end we may succeed. my brothers and sisters all we need to do is Believe, and then, Anything, together, WE CAN ACHIEVE. this is an ode to ya'll so in hopes once again that ya'll may hear The Call, and will not fall, so one day me, ya'll, and The Almighty,Perfect, like a prefect without the er, Omnipotent, and Patient ONE, that together we May All Ball. and they keep telling me to stop, but i just cant my brothers me and Him are headed to the top, and right now i got The Heart Of A Lion, King, and pray tell me my brothers and sisters who are reading, what single Beast can stop that king? of the jungle we are running but with Him we can be free. out into the open pasture we all can roam, just know this is not me, and that this is His Tomb. its wierd how they're spelled alike but do not rhyme, im talking bout bomb my brothers, and its One of a Kind. in the Hopes that this petty rhyme, can help lead the black sheep, away from the Blind, being themselves, for who? tell me can save them from that? if you dont answer right then your a part of this blight that runs rampant through the streets, evil im talking about and all it wants to do is eat, your souls because it is angry at the Living God, hahahaha for it is nothing more than a sod, on His Cleat as He is Running, Hoping that some of these Words, hit you right in the stomach, and make you sick, but not you, im talking about the evil you, for we are all children of God, but we have made ourselves nothing more than a sod =( i say with a heavy heart, because all this time we have been playing the devil, his part, but with Him it is nothing but a fart, because He Forgives, and Only Through Him may we EVER, get the chance to Live, and im not talking about on the earth, im talking about another, and maybe one day you can see and i can Truly call you my Brother, for there is Life in Death, but it is only gained through this life which is a test, just know that when we die, if you have lived righteously, on that day you will Fly, for the Lord will Breathe His Breath in you when you die and like i said before You Will Fly, but not if you keep eating from the devil's table, for you can only eat from one, and i hope its Not the devil's table. for if we Eat from Him, we can All go back into His Stable, and only in doing that can we Ever truly be stable, only only if, we are eating from, The Living God's Table. and for ya'll who are sitting at your computers steadily dissin Him, i pray for you, because it you are missin, Him and the bigger picture, just know right now im taking a Big Gulp From His Ultimate Pitcher, not one from the MLB, and if you are listening then i pray that you sea, i mean see, but with Him we can fly over the one before, and higher than mike, dunk it in, right for a score, but not for 2 for it is for 3, because He is Holy in me, but atm holy in you, because you missing some parts, we all need to change, so that we may play His Part, that He intended from the Beginning, because only With Him can we ever be winning, but hahahaha not as long as we are sinning. for that is not the way that we was meant to walk, With Him we was mean to Walk and Talk. once again i say this way i, used to, but we choose to live, is insane in the membrane, but He is using me as His Template, lol or templar whichever you prefer, just know that He is Prefect, ha just without the errrr. as i sit here steadily dissin em i mean the demons in the minds of the children of the One and Only, God Who Is Kind, i hope that they depart, so we can All gaze upon The Divine, not like wine or watch, i aint lil wayne, just know that i feel like im the only one who is sane. because i AM NOT PERFECT, do not get the wrong message for that would hurt me, only He is, and He just wants some love from His Kids, but for some odd reason... we still choose to do the evil leeches bids, for i feel he has sucked to much from us, all of our blood, i mean soul, it has tucked from us, and right now He is aiming at it with a Big Ol' Blunderbuss. to shoot it and unleech it, from His Children's Soul's so one day maybe we can gaze upon, That Wonderful City Of Gold, and dont letit peak your in ter ests, for if you do your not getting whats bests, from this test that He has beset, for our minds to ponder and think on, maybe in some of the hearts out there this message is shining, for He is a Beacon of Light, to shine out all the evils, and end this ugly, hateful blight, that courses through our vains, that nasty garbage that makes us feel insane, because no one is living right, and for That NONE is sane. you can talk and sit there and chatter, but i pray and hope that none get fatter, and im not talking because of mcdonalds, im talking about your ego and pride, because We Alll NEED to push that aside, all we seem to do is breed hate and contempt, sitting there looking for another hurt sould to feed on, thinking it makes us content, but just know NOW people, lolol all your doing is letting the devil be your PIMP! ha ha ha i think that really funny, because in the words of man that just makes ya'll some ho's, and please forgive my trespasses my sisters and brothers, for my vulgar words, because i Did Not mean to hurt, He's just trying to keep our faces from being rubbed in the dirt. but it really shouldnt matter because we are mud, and from One we all came, so can i not call ya'll blood??? nah im not talking about them two glock shotta's, im talking bout from The One Who Has Always Got Us, not us as in the navy, i mean us as in the ones who might sit on that bus, the one going to school and to the ones who drool in class, and all of us who needs a kick in the, pause, ya'll know what i mean, im just sitting here trying not be obscene, all im trying to do is get the bigger picture, through ya'll minds so that maybe one day, we can All WALK IN THE LORDS WAY. forgive me if i make any of ya'll mad, if i do know that i Am sad, but how about ya'll just go to the store and go and grab on of them happy hefty bags, you know i meant glad if you didnt you are simple, and forgive me as i sit here and bust this pimple, lol sorry that was nasty just know that i didnt, and know that we are all fake, and its time for some rhino plasty, or however its spelled im just hoping some hearts will melt, like the plastic we are, and become melded into flesh, as i sit here and type in this Soul Food test, for if ya'll can't hear me then your hearts are so cold, forgive me as i trespass, because, uhm, i Am not trying to be bold, im just tryna through some fia atcha hearts, in the hopes that you may leave the Dark, ness not loch just in case thats watchu thought, all you gotta do is leave your flesh behind, and know that He is the one who Should Be Sought, out so we can drank From His Spout, cuz the Lord Knows, man it has been a drought. we are all so thirsty, but in order to be filled its The Lord who must come firsty x) just know that me and Him are going Stooopid, and for those who are real maaan i thoughtchu knew it. and if you dont i pray you haven't already blew it, up i mean your ego, like a balloon, just know right now i feel like taz boi, yup them looney toones, or tunes whichever you prefer, just know that He is Prefect, just without the err. and i say pre because He was always here, yes before you and me, but with Him i wanna letchu know that we can all be as pure, and as white as the snow, just like powder we can all be melted, i mean melded into the beings we were meant to be, so one day we may fly free as a dove, Right over the sea, so that we all can reach New Jerusalem, yup just right where we was all meant to be, that is the Golden City for those who did not, know, im just hoping that one day we can All be as pure as the snow, because the evil has taunted and flaunted and given us a show, to peak i mean perk up our ears and it, that leech i mean, gave us nothing but fears, fears of ourselves and one another, fears from our sisters and daughter, Father, and brothers, but we have a right to Fear the Living God, because to Him we have all become a sod, He is sorrowful and cries as we follow, the evil being, who was never meant to be followed, and i felt His pain at one point in time, yes i Am talking About the Divine, we both cried together, in my room, because of the little things we miss, something just as small as, a heartfelt kiss... for it is the little things that bring us the greatest joy, not some diamond chain, or a, wind up toy, the biggest thing of all that should, is His Love, should bring us the Greatest joy, in the world, for thats all it is man just cars and noise, all the long going our way, Missing the sweetest noise, zes ya'll know what i mean, im talking about the One who is Never obscene, for He is Just And Right, in each and every single way, and for our sins my borhters and sisters, we have to pay, but do not fret for it is never to late, I think we all need to call upon The Divine, and we should All go on a date, do not worry for on this date there is no rape, or murder, or hate, for that is of the devil, and Your Soul it will take, there is no worries once you follow Him, we should all be hand in hand as we walk down this path, called, life Never having to worry about no pain or strife, or for a bigger picture His Wrath, but ONLY IF WE DRINK FROM HIS PITCHER. for The All Powerful and Righteous Wrath, only comes when you stray from His Path, it is there to show us our wrongs...can you feel His Soul as i sit here and Sing His song? and with Him i will NEVER fall, because with my Brother, I will always Hear His Call. i say we but it is Him, who say these words to in the hopes, that those who have an Ear to listen may never Fall, into the Pit, all you have to do is have Faith, Follow The Ten, Believe, and never EVER Quit, for in order to gain His All Perfect and Good Graces, we have to eliminate ALL the Hate and evil, in all sorts of places, i have a feeling this song was wrote long before, just in His mind and now in mine, and i sing His song in the Hopes, that you follow Him and not any of these "popes" for no hope lies in them, lol and if you truly think aboutit that actually rhymed, just know that im thinking of Him, foremost, but ya'll too as i steadily write This Rhyme, it comes from above yup, Straight From the Divine, in the Hopes that one day ya'll can SEE, exactly it was that we was missing, so we can All fly over the sea. Man this thing is long but i should Say God, because this is His Rhyme, and not from a sod, like me or you, if you real you can feel its True, as His Sword aims at the hearts of His good, flying Straight and Through, lol i mean True, but them if you can follow my friend, all we gotta do is sing Praises and Thanksgiving to Him, until the very end, and give Him all of our love, Because WITHOUT HIM, ha There WOULD BE NO LOVE, all there would be is pain and suffering, and i hope that the ones who are, suffer, i mean acating, Might actually stop and take the time to sit there and be debating, against the devil of course, cuz all it wants to do is, lead us, right, or left, but straight off our course. Lord Please Forgive me, if i am being coarse just know that i am your back, and You Are My Horse, lol ya'll might think He's heavy but He's really not, and i Love Him till Death, i mean Life, cuz i have found It, but back to the point, because i HE HAS TAUGHT, never went to church or none of that, maybe when i was younger but none of that, for our minds our are churches, ha gotit backwards but i feel as tall as the burches, talking bout them trees man im over the seas man, just know i cant, wait, My Father, until You Kick Over My Can Man x) aw man i thoughit was funny, because he's One Cool Dude, and i am His, Bunny, i mean Collie, and know that as i, i mean He, but as i bark, that i have a Strong feeling, that i am playing my Part, or His i prefer the latter but the choice is yurs, because it is His Puzzle, and i am the last part, i cant be for certain because the Knowledge is His, but im just trying to bring His Black Sheep back, you know i mean His KIDS, He thoughtit was funny, But ya'll best Believe that He NOR i the first comes first, but neither one of us is No, pause, Dummy, lol but if you choose you can beat and bite, whatever you do just know it is out of spite, and i dont capitilize because its an evil word, just know me and HIM, are trying to end this wrongful blight, and saying these words i Hope that maybe, just maybe some can be given the Sight, that HE intended us to have, right, from Go, talking bout monopoly,lol but no no more, from the start maaaan all HE ever wanted was us to give our heart, which is HIS, because He gave to us, All that is HIS, HE just Wanted someone to talk to man, thats why HE made HIS Kids, HE was all alone, and then HE built, a Beautiful place for us, and HIM, to walk and talk all the while, just laughing and talking, seeing eachother smile =) because HE is our FATHER, He's not as mean ha as ya'll would believe, just know that HE TRULY IS ONE BENEVOLENT KING. lol ha ha i think this is funny, He knows what im talking about, cuz this is all of the top of the dome with barely a second to pause, Just Know the THE LION KING, Has Opened HIS Claws, Blessed be the children who took the time to listen, to the message that a, and The King is steadily dishin, i say a because i am one too, but know that im a servant, and from a Seed i did Grew, i dont care if it makes no sense to ya'll because i have heard the Lords Call, and they, they know who they are, are always listening, and as He types, through, me i have a feeling they are about to call, Prayer is the Best Wireless Connection X) aint no service down here got that type of Connection, i just hope that i get to see some of ya'll at that intersection, i mean Crossroads, bone thugz n harmony, they said it first, man thats the song man and if you feel their soul, then maybe you should hurt, because those bois on the streets back in the day, all they was doing was searching for some Peace, but in the streets, the oppressors, following the devil, have no love for us in the slums, just know that we All have a Holster and God Is our Gun, we dont need no metal, for The Lord our issues HE will settle, all you gotta do is Have some Faith, saying this in hope that some dont see any wraiths, talking demons people come now and please listen, as the Lord spits his song and these Words HE is dishin, out yup you getting it word of mouf, lol or mouth whichever you prefer just DONT follow that lowly snake, yup the one down south, it might try and offer pleasure and happiness butits all fake, HA what do ya'll expect from a lowly snake? remeber eve as she sat under that tree? sitting there thinking and feeling the breeze? the snake spoke in her Ear temptation it did bring, and after teel me WHO did she fear? she had a split second of happiness and thats all it can give, and after that she felt the WRATH which is ONLY HIS, lol i hope that ya'll see, the way we live people, it just wasn't meant to be, i have a feeling that there all up there laughing, with, not at me as i type out His message, and i pray ALMIGHTY FATHER, THE ONES WHO HAVE AN EAR TO LISTEN PLEASE FATHER PLEASE LET THE HEAR. and the ones who dont i pray you dont hit him hard, maybe just a little tap, just like Babe Ruth, on that baseball card x) Peace be with you my sisters and brothers, just know that HIS LOVE IS LIKE NO OTHER, GOD BLESS ALL WHO FINISHED, AND I PRAY YOUR SOULS NEVER, DIMINISH. ONE HEART IS ALL, AND WITH THAT HEART WE CAN NEVER FALL, lol i said i was finished, but i dont think HE is as you can tell this words are not mine, THEY COME FROM THE UPPER BEING, yup THE DIVINE!!! i think im going to cut Him short and please Forgive me, because i know HE could go all day, BECAUSE I CAN FEEL HIM IN ME.
