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Is there free will in heaven?
I've frequently heard many christians argue that the reason that evil exists is because of free will. God must give us the choice to do evil, for this is what preserves free will. The ability to choose good or evil.
So my question is: Is there free will in heaven?
If yes, then evil should be possible there. And unless God somehow changes our nature, why wouldn't we continue doing "minor" sins here and there? Just as we do on earth.
If no, does the deprivation of free will bother you at all?
Yes. According to Christian theology and biblical studies. After the millennial reign and Satan comes back again and gets defeated once more the curse of sin and death is lifted. Therefore you will be like Adam and Eve before Eve ate the fruit. Completely sinless and perfect. Therefore you would, with past knowledge of good and evil, not want to sin or do bad. You would use your free will for benevolence. This is just what I have learned from studies. Still isn't convincing.
Therefore you will be like Adam and Eve before Eve ate the fruit. Completely sinless and perfect. Therefore you would, with past knowledge of good and evil, not want to sin or do bad. You would use your free will for benevolence.
But would I be capable of sin? Either intentionally or accidentally?
Yep. Sin wouldnt have a place though. So you primarily wouldn't even have an accident. Nothing could make you have an accident. It is supposed to be complete perfection. Intentionally yes. It would be like sticking your face in poop though because you would not even want to. It would be highly revolting.
Then why didn't God just do this in the first place on earth? Give everybody free will, and make everybody perfect.
Intentionally yes. It would be like sticking your face in poop though because you would not even want to. It would be highly revolting.
Given the numbers, somebody would do it eventually. Unless you assume God changed everybody to be perfect, which changes the very nature of who you are rather drastically. Not to mention, what if you have a family member or close friend who got sent to hell? That would torment a lot of people, unless God had changed you to where you wouldn't feel any discomfort that your friends or family are burning in hell (regardless of whether they deserve it or not). At this point, are you even yourself anymore?
Then why didn't God just do this in the first place on earth? Give everybody free will, and make everybody perfect.
He did. There names were Adam and Eve. If nothing is there to tempt you with there mindset you wont sin or do bad. They didnt even know they were naked.
Given the numbers, somebody would do it eventually. Unless you assume God changed everybody to be perfect, which changes the very nature of who you are rather drastically. Not to mention, what if you have a family member or close friend who got sent to hell? That would torment a lot of people, unless God had changed you to where you wouldn't feel any discomfort that your friends or family are burning in hell (regardless of whether they deserve it or not). At this point, are you even yourself anymore?
Given the numbers of perfection? 0. Who would do it? The people that go to heaven would have made that critical choice and be saved from sin. They cant be affected by negative emotions amd only joy and happiness so grieving would not occur. You will no become your true self. The sinless you which is unimaginable because sin is blinding you according to le bible.
He did. There names were Adam and Eve. If nothing is there to tempt you with there mindset you wont sin or do bad. They didnt even know they were naked.
I don't think that was earth. This was in "paradise", wherever that was. I believe they were banished to earth afterwards. Not to mention, this is only two people. Not 7 billion.
The whole idea of god changing everybody to be perfect sounds really strange. You'll never think any bad thoughts ever, it won't even be possible by your nature. Sounds like a completely different person.
Given the numbers of perfection? 0. Who would do it? The people that go to heaven would have made that critical choice and be saved from sin. They cant be affected by negative emotions amd only joy and happiness so grieving would not occur. You will no become your true self. The sinless you which is unimaginable because sin is blinding you according to le bible.
But then are they really themselves? I don't think so. If my brother were burning in hell, I would definitely be affected by it. And if I was not, then that wouldn't be me in heaven. It would be some "other" me.
I don't think that was earth. This was in "paradise", wherever that was. I believe they were banished to earth afterwards. Not to mention, this is only two people. Not 7 billion.The whole idea of god changing everybody to be perfect sounds really strange. You'll never think any bad thoughts ever, it won't even be possible by your nature. Sounds like a completely different person.
That was Earth buddy. Heaven and Earth is all that existed. Also 7 billion? That many people wont make it into heaven.
The whole idea of god changing everybody to be perfect sounds really strange. You'll never think any bad thoughts ever, it won't even be possible by your nature. Sounds like a completely different person.
You nor I cannot fathom it. We arent in our "true" form.
But then are they really themselves? I don't think so. If my brother were burning in hell, I would definitely be affected by it. And if I was not, then that wouldn't be me in heaven. It would be some "other" me.
