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Historically we have had a very robin hood type taxation since FDR and we only shifted in the opposite direction when Reagan took office. In fact The robin hood taxation of that time didn't slow or impair business at all. The tax rate of the rich doesn't seem to have much of an affect on GDP at all. Also important was the fact that wealth distribution was much more equitable when we had this type of taxation, the wealth gap between the rich and the poor was much much smaller at that time than it is now.
The colorful diagram of the tax rates is cute, but despite whatever political game that politicians play with marginal tax rates, every single year the federal government has taken 14 to 20 percent of the GDP no matter what. The average is 18%. The government is the entity that should be redistributing wealth because its historically, it is very bad at it and not just in the United States. The reason why it stays constant at 18% because human action changes, so people find loopholes in order to to pay the taxes in deductions to just not working as hard.
Why not raise the taxes to 100% marginal tax rates for the rich with no deductions of any kind? Do you think that the top 1% actual paid those high marginal tax rates during Truman to Nixon?
The colorful diagram of the tax rates is cute, but despite whatever political game that politicians play with marginal tax rates, every single year the federal government has taken 14 to 20 percent of the GDP no matter what. The average is 18%.
The margin tax rate has ranged everywhere from as low as 42% to 90%, and yet this as a function of our GDP has hardly budged. It's dubbed "Hauser's Law", and if anything I think it supports my argument. So why then do the wealthy get such generous tax breaks? Well, for the most part it's the wealthy who write the tax code.
Keep in mind that the rich don't use the programs and social support that the majority of their taxes pay for, and that cartoon doesn't include state taxes, corporate, property, sales or employment taxes so is not, in my mind, convincing. The robin hood tax they are proposing now isn't a direct tax on the rich it is a tax on all trading and buying of stock world wide. Arguments in support say this is a tax on the rich with the selling point being the money generated will be used to benefit the poor world wide, that means that money will go through the hands of thousands of people all over the world before it gets to whatever politically motivated (probably made up) group of people or agenda these self righteous "leaders" think is most deserving.
The truth is this tax can be paid by the rich, they have enough money. The people it will hurt the most is people like you and me who want to invest in the stock market. A tax very well could put that possibility out of the reach of the middle and especially the lower income class.
This tax is not a redistribution of wealth(which I don't agree with anyway) it is a blind attempt for Europe to take Americas money for their own under the guise of saving the poor.
Why is the said wealth gap between the rich and poor a bad thing? Maybe it truly reflects two distinct groups that are formed due to different levels of merit and workmanship.
A small gap isn't a bad thing, unfortunately we have more than just a small gap, we have a canyon. The gap between the rich and the poor in the U.S. is enough to put some dictatorships to shame. The economic disparity we see in this country is more than simply the result of different abilities, it is due in large part to our socio-economic environment which gives the wealthy every advantage over the poor. Not everybody is playing on a level playing field and when you have policies which artificially exaggerate that gap that is a bad thing.
It's an excellent idea. You can't rely on charitable donations of rich people. They may support a charity here or there, but it will be at their whim. If you earn millions, you can afford to pay more tax. And if you don't like it, you will have the money to hire a "creative accountant" to sort it for you.
Rich people in America are the most generous rich people in the world (in general). They give millions and millions of dollars towards things they believe in and most of them do it because they care about what they donate to and not because they get a tax break.
America and Americans don't need the government deciding how much, when and to whom their money goes. We are completely capable of being unselfish and generous without someone making us do it. Why would you force an entire country to do something that only a few people refuse to do. Their karma will come.
"Rich people in America are the most generous rich people in the world (in general)."
What are you smoking?
"They give millions and millions of dollars towards things they believe in and most of them do it because they care about what they donate to and not because they get a tax break."
One of the most amazing things about the american crony capitalist model has been the ability of the elite class to make the average Joe contented with his servitude. It's as if so many of the 99% simply hold an opinion that says "oh, I better not rock the boat, I could be rich someday", everyone has bought into the false idea of the american dream, but it's like the lottery, of course if you buy a ticket you might win, but its much more likley you'll get hit but a bus tommorrow.
The rich have deprived most americans of many of things they are perfectly entitled to, this isn't some crazy marxist propaganda, in this age of scientific advancement free healthcare and education (up to 3rd level and beyond) are a human right, especially in a country with the largest GDP in the world.