I was lost in the Darkest parts of my own wicked ways, spiraling down a path of destruction leading me away from His Almighty ways, and all the while im going down ONLY ONE, He could save me. No matter how far i looked on this lowly planet, i never once found a soul who could manage, to show me the love that i truly needed, because on this planet aint nothing but hate and contempt have been breeded. the lowly snake slithering as he goes through the towns of man looking for lowly lowly souls, to feed on so that it could plant it's evil seeds, and so that throughout the generations nothing but evil and hate we could recieve, but those where the ways of the past, my brothers and sisters. the devil had a hold of us and he managed through our parents, down through the generations His ways have been lost, and because of the us, the devil has turned and tossed, We can All be saved, all we need is Thanksgiving, to the One who Above, for All of His Givings. The devils trying to stop me right now as i speak, but Faithful to the Lord and willit He, that i may be meek. Because it is He not i that gives you this message but it is The One that we All should seek. i know that it is hard to find Rest, as we all go through this test some call a game, every single last one of us, probably, training to gain and retain our fame. But That is not what this life is about, i have a Strong feeling that we are All getting our Water from the wrong wrong spout. because thats all the devil has for us is a little bit, of pleasure, then comes the pain. steady feeding our bodies what i see now Is Insane. because ya'll hafto see that we are all carnally minded, and This is the reason The LORD, us he has blinded, binding, ourselves to our own flesh, so that eventually we would All fail this Test. but know that The Lord, He loves us, and wishes nothing but the best, and all He wants is for us to Love Him all the while through this Test. some wonder why we see nadoes and quakes, He needs ya'll to know that its Ya'lls souls that He is trying to shake. and bake if you will, so the devil may not have his fill, to letchya'll know that there is NONE like that ALMIGHTY AND ALL POWERFULL ONE. i say full because Hes filled with Love, like None that we have seen on this lowly earth, but now that i have SEEN, my Eyes have been UnBlinded, and now it is He, He who signs this, letter so maybe that some of Ya'll could listen, and Maybe get the Message that He is trying to dish, out of His spout, so that ya'll might be fed, with all of His Love, His Water, And His Bread. Don't for a second think any of Ya'll are living, All of ya'll are dead and for the devil are you "living" as i sit here and do this all of the "dome" just know that it is Not me and that this is His tomb. He is singing through me in these words and this song, so that maybe one day we All can be free all the day long, and ya'll can say its cheesy if ya'll want, but just know the devil in you he does flaunt x) i had to stop and show ya'll how i felt about that one, cuz its the truth, and right now i have a Strong feeling He is swinging harder than that brother Babe Ruth, or ballin harder than micheal jordan, and in this song he Is Playing His Accordian. Ya'll just need to know that He is our Guardian, and right now im flying Higher than any single air jordan, because my love i gave to Him more than any of Ya'll so i guess i can say more than them. But dont getit twizted like boi's if ya'll know, that me and moreover Him, have a lot to show. we are all brothers and sisters, but i should call us the missers, because we all fail to see the smaller things in this world, without even thinking twice, what truly brings a man alot of happiness or to see the pain that ALOT of us have in us. i know that we are all hurting on the inside, and for ya'll who say we dont, Boi, you know that is a lie, because only with Him and not that evil leech from down south, can we truly fly. higher than the highest of trees or the tallest of mountains, But in Him we Have to trust, so that We may Drink From The One and Only True fountain, only because of Him can i do this for days, and its Because i gave Him my love, thanksgiving, and praise. so now that i have seen what it is truly to be Man, Men of God, all these hater out there who bout to say something aint nuthing more than sod. sorry if it dont make sense, just know that me and Him the latter first, We are just trying to give His children, ya'll some mother lovin cents. forgive me if i pause for no longer am i a vulgar man life is just a beach, and Now, He is playing in the sand, hopefully in the minds of the young, the daughters and sons, i have my holster, and now the Lord is my Gun, Shining Brighter, than a million suns, times two, because His love is True, actually make that twenty twenty, because He is aplenty, in me in you and All, i just hope that ya'll can hear His call, so that maybe that ya'll may not fall, into the Pit, but right now i can say the devil is probably having a fit, of anxiety cuz he is losing his "children" just know that we are God's and with me He has been pilfering, in my mind day and night, as i have been in my room trying to stay out of sight, of ya'll because all it seems like to me, that nothing to ya'll it would please, more, than to see one of your own fellow brother get shot and fall. when i look around me i dont see any real love, this evil surrounds me, but Now i DO NOT CARE, because the Lord, THE LORD, HE has found me. so now ya'll cannot touch, because with His love, im about to bust. with loving Faith and Trust, i put in Him, so that i can be led away from this life of sin, and Now that i have His Trust, my brotha's and sista's, not just the black ones, comeon now, that just is not a must, there is no such thing man, all that is, is nothing more than an evil thought, brought up in vain, so that maybe a man's soul, that leech, can be bought. Quit being evil, for it is Love, that should be sought, out so once again we may be fed from His Spout, for only He can give us what we need so that in the end we may succeed. my brothers and sisters all we need to do is Believe, and then, Anything, together, WE CAN ACHIEVE. this is an ode to ya'll so in hopes once again that ya'll may hear The Call, and will not fall, so one day me, ya'll, and The Almighty,Perfect, like a prefect without the er, Omnipotent, and Patient ONE, that together we May All Ball. and they keep telling me to stop, but i just cant my brothers me and Him are headed to the top, and right now i got The Heart Of A Lion, King, and pray tell me my brothers and sisters who are reading, what single Beast can stop that king? of the jungle we are running but with Him we can be free. out into the open pasture we all can roam, just know this is not me, and that this is His Tomb. its wierd how they're spelled alike but do not rhyme, im talking bout bomb my brothers, and its One of a Kind. in the Hopes that this petty rhyme, can help lead the black sheep, away from the Blind, being themselves, for who? tell me can save them from that? if you dont answer right then your a part of this blight that runs rampant through the streets, evil im talking about and all it wants to do is eat, your souls because it is angry at the Living God, hahahaha for it is nothing more than a sod, on His Cleat as He is Running, Hoping that some of these Words, hit you right in the stomach, and make you sick, but not you, im talking about the evil you, for we are all children of God, but we have made ourselves nothing more than a sod =( i say with a heavy heart, because all this time we have been playing the devil, his part, but with Him it is nothing but a fart, because He Forgives, and Only Through Him may we EVER, get the chance to Live, and im not talking about on the earth, im talking about another, and maybe one day you can see and i can Truly call you my Brother, for there is Life in Death, but it is only gained through this life which is a test, just know that when we die, if you have lived righteously, on that day you will Fly, for the Lord will Breathe His Breath in you when you die and like i said before You Will Fly, but not if you keep eating from the devil's table, for you can only eat from one, and i hope its Not the devil's table. for if we Eat from Him, we can All go back into His Stable, and only in doing that can we Ever truly be stable, only only if, we are eating from, The Living God's Table. and for ya'll who are sitting at your computers steadily dissin Him, i pray for you, because it you are missin, Him and the bigger picture, just know right now im taking a Big Gulp From His Ultimate Pitcher, not one from the MLB, and if you are listening then i pray that you sea, i mean see, but with Him we can fly over the one before, and higher than mike, dunk it in, right for a score, but not for 2 for it is for 3, because He is Holy in me, but atm holy in you, because you missing some parts, we all need to change, so that we may play His Part, that He intended from the Beginning, because only With Him can we ever be winning, but hahahaha not as long as we are sinning. for that is not the way that we was meant to walk, With Him we was mean to Walk and Talk. once again i say this way i, used to, but we choose to live, is insane in the membrane, but He is using me as His Template, lol or templar whichever you prefer, just know that He is Prefect, ha just without the errrr. as i sit here steadily dissin em i mean the demons in the minds of the children of the One and Only, God Who Is Kind, i hope that they depart, so we can All gaze upon The Divine, not like wine or watch, i aint lil wayne, just know that i feel like im the only one who is sane. because i AM NOT PERFECT, do not get the wrong message for that would hurt me, only He is, and He just wants some love from His Kids, but for some odd reason... we still choose to do the evil leeches bids, for i feel he has sucked to much from us, all of our blood, i mean soul, it has tucked from us, and right now He is aiming at it with a Big Ol' Blunderbuss. to shoot it and unleech it, from His Children's Soul's so one day maybe we can gaze upon, That Wonderful City Of Gold, and dont letit peak your in ter ests, for if you do your not getting whats bests, from this test that He has beset, for our minds to ponder and think on, maybe in some of the hearts out there this message is shining, for He is a Beacon of Light, to shine out all the evils, and end this ugly, hateful blight, that courses through our vains, that nasty garbage that makes us feel insane, because no one is living right, and for That NONE is sane. you can talk and sit there and chatter, but i pray and hope that none get fatter, and im not talking because of mcdonalds, im talking about your ego and pride, because We Alll NEED to push that aside, all we seem to do is breed hate and contempt, sitting there looking for another hurt sould to feed on, thinking it makes us content, but just know NOW people, lolol all your doing is letting the devil be your PIMP! ha ha ha i think that really funny, because in the words of man that just makes ya'll some ho's, and please forgive my trespasses my sisters and brothers, for my vulgar words, because i Did Not mean to hurt, He's just trying to keep our faces from being rubbed in the dirt. but it really shouldnt matter because we are mud, and from One we all came, so can i not call ya'll blood??? nah im not talking about them two glock shotta's, im talking bout from The One Who Has Always Got Us, not us as in the navy, i mean us as in the ones who might sit on that bus, the one going to school and to the ones who drool in class, and all of us who needs a kick in the, pause, ya'll know what i mean, im just sitting here trying not be obscene, all im trying to do is get the bigger picture, through ya'll minds so that maybe one day, we can All WALK IN THE LORDS WAY. forgive me if i make any of ya'll mad, if i do know that i Am sad, but how about ya'll just go to the store and go and grab on of them happy hefty bags, you know i meant glad if you didnt you are simple, and forgive me as i sit here and bust this pimple, lol sorry that was nasty just know that i didnt, and know that we are all fake, and its time for some rhino plasty, or however its spelled im just hoping some hearts will melt, like the plastic we are, and become melded into flesh, as i sit here and type in this Soul Food test, for if ya'll can't hear me then your hearts are so cold, forgive me as i trespass, because, uhm, i Am not trying to be bold, im just tryna through some fia atcha hearts, in the hopes that you may leave the Dark, ness not loch just in case thats watchu thought, all you gotta do is leave your flesh behind, and know that He is the one who Should Be Sought, out so we can drank From His Spout, cuz the Lord Knows, man it has been a drought. we are all so thirsty, but in order to be filled its The Lord who must come firsty x) just know that me and Him are going Stooopid, and for those who are real maaan i thoughtchu knew it. and if you dont i pray you haven't already blew it, up i mean your ego, like a balloon, just know right now i feel like taz boi, yup them looney toones, or tunes whichever you prefer, just know that He is Prefect, just without the err. and i say pre because He was always here, yes before you and me, but with Him i wanna letchu know that we can all be as pure, and as white as the snow, just like powder we can all be melted, i mean melded into the beings we were meant to be, so one day we may fly free as a dove, Right over the sea, so that we all can reach New Jerusalem, yup just right where we was all meant to be, that is the Golden City for those who did not, know, im just hoping that one day we can All be as pure as the snow, because the evil has taunted and flaunted and given us a show, to peak i mean perk up our ears and it, that leech i mean, gave us nothing but fears, fears of ourselves and one another, fears from our sisters and daughter, Father, and brothers, but we have a right to Fear the Living God, because to Him we have all become a sod, He is sorrowful and cries as we follow, the evil being, who was never meant to be followed, and i felt His pain at one point in time, yes i Am talking About the Divine, we both cried together, in my room, because of the little things we miss, something just as small as, a heartfelt kiss... for it is the little things that bring