Did you tell your brother about God or try to save his life? If so that would be sad and I wouldnt know how to explain it. But only joy and happiness exists. Also we arent able to imagine our other self.
That was Earth buddy. Heaven and Earth is all that existed. Also 7 billion? That many people wont make it into heaven.
How did satan become evil? free will? He would have been in heaven. How did he turn evil? What "temptation" did he have if he was also created perfect by God?
How did satan become evil? free will? He would have been in heaven. How did he turn evil? What "temptation" did he have if he was also created perfect by God?
How did lucifer sin? He wanted to be God. His decided not to obey or worship God and Satan made an eternal choice. God gave all the angels the choice and a third went with Satan. They made an eternal choice. You see after the millenial reign the old earth and heaven are gone and a new one will be restored according to the bible.
I dispute that based on "biblical studies" notion.
God knew from "day one" that adam and eve would eat from the tree and that by doing that everything evil would happen and billions of souls will go to heaven if he puts the tree where he did HERE (lets say)
But he ALSO knew that if he put the tree HERE (different location) they WOULDNT eat from it and nobody would go to hell, ect.
So him knowing this, placed the tree where he did HERE to create the chain of events that it did. So he really stripped Eve of her free will by putting it where he did.
ALSO if were talking quoting the bible lets look at the Exodus (for one). Moses is told by god to get the Isrealites out of Egypt and to talk to Pharoh. BUT god tells moses that he will "harden phoarohs heart and he will not listen to you".
God directly manipulates phoarohs free will because he does harden his heart so that moses has an excuse to put the plagues on Egypt.
We can guess that if god hadnt done that then phoaroh would have let them leave because god apparently had to do it!
And my third example:
Hell. the fact that hell exists and we "know" hell exists is totally messing with free will. Its a fear factor pushing us into believing. I used this analogy with Srom:
Lets say i take you Lizzy and strap you to a chair by the waist so you cant leave. Then i hand you and apple. I tell you "Lizzie, you can eat this apple if you want to or not, its up to you". Then i take out a gun and put it to your temple and add "but if you dont eat it ill blow your head off. But its your choice :)" The apple being belief in god/heaven and the gun being hell and me being god. Thats what hell is.
So in this scenario you dont really have free will if youre not insane.
These are just a couple examples of god fucking up the free will thing. its an illusion in a world where there is an omniscient god. impossible
That analogy you used is bad and wrong. Also, the question asked is, is there free will IN HEAVEN. Your points are about free will in general, while this debate is about free will In Heaven.
The analogy is sound and it also relates to Heaven because if you didn't have free will to get to Heaven why would you suddenly get it in Heaven. You do as God commands or you go to hell, that's not free will, in Heaven you continue to do as God commands or what? You can't go to Hell after your eternal choice, but if you have free will you now would have the option to do something to make someone else's Heaven suck, if Heaven sucked for even one person it wouldn't be Heaven, so to prevent that God must ensure that you always do good things in heaven, thus stripping you of your free will.
If there's no free will in general with god, why would there be free will in heaven? Also, I think my analogy is perfectly reflective of Christianity, If its so wrong, refute it.
And my analogy can be switched up to answer the heaven question if you want. If you're in heaven, how do you have any free will? Gods RIGHT THERE. You're telling me you'll be able to do anything but exactly what he wants? It's a prison of eternal ass kissing.
First off, I do believe that there is free will on earth and in heaven. Also, in regards to your analogy, God is giving us the option. God is our creator and he loves us and wants us to be good but he has no control over our decisions. God would not be forcing a gun to our heads. Sinning is a bad thing, however not biting an apple is not bad. God isn't a lunatic.
"If you're in heaven, how do you have any free will? Gods RIGHT THERE. You're telling me you'll be able to do anything but exactly what he wants? It's a prison of eternal ass kissing."
We will be good, and there will be no evil, bad, or sin inside of us. So other then these things you do have free will, because the rest is ok. In Heaven God doesn't WANT things from us. And it is not "a prison of eternal ass kissing." wtf! We live freely and peacefully so how is that a prison.
First off, I do believe that there is free will on earth and in heaven
Okay, now support that
God is our creator and he loves us and wants us to be good but he has no control over our decisions.
1) prove god is our creator though for the sake of debate ill treat it as a hypothetical scenario
2) Many biblical occurances lead us to assume he hates us seeing as he has murdered millions and sends souls to hell and loves sacrifice so much
3) By definition he is omnipotent. He can do anything including alter our decisions and wills.
4) Youre assuming you know what god thinks and you speak for him. how can you do that? You arent god. for all you know he might hate us and love fish
God would not be forcing a gun to our heads.