"America and Americans don't need the government deciding how much, when and to whom their money goes."
The government is supposed to represent the will of the people, something tells me the majority of americans are not in favour of 1% controlling 40%, and 10% controlling 90% of the wealth.
"Why would you force an entire country to do something that only a few people refuse to do."
If a system is already corrupt you cannot plead "tyranny of the majority".
One of the saddest things about the tea party movement is the support they have, they have activists who really beleive they are fighting for the rights of individual americans, the reality is they are fighting for corporate interests i.e. the interests of a select few
I don't understand why someone who has such obvious contempt for his fellow humans prefers a system which requires him to rely wholly on them.
The American dream is NOT a false idea, people make their dreams come true everyday here.
The feeling that a persons success is based on chance (ie a lottery ticket) is only held by you and the "99% occupy people" who by the way are not the 99% but actually 1% of the 99%.
If you or any of the occupy group new anything about American history or ideology you would know that it is never okay for the government to decide who gets the "wealth". Even if we don't like the top one percent, once you say its okay for the government to redistribute the wealth of its citizens we (all of us)become oppressed by our rulers (which is what our government becomes) and freedom and liberty for all is a fiction.
The reason that so many people don't have jobs (besides the fact that the government encourages it through unemployment benefits, food stamps, financial aid, welfare, section 8 etc.) is because the government keeps attempting to control the free market system and the economy. The truth is they don't know what there doing and don't conceive of all the consequences till its to late. The majority of Americans, of all political parties, don't like the governments hand on everything where we differ is where the hand of government needs to be.
I don't think you have done any research on the tea party I think you have (despite you self proclaimed/implied superior media critiquing ability) bought into the popular medias opinion that all the tea party is is a bunch of religious, racist, corporate loving sheep. If you actually attempted to research the group you would find it is made up of people from all walks of life, of all races, of all classes, or all religions and all political parties. That believe that the government controls to much of their lives and its infringing on our freedoms, that the government takes to much of their money and does things with it that we don't agree with and that doest benefit anyone but themselves if that idea happens to coenside with benefiting corporations then so be it but it is not there primary goal.
Why don't you stick to Irish politics, something you might actually know more about than I do. =)
"I don't understand why someone who has such obvious contempt for his fellow humans prefers a system which requires him to rely wholly on them."
I'm not so rigid that I would immediately disqualify any system that shows merit, I have my own idea's about what system of governance should be enforced, but I wouldn't dream of trying to subject others to it without majority consenting.
Note:I would address the whole "contempt for my fellow man" issue but that would require a lot of typing and would be going way off topic.
"The American dream is NOT a false idea,"
Yes, it is.
"people make their dreams come true everyday here."
Thats not the point, the point is that the majority of them do not make their dreams come true, for the overwhelming majority they never come true, they toil and sweat everyday just to get by, this is the reality for the majority, also that the majority suffer so an extreme minority can prosper and live in undeserved opulence.
"The feeling that a persons success is based on chance (ie a lottery ticket) is only held by you and the "99% occupy people"
No, its actually borne out in the statistics, its a statistical impossiblity for "the many" to prosper in the way that even the top 10% do, it jsut isn't going to happen, the kind of break throughs in science, and discovery of new resources it would take for this to happen is unfathomable, therefore under the current model the majority suffer so the minority can prosper, and majority use the fairy tale of the american dream to keep the minority compliant, then they drug them up with propaganda to keep them apathetic.
I admit this is an extremely simplistic interpretation, but its necessary in order to convey the general ideas and trends.
"who by the way are not the 99% but actually 1% of the 99%."
I'd like to see the evidence for that.
"ideology you would know that it is never okay for the government to decide who gets the "wealth"."
I agree, but the OWS movement is not as rigid as you seem to think, it isn't necessarily characterised by leftist propaganda, many of its adherent's beleive in free markets. It's primary aim to re-establish democracy, and eliminate the kind of crony capitalism that has become a hallmark of the american and european politcal landscape.