us the greatest joy, not some diamond chain, or a, wind up toy, the biggest thing of all that should, is His Love, should bring us the Greatest joy, in the world, for thats all it is man just cars and noise, all the long going our way, Missing the sweetest noise, zes ya'll know what i mean, im talking about the One who is Never obscene, for He is Just And Right, in each and every single way, and for our sins my borhters and sisters, we have to pay, but do not fret for it is never to late, I think we all need to call upon The Divine, and we should All go on a date, do not worry for on this date there is no rape, or murder, or hate, for that is of the devil, and Your Soul it will take, there is no worries once you follow Him, we should all be hand in hand as we walk down this path, called, life Never having to worry about no pain or strife, or for a bigger picture His Wrath, but ONLY IF WE DRINK FROM HIS PITCHER. for The All Powerful and Righteous Wrath, only comes when you stray from His Path, it is there to show us our wrongs...can you feel His Soul as i sit here and Sing His song? and with Him i will NEVER fall, because with my Brother, I will always Hear His Call. i say we but it is Him, who say these words to in the hopes, that those who have an Ear to listen may never Fall, into the Pit, all you have to do is have Faith, Follow The Ten, Believe, and never EVER Quit, for in order to gain His All Perfect and Good Graces, we have to eliminate ALL the Hate and evil, in all sorts of places, i have a feeling this song was wrote long before, just in His mind and now in mine, and i sing His song in the Hopes, that you follow Him and not any of these "popes" for no hope lies in them, lol and if you truly think aboutit that actually rhymed, just know that im thinking of Him, foremost, but ya'll too as i steadily write This Rhyme, it comes from above yup, Straight From the Divine, in the Hopes that one day ya'll can SEE, exactly it was that we was missing, so we can All fly over the sea. Man this thing is long but i should Say God, because this is His Rhyme, and not from a sod, like me or you, if you real you can feel its True, as His Sword aims at the hearts of His good, flying Straight and Through, lol i mean True, but them if you can follow my friend, all we gotta do is sing Praises and Thanksgiving to Him, until the very end, and give Him all of our love, Because WITHOUT HIM, ha There WOULD BE NO LOVE, all there would be is pain and suffering, and i hope that the ones who are, suffer, i mean acating, Might actually stop and take the time to sit there and be debating, against the devil of course, cuz all it wants to do is, lead us, right, or left, but straight off our course. Lord Please Forgive me, if i am being coarse just know that i am your back, and You Are My Horse, lol ya'll might think He's heavy but He's really not, and i Love Him till Death, i mean Life, cuz i have found It, but back to the point, because i HE HAS TAUGHT, never went to church or none of that, maybe when i was younger but none of that, for our minds our are churches, ha gotit backwards but i feel as tall as the burches, talking bout them trees man im over the seas man, just know i cant, wait, My Father, until You Kick Over My Can Man x) aw man i thoughit was funny, because he's One Cool Dude, and i am His, Bunny, i mean Collie, and know that as i, i mean He, but as i bark, that i have a Strong feeling, that i am playing my Part, or His i prefer the latter but the choice is yurs, because it is His Puzzle, and i am the last part, i cant be for certain because the Knowledge is His, but im just trying to bring His Black Sheep back, you know i mean His KIDS, He thoughtit was funny, But ya'll best Believe that He NOR i the first comes first, but neither one of us is No, pause, Dummy, lol but if you choose you can beat and bite, whatever you do just know it is out of spite, and i dont capitilize because its an evil word, just know me and HIM, are trying to end this wrongful blight, and saying these words i Hope that maybe, just maybe some can be given the Sight, that HE intended us to have, right, from Go, talking bout monopoly,lol but no no more, from the start maaaan all HE ever wanted was us to give our heart, which is HIS, because He gave to us, All that is HIS, HE just Wanted someone to talk to man, thats why HE made HIS Kids, HE was all alone, and then HE built, a Beautiful place for us, and HIM, to walk and talk all the while, just laughing and talking, seeing eachother smile =) because HE is our FATHER, He's not as mean ha as ya'll would believe, just know that HE TRULY IS ONE BENEVOLENT KING. lol ha ha i think this is funny, He knows what im talking about, cuz this is all of the top of the dome with barely a second to pause, Just Know the THE LION KING, Has Opened HIS Claws, Blessed be the children who took the time to listen, to the message that a, and The King is steadily dishin, i say a because i am one too, but know that im a servant, and from a Seed i did Grew, i dont care if it makes no sense to ya'll because i have heard the Lords Call, and they, they know who they are, are always listening, and as He types, through, me i have a feeling they are about to call, Prayer is the Best Wireless Connection X) aint no service down here got that type of Connection, i just hope that i get to see some of ya'll at that intersection, i mean Crossroads, bone thugz n harmony, they said it first, man thats the song man and if you feel their soul, then maybe you should hurt, because those bois on the streets back in the day, all they was doing was searching for some Peace, but in the streets, the oppressors, following the devil, have no love for us in the slums, just know that we All have a Holster and God Is our Gun, we dont need no metal, for The Lord our issues HE will settle, all you gotta do is Have some Faith, saying this in hope that some dont see any wraiths, talking demons people come now and please listen, as the Lord spits his song and these Words HE is dishin, out yup you getting it word of mouf, lol or mouth whichever you prefer just DONT follow that lowly snake, yup the one down south, it might try and offer pleasure and happiness butits all fake, HA what do ya'll expect from a lowly snake? remeber eve as she sat under that tree? sitting there thinking and feeling the breeze? the snake spoke in her Ear temptation it did bring, and after teel me WHO did she fear? she had a split second of happiness and thats all it can give, and after that she felt the WRATH which is ONLY HIS, lol i hope that ya'll see, the way we live people, it just wasn't meant to be, i have a feeling that there all up there laughing, with, not at me as i type out His message, and i pray ALMIGHTY FATHER, THE ONES WHO HAVE AN EAR TO LISTEN PLEASE FATHER PLEASE LET THE HEAR. and the ones who dont i pray you dont hit him hard, maybe just a little tap, just like Babe Ruth, on that baseball card x) Peace be with you my sisters and brothers, just know that HIS LOVE IS LIKE NO OTHER, GOD BLESS ALL WHO FINISHED, AND I PRAY YOUR SOULS NEVER, DIMINISH. ONE HEART IS ALL, AND WITH THAT HEART WE CAN NEVER FALL, lol i said i was finished, but i dont think HE is as you can tell this words are not mine, THEY COME FROM THE UPPER BEING, yup THE DIVINE!!! i think im going to cut Him short and please Forgive me, because i know HE could go all day, BECAUSE I CAN FEEL HIM IN ME.
What does it take to decide what is the greater good. You need a moral agent using logic and reason to asses a current situation and then to judge that against a perceived standard.
The only thing in that string of events that is physical and made up of matter is the moral agent, but it's morality,logic, reason, assessment and judgment are not. To put it another way; you can't open it's head and see it's thoughts. They have no projection in space; a characteristic of matter. And don't tell me it's like computer memory because every one knows what happens to your hard-drive when you put to much on it. The last time I checked, no ones head gets bigger the more they know ( well I guess it does in one way) The point is that these are non-physical realities. And no they're not the product of chemical reactions, you can mix water and baking soda all day and the bubbles will never talk to you.
Point is this; If atheism is true than we have a whole lot of stuff that shouldn't be here. A lot of non-physical realities in a purely physical world. A lot of stuff that atheism can't account for. Well, they can if they use those non-physical realities to prove that those non-physical don't exist. Oh whoops, darn it that's a self refuting argument.
i believe there is more evidence that the greater good is decided by the greater - politically that is. whether a king or a democratic plurality, our morals tend to evolve along with the society the sets them.
I would challenge your assertion that there are "a lot of non-physical realities in a purely physical world". What realities are these? Give concrete examples, don't just throw out the assertion.
For example, you could say, "I believe the mind is an example of a non-physical reality." I would disagree, but then we could argue about it.
People who need a god in order to feel they should follow the laws are literally sick in the mind, and they should be isolated from the rest of the world. They lack real, concrete morals and a decent understanding of the world. We should not feed this behavior, because if they ever snap, they become extremely dangerous.
Instead of threatening people with the wrath of god and eternal hellfire, we should explain why love and understanding is important. We should explain to them that we are all in this together, and without empathy and caring(the Russians played out a sick experiment to prove this one), we would die. We should explain that when you help someone, you have helped yourself. We should explain that pain and sweat are necessary to survive.
Most importantly though, we should explain that the only part of them that will be left here when they die is what they did, and your actions are a mark on you for eternity, god or no god.
Recently, I have begun to believe in a higher power again. I don't know what it is, but I do know this:
What Jesus was trying to get people to see was the value of freedom. The power of numbers, the power of helping, the power of love, the power of caring, and why it matters. Most people see Jesus as an icon who was crucified for being 'too awesome' or 'too great'. They killed Jesus because he was trying to teach people what it means to care. I firmly believe that if there is a god, and he is the christian god, that he wants people to act with moral integrity for the love of the world. Not because there's a hell. People tend to get that twisted.
Please for everyone, Kindness for Kindness sake, not for heaven or hell. Tread the noble path with noble intent, and you are truly a good person. Tread the noble path because you're afraid of being hurt, and you're a fucking coward.
Hopefully you're not being serious in the first paragraph. In general human kind is decent. You're making it seem that the world can live without authority. My point is that we need some form of authority and that God is the ultimate authority.
Again people are decent and do things out of their own hearts, but the world doesn't work in that way, the majority of people need to be pushed in the right direction, no matter how big or small that push is.
I am not trying to portray God as a terrible guy with a whip which keeps as in line. Only showing His superiority to the police or law.
Who is God? The Almighty, Benevolent, Omniscient etc. He is the most moral, righteous, loving, wise etc. He is perfection. That is God. God tells people to do out of love, nobility, righteousness etc. But he has also set the law. Because He is God, His law is right, so living by His word is right. We cannot decide what is right or wrong, as we all have different opinions of what is wrong or right. So if you are to say tread the noble path... wtf is the noble path? It's easy to say, but your noble path is completely different to my noble path and if everybodies noble path is different then there is only one being who can truly decide what is right and wrong as He is Right. THAT is God. He loves you, He takes care of you, He guides you, He juedges you, He punishes and rewards you. In the end He can do everything that nobody else can do.
You sir, are sick in the head and should be isolated from the rest of society for the greater good. What you're saying is that god is the ultimate punishment and the only way people can have a sense of direction is through him. That is utter bullshit.
I honestly don't know how else I can say that.
People don't need a god. People need other people to guide them.
Lol. No I think you're sick in the head. If you think the world works without police, army, governments, courts, laws, teachers, doctors etc. then you need to be locked up.
Let me repeat - GOD IS NOT JUST THE ULTIMATE 'PUNISHMENT'. HE IS ALL. HE LOVES YOU THE MOST, HE GUIDES YOU THE BEST, HE DOES EVERYTHING BETTER THAN ANYBODY IN REAL LIFE CAN. THAT IS WHY HE IS GOD. If you have an IQ above 50 you would understand what I'm saying. So far you haven't.
Please explain to me what the definition of God is? Then tell me whether or not that definition means He is better than any human alive. It does right?... hmmmm..... So doesn't that mean by following somebody who knows all is the right way in life?... I don't know about you, but to me I would follow somebody who knew everything and would do the best for me rather than to follow somebody who knew quite a bit and would do the best for me. ANYday.
Ofcourse People need other people to guide them. THAT IS WHY GOD SENDS DOWN PROPHETS. They are there to tell people God's word.
Ofcourse People need other people to guide them. THAT IS WHY GOD SENDS DOWN PROPHETS. They are there to tell people God's word.
If god were real then he could just tell people himself. This is ridiculous logic.
Let me repeat - GOD IS NOT JUST THE ULTIMATE 'PUNISHMENT'. HE IS ALL. HE LOVES YOU THE MOST, HE GUIDES YOU THE BEST, HE DOES EVERYTHING BETTER THAN ANYBODY IN REAL LIFE CAN. THAT IS WHY HE IS GOD. If you have an IQ above 50 you would understand what I'm saying. So far you haven't.
Um, name one thing god has done in the history of mankind and you may have an argument here.