Hell is exactly like a gun! The bible is very clear, you believe in god/jesus or you go to hell. BUT ITS YOUR CHOICE :) Well not really! Do you know how many christians that are only that way because they are so afraid of hell they wont denounce their religions? THOUSANDS.
Sinning is a bad thing, however not biting an apple is not bad.
Um....what? That makes gramatical sense but i dont know where youre going with that.
God isn't a lunatic.
I beg to differ. His actions reflect his clear stupidity or insanity. He gets a jolly from burning animal fumes and such simple, obvious solutions to so many problems he has seem to allude him completely.
(Heres a tip, put two asterisks () in a row before and after the other persons argument to bold it Ex: Cake <---* = cake )
We will be good, and there will be no evil, bad, or sin inside of us
So we will be forced to be good because all the evil will be sucked out of us? that takes away the will to be bad in any way
So other then these things you do have free will, because the rest is ok.
So youre saying we have SEMI free will? Thats still messing with over all free will
wtf! We live freely and peacefully so how is that a prison.
1) have you been to heaven? you seem to know an awful lot about it.
2) Youre there for eternity. Thats exactly like a prison no matter how great it might be
3) how can it be so peacefull and free as you are consciously aware of millions of people including potential loved ones that are roasting in eternal hellfire as you sip a margarita in paradise? That seems worse than hell. Id rather be in hell with family than in heaven alone. Your god is an ass.
"Many biblical occurances lead us to assume he hates us seeing as he has murdered millions and sends souls to hell and loves sacrifice so much"
I am guessing that you have no clue why he did theses things, as most people that use that argument don't.
"Youre assuming you know what god thinks and you speak for him. how can you do that? "
That is my belief. Also, how could you say that God hates us. Do you know what he thinks or feels hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
"for all you know he might hate us and love fish"
That is such an idiotic statement im not even going to say anything about it.
"you believe in god/jesus or you go to hell. BUT ITS YOUR CHOICE :) Well not really!"
GOD CREATED US. He loves us and is the reason we are here. If you are stupid enough to not accept him then that is your own fault. However, it is your CHOICE.
"Um....what? That makes gramatical sense but i dont know where youre going with that."
I was basically saying how your analogy isn't true. It is bad because the apple scenario doesn't represent the freewill/heaven situation.
"So we will be forced to be good because all the evil will be sucked out of us? that takes away the will to be bad in any way"
No. We will be in our purest form. That means evil wont b apart of us at all, That is actually how it is supposed to be. Technically we aren't being FORCED to be anything, its just part of us. You wont have the will to be bad because there will be no such thing as bad.
" have you been to heaven? you seem to know an awful lot about it. "
Shut up. IT IS MY BELIEF. It also says this IN THE BIBLE. obviously I have never been there you smart ass. You cant make a comment like that because that is what I believe, and that is what I know to be true. Also, this whole debate is based off of these things being true, so ur comment makes no sense.
"Youre there for eternity. Thats exactly like a prison no matter how great it might be"
Awwwwwwwww. Poor people, Getting locked up in a perfect, peacfull, non-evil place. OH! And even worse! They have to stay there FOREVER. THE HORRORRRR!!!!!!!!!!
ok. So if heaven is a so called prison, then where do you want to go. hmm.
"Your god is an ass."
Shut the heck up. My God is an awesome God. I don't care what you say.
Not really. Your "refutation" was the equivalent of saying "NU UH!"
I am guessing that you have no clue why he did theses things, as most people that use that argument don't.
Wrong, i do. Apparently the world was so full of vile sinners that instead of finding some other way to fix this god just said "fuck it, ill start over". And he used to send people to hell with the idea of "inherited sin" which is retarded. Now he does it just because you dont believe in jesus. How petty. You get tortured for eternity for not kissing the ass of a god who shouldnt need such ass kissing but demands it anyways.
That is my belief
Then specify that and dont state it as fact
Also, how could you say that God hates us Do you know what he thinks or feels hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
I didnt say that he hates us, i said WHAT IF he does. You dont know god so you dont know if he loves or hates us. With all the "sin" in the world nowadays my guess is he hates our guts. Also, you kinda gotta hate someone to send them to hell.
I didnt state it as a fact.
And for the record, this is all hypothetical because i think your god is fake
That is such an idiotic statement im not even going to say anything about it
Again, just a hypothetical thing. What im saying is YOU dont know gods thought process. You dont know anything about what he thinks or feels. Neither does anyone. SO he COULD love fish for all you know.
