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What are the worlds starving families going to do with a fiat currency that has long since failed to represent the resources meant to establish its value?
Let the fat cats keep their money… the rest of us just need help in convincing each other that money is what makes us poor in the first place.
If they worked for it then that is their money. If a country is in such poverty then the rich can voluntarily donate funds to assist the country, but they have no obligation to do so.
Do you know that the first world countries take way more money from the third world countries than they give? The money that are donated to these countries is like a drop of water in the pacific ocean, compared to what they take.
Do you know that the first world countries actually take advantage of their own superiority to make money of the third world countries?
And to respond your first sentence ''If they worked for it'' - Personally I feel like that is a .. ridiculous, sorry my choice of words, to say, because no matter how hard you work, it is not worth the hundred thousands lives that are sacrifised each day.
Do you know that the first world countries take way more money from the third world countries than they give? The money that are donated to these countries is like a drop of water in the pacific ocean, compared to what they take.
Okay, but is it your money? If you didn't earn the money it isn't yours to spend. If I own a diamond business and go to Africa and start mining and make billions I get to decide what I want to do with those billions. Not you.
Do you know that the first world countries actually take advantage of their own superiority to make money of the third world countries?
Yes, I don't feel any different knowing it either. The rich have no obligation to give up there money that they earned. Forcing them to donate is coercion.
And to respond your first sentence ''If they worked for it'' - Personally I feel like that is a .. ridiculous, sorry my choice of words, to say, because no matter how hard you work, it is not worth the hundred thousands lives that are sacrificed each day.
So you wish to put value on humans? What makes a human being more valuable than a pen or a brick or a dog? On what basis will you determine human worth? If you also believe humans are all equal then equal in what regards? On what basis is this equality founded? So, what basis is this value founded? If everything is relative then your moral opinion on donating has no difference on my opinion.
Second, saying "they worked for it" is only fitting. If I want to be rich I must work for it and then if I want my descendants to be rich then I must work harder. You have no authority to tell me to donate money to causes I don't feel like donating to simply because you feel as if it's only moral to do so. Can I take your money and donate it to Google in hopes that they stay strong? Can I take your money and donate it to Starbucks in support of good coffee? No. It's impractical. You must voluntarily contribute to causes you wish to donate to or agree to pay amends on the basis of an established contract. Either that me taxation or mere personal payments. In the end a person should not be forced to donate to any cause unless they voluntarily wish to do so.
Also what about all the money that has already been donated? Why is it that my money hasn't fixed anything yet? I'm sure we can genetically modify vegetable and fruits to grow in the conditions in places of poverty so that people may cultivate and feed their people. How come you didn't bring this up? What good does a paper bill do in the eyes of a person whose currency is salt and goats?
Instead of demanding donations from the rich we should be researching ways to help those in poverty. Starting with basic meeds such as food and water, and then moving up the scale to things such as education and emotional needs. This is a much more effective method of dealing with this situation. Doesn't it seem futile to ask a rich man to donate when he himself barely wishes to pay taxes?
Okay, but is it your money? If you didn't earn the money it isn't yours to spend. If I own a diamond business and go to Africa and start mining and make billions I get to decide what I want to do with those billions. Not you.
I don't really see your point. I am asking if this is okay, I know how it really is, and I think it is immoral and wrong. First world countries are stepping on the one's that are already down to keep them there.
The rich have no obligation to give up there money that they earned. Forcing them to donate is coercion.
Forcing anyone to donate is not the way to go - We just have to stop taking the money from these countries. No one earned anything, majority of the large businesses in our world are lead by corrupted leaders who don't care about anything else but taking money from others.
I don't believe that's true. On what basis is this immoral amd wrong?
First world countries are stepping on the one's that are already down to keep them there.
And? Natural selectiom has ran this planet for centuries. Now you have a problem with it?
We just have to stop taking the money from these countries
How are we taking money?
No one earned anything, majority of the large businesses in our world are lead by corrupted leaders who don't care about anything else but taking money from others.
Can you back this up with sufficient evidence? That's mighty silly of you to say that "no one earned anything". If that was the case then businesses wouldn't exist because they wouldn't earn anything. Your stance is inherently illogical. Also explain how we are taking money from other countries when other countries are giving us money to help us thrive.
I don't believe that's true. On what basis is this immoral amd wrong?
Wow. Just wow.
And? Natural selectiom has ran this planet for centuries. Now you have a problem with it?
Now I have a problem with it? I have existed for 19 years, this is my first opportunity to have a problem with it. Just because something has been existing for a long time doens't make it right.
And I doubt obese diabetic guys taking all the money from healthier people (if they just got some of the massive amounts of food you guys eat there in America) is anything near natural selection.