So doesn't that mean by following somebody who knows all is the right way in life?... I don't know about you, but to me I would follow somebody who knew everything and would do the best for me rather than to follow somebody who knew quite a bit and would do the best for me. ANYday
Problem is, there is no god who knows everything. I mean, even the books of any religion that were supposed to come from this mythical being are riddled with contradiction. I mean, wouldn't an all knowing everything at least not contradict themself?
The only real excuse one can make is "well, it was written by man."
Well in that case, if it's ultimately just other people you're listening to anyway when you are "hearing the word of god"
why bother with a god at all in that case? Why not just have people? - since that's all it is anyway even by the admission of the religious.
I don't remember saying there shouldn't be some sort of authority. I honestly think you're construing my words insanely though. So I'll say this as simply as possible:
If there is a god, and he is truly the Christian God, then he would not want people to be afraid of him or do the right thing just because he exists and is there.
My whole point is, you should be a good person because being a good person is the right thing to do, not because your religion says it or because your belief dictates you should. You should just be a good person.
You don't need a god to have the ability to be a responsible, loving, and caring person. If you think that, you're lost. I understand everything you are saying perfectly. You do not understand me.
We're just going round in circles. Firslty, I don't believe in Christianity. However as I've said SEVERAL times that people ARE good in GENERAL. So if YOU think that I think that we NEED GOD to be w/e.. then again you have completely missed what I've said. Not just once, or twice, but now 3 times. (That's quite a lot of times ehh)
People ARE good. But explain to me what being good is? Is murder good? In certain circumstances is it justified? Or is it never justified? I feed my kids because I love my kids, not because God tells me to. Even if he did not tell me to, I would still feed them. It's the right thing to do.
One example. Adultery. You tell me is it right or wrong? Those who have thought of or have actually cheated will say its right, but those who haven't will say its wrong. Can we make a decision on whether or not it should be punishable? In the end, God says its wrong. I think He has a better idea of whether or not its right or wrong. THAT is why we take his word, because we cannot make the right decision.
Hopefully you understand this time. Fourth time lucky. Yay........
So if people are good in general, then they should probably make good choices. If they're not making good choices, then they're not really good in general, now are they? If you give a man a knowledge of good and evil, regardless of his beliefs, he'll know what good and evil are. Whether or not his concept of good and evil are the same is up to him, isn't it? Society however, has the power to control the outliers and people who just don't get it.
Well as far as murder and other really dumb shit to pull, it's usually considered bad if you're ending up hurting people and/or the community in general by doing it. I don't need a god to tell me that shooting someone is a bad idea, or that it's going to hurt somebody. And yeah, sometimes it is justified. There are some people in this world that need to die because they're a cancer.
Adultery? Well, that's a personal choice thing now isn't it. Whether or not someone chooses to care who their mate has sex with is up to them. Most of the time people get really pissed off at that thing. If you enter a relationship where your mate would care, it's probably a bad idea to go fooling around.
I honestly do understand everything you are saying, you're being thick headed.
That's sounds nice; but why should I? It's a whole lot easier to live for myself. Besides who cares if things get better or not? If there is no God what difference does it make; everything just becomes an exercise in futility. We have no purpose or meaning apart from God. Without God what then is the moral imperative? What then is the "ought" to. Why should we care? Without God we are all headed for nothing. You should take some time to walk through a cemetery and if you get a chance to see a fresh dug grave, stare at it for a while because that my friend is your destiny.
Why should you be good for the sake of being good? because you would have a deeper and more educated understanding of the needs for kindness (for example) for you and your peers in this world.
Education allows us to understand our importance in this world, not just as individuals but as members of a society. My well-being in this world depends on how well I am able to relate to others. Education allows me to see that some actions cause harm to my peers and this is undesirable because, through education, I have attained an understanding about their personal dignity. I do not do things based on some reward, I do things based on a practical (and scientific) understanding on the consecuences of actions. Morality becomes objective and factual, not subjective like most religions that impose rules and norms only because "God says so".
Religious morality for example has been changing over time, proving that it is as subjective as any other type of opinion. the bible itself contains examples of the changes that occurr in the laws given to the people. At one point in time christians were not allowed to eat animals with hoofs, however this changed over time. We cannot base our concepts in books that change with the interpretations given to them. If we are looking for a solid conception of what the greater good is, we should find it in science and factual evidence as to what really is right or wrong behavior based on whether or not it is harmful to us.
This is just plain silly. Are you saying only through education can people be right? There are millions of people out there who are uneducated and I would say they are more likely to go to heaven than I am. Education has f*ck all to do with this.
I've said from the start not to bring different cases of religion in this. This is purely an argument about God, regardless of what religion is brought in. Not religion, not religious texts, scriptures, rules etc. I could go into greater detail and dismantle your argument but we'll be going into something completely different.
CASE STUDY: Why it's impossible to have a meaningful debate about god with the indoctrinated.
Sentence 1: "There are millions of people out there who are uneducated and I would say they are more likely to go to heaven than I am."
Sentence 2: "This is purely an argument about God, regardless of what religion is brought in. Not religion, not religious texts, scriptures, rules etc.""
This class is classic behaviour of those within a cult. They can in one sentence make a broad statement reflecting specifically their religious beliefs as stated as fact with absolutely no supporting evidence at all,
then in the next sentence accuse the one being debated of doing what the cult member just did, whether the original argument in any way reflected the response.
It is odd behaviour to any outside of that person's mind. But to that person, it is nearly impossible to see the hypocrisy, and frankly the silliness of the statement.
If you truly believe that, you are a lost cause to the world. Take some time to reevaluate who and what you are. I don't care if you have a faith or not, but when you help someone, it should be because it's the right thing to do, not because the magic sky daddy will punish you if you don't do the right thing.
If living for yourself is so easy, then do it. Prove to the world that without a god you have no moral fiber. Prove that you're just a sheep, and that's all you have the potential to ever be. And when they forge into the future, they will condemn your name, and the names everyone like you.
Perhaps there is no god, but even so, life is a precious gift. If you feel like there's no reason to live it without a god, then you're fucking useless. You have ignored Jesus' message. I wish you luck.
You should take some time to walk through a cemetery and if you get a chance to see a fresh dug grave, stare at it for a while because that my friend is your destiny.
wow... that was sooooo deep, I've never thought of death, I mean obviously that's why I'm atheist...
LMAO. Sorry, couldn't say that with a straight face.
True, we all die. But an atheist accepts that truth, and the religious live in perpetual denial.
I'm constantly amazed by people who cannot pick-up on sarcasm.
You're point was that walking through a cemetery would somehow make one believe in god,
which is an excellent point actually, as fear of death is probably when all is said and done, the number one reason people buy into religion - even more so than indoctrination.
However, I was joking. Everyone thinks of death, even atheists. It's not as if people who don't believe in an afterlife aren't aware that death is immanent.
Everyone knows, old news at this point. Walking through a cemetery is nothing but a pretty picture and self-validation for those who have chosen to believe in a myth out of fear.
I'm an atheist because 1. If there were a god it would be much more obvious. I mean... why the mystery? come on now, 82% of the world population believes in him in one form or another, you can't get that many humans to believe in anything. So what's with all the hiding? 2. It doesn't make sense. It makes far more sense from observation that humans are a happy mistake (for humans) and nothing more. All science shows pretty conclusively that life was inevitable on this planet, and likely many more considering the numbers involved. So no creator is necessary. 3. From my experience, religious people act as if they're the victims of some mass hysteria, therefore without further proof available, I must assume they are victims of some form of mass hysteria.
You know what? They are right, we are no different than animals, there is no God I'm happy and content knowing that now my life is easier because of it and when I die that will be all, that's a pretty happy ending to a great life, shitty or not.
First of all most people do believe in God for the greater good, but Jesus was here on earth to show the people that their is God. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. Jesus main reason was to give his life for our sins for NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME Jesus said and God cannot be in the presence of sin.
If you care about the greater good, you stick by it. You don't lie to get people to buy your greater good, you explain why they should. If still they decline, you keep pushing. If you know why your greater good is great, you'll be able to sell it to anyone without a single lie.
Church is to the mind, what a prison is to the body.
Do you understand the meaning of greater good? It's basically that the end justifies the means. If people were to behave better under a lie (IF God is a lie) then wouldn't it be better to promote that lie? THAT is the greater good.
I'm sorry, but just because you're right doesn't mean people will automatically follow you. World doesn't work like that.
As is evidenced by the fact that not many people followed Jesus in His time. He was right about so many things but He wasn't followed then as He might have been. Most people did doubt Him even though He was right in His teachings.
If the end justifies the means, then the "greater good" is violated through the way , then I don't think we are talking about a greater good anymore.
If the greater good is to tell the truth, and in order to do things you need to tell people a lie, then there is no more greater good present.
Maybe historically it has been erratically believed that we need some sort of mythical creature in order to be "good". But I do not think that this "greater good" has brought much greatness to humanity in the long run, as it has given way to horrible things through fanatism and it has perpetuated lack of education in many areas related to science. It has also allowed governments to control populations through the use of those beliefs. It has also fostered artificial divisions between different cultures, eventualy leading to wars. Are these means justifiable ? and are the followers really giving our world a greater good?
I don't think we need God anymore to know what is good or bad. I think people are capable to figure things out on their own.
People allowed to think for themselves are able to think more clearly about tolerance towards others, compassion, and the common good more than religious people who are only taught to follow without questioning. The only reason why we haven't been able to "figure it out" is because we keep on hammering the issue of god through religion over and over and over and over.... Religion is present in every sphere and it makes it difficult for those who want to talk about god-less morality, as they are shunned as if it was something impossible. What do you think of a god-less morality?
Who said to tell the truth is the greater good? You're assuming that telling the truth always results in the greater good huh? I bet you can think of 1 billion ways in which a lie can work better.
Again, I am not saying God is a lie. I am first trying to state whether or not belief in God for the masses is better than lack of belief... and then whether that belief should be promoted.
You're now bringing religion into the argument. It's kind of annoying when people do that when it completely misses the point. But just for the sake of it... let me destroy it.
it has given way to horrible things through fanatism
The key word in this is FANATISM. NOT RELIGION. A fanatic in ANYTHING will always result in extreme actions. Take PETA for example. They are not religious, but they can definately take a lot of shi far.
It has also allowed governments to control populations through the use of those beliefs.
Governments will always control populations. That is what they do. If it's not religion they're using, it will be something else. The GOVERNMENT is RESPONSIBLE for USING RELIGION, NOT RELIGION ITSELF!
It has also fostered artificial divisions between different cultures, eventualy leading to wars.
Whether you like it or not, people are ALWAYS GOING TO HAVE DIFFERENCES. These differences are ALWAYS GOING TO BE USED by PEOPLE OF POWER for THEIR OWN OBJECTIVES.
Do you get the picture? Religion should not be taking the blame.
I don't think we need God anymore to know what is good or bad. I think people are capable to figure things out on their own.
Well atleast you've answered the question. However it's not really an argument.
The point I've CONSISTENTLY made is that people are NOT able to figure out things on their own. That is why we have laws and rules. My point is that God is better at this than any human alive.
Well first, since you are the one talking about a greater good, it would be nice to start with a definition or examples of a greater good. In my conception of a greater good I am assuming this means to uphold certain values, such as truthfulness, and thus I put this as an example. Sorry if that was not clear, perhaps you can clarify, what the greater good is and how we can identify what it is.
Also, when you say that we shouldn't bring religion into the debate you must first explain why on your introduction to the debate you have us imagine that we are creating a religion.
We should first agree on whether or not religion is an obligatory vehicle for a belief in God. It seems to me that in your argument followers of a god want to find ways to please this god, and thus will be compelled to follow rules. People can either then follow established religions or create personal "guidelines" and "rules" of their own, and this becomes their religion. What benefit can there be to society where people are creating their own guidelines to follow based on a subjective understanding of a God? Some people may say my god requires me to dance naked in the middle of the street and then... what is the benefit to society?
Either way, as you say, without bringing religion into the question (or pretending to create a religion), there are many people out there, agnostics for example, who do believe in a creator but not necessarily some creator who wants anything from them... a god that is more of a passive uninvolved observer, than a ruler. These people thus, have no need to "please" him or follow "his" rules. And it doesnt mean that they people are lawless savages. The ability to understand what is good and bad for society, as I have mentioned before, has nothing to do with the belief in having a god to please or fear. A lot of people claim to believe in the possibility of a god, and yet not be religious, since the god they contemplate is one who doesn't provide systematized rules. The systematized rules that you mention, come from religion, NOT a belief in god.
May I ask you why you believe that people are not able to figure things out on their own?