"Even if we don't like the top one percent, once you say its okay for the government to redistribute the wealth of its citizens we (all of us)become oppressed by our rulers (which is what our government becomes) and freedom and liberty for all is a fiction"
I don't beleive it's a simple as that, the gap between rich and poor has become so incredibly large precisely because the rich have been cheating to an unprecedented degree, the playing field was never level, its alway's been subject to external interference, but in recent times the degree to which it has interfered with has become intolerable. That's what has given birth to both the tea party and OWS movements.Well with the tea party there are other reasons, like the changing face of american, a longing (due to nostalgia) to return to an older time.
"The majority of Americans, of all political parties, don't like the governments hand on everything where we differ is where the hand of government needs to be"
I think we differ on a lot.
"I don't think you have done any research on the tea party I think you have (despite you self proclaimed/implied superior media critiquing ability) bought into the popular medias opinion that all the tea party is is a bunch of religious, racist, corporate loving sheep."
Yes, I think they serve corporate interests, by in large anyway, maybe not the entire movement, but strong elements within it do, that is exactly why so many of it's grass roots movements are funded by big business.
"it is made up of people from all walks of life, of all races, of all classes, or all religions and all political parties. That believe that the government controls to much of their lives and its infringing on our freedoms"
That's precisely why I said it is so sad, these people who think hey are fighting for their own rights are fighting for the right of big corporations to continue to oppress them, it's not about their interests coinciding with big business, the interests of common people never coincide with those of big business, they are being duped.
"Why don't you stick to Irish politics, something you might actually know more about than I do"
Just because you probably know more about your own political system doesn't mean you're right, plenty of people who know far more about it than you do wouldagree with much I was I have written, it boggles my mind how you can think the interests of corporations can coincide with those of the common man, that's practically a contradiction in terms, corporations are about the concentration of wealth and power into the hands of the few.
What do you think the American dream is? Do you think the only definition of success is to be a millionaire, own five cars and be able to afford an accountant to find you tax loophole?
The American dream it to be able to believe in any god, follow any religion one desires or none at all (which anyone can do here), the ability to own property (which anyone can do here). I know people who have declared bankruptcy make 24,000 a year and can sill find a way to buy their own property. To have the freedom to say what they want without the fear of persecution and to live without fear of the government.
When you say "the point is that the majority of them do not make their dreams come true," I think you are coming from the perception that all Americans want to be millionaires, when this is not true. The MAJORITY of us are happy and consider ourselves successful if we have just the essentials. If we toil all day and have a home to go to family that love us and realistic attainable ideas for retirement. These things don't just happen by buying a ticket you have to work and fail and try again and fall short and in this process (the process of living) you find whats important to you, you find out how to get it (because the opportunity IS there) and you dont give up when it gets hard.
To many people see rich people and think that they had life easy and thats not fair everybody's life should be easy. No one really knows what its like to be another person, everybody's worst experience is there worst experience even rich people get their heart broken, lose children, are raped, neglected, fail, are self conscious, have debilitating accidents. Its the things we have to overcome, the challenges we face the failure we experience and toiling we partake it that makes us successful and the only people who complain about it are the ones that are jealous of others and think that the we are supposed to be given everything.
you and the one percent of the"99%" like to imagine that corporations are big angry monsters, stomping Godzilla like on the poor people that scurry around under neath them. The poor people clutch their children to there breast and scream at the chaos and destruction caused by these self indulgent out of control superpowers. All the while thinking where is the righteous government to put some restraints on these monsters and free the money that they stolen from us and locked up inside themselves never to be exposed to the light of the sun again.
Am I wrong? This view point comes from a warped sense of reality and plain ignorance. Why dont you and all the people who think like you go out and find out why corporation where created, what constitutes a corporation and what corporations consist of.
I don't know what your conception of the american dream is, if you want to create a debate about it I'd be happy to argue it's nuances, I also don't think you really have freedom, I think you think you have freedom because you have been afforded a certain amount of personal freedom, but you certainly don't have freedom (in fact no one does, true freedom has only existed temporarily at various epochs in human history) at least no more than most countries that aren't overtly authoritarian or theocratic.
"I think you are coming from the perception that all Americans want to be millionaires, when this is not true. "
Fair enough, but all people want access to free healthcare and education, they all want fair and equitable treatment, in a country so rich, to limit these rights can only be called criminal.
"he MAJORITY of us are happy and consider ourselves successful if we have just the essentials. I"
Is that why semi-revolutions (i.e. tea party and OWS) have sprung up out of nowhere in the last 2-3 years?