How are we taking money?
I saw a video once, that was really good. I'm gonna try to find it for you later today, I don't have the time right now. :)
Are you going to tell me the basis of which this method of loving is immoral and wrong? How do you even judge what is immoral or moral?
Now I have a problem with it? I have existed for 19 years, this is my first opportunity to have a problem with it. Just because something has been existing for a long time doens't make it right.
Which means that it also isn't inherently wrong either. If this is the optimal system of survival then it's neither moral or immoral, but either effective or non-effective in regards to survival. If you are one of those people who say everything is relative then your automatically hindering your argument by trying to make this situation objective. Since you haven't answered the question I gave you and you decided to act like a child I am now judging the reason for you attempting to contest my in the first place. Do you even understand moral law and it's principles in the objective and subjective?
And I doubt obese diabetic guys taking all the money from healthier people (if they just got some of the massive amounts of food you guys eat there in America) is anything near natural selection.
Obese? It seems that you think it's wrong to deplete another nation's wealth, but have no regards in the negative comment you give about our elite classes. In fact you dare have the audacity to even claim that we take from our healthy when the healthy voluntarily purchase our goods and services on the market? Your ignorance is near intolerable.
Then you decide to say, "is anything near natural selection", but everything human do is apart of natural selection. You are programmed to find means to survive and reproduce. If those means involve killing, plundering, or trickery you are only following the means of natural selection. You obviously are most dominant in your domain and thus are well suited to survive and reproduce.
If you wish to continue this then answer the question I gave you in the first place. On what basis can you say that something is immoral or moral without establishing and objective?
Good video, but again what do you suppose people do about it? Also this is still in the bounds of natural selection. The rich are making the best of their abilities to survive and make sure survival is guaranteed. Regardless of the money gap morality plays no part in this issue unless you go by an objective basis. If the basis is subjective then who's to say what they are doing is wrong? They see it as right. If everything is truly relative then every opinion has no value and culture have to place value in them with no basis but a measure in effectiveness and prosperity. For the poorest percent shown in your video they will see this as wrong, and they may hold this to them as an objective stance. Others will claim that everything is subjective, but then turn around and say that these things are wrong, which contradicts their said beliefs. The richest may see this as an effective method of running a business and keep the money to themselves. So, if money won't solve the problem then what method do you wish to propose?
The rich are making the best of their abilities to survive and make sure survival is guaranteed.
Well this is the thing - We are going against evolution letting the unhealthiest live and the healthiest die. The rich aren't making the best of their abilites to survive, they are making the best of their abilites to make others die. Maybe not intentionally, but that is what they are doing - And this has nothing to do with natural selection. Because natural selection is when the strongest live and the weakest die, and right now it is opposite. Because money don't make you strong.
If the basis is subjective then who's to say what they are doing is wrong? They see it as right.
I do agree with you, that morals are subjective. But I doubt that everything is. Is letting hundreds of thousands people die of hunger, just so you can eat 7 meals a day moral? Is letting 3,000,000,000 live in poverty and hunger while the 300 richest people get to own major businesses?
We are clearly not on the same level when it comes to morals and such, but I can't see this to be right or moral on any level.
For the poorest percent shown in your video they will see this as wrong, and they may hold this to them as an objective stance.
That's not entirely true - The people in between, people me, who are neither rich or poor also see this as wrong too. I don't mean that I should get money, but the poorest should get fromt he richest.
Good video, but again what do you suppose people do about it?
That is the million dollar question. I can not answer this quesiton, I just wanted to start a debate about it, and see if there are some who agree with me.
As long as rich people do not take taxes from my paycheck as Government does to pander to it's elections, I have no problem with them. They create most of our jobs.
I have a much bigger problem with welfare addicts who refuse to live responsibly & live off my high property taxes. 70% of my property taxes go to paying for welfare.
If you want to sleep around, get pregnant, then do so on your own dime. When you run to social services to live off my sweat, then I get angry. If you don't want people butting in your lives, don't ask us for money to bail you out of your idiot choices in life.
As long as rich people do not take taxes from my paycheck as Government does to pander to it's elections, I have no problem with them. They create most of our jobs.
Election money doesnt come from your taxes you moron it comes from donations from people and corporations hence why these elected officials then are forced to govern by the needs of their highest donors and not by the people they represent. They taxes youre whining about go to things you probably dont care about like, eh, national defence, healthcare, public utilities, space exploration, postal system, fire/police, ect. You know, stupid shit.
Also no, cutting taxes on the rich does not logically lead to jobs. Trickle down economics doesnt work and has been shown to not work. The reason its pushed by conservatives is because that groups is dominated by the rich who are puppeting it in an attempt to get their own interests to gain popularity.