You say that religion should not take the blame for a lot of the ills in society, but look how far religion has come and yet it doesn't seem we are learning how to get along. Maybe it is time to let people figure things out, and see what happens instead of getting stuck in the idea that people need some mythical being to tell them what to do.
Thank you for this post. I've been waiting for something like this. :D
perhaps you can clarify, what the greater good is and how we can identify what it is.
Let's put it like this.
A mother taking her kid for a walk. The kid keeps falling over and cries until the mother picks the kid up and lets her continue to walk. The mother and child are both happy and everytime the child falls, the mother picks the child up.
A mother taking her kid for a walk. The kid keeps falling over and cries, but the mother does not pick the kid up. Its cold and unloving, but the mother will not help. Everytime the child falls, the mother only watches.
The first mother's child never learns to pick itself up and one day on its own, when it fell, it never got back up. The second child however had learnt how to get back up and on its own was able to continue in life.
The second one is the greater good. The mother may seem insensitive and harsh at first, but in the long run, the outcome led to the child's survival. This may seem like an obvious and maybe even biased example, but that is what I mean by the greater good.
explain why on your introduction to the debate you have us imagine that we are creating a religion.
Read it. It said look at it from this point of view. I haven't brought religion, its values, its history or its rules or stories. Just one of God's roles.
What benefit can there be to society where people are creating their own guidelines to follow based on a subjective understanding of a God?
Let me name you 5 prophets. Krishna, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammed.
These people are not creating their own guidelines, but are taking God's Word. Not their understanding, but word for word, God's Words. Over time however Jesus's words have been distorted (as an example) which is not God or Jesus's fault but those who have distorted their word. They are the true prophets. There are several others, but you wouldn't have heard of them. Elron Hubbard is not a prophet, so his followers DO believe in crap and are NOT a benefit to society. But realistically, all religions all in all follow similar rules and these similar rules have nothing stupid.
The systematized rules that you mention, come from religion, NOT a belief in god.
Ok good point. Especially with the Agnostic part. However earlier I've explained earlier that the systematized rules come from God. But we're not here to talk about the differences in those rules. Just that God HAS given Rules to us. Let's not argue about which one is correct.. that is for a different debate. These rules are for us to follow for the good of mankind. How do we know it's for the good of mankind? Because God gave it to us. God, who is all knowing, all powerful etc. THAT is why we know it is right and if we followed them, we would be living in paradise.
IMO agnostics are just confused. They aren't sure on what God wants etc. I'll come to this later. (Remind me)...
May I ask you why you believe that people are not able to figure things out on their own?
If people were able to figure things out on their own, we wouldn't have any rules etc. The reason we have the law is to guide people. The MAJORITY. How many people out there CAN actually run the country, make all the perfect laws etc? Only God's word is right, because God is perfect only He can make the correct decision.
You say that religion should not take the blame for a lot of the ills in society, but look how far religion has come and yet it doesn't seem we are learning how to get along. Maybe it is time to let people figure things out, and see what happens instead of getting stuck in the idea that people need some mythical being to tell them what to do.
Again it is not religion which is in the wrong. Religion does say not to kill, drink etc. yet that is what you're saying is wrong. It's not religion that caused crusades. It was religion that was USED. Most wars etc. aren't fought for over religion, but merely use religion as an excuse to get people drawn into it.
Maybe it is time to let people figure things out, and see what happens instead of getting stuck in the idea that people need some mythical being to tell them what to do.
This is my problem. I have seen all around me what has happened due to the lack of religion. You tell me the problems in todays societies and then tell me is that due to the lack of religion or because of religion. Examples? - Underage sex, alcohol, tobacco, drugs, rape, murder, violence, greed, lust, intoxicants, envy etc. What is it that religion says about those issues?
Not their understanding, but word for word, God's Words
1. I just wonder how it is that some people have a direct line to "know" what god wants and what god says. there is no reason to see Buddha , Jesus or Muhammad as anything more than just very intelligent guys who had a burden in their hearts to guide people into a right moral pathway. Anyone with common sense and enough passion, and charisma can do this. Ghandi did not claim to be speaking god's words. he did claim to be inspired by the words of said prophets but by viewing their words as what he called "pure thoughts". why do you have to bring a "god" into the picture? morality has no need for god.
2. the words of the prophets you cite have value, but i feel that because they claim to be god-sent, their words become meaningless. people then have to choose who to believe... was jesus the son of god? or was he just a prophet? ... then religion becomes more than just about morality but about being "right" with some "god". does the mother of your example have to tell the kid that she is letting him fall because god told her to? why cant she just explain the logic behind it? it is enough.... we know that we shouldnt kill because it is common sense! not because we have to believe in someone who tells us that god talked to them last night.
Since you do not want to use religion, then explain how the idea of god, outside of religious norms, is tied to morality. it seems that more than defending the need for having a creator/god, you are defending the need for organized religion. God could be viewed as something more sublime than an organized set of rules written down by some privileged men who had some sort of direct phone line to the all-mighty....
in my opinion morality need not to be tied to god.
your argument is very confusing. are you defending religion, or god, or morality as means for the greater good? ... it seems to me that you believe that religions are legitimate creations of a god. if this is the case, this will be my last comment to you as there are too many contradictions in religions, in their norms, to even begin to accept that a higher being would have given them to us for our "guidance". if there was a higher being he probably has nothing to do with religions...
and i repeat... morality does not need to be tied to a god. there are lot of ways to be educated into the "right" way of behaving that do not require having someone telling you that you will go to hell if you don't obey.
1. These prophets MAY just be intelligent people as you said. But they have ALL claimed to be related to God in some way. If they ARE followers of God, then great. If they're NOT, then why have they 'used' God? THAT was my original argument.. the reasons for having God. (I've been completely sidetracked).
2. The reason I do not want to bring in religion is for the reasons you've stated. There are several different religions all doing different things and as soon as we start discussing God's word as interpretted by these religions, we'll be arguing about religions and not God.
The mother does not explain to the child because the child will not understand, it will just continue to cry and beg. In the same way we do not understand God's word, but in both circumstances the child and us people will benefit if we follow God's/mother.
we know that we shouldnt kill because it is common sense
Someone rapes a child.. should he be killed?
You go to war, should you kill?
You loose your temper, should you kill?
Someone is trying to kill you, should you kill?
You've had enough of life, should you kill yourself?
You're in a vegetative state, should you be killed?
God will tell us the right answer no matter what. However people have different opinions on those questions and both will argue their side. Who's right and who's wrong. Nobody on earth truly knows the impact of the decision they've made. This goes to your education point too. You're telling me all the finest, most educated people on the planet make the choices? in terms of ethics, religion etc?
I honestly think that the answer is a simple lack of education. Whereas before people had to be threatened with floods and the wrath of a god to compel them to change their ways, now that we have more understanding about the world, we are able to find logical conclusions as to how we should act in certain situations. we are now able to think more critically about issues because we have more knowledge.
Regarding the questions you post on the thou shalt not kill example, using the concept of god inhibits our critical thinking about how to solve such situations. The "word of god" is usually not enough to address such issues about euthanasia, abortion in case of rape, killing in war, or self defense. I seriously doubt that god will tell us the right answer no matter what. Whereas we can be allowed to arrive at logical conclusions about the issues of killing on a case to case basis, I dont think that we can know god's answers about these issues based on things that were written hundreds of years ago. Unless, again, you can prove that you have a direct line to god and that he is telling you what to do. This would be very subjective and you would have a hard time applying it to all of society.
There was a case in Nicaragua a couple of years ago, where an 11 year old girl was raped, and because she had reached puberty, she got pregnant. In Nicaragua, people believe that the bible is the word of god. Churches of different denominations interpret this word for the people. However, the god had not mentioned anything about what to do in this situation... no mention of abortion. So churches, who claimed to know what god was saying, launched a fierce campaign against the abortion of the child... based on the fact that if the bible (the word of god) said thou shalt not kill then this applies in any situation and we shouldn't think critically about each issue and respond to it accordingly.
The girl was 11 years old and incapable of taking care of the baby. The family of the girl lost the support of the community because they wanted the daughter to abort. The girl did not even understand what was going on. .... Anyway, just an example of how claiming that god says something can not be for the greater good. If the girl asks why she shouldn't be allowed to abort the answer will be because god says so. This kind of answer in itself is detrimental to the advancement of our own development of ethics and morality.
I don't claim that educated people make good choices all the time, only that when we have more knowledge about situations, our choice will be more informed and this expands the possibility that it will be a better choice than an uninformed one. If we become more informed then we will solve the problem of just being like children who do not understand and need to follow blindly . This may have been the case in times when people thought that the world stood on pilars, but now we don't need more myths, we need more education so we can think critically about the impact of our desicions.
Your example is hard to answer as I do not know all the ins and outs. BUT if we're going to take the thou shalt not kill for it then yes, she shouldn't have an abortion. It may not be the right thing to do, but it is the right thing to do. It's like that Jehovah who died because she wouldn't take a blood transfusion.
I think the basis of your argument is that God's word cannot be applied to modern day society and in a way you're right, because the world is moving so fast these days that every decade shows more change than it used to a few hundred years ago and that half the things today aren't even mentioned in the past i.e. abortion, cloning etc. However I would say that it's only people's mentality that is different to the past. We tend to think we know the answers, or questions and that we're a lot smarter than we used to be. In some ways we are, and in some ways we're not, some things are better and some things are worse but I think in MOST aspects these 'rules' are still as applicable as the past. Give me a few examples of todays problems which you think cannot be solved through religion and I'll try and explain as best I can as to how religion can be applied to it.
The basis of my argument is that God's word (whatever religion it is you are talking about) impedes our ability to reason about the consequences and impacts of our choices/actions. Any formalized set of rules does this when people are told to follow without questioning because something is supposed to be "good". Cases come up over and over again in everyday life, not just in difficult cases like abortion, euthanasia, cloning, where we confront the fact that reality is NOT black and white. But god's word and formalized rules want to simplify reality for us and this is where they fail. You should watch this ted talk about the ability to solve problems v.s. the ability to follow rules.
Claiming to "know the answer" is the characteristic of zealous religious people, who believe that a rule given by god is THE only answer. The scientific reasoning is precisely to question those things that may seem as "absolutes".
Regarding knowledge or education it would be absurd to say that we now know less things about the world than we did in the past. So, in the past - in the midst of more ignorance, it made sense to believe that if you don't worship a certain way god will get angry and stop the rain and your crops will die; but now, such a simple minded reason behind the need to behave well would not be accepted as we know more about how the world works. In this sense, we have more information needed to make decisions.
I don't think it is necessary to think about difficult or modern day examples (cloning, abortion, euthanasia) and figure out how to apply religion to it. In every day decisions we are always forced to "bend" the words in the book because they can't provide answers. Then people argue that it is their own "personal" relationship to god what matters -- it would seem as if everyone has a different conception of God anyway, these words are then subjective and left to interpretation. No one is adhering to the words strictly because the words are too narrow. The world is not black and white.
Teaching ethics and moral behavior requires a lot more than making people behave like sheep.
I agree with this guy 100% and he's right with some of the declines in modern society. But he said himself; we need some rules, just not too many and use practical wisdom to make the right choices. I guess we can apply that to some of the scenarios we have. My bad if I've made it seem like everything is black and white (i guess I might've) but it was only to keep the debates as simple as possible.
One thing you're assuming is that people are smarter now than they used to be. There's no way of knowing and in many cases this is true, especially when you look at western civilisations, however when you look to the east, we could say they're just as bright as we are, from the egyptians and greeks, to indians and chinese to aztec and mayan (very little knowledge on them btw). Not only did they have numerous powerful and compelling minds, but they also based their reasoning around God and religion. However religions were completely different in those days compared to the religions these days and so to take my argument one step further it is that belief in non-Abrahimic Gods are for the greater good.
I think again, to dispute the assumption that im saying people now are smarter than before is wrong. Im saying people now have more information than before, and more information leads to better choices. Of course egyptian, mayan, and chinese civilizations developed at an amazing rate and with surprising quality for our standards. But the eqyptians were also burying their dead in huge tombs (the pyiramids) and along with exhorbitant amounts of gold, why? because their belief in gods entailed a belief in an afterlife. I think they could have spent their resources and time building other structures that would have helped their community , rather than tombs. (though now we admire them just for cultural value). So it is these kind of behavior that I argue stems from a lack of knowledge about the world and how it works. However it doesn't mean we are "smarter" now. Since there are religious believers who continue behaving in the same supersticious ways... When they get sick they pray instead of going to the doctor, etc. But these behavior now should be inexcusable because now we have more knowledge about the world, so it is more like a choice. Back in the time of the Mayans, it may be more acceptable for them to come up with rituals to call for the rain, since they dont have the scientific knowledge about what makes rain fall.