"To many people see rich people and think that they had life easy and thats not fair everybody's life should be easy. No one really knows what its like to be another person, everybody's worst experience is there worst experience even rich people get their heart broken, lose children, are raped, neglected, fail, are self conscious, have debilitating accidents. Its the things we have to overcome, the challenges we face the failure we experience and toiling we partake it that makes us successful and"
I wholeheartedly agree with all of this, I don't see how it is in any way contradicting my position.
"the only people who complain about it are the ones that are jealous of others and think that the we are supposed to be given everything"
You think I'm jealous of others?, or that the people in OWS are jealous? That's way off the mark I can tell you, It's not jealous to demand that the rule law be followed, that's called being a good citizen, where do you get these notions?, you should really question where exactly you get your information from, something tells me your sources are filling your head full of twisted misinformation.
"you and the one percent of the"99%""
That's the second time you've coined that statistic, do you have any substantive evidence to back it up?, That is, aside from the inane ramblings of some right wing crackpot.
"like to imagine that corporations are big angry monsters, stomping Godzilla like on the poor people that scurry around under neath them. The poor people clutch their children to there breast and scream at the chaos and destruction caused by these self indulgent out of control superpowers. All the while thinking where is the righteous government to put some restraints on these monsters and free the money that they stolen from us and locked up inside themselves never to be exposed to the light of the sun again."
That was very well written, kudos on your prose. Now, even though I know you were parodying what you view to be some flase notion of the reality of corporations, I still agree with much of it. I mean how can you be in favour of entities that are literally (not figuratively!!!) destroying our very planet by their greed fueled machinations. How can you support entities so wealthy and powerful that the wealth of entire countries can be concentrated in the hands of few diabolicly egotistical men, entities that, bound by their own by-laws of business, are legally obliged to put profits before people under all circumstances, in all situations. You think I want governement to come to the rescue, beleive me, I don't, I simply want them to prevent these bloated life sucking balloons from guzzling up any more of our precious planet, which BTW hangs precariously in the balance, I want them to repress the urge of these entities to inexorably commodify everything (i.e. people, the enviroenment etc.) until this world and it's inhabitants die form over use and exhaustion. I want them to re-establish the regulations that have been slowly but surely eroded by the indemic bribery, lobbying, and corporate manipulation that has characterised so many political systems across the planet (your's is a prime example), the regulations that previously prevented these sterile creatures from achieving greater power e.g. corporations should not have the same rights as people, do you have any idea what that can result in?
"Am I wrong? This view point comes from a warped sense of reality and plain ignorance."
Yes, I think by in alrge you are wrong, I don't claim to be right in everything I say, and I must admit i don't have an exceptionally detailed, intricate and nuanced knowlege of this, but corporations get a bad rap for very good reasons. I would not be arging so virgorously if I wasn't fairly sure that the general message I am trying to convey is, by-in-large, correct. Why not watch the following documentary, if you disagree with the info. provided in it read up on it's criticism's(see below).
"Why dont you and all the people who think like you go out and find out why corporation where created, what constitutes a corporation and what corporations consist of."
Look, I am under no illusions about the reality of the world with which I am presented, I am well aware that corporations are a part of the modern world.
I know they ain't going to be going anywhere for the forseeable future, but that doesn't mean one should be in favour of everything they represent, because they represent a lot of very bad things in my opinion.
You know that that "documentary" on corporations that you posted is of a biased opinion, made up of many clips of past propaganda films and argued by people who are just as misinformed as you. Where you trying to convince me of something or just inform me of the source for your opinion? FYI anything with Michael Moore in it is biased and extreme.
"Fair enough, but all people want access to free health care and education, they all want fair and equitable treatment, in a country so rich, to limit these rights can only be called criminal."
People in America (I'm specifically saying America because i don't know if this is true for all country's) can and are able to educate themselves, do to the vast amount of unregulated and unoppressed information. People are also completely capable of teaching themselves how to fix a broken bone, give birth, stitch a cut suppress a fever as well as many other basics of healthcare.
There are absolutely no cases in the world where healthcar and education are free. Someone is always paying for it, the argument for health care and education in America is not whether health care should be free (because that is impossible) but who should pay for it. The debate going on about who should pay for these things are an essential part of a true democracy there are no cut and dry answers to the problem it is very complicated and will have a lasting and massive impact on our economy and policies.