I have a much bigger problem with welfare addicts who refuse to live responsibly & live off my high property taxes. 70% of my property taxes go to paying for welfare.
Sure there are some who abuse it but even those people hardly cost you anything. Go live on 500% a week with a 50$ a week food budget and tell me how comfortable you are. Go ahead ill wait.
If you want to sleep around, get pregnant, then do so on your own dime. When you run to social services to live off my sweat, then I get angry. If you don't want people butting in your lives, don't ask us for money to bail you out of your idiot choices in life.
Ignoring the fact that your taxes do not pay for abortions: when you get old and can no longer work why the fuck should the money i pay into social security go to help your useless lazy ass? You get out what you pay into. You not liking it doesnt make it a bad system. Grow up you spoiled greedy fuck
The impoverished have very little to do with the 90% who have the money, unless they are impoverished because the money was stolen. This is insinuating that you are obligated to help, those in need, if you have the means to. I don't believe this idea.
Redistributing money is only dangerous if it is forced on you. Rich people need to recognize that they are taking too big a cut from the profits. They need to figure out how to pay their employees more because the current system is making it tough for workers.
This could be helped greatly if we just put some simple laws into place banning off shore banking to avoid paying taxes, increased taxes on the rich to a much higher percentage, and created term limits for congressmen. But none of these very obvious and very much needed bills would ever be passed because who controls the government? The rich. And theyre not about to let restrictions be placed on them.
So Jonny Poverty has to pay 10% of his 500$/week paycheck while Mary MiddleClass has to pay 10% of her 50,000$/year salary and Bobby Big Business only has to pay 10% of his 1.2 billion/year salary? We need a bracketing system based on income to determine what is fair yet when you do something like that logically you would make the high income bracket a larger percentage and when you do that its: "CLASS WARFARE OH NO THEYRE PERSECUTING THE RICH WHAT ABOUT THE AMERICAN DREAM?!?!"
Johnny Poverty? Mary Middle-Class? Bobby Big Business? You good sir have made my stomach hurt from laughter. You argument is well written too, but that was some excellent example names.
A 10% income tax allows rich to pay their fair share in taxes. For example, a rich person would pay 100 out 1000 dollars while a poor person would pay less. I also support social programs for the poor. What kind of tax plan do you support?
Ugh. AveSantanas is clearly familiar with the logistics of flat rate income tax, it's part of the run of the mill libertarian platitudes that plague otherwise decent political discussion. Explaining how something works does not count as a justification for why the system should be in place. Your point is moot.
A flat percentage based on income would already be higher for the rich and lower for the poor without the need to increase or decrease the percentages.
10% of say $26,000 is $2,600
10% of $50,000 is $5,000
10% of 1.2 billion dollars is 120 million.
Technically speaking this is what is fair. there’s no discrimination based on income, no penalization for making more money, no reward for making less… just the same tax percentage across the board.
Technically yes it scales the same but looking at it based on what you have left is different. The lower the number the far more significant the chunk is. For instance $2,600 out of $26,000 is huge when you take into account what other bills have to be paid. Wheras $120 million out of 1.2 billion is near nothing considering that person still has such an absurd amount of money remaining . On a low income level a 10% cut may be the difference between below the poverty line and above it wheras when you get up to the upper class making hundreds of millions a 10% cut affects them in close to no way.
Technically yes it scales the same but looking at it based on what you have left is different. The lower the number the far more significant the chunk is.
What you have left is 90 percent either way. I don’t understand how you can reason that the lower the number the far more significant the chunk, not even in comparison to what you have left. Yes, those who make more money have more money left over after taxes… but they’ve also paid a much more considerable amount in taxes to compensate for their high income. One person making 1.2 billion dollars contributes more to the government revenue than 45,000 people making 26,000 a year.
Should they be entitled to what is left? Sure, why not?
Should they pay more taxes? Sure… and they already do… even without increasing their tax burden to 40% or more.
For instance $2,600 out of $26,000 is huge when you take into account what other bills have to be paid.
Its ten percent either way you look at it…
Besides, rich people don’t have bills to pay? Manufacturing costs, pay rolls, fuel expenditures, liability insurance, lawsuits against the company, company rent/ utility payments, permits, etc…
There’s also a considerable amount of other taxes one has to pay on top of income tax, but suffice it to say that the bills and additional taxes a person making 26,000 has to pay are far less than those a person making 1.2 billion has to pay.
$120 million out of 1.2 billion is near nothing considering that person still has such an absurd amount of money remaining
Chances are a person who makes that much also has an absurd amount of expenses related to it. Increasing the tax burden leaves them with less money to pay their bills… as a result prices go up, wages go down, people get laid off, company seeks for ways to cut manufacture cost (cheaply made goods), etc.