But now, when people engage in the same kind of things, it just makes no sense at all because there is more knowledge out there about how things really work.
As far as morality goes, I actually think that something like the hamurabi code where the crime was punished in direct retribution, was quite innovative and logical and we could benefit from it. If you steal, we will cut off your hand. End of story. No need for god to induce people to act morally. ;) Just a good execution of the law. Of course this is not the ideal... and again, things are never just "black and white", so in the end it may not work in our day. The ideal would be for us to think critically about our actions. To have an awareness about the common good. We dont need an image of "god" in this, just as we dont need a hamurabi code. We need something more complex.... a reform in the educational system for example...
Belief in non-abrahamic gods for the greater good. hmmm. that makes this more interesting, but still based on my argument above, you can deduce that the image of god is unnecessary.
We all have an understanding of god that is different from each other. And there is no way of proving which god is right. Groups of people, cults, have come up with new "gods" and then followers are so blind that they end up committing crazy things in the name of these gods. Think mass suicides. This is the problem with the concept of "god"...any god, impedes rational thinking.
Mass suicides is a completely modern and retarded thing for a VERY minor percentage of the population.. that REALLY shouldn't be used as an example specially when it's with the brainwashed... NO CULTS SHOULD!! GRR!!
The followers of non-abrahimic religions cannot be expected to know everything scientifically just as we don't know everything scientifically. You're right, their rituals weren't 'scientifically' correct but not everything we do know is 'good' either. This whole global warming fiasco is something we're all contributing to everyday and don't you think that's a whole lot worse than a few 'stupid dances' to make it rain? Why is it that we continue to do all the things damaging the environment even when we KNOW it's damaging the environment? We're much more informed, yet we're doing bad right? If we are much better without God and are able to make better decisions why is it that we seem to disagree more and more?
It's all about mentality. Back then, things were a lot more black and white and todays society has created more and more colours, not just because of more information, butit's peoples inabilities to make the right decisions. That is because there isn't really a basis to say whether or not what they want is right or wrong because as you said it's up to people to make the right choice and less and less people are making the right choices.
You talked about how Egyptians could've spent their resources better... We're constantly wasting resources, not just on pointless research, but on things which will probably be harmful 20years down the line. Cigarettes, Alcohol, Fast Food, Petrol, CFC's, Waste etc. etc. All societies have their negatives, but I would prefer to dance for rain or bury people in tombs or pray for life than accept sodomy, sell my soul for money, have no respect for myself...
You are really off topic and nothing in your argument is aimed at supporting your belief that society is better off believing in a "god" than without.
It is already evident to me that you believe that the god that would favor society is only the abrahamic god, is this correct? I gather this from your refutal from my use of mass suicides and cult-like belief as examples.
I really dont see why they shouldn't be used as examples in an argument about god - supposing you are just talking about any conceptions of god - . I first argued that it is not for the greater good, because there is the possibility to come up with a lot of conceptions about what god is, how to follow him, how to please him. An example of this are cults. The conceptions range from crazy to crazier. And first we would have to find a way to prove that one conception is the correct one. However you seem to believe that the abrahamic god is the correct one. how can you prove that? Heaven's gate followers had a different conception and they died for it, their beliefs were passionate and convinced. They would have argued for their own view as passionately as someone who wants to believe that the abrahamic god is real and necessary for society.
so the first problem is how to find a god that is for the greater good? religion is just as subjective as any opinion in this world.
facts on the other hand, are not subjective. if people are given access to facts about situations, it is easier to make better decisions about right and wrong. if we knew the facts about the existence of a soul or not, we would know when consciousness actually begins, and this would help us in deciding whether or not abortion is right, or from when could it be right. does that makes sense? we kill cells every day and we dont feel like murderers. but because right now we do not know yet how to define "life", we continue with this myth of "god created life by breathing his spirit into us" and then we find this answer more satisfactory than the incomplete scientific search for life... up to now i think it is safer to say, "i dont know" than to argue that some god has answers.
All societies have their negatives, but I would prefer to dance for rain or bury people in tombs or pray for life than accept sodomy, sell my soul for money, have no respect for myself...
why is sodomy wrong? because god told you it is wrong? well... someone elses's god may not have told them it is wrong. how do you prove your god is right?
scientifically... why is sodomy wrong if both parties consent to it?
People are unable to make the right decisions because they want to base everything on their own idea of how to please their own god. We disagree more and more because religion claims to be absolute about morality, and it doesn't allow for discussion. Instead of saying "i dont know" god following people claim to have the answer and thus, there is no opportunity to really agree on anything... at least not with god followers.
How can you argue against someone's god that exists only in their head?
im glad we don't have to dance for rain and that we can just dance for fun, not to please some gods. :p
Lol. I think either you completely misunderstood my post or I wrote it very badly. I'm against the abrahimic Gods. The thing about those mass suicidic cults is that the same has been done for aliens, not just God. It's complete brainwashing that is a relatively new phenomenon that has only affected lets say 2000 people? Within the last 30 years? My point is that it is so irrelevant and anomolous with humankind's history, especially when it comes to religion, it should not hold any strength and if it does, it shows that religion needs to be in place to stop people from doing that... (as they did it on scientific reasoning)
Facts are facts, but they can be used subjectively. The thing about saying we need to know about everything before making a decision is impossible and tbh says that as people we can't make a decision. ANY decision we make, we will never know the impact of it, not only is it because we can't see into the future that would have been, but also we can't see everybody it might've affected.
I personally believe sodomy is wrong. And it's not science if both parties consent to it. If that is the mentality, then when the time comes IF I WANT, then I SHOULD be able to be part lion, part tiger, and have sexual intercourse with baboons. It means if a girl of 12 consents to a 90 year old, it's ok. Don't act like it won't happen, because slowly everything is becoming legal. Even drugs are becoming legal. There's no science to everything... Now I'm not against oral sex... but anything more than that is imo not right. Religious people to do not do things just to please God, but because they also think it's the right way of living.
Regarding the cults, the reason why I find them relevant is because followers of the abrahamic religions dismiss them as being completely "crazy" when in my opinion, the abrahamic religions in themselves are as deranged as cults. So I find them relevant because it shows what happens when people try to say that they have access to "god" or can possibly know his/her mind. There are people out there who still believe in talking snakes...
I admit your point in saying we can never know "everything", but you must admit that when you make a desicion, even as simple as buying a new computer, you do research and try to find out as much as you can so that you will be better equipped for making a decision. It's as simple as that... we become more educated so we can make better decisions.
Which leads to the final point... religious people do not do things just to please god, but because they also think it's the right way of living. I think we are all entitled to the same freedom religious people want of choosing the best way of living if this behavior is not going to harm anyone else. I've never come across any scientific evidence as to why sodomy is bad for you. Therefore, I have no basis for saying it is "bad". Why is it bad? If you point out something in science, then you will agree that we need education, scientific facts, to help us make desicions that are not bad for us. But if you just "think" it is bad for no reason at all... then it makes no sense.
I dont understand your argument about being part lion part tiger.
A girl of 12 consenting to sex with a 90 year old... i think if we continue with this god bullshit, children CAN be brainwashed into doing things without questioning them. Have you watched the videos about Jesus Camp? It is very close to the same brainwashing that cult leaders do... and you know what makes it so wrong? that it is targetted at children, who are suceptible . Just as a girl of 12 , we both would agree, has not reached the age of consent to have sex; the children from jesus camp also have not reached the age of consent to accept or reject ideas independently. why? because they have not been exposed to more information about the world. how can god be for the greater good when it inhibits our ability to decide for ourselves?
About drugs. I believe they are bad because Ive read enough about their effects on the body. Thus I can say they are bad, there is evidence. But saying things are bad just because of some intuition about god, is just plain ignorance.
Even though I'm against abrahimic religions, I still respect them and find it insulting that they're thought to be as deranged as cults.
Obviously you should do the same when choosing your religion. I haven't really got a problem with athiests except when they think they're intellectually superior because they're athiest. They think that only ignorant and stupid people believe in God, and smart person knows that holds no basis, but it's different to say 'there is no God' than saying 'I do not believe in God'. Same goes to theists who say 'there is God' rather than saying 'I believe in God'.
Thing about being more educated, it doesn't mean more common sense, which in that video you showed yourself, people are loosing these days. I would say in general the way people are educated, raised these days, they don't have much common sense. That I would say is more important than any education in the world.
My argument about the extra inter-species breeding, part lion shit is to do with today's mentality of 'if he wants to, then he should' or 'if it doesn't hurt anybody...' etc. It's a downward spiral that will only lead further and further from the strict 'man and woman have sex for kids'. A bit of leeway is ok. But in todays society... homosexuals? transvestites? transexuals? zoophilia? necrophilia? Where does it stop?? There isn't a limit because we're loosing morals to 'science' or i would say 'freedom'. Right now, zoophilia might be looked down upon, but give it a few years and it will be today's transexuality. Understand that freedom isn't always a good thing. It comes with it's negatives.
You're right about that Jesus camp thing. That is brainwashing and I think a lot of Christians themselves would be against it, but it is not God who inhibits the ability to decide for yourselves, but he definately gives the best path and it is for us to decide whether or not to take it, but in the end karma always comes back around. If you have lived a good life (whether or not you believe in God) you will be rewarded and if you have lived a bad life (whether or not you believe in God) you will be punished.
It's not ignorance if you agree with God or to have faith in God's word. Take me for example. I know that we would live in a much better world without alcohol, yet I drink it myself. People argue against drinking it. At best people say it should be drunk responsibly. I personally agree with that, yet in my religion you shouldn't drink any. I've had many bad experiences with alcohol.. I'm pretty sure everybody who has drunk it has. Now, would you be better off without alcohol or with it? I SAY without it, yet ACT with it. It's not just God said so... but He is right? Same with smoking (except I don't really smoke).
I have the same respect for abrahamic religions as I do for cults. Why? I put them on the same level as I think that people's opinions should be respected. And to me, religion, whether cult-ish or not, is nothing more than an opinion of how the world works or how it should work.
I agree with what you say about common sense. and in that video you clearly saw how common sense is being lost.
About your fear of loosing morals to "freedom" which comes from a scientific understanding, I ask you... what is so bad about that? Why do you see it as some dooming scenario? So what if your neighbor likes to fuck a dog? As long as we can prove that nor him or the dog are getting diseases, how is this making the world BAD? what are the negatives of that ? .... seriously.... I think all the negatives you see come from a "desirable" image of the world that is imposed by religion.... For me, a desirable world comes from people respecting other people's view, not looking down upon them because they have different preferences, and where people are free to do what they want as long as they dont harm each other. Isn't that the tenet of most religions anyway? love thy neighbor ?
When I agree that alcohol is bad, Im not agreeing with god's word, Im agreeing with medical evidence about what it does to the body... And I agree that a world without alcohol is better, but as long as you are inflicting the harm only upon yourself, I have nothing to complain about.
So tell me, why do you see zoophilia as negative? what is so bad about that? ... (use it as an example of the downward spiral in the world) I think you will not be able to prove it, without using your own subjective "morality". All I m saying is that we need to think criticaly about where our morals come from and religion is not a good source for moral standards.
Below is a video of the source for "good doing" for religious people: the fear of going to hell. How can such a story be a source for "morality"? Good christians and atheist alike, do not need such religious stories to do good.
A religion cannot be cultish.. because they're both different things.
The fact that you argued for zoophilia shows that this has gone beyond point. You're telling me that I can go up to somebody and kill them. He's dead so I don't hear him complaining... so it is ok. Kids should be slitting their own risks. Even even they cause permanant damage, it's ok because they're only doing it to themslves. We should take drugs, because we're doing it ourselves. I'm glad you think that way.
By saying alcohol is bad you ARE agreeing with 'God's word'. God says 'alcohol is bad', you say 'Yes, it is bad'... you are agreeing with God. Maybe for different reasons... but the conclusion is the same.
I just want to know now if you are against zoophilia, yes or no. If you are not against it for the reasons that people should be able to do what they want with themselves... then I really do not want to continue debating.
The reasons we should give for guiding our morality should have a real foundation. You didnt answer WHY you are against zoophilia, why it is harmful to engage in such behavior... is it because god's word should be followed blindly? just "because"?
I'm against following for the sake of following, and against giving people rules without proof of why those rules are good for them.