"Is that why semi-revolutions (i.e. tea party and OWS) have sprung up out of nowhere in the last 2-3 years?"
I dont see the formation of passionate groups as proof that the majority of people are miserable with all aspects of this society and system but instead as proof that democracy works. OWS and the Tea party are not the first groups to form in this country and certainly not the biggest. The US is constantly changing and improving it is both limited and empowered by the people who are apart of it.
"That's the second time you've coined that statistic, do you have any substantive evidence to back it up?, That is, aside from the inane ramblings of some right wing crackpot."
The proof is I live here, I know the people I am one of them. Prove to me its not true.
"You know that that "documentary" on corporations that you posted is of a biased opinion, made up of many clips of past propaganda films and argued by people who are just as misinformed as you."
Please, if you're going to make accusations you're going to need to provide some substantive evidence. Af far as I'm aware the documentary was very well received. I don't deny the makers have an agenda, but that doesn't mean they are using facts to back up their opinions.
"FYI anything with Michael Moore in it is biased and extreme."
What? And anything with Rush Limbaugh in it is pure and unbiased, please...;-), I can show you statistics proving that the overwhelming majority of americans agree with the kinds issues Michael Moore supports, whereas only a special minority agree with the racist ranting of Rush.
I'm not very fond of Moore either, his faranheit 9/11 was a bit of hatchet job, I mean he had so much ammunition, he could have easily jsut stuck to making reasoned arguments, but no, he resorted to a form of propaganda that would make anyone on the right proud. I suppose most americans are subject toso much propaganda these days they can't even dicpher it from the truth.
"can and are able to educate themselves"
Your school system is by a long strech the worst in the developed world, in order to gain access to your 3rd level system, which surprise surprise, is the best in the world, a normal parent must get themselves into criplling debt, that isn't fair, and there is a single argurment you can present that is going to convince me otherwise.
"People are also completely capable of teaching themselves how to fix a broken bone, give birth, stitch a cut suppress a fever as well as many other basics of healthcare."
Not what I'm taking about.
"There are absolutely no cases in the world where healthcar and education are free."
Not true, both have "more or less" free in my country for years, the list of countries providing free healthcare and education is too long to list. If my country didn't have free edcation I'd probably be working a gas station somewhere.
he argument for health care and education in America is not whether health care should be free (because that is impossible) but who should pay for it."
The citizenry, as a collective unit.
"The debate going on about who should pay for these things are an essential part of a true democracy"
Agreed, but when the majority are in favour of something isn't it suppsoed to implemented?
"there are no cut and dry answers"
Yes, there are.
"I dont see the formation of passionate groups as proof that the majority of people are miserable with all aspects of this society"
Deflecting.
"but instead as proof that democracy works."
I think it's closer to the opposite of the above.
"The proof is I live here,"
I live in Ireland but I don't claim to know how many enjoying collecting twigs in the springtime.
"I know the people I am one of them"
Scientific eviednce at its best, ehh?
"Prove to me its not true."
You've clearly never heard of the philosophic burden of proof.
Obviously we both think the others sources of information are extreme and biased and since we dont have a mediator in this area perhaps we should stop posting our "slanted" links to try to prove our point. Creating a debate on the issue could be fun though.
I do think Rush Limbaugh is amazing I dont think I ever referenced him as a source of information, at most Ill quote him when I want to laugh at someone.
I believed we have touched on the subject of the U.S. public (k-12) system before and as far as I remember we agree that its crap, though I dont think you are supper qualified to judge it based on the one book you've read on the subject. As far as the college level goes it does cost money but there are hundreds of options for students to get scholarships and the government loves giving money to people especially "minority's". The group that has the toughest time getting through school financially is the middle class white male.
The cost of college depends on which one you go to, what you study and how long you have to be there. The debt one acquires is entirely their choice. Its really not that much money if you actually get a job with your degree and payments can be managed with a minimum wage job if you budget, make payments promptly and communicate with the lender.
What I really meant by educate themselves was, with a library in every town that has Internet and many computers available as well as a home computer ( that are very available) one can acquire all the information they would need to learn how to give basic healthcare and anything they would teach in college, you just wouldn't have a degree.