You might think that that extra percentage the rich pay in taxes ends up balancing things out by creating a redistribution of wealth but instead the extra amount funds meaningless wars or high interest loans to impoverished countries to use as leverage for blackmail. The Government doesn't care about the poor... unless it comes to campaigning for votes.
On a low income level a 10% cut may be the difference between below the poverty line and above it wheras when you get up to the upper class making hundreds of millions a 10% cut affects them in close to no way.
Just because you are unaware of the affect it has on the economy doesn’t mean that there isn’t one. A ten percent increase in the tax burden of someone who makes 1.2 billion could mean the difference between the company failing or not.
What you have left is 90 percent either way. I don’t understand how you can reason that the lower the number the far more significant the chunk, not even in comparison to what you have left. Yes, those who make more money have more money left over after taxes… but they’ve also paid a much more considerable amount in taxes to compensate for their high income. One person making 1.2 billion dollars contributes more to the government revenue than 45,000 people making 26,000 a year.
Should they be entitled to what is left? Sure, why not?
Should they pay more taxes? Sure… and they already do… even without increasing their tax burden to 40% or more.
It isnt so much the rich having so much leftover its the poor. The chunk of money taken out of the lower class is much more significant than the chunk taken out of the rich. thats my main issue.
Also i hold no sympathy for any company that touts billions of dollars in profit. Whatever you spend on supplies can be taken out of taxes anyways so the only thing left to tax is pure profit.
The chunk of money taken out of the lower class is much more significant than the chunk taken out of the rich. thats my main issue.
And I'm saying its equal... it would be 10% either way.
Also i hold no sympathy for any company that touts billions of dollars in profit. Whatever you spend on supplies can be taken out of taxes anyways so the only thing left to tax is pure profit.
Therein lies the rub; the common misconception that "profit" is synonymous with "disposable income."
A company is required to spend their income on bills, just like an individual person is. They’re not just stockpiling and swimming in money. Running a business comes with a proportionate amount of bills to pay in order to remain successful. Being a successful business means being an asset to the country, if it cannot pay its bills and fails then it becomes a liability to the country, people lose jobs, products and services go away, tax revenue goes down.
And no, whatever a company pays a supplier doesn’t count as a tax deduction; it’s an out of pocket expense on net income and a further contributing factor to the prosperity of that supplier and in turn the economy.
My grandfather’s farm took in over 150,000 dollars per year, but after all the bills added up he was only left with about 2,000 or so of disposable income to be spent, saved or invested however he desired. That’s a lot compared to someone living close to the poverty line who has no disposable income, but he also contributed a whole lot to the local economy (supplying several grocery stores in the county with fresh veggies, providing jobs, paying taxes).
Now, consider this on a larger scale, a company that makes 1.2 billion dollars contributes a lot more to the economy on a national scale, sometimes international, not just locally. Companies have expenses to running the business which the money they make needs to be spent on; it’s not all just disposable income. And after all the bills get paid, what do you think enables the growth of the business to continue? investing that disposable income into expansions, or investing in other enterprises which helps grow the economy.
Now, after all is said and done, if you want to complain about the poor not getting a fair shake, about being born into a system that makes it hard to compete or be successful, instead of looking at the pockets of those who already contribute to the economy and saying they need to do more then they already are, try looking at where those taxes are getting spent. What does the government spend on foreign aid and war and government bailouts without any say from the people paying for it?
I acknowledge that there are several examples of crony capitalism in this country, where the rich elite go through a revolving door in the government and have an advantage over other businesses to help their outside companies succeed or to exempt their companies from taxes or fees, but this is the exception, not the rule and I don’t approve of that at all.
But I don’t see how increasing the tax burden on those who aren’t involved in the corruption, and who build the economy in an honest way (i.e. the huge majority of businesses) is “fair” or even effective. If corruption is the issue, then address that, otherwise you're pointing the blame in the wrong direction.
What if, hypothetically, an individuals tax burden would be 10% of whatever income they have above the poverty line?
For example, the current poverty line for a single-person household in most of the US is $11,670. In this model, a person earning $20,000 per year would be taxed 10% of the $8,330 difference, or $833. A person earning $50,000 per year would be taxed 10% of the $38,330 difference, or $3,833. A person earning $100,000 per year would be taxed 10% of the $88,330 difference, or $8833.
Of course, what actually constitutes the poverty line would need to be adjusted year to year, but I imagine this would be workable at both ends.
Thank you. I particularly like this idea (though both the poverty line and the actual tax percent would need some examination), because in addition to giving the government incentive to keep employment up, it also gives the government incentive to keep the cost of living (and from that, the poverty line) down. It's got some problems as is but so does everything else, and I think the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.