I am not an advocate of zoophilia. But I accept that I have no reason, other than my personal OPINION that it is disgusting, to make a moral judgement and condemn it as "wrong". So, again, if you say it is wrong... what is the reason behind it?? please convince me with something other than "god says so".
Ahh ok. When it comes to sexual acts.. its a lot harder to argue with because you can't really explain why it's bad. Same as homosexuality.. it's hard to explain why it's bad. All I know in my heart is that it's wrong. You're asking me why... I don't know why.. I do know that it's wrong though.. and it goes hand in hand with this 'downward spiral' in todays society. 1 thing though, I don't do anything because God says so. I agree with Him... not follow Him blindly.
Thing about right and wrong - There is no proof to it. That is one thing I can garauntee you 100%. It's purely opinion or one's own thoughts. Science has no morals. Nor has facts. Morals, right and wrong does not go hand in hand with numbers, statistics and tests. Morality is outside of explanations through science. Sometimes you do things for the sake of doing. You don't question everything. Some things you can question... and still do it, some things you question and don't do it, but questioning everything is just as bad as not questioning everything.
thing about right and wrong- there is no proof to it
thats where we differ. religious people base their morality on a "gut feeling they cant explain". while non-religious people base their morality on actual evidence on whether something is harmful to myself or to my neighbor. It is quite a simple way to find out what is right or wrong without the need for a direct phone line to god. the knowledge of right or wrong does not require god. you say that you agree with god when you acknowledge that alcoholism is bad for you. i say that actually "god" agrees with you and science. there is no need for god to tell you alcohol is wrong. you know it is a harmful substance to your body. but thats it... end of story.
this "downward spiral" is just a spiral in the minds of religious people who see their morals (that have no actual basis) become eroded. i see nothing wrong with this. as long as the morality we are acquiring is one infused with tolerance and love for ourselves and our neighbor.
Naaah... this downward spiral has nothing to do with religion imo. It's through what I've seen, done, heard of etc. that I believe this, whether religion was there or not. I think religion plays a big factor in it, but it's not a religious thing for me.
Science has no morals. Moral is based on judgment, opinion etc. It's not a religious thing either, but right and wrong is not science. Science is simply an explanation of things.
You commit suicide
Science says you are dead. Morals say it's wrong (or in certain culture it's right).
Science can't judge whether dying is good or bad. It can only state what happens. Morals are judgments.
It's kind of silly to say religious people do not base their morality on evidence..lol. You hear them all the time arguing, debating continuously using evidence to prove their righteousness. Both sides rely on evidence... and if you think otherwise, you're deluding yourself.
i see many references to people believing in god committing horrible atrocities - crusades, burning witches, suicide bombings, 9/11, and tons more which i would think would point to no - and i don't see the overwhelming good that supposedly follows religion. there is assertion by some that Christians give more to charity without any source but even if that were the case it would appear that the overall effect of belief has still been more negative than positive to me.
No, it's not for the greater good. I think that whether people worship an idle or no they are going to act in such a way as they're nature and experience determined.
Religion is simply something used as kind of a scapegoat. As an example; if the commandments were handed down in the way the old testament proclaims they were, amidst all kinds of shenanigans, I firmly believe the addition of a god would not have been a necessity, that even they as wild as the book claims them to be, would have wrapped their heads around acting in such a way was self-destructive, without the introduction of some god. (For the record, most likely none of that happened, and it is simply a variation on similar stories found from the older version, the Egyptian Book of the Dead, but it serves as an example)
It would seem on the surface to many atheists then, that religion at worse is simply a no-lose, no-gain thing people do.
I disagree. I think while many aspects of religion, indeed most, encourage good behaviour,
I believe taking the easy-out of describing to the religious masses that the reason this optimal behaviour is desirable as "uh, uh, because god said so" encourages stupidity and a lack of reflection,
which while in many cases leads to a group of people who act properly in society,
at the same time makes it really easy to get them to do ridiculous things like blow up buildings in the name of allah, or crusade against the middle east in the name of god.
Thinking people do not act in such a way. I think one who doesn't believe in a god is more likely thinking about these kinds of moral dilemmas instead of simply following some prophet's imagined wishes.
The unspoken premise of your argument with which I would disagree is that all religions promote moral absolutism. That's really more a characteristic of the Abrahamic faiths (Judaism-Christianity-Islam). Perhaps Confucianism might fall closer to the moral absolutist end of the spectrum (I'm definitely not an expert on Confucianism, so someone more schooled in Confucianist thought could disagree with that classification).
But Buddhism, Taoism, at least some sects of Hinduism, and a good many of the neopagan religions -- just to name a few as a contrast -- espouse situational ethics, not moral absolutism. These don't break down nearly so neatly into "because our God said so" moral behaviors, because that's not how their religious ethic works; the religious morality is based more on principles than precepts. So instead of the Ten Commandments, which are a list of absolute no-nos, you've got things like the Eightfold Path or the Wiccan Rede, which are broad statements of ethical precepts both clear enough and flexible enough to be applied situationally. Those don't easily lend themselves to moral justifications for doing ridiculous things like waging religious wars, because the moral lens is not "hey, those neighboring heathens over there are in violation of Commandment One and we should wipe 'em out as offensive in the eyes of our god," but is rather something like "what kind of relationship with my neighbors comports with speaking truth, acting in peace, and refraining from destructive conduct" (e.g., Buddhism) or "do I even need to care what my neighbor believes and if so, what non-aggressive response can I make that would not presume to assert moral authority over someone else" (e.g., Taoism).
Interestingly . . . one could argue from this basis that the problem is monotheism. Religions with one god seem to go in for moral absolutism with a lot more frequency than religions with no gods or religions with a bunch of gods. So viewed in that way, the answer to the question "is belief in God (singular) for the greater good" would very possibly be "no", but would also be distinct from the question of whether non-monotheistic religious belief is for the "greater good."
I wouldn't really say it's monotheism, but definately the religions that are strongly monotheist. However, I do not blame 'monotheism' for it, it's more of the agression these religions (abrahimic) have. Your thoughts on eastern religions are interesting and I'm guessing you're saying they are based on philosophy?
That's a valid point about the Abrahamic faiths, and again perhaps Confucianism, being comparitively "aggressive." I'd have to take a closer look at other monotheistic religions in antiquity (the cults of Mithras and Akhennaton were both big ones) to make a determination about whether moral absolutism seems to be a facet of monotheism generally or just of Judaism-Christianity-Islam.
I am not certain if I am saying that Eastern and other faiths are based more on "philosophy," just that their ethical structures are not necessarily a black-and-white list of "thou shalt not"s. They are frequently presented more as broad precepts to be applied situationally rather than as hard-as-fast rules about certain proscribed behaviors.
Well seeing as their cults I wouldn't really look into them too much. I did some research into them and they do seem completely different to Abrahimic faiths. I would certainly say that Eastern religions are based on philosophy with them being more interested into the understanding of one self in correspondance to the universe. Mythology, history, culture and philosophy I would say are basis of eastern religions also with the founder having lesser significance than abrahimic faiths.
A "cult" in the ancient world was simply a religion devoted to the worship of one deity or deities from a broader pantheon -- a religious practice or "veneration". "Cults" in the ancient world were more like the ordinary, run-of-the-mill religions of today; referring to an ancient cult doesn't really correspond to the modern-day usage of "cult" at all. I wouldn't dismiss the religions of antiquity so lightly.
You're asking two different questions here. One is whether belief in god -- which we can generically identify as "religion" -- has historically been beneficial for mankind and/or civilization. The other is whether we should promote "the idea of God," which begs the question of whose idea of what god.
Has religion been a beneficial force? Meh. It has its pros and cons. Religion does appear to be sort of hard-wired into the hominid psyche. We marvel at the inexplicable, we engage in metacognition (thinking about thinking) and other forms of cognitive abstraction, and we're socially organized around hierarchical moral norms. Religion is an old, old force, dating back to before homo sapiens was homo sapiens. (No, I am not suggesting that any specific religion is that old, just that religious behavior such as ritual disposal of the dead dates back to earlier hominids). So in some ways religion seems to be a functional extension of our creativity, our intelligence, our ability to think symbolically and representationally, and our cognitive process for contending with the unknown.
But has it been a good force? Meh. It's driven art and innovation, but also torture and warfare. Sometimes it pushes scientific development forwards (late-antiquity Persia); sometimes it holds it waaaaaay back (late-medieval Europe). As an organized phenomenon religion has really always been more a creature of politics than one of faith. Over the aeons it's produced some good developments in social welfare, and some bad developments in social welfare. One might say it's the nuclear power of cognition -- potentially useful, but also potentially very dangerous.
Should we "promote" it? Not as an end unto itself, I would think. I can't imagine what value "promoting" religion would have other than to enforce the status quo of a specific given religion. Promoting religion generically -- as in, "hey everybody, go out and pick one!" -- seems rather a useless exercise. Promoting faith-derived personal experience, not in a "read-this-book-go-to-church" way but in a "I had a profound experience that's really triggered some significant insight" way, might be worthwhile in terms of developing one's individual thinking . . . but I'm not sure that's what you're driving at, or sure that's what the effect would be, of attempts to "promote" religion as a phenomenon.
As far as promoting a specific religion goes . . . which one? Most big religions generate their own PR, but I betcha Dievturība or the Ordo Aurum Solis could use a good publicist.
Religion has always been a point of argument for human beings. Sometimes, even leading to war, such was the case with the Crusades. What is the point of arguing about something that we're not sure is even there? Sure it may be a strong belief, but why must you live your life by a two thousand year old book?
The Bible is outdated. It is two thousand years old and over a billion people live their life according to the standards set forth in said book. Books should always have more editions, especially for one that hasn't gone out of print for the last two millenia. It doesn't tackle issues like healthcare, the environment or a democracy. Even if it does, it barely goes into any detail.
What I'm trying to say, is that people should stop fighting over and discriminating each other according to what religion they are, but to instead, respect each other for out own, independent character, not by what outdated book they like to read.
I try not to, but I often find myself classifying people into two groups. One group who is up to the challenge of cultivating their own beliefs and another who are very strongly inclined to adopt a popular or safe profession of belief that minimizes challenges. I consider the latter group to be much much larger than the former.
Theism may indeed promote order but I am not convinced that tranquility and order necessarily entails "the greater good"
Theism, from what I can tell neuters healthy skepticism. If they believe that they have access to an entity worthy of complete and utter trust their critical thinking skills atrophy. I think a good measure of doubt is a necessary component of wisdom and wisdom is essential to the greater good. So my opinion is: No it is not.
So you're saying tranquility and order (also a good way life?) is NOT the greater good?
I don't agree that it neuters healthy skepticism and religious people have a good measure of doubt. People are always thinking twice about everything they do, that's normal, difference with theists is they follow their religion. Doesn't mean they don't doubt. Problem these days is TOO much doubt and TOO much skepticism.
So you're saying tranquility and order (also a good way life?) is NOT the greater good?
If you have large segments of the population in full submission to tyranny, You may have order and tranquility at the expense of dignity justice, liberrty etc.. this scenario would serve the few and ignore the greater good altogether
Hopefully that explains better for you what I was thinking when I typed: "I am not convinced that tranquility and order necessarily entails "the greater good"
People are always thinking twice about everything they do, that's normal
Yeah... Thoughtfulness and respectfulness are the norms.. LOL
Problem these days is TOO much doubt and TOO much skepticism.
We are polar opposites regarding this subject. However I prefer it framed in this atheistic manner. So I will start a debate entitled "Which causes more problems religiously, excessive trust or excessive doubt?"
I think we have different understandings of what a religious society leads to. I don't blame you but that's simply because you're basing your thoughts on history, but moreover history of certain religions as Christianity, Islam and (not so sure) Judaism. However what would you say to a Buddhist society? Or a Hindu society? Certain religions have been detrimental, but imo other religions, some extinct, some not, did not have the problems you've described. egyptians? Ancient chinese and indian? ancient greeks etc. etc. They were all deeply religious societies (correct me if I'm wrong) which did not have the same borders as you're describing (again correct me if I'm wrong).
I support the spirit of freedom of religion. People should be free to practice religion in their own way so long as they are not violating anyone's rights.
They were all deeply religious societies (correct me if I'm wrong) which did not have the same borders as you're describing
Since there is no scientific evidence to prove a "god's" existence, and most stories and ideas about "god" have been proven wrong over the course of history, it is safe to say that there more than likely is no "god," and if there is, he, she or it likely doesn't care about humanity. Therefore it is detrimental for societies to believe in "god" for 2 main reasons: 1: It gives people who "speak for god" absolute power and infallibility in the eyes of their followers, and 2: It causes people to react based on emotions as opposed to reason.