GOD CREATED US
AND BOOM. prove that huge statement.
he loves us and is the reason we are here
Again with the stating things you cant possibly know! For all you know he couldve sneezed and poof were here! And also, how is him loving us our purpose for existence? That makes no sense.
If you are stupid enough to not accept him then that is your own fault
Actually im too smart to be swindled out of my critical thinking and trapped in blind faith with the rest of you sheep. Baaa. Whoops, that one slipped.
However, it is your CHOICE
Not really. Belief is not a switch you can flick on and off on a whim. I couldnt believe in god even if i wanted to because i havent been convinced he exists and the evidence against him is so overwhelming and convincing.
Take this example:
Try to believe in santa clause right now! Do it! Cant can you? Thats how god is to atheists. Thats how it is with everything we believe. Will doesnt dictate belief.
I was basically saying how your analogy isn't true. It is bad because the apple scenario doesn't represent the freewill/heaven situation
Im still not understanding it completely but we'll leave it at that.
No. We will be in our purest form. That means evil wont b apart of us at all, That is actually how it is supposed to be
Really? How do you know that? Doesnt say that anywhere in the bible. Bible doesnt say anthing about heaven really. Also, what makes us US, is everything inside us that makes our personality. Thats the good AND bad together. If you remove the bad, youre not you anymore and im not me. Purest form would change who we are against our wills
Technically we aren't being FORCED to be anything, its just part of us. You wont have the will to be bad because there will be no such thing as bad.
Exactly, its part of us. Remove a part of us and were incomplete. Different. Changed. And the last part goes along with the "you dont know what heaven is like" point i made above
Shut up. IT IS MY BELIEF
Testy arent we? And if its your belief than 1) specify that and dont state these things like facts for everyone. It may be fact to you but not to me.
and 2) beliefs can be WRONG. ever think of that? You dont seem to even consider that possibility
It also says this IN THE BIBLE
Where? Seriously, find the passage that explains heaven in detail
that is what I believe, and that is what I know to be true
Belief does not dictate truth. Those two things you said above conflict. Belief could be right or wrong but truth is fact. You cant equate them. If i believe in unicorns does that make unicorns real? No. The same applies here
Awwwwwwwww. Poor people, Getting locked up in a perfect, peacfull, non-evil place. OH! And even worse! They have to stay there FOREVER. THE HORRORRRR!!!!!!!!!!
Soooo you dont get when IM using sarcasm but you seem to know how to use it...curious. Also, by people having to stay there forever it seems that removes the will to leave if you want.
Also im guessing you didnt watch the video in the link i gave,,,
ok. So if heaven is a so called prison, then where do you want to go. hmm
Hell. Id rather be with anyone who defys that asshole AND be with my family AND still retain WHO I AM, then become another brick in the wall of masses who constantly have to revere the guy who made their existence possible even though he should be mature enough to not need such praise.
I wouldnt want to be with the guy who caused so much torment in the world for seemingly no good reason.
Shut the heck up. My God is an awesome God. I don't care what you say.
heck! ooh gee whilickers you sure showed me. Your morality and my morality are so far superior to the morality of your so called god but out of fear and the lack of ability to think for yourself outside your religion youre unable to admit that
Just about all of your refutations are based off of the same thing, and that is that I have no proof for anything. Im not going to waste my time debating you because you just wont get it.
"Not really. Your "refutation" was the equivalent of saying "NU UH!""
W O W. Clearly you must not have read what I said b/c it actually made sense. You could of tried to understand it before you posted such a childish thing that made you look dumb.
Just about all of your refutations are based off of the same thing, and that is that I have no proof for anything. Im not going to waste my time debating you because you just wont get it.
Therefore you would, with past knowledge of good and evil, not want to sin or do bad.
That's insinuating people are perfect and would already want to be benevolent. I highly doubt anyone wants to be 'evil' it's just something that happens. Hitler wasn't hellbent on being the most hated person in the world, he just believed in his cause, no one could change that, not even knowing that everyone would be against his cause.
We already have past knowledge of our evil, as for the religious people that's the bible, and for the non religious we have history and textbooks. Yet we still do evil, albeit not thinking it's evil, so what's making us do evil, or making some of us not do evil? That's a real question for you.
Hopefully you do know the answer is you. Literally free will is all I have to say. What makes you do evil? You. What makes you do good? You. What Hitler did was legal. He knew what he did was wrong even though it was legal. This simply cannot be a real question.
That's insinuating people are perfect and would already want to be benevolent.