"both have "more or less" free in my country for years, the list of countries providing free healthcare and education is too long to list. If my country didn't have free education I'd probably be working a gas station somewhere."
It is not free, It may be free to you (for now) but the buildings dont get built for free, books dont just show up there, teachers dont work for free neither do administrators, janitors, security or cooks. All that stuff coasts millions and millions of dollar handed out by your government, taken from people, of which I bet there are many who never had and never will go to college. Do you feel good living off the back of that gas station attendant that IS doing the job you think your to good for?
"The debate going on about who should pay for these things are an essential part of a true democracy"
Agreed, but when the majority are in favor of something isn't it supposed to implemented?
The problem is the majority is NOT in favor of it. A lot of people are and therefore should be seriously considered, as well as coming up with other ideas that arnt quite as drastic.
"Obviously we both think the others sources of information are extreme and biased and since we dont have a mediator in this area perhaps we should stop posting our "slanted" links to try to prove our point."
The key difference is that "the corporation" is a factual documentary, and probably has more journalistic integrity than many of the sources you deem to trustworthy, without even purporting to be scholarship.
"I do think Rush Limbaugh is amazing"
He is a pig, and thus, should be roasted on a spit. The man is a Nazi, simple as.
"fied to judge it based on the one book you've read on the subject."
I didn't need to read anything, that was just out of interest, a mere checking of the rankings suffices.
"government loves giving money to people especially "minority's"."
Ya, those greedy minorities, getting all the benefits.
"The group that has the toughest time getting through school financially is the middle class white male."
Yes, the poor white male, in the forge of human history, his is truly a tale woe.
"The cost of college depends on which one you go to, what you study and how long you have to be there. The debt one acquires is entirely their choice. Its really not that much money if you actually get a job with your degree and payments can be managed with a minimum wage job if you budget, make payments promptly and communicate with the lender."
Education should be free to all those capable and willing to learn, this should be as a basic a human right as the right to life as far as I'm concerned.
"What I really meant by educate themselves was, with a library in every town that has Internet and many computers available as well as a home computer ( that are very available) one can acquire all the information they would need to learn how to give basic healthcare and anything they would teach in college, you just wouldn't have a degree."
I know what you meant, I agree to certain extent, this however will severely limit the fufillment of all human potentialities.
"It is not free, It may be free to you (for now) but the buildings dont get built for free, books dont just show up there, teachers dont work for free neither do administrators, janitors, security or cooks. All that stuff coasts millions and millions of dollar handed out by your government, taken from people,"
So? Roads and bridges and aren't free either, but transportation sure would be hampered without them.
"of which I bet there are many who never had and never will go to college."
You're missing the point, if education is free, most people will avail of it, and those who don't will benefit from a massively improved society it creates.
"Do you feel good living off the back of that gas station attendant that IS doing the job you think your to good for?"
What makes you think i think I'm too good for it? I'm not going to tolerate this kind fo slander. I would do whatever is necesary to make my way in this world, I come from a working class family, when I hit the age of 11-12, any day that wasn't a school day was a day spent working with my father, I am no stranger to hard graft and manual labour, I spent most of my summers lifting blocks, mixing cement, down on my hands and knees in some construction yard, coming home so tired I'd have to go to bed at 7:00pm, and most of time for very little money. I was intentionally deprieved of money throughout my childhood and teens in order for me to elarn the value of it. Any money I got had to be earned in some way or another, I was never given any handouts by my parents. My mother grew up in abject poverty in a family with 14 brothers and sisters and no father, she made sure to instill those values in me at any cost. Now, I normally don't like to discuss my background on this site because it allows people a chance to characterise you, and thus label you as being "this way, because he's from this background" ect.....ect., because eveyone fancies themselves to be an expert psychoanalyst, but I can tell you've already labelled me, even though you hvae seriously indequate information, so I'm setting the record straight.
"The problem is the majority is NOT in favor of it."
Not true, most americans want free healthcare and education.
No matter how smart you think your elected officials are they and the majority of Americans, let alone the rest of the world have no idea how the stock market really works. This lack of understanding however is not going to stop the government from jumping into a world wide tax with unforeseen and uncomprehended consequences. They are only capable of seeing into the near future and not at all capable of seeing the folly in there righteously named robin hood tax. Unfortunately the name alone will convince idiots world wide that nothing bad could happen if this was put into affect.