1. Those who believe that their leaders are under "god's" guidance and are therefore all powerful and infallible put themselves under the yoke of authoritarianism. Though authoritarianism can be achieved without belief in "god," religion is certainly a tool in the authoritarian arsenal as either a means of oppression, i.e: the Spanish Inquisition; or as a means of persecution, i.e: Soviet Russia/Nazi Germany. Erasing "god" from the minds of people allows them more freedom in their thoughts and actions. It should be up to the individual to decide what his or her personal moral boundaries and beliefs are. People should not be influenced by religion or "god" because they end up supporting what they are told to support as opposed to what they would support on their own.
2. Belief in "god" causes people to respond to difficult situations with emotion rather than logic, i.e: the Crusades/ fundamentalist Islamic terrorist organizations. Though not all conflicts stem from beliefs in "god," many do, and the world would be better off with fewer reasons for people to fight. Karl Marx said that religion is the opium of the people. It causes the individual to feel a certain way without taking into account his or her personal opinions. It gives people ideas for irrational plans in dealing with their problems as opposed to logical problem solving strategies. Islamic terrorism is a great example. Much of the animosity Muslim extremists feel towards the West is due to the West's support of Israel. They fight back with car bombs and suicide bombers, when peace talks would be much more effective in supporting their case.
This is a great argument, so I marked you up, even though some idiot decided to mark you down...
BUT the problem is that you're still putting MAN's mistakes as God's discredit. You're right that it is the belief in God that some of these things occur, but then again that can be applied to anything anybody strongly believes in. Take football in England... and how 'hooligans' go about it... the fights, friendships, groups etc. (You've seen Greenstreet right?) People fight, go extreme, argue etc. over DIFFERENCES, PERCEPTIONS, INTOLERANCE, IGNORANCE etc.
The thing about having no God and having people think for themselves is that each and everysingly person's mentality and moral coding will be different to their neighbour's and imo that will bring about more destruction than having a God even in today's world.
My point is that having God, without abusing 'Him', would create a better mentality for people than those who do not follow God.
I think you make a fine point in saying that uniting behind a common religion will bring about more peace than allowing divided opinions, and I also appreciate you referencing Green Street Hooligans. I thought that was a wonderful movie and you tied it into your argument nicely so I marked you up a point for it.
To clarify my argument, I understand that eliminating religious beliefs will not be the end-all solution to the world's problems, and that people will always fight and try to control one another, however I see religion as simply another tool or motivation to fight. I believe that eliminating religion from the list of things to fight over could only help.
To address what you said about uniting behind a common "god": I believe that it is natural for humans to have differences, and that society must find a way to embrace those differences instead of repressing them with religion (or other forms of absolute unity such as authoritarian government, etc.) It may sound nice to have everyone united in feeling and acting the same way, but it is simply not human nature to do so, and history shows that these sorts of feelings only breed more intolerance toward those who don't fall in line. The sort of logic you are arguing for is the same sort that Hitler would have used to explain himself. That society would be better if we all just felt the same way towards everything, and that we were all united behind a common government (or religion in this case). The point I'm trying to make is that people are different. Their moods and opinions are always changing, and the way to cope with this not by eliminating diversity, but finding a way to embrace it (i.e: democracy)
People will have differences, but what about religions that not only accept other people's beliefs or lack of them?
I do not think it's right to accept people for what they are... or SOME people anyway. When it comes to race, nationality, eye colour, hair colour, religions (not cults) etc. people should and do live side by side. Some issues are contreversal i.e. sexuality, cross-gender, physical enhancements etc. which I think should be eliminated.
I ain't not hitler dude, lol. I don't have a problem with differences and in touch with points made earlier the religions I am in favour of have always been very tolerant to certain issues, so wouldn't it be better for not just an extremely tolerant religion, but broad, flexible and continuously evolving religion?
I think you will be hard-pressed to find a religion that is as tolerant and flexible as you say. Religions are built around infallible "gods", and therefore must stick to whatever they say at their conception in order to maintain validity. Religions cant change without contradicting their previous statements of infallibility. Look at how hard the Catholic Church fought to stop Galileo's ideas about celestial bodies, and how hard modern Christian organizations are fighting to teach creationism and dispute evolution. If they changed, the would go against everything they were told in their bibles.
I didnt mean to offend you with my Hitler reference. I'm sure you're not a fascist or mass murderer, i just wanted to show where that argument can lead. My point is that change, and the ability to cope and embrace it, is almost always for the betterment of society. And since religion's nature is to claim infallibility, they deter change and consequent societal improvement by saying: "what I am saying now is the one and only truth in the world. It always has been and always will be because it is what God wants." This leaves no room for changes or improvements in ideology and leaves no room for those who believe in a separate code of infallibility. Religion is by nature rigid and stagnant in its policies, and it only helps breed intolerance and ignorance and therefore is far more detrimental to society than it is helpful.
:D You are looking at the POV of abrahimic religions. My example is Hinduism, Buddhism, Taosim and probably a lot more that have allowed freedom to worship whatever religion they please.
So if everyone gets to worship whatever religion feel like, doesn't that negate your point of uniting behind a common religion? What you are saying here basically agrees with what I said about people having freedom to believe whatever they want. If there is no common religion, then there is no single religion to unite behind and therefore no point to religion as a unifier or peacekeeping tool.
It's a common religion, not the only religion. Even if there wasn't a single dominant religion. If there were several thousand religions, if they could live side by side with only minor conflicts, if they had tolerance it would be ok. However that's only possible with these religions as abrahimic have a looong and thorough history of not being able to get along with those next to it.
It's the mentality of the religions that's most important. The abrahimic religions feel everybody has to convert to their beliefs... which is why it is dominant, because they followed that aggresively. The other religions respect other's and don't agressively convert others and don't feel it's their mission to convert, but more to respect and understand. If religions had that mentality.. then it would definately be a better world and half of these 'religion causes wars' bs ideas would go out of the window.
You have to call upon God just try sometime and pray to him and just be yourself have a conversation to with about your worries and ask him to make himself real to you and he will. God doesn't want to be where he is not welcome he doesn't want robots thats one of the reason why he gave us a freewill.
Ive tried to talk to "god," and he fails to make himself real to me in much the same way he fails to make himself real to the 4000 Africans who starve to death every day. When "god" shows to me that he can feed those starving people, or fix the economy, or do something that has a real impact besides making me feel better for a little bit, I'll start believing. Until then "god" can't do anymore for me than heroin can. I can feel euphoria for half an hour, but at the end of the day nothing has changed.
I hear you and understand all of those things you mentioned. It's a theological discussion on why there are so many bad things that happen in the world.
Belief in God does not dictate a good moral character and that is obvious by the wars we fight, the priests who molest children, the countless acts of violence carried out in God's name/title, people who profit from running religious organizations (i.e. televangelists) etc.
We're a nation that puts "In God we trust" on our currency. If that's not the most blatant contradiction I've ever seen regarding man's claimed allegiance to God...I don't know what is. "God", used to be many gods if you're brushed up on what we now call astrology and mythology. Today, the catch-all term, "God" and the Bible, are used to erase any memory of man's true history and origins so that we may be better controlled by one singular deity who doesn't even exist. I will gladly burn in hell if I'm wrong.
It's not just a matter of deterrents (i.e. policeman vs. boogie man). Most people seem not to understand that they are good to each other because that's the best way to survive! Or in the context of human society - have a chance of happiness. Without getting into a whole thing about how the media keeps you in a state of perpetual fear (much like the messiahs or priests of old and new) and why, or how a few rotten apples can spoil the whole batch if it seems that antisocial behavior can provide better results for an individual in the short term I just want to say - people are basically and statistically good. It's in our nature to be good. Just like it is to be scared, a fact that the media and religions rely upon with great effect to their bank balance. We need to make a society where there are less (ideally none) poor, uneducated, sick and in other ways unhappy people for no good reason. The question of deterrents, and which one is more effective will become moot. Until then belief in god is just holding us back.
For a proof of concept look at Sweden. It's much easier to get a perspective on things by looking at empirical findings then following your intuition - i.e. throwing around arguments with no real data, making doomsday forecasts and alike.
Believing in God is so Great! Here's just a little list of all the great things that humanity has achieved in "God's" name!
1. The Crusades: thousands upon thousands of good honest Christians stopped killing each other for a little while to kill thousands upon thousands of "evil" "savage" Muslims in several centuries of good, honest, and God blessed blood letting. Yay God!
2. Witch hunting: without witch hunting, how else would we have been able to put those overly independent, intelligent, or simply abnormal women in their places! And, here's the genius of it; it's win win! Either they're proved to be a witch and then we get to kill them, or they're proved not to be a witch, but they die anyways from the testing!
3. Hell: what better way to make little children behave than by terrorizing them with stories of being tortured for eternity in the fiery bowels of the abyss! Belief in God makes parenting a breeze! This also works for controlling mentally handicapped people!
4. Purchasing Redemption: everybody makes mistakes! Sometimes you just can't help murdering all those innocent children and then defiling their remains. But wait! Have no fear! You don't have to go to Hell! All you need to do is "Purchase your Redemption" from the Pope or any one of his representatives. Although, this option is no longer available in the present day, there's something even better! Not only can you get away with murder, they'll even pay you for it if you join the US Army, or any one of the private defense contractors currently serving in Iraq!
5. Defense against Science (a.k.a. the Devil's Art): From Galileo Galilei to Albert Einstein; from Nicholas Copernicus to Giordano Bruno, our belief in God has protected us against such VILE and DESPICABLE creatures also known as "scientists"! Through such holy means as putting them in prison, burning their books, torturing them to confession, or simply setting them on fire, our belief in God has allowed us to remain in pleasant, ignorant bliss, encouraging us to allow those who are our betters (aka chosen by God) to make our choices for us.
This is a cop out of the old question to whether god exists or not. If you want your history books forged and you ability to think for yourself stripped of you, I suggest moving to North Korea. Would believing in Santa Claus your whole life make you a better person, what a stupid proposition. Kids don't start stealing and killing when they find out Santa Claus isn't real. The only surprising part is a child can easily fathom Santa not existing, yet grown adults can't do the same with god. Imagine if a child demanded proof that Santa didn't exist, and claimed that it is better to just believe in him...no i bet you can't imagine such a stupid child...only adults seem to be able to defend such an idiotic concept.
Everything works the way it would if there was no god, therefore there's no reason to believe there is a god. Just like there's no reason to believe in Zeus or apollo....Etc Whether it is for the greater good (which it's not) is erroneus. Should people believe in Santa their whole lives, would it be for the greater good...who gives a shit, and no, I don't need a fake story to help me behave. We've spent long enough listening to these people, lets try and seek actual truth, rather than live in a fairy land.
I often hear religious people maintain that without God there would not be any reason to be moral - and that society would be chaotic as a consequence.
If that where true why is it that on average 95% of jailbirds consider themselves religious (most of the Christian) in America, and this percentage is higher than the percentage of religious people in lawful society
It seems to me quite the opposite, that on average religious people have a hard time being moral and following the common law (Offcourse any subgroup has their criminals though)
It's interesting that this question was asked, because if you look at many religions and their roles in society one could argue that many, or perhaps most of them were created with belief in god leading to the greater good; a necessary glue for society.
Fast-forward thousands of years later and we have Christians killing Muslims, Muslims killing Hindus, and so on. We have simple political issues (globalisation, abortion, sex education, homosexual rights, death penalty, cloning, stem cells, global warming, among many others) which are made insoluble because religious groups decide to make these simple issues into theological issues, dividing countries and communities needlessly all in the pursuit of political power and votes.
So while I can't claim to know what a world started on the premise of "No, for the greater good" would look like (since that isn't the case in our world) I can only imagine that it can't be worse that what "Yes, for the greater good" gave us.
i think that all religion is just a false sense of secruity for people who dont have enough self confidence or want to belong to a community also for when you die you dont just rot but you go to a place in the sky with all your friends and family. You dont.
Affirming with the truth is always going to be the best route. Sadly in our society, we have created some situations where the only "greater good" is to deceive ourselves or someone else.
I am not saying the truth says God does not exist. I'm saying that until it can be proven as the truth, I'm not going to accept it.
No, the belief in God for the greater good is just a belief that people use as a excuse to push and impede their beliefs on vulnerable people especially children as well as an excuse to act in ways they would deem unjust or wrong, such as Killing in the Name of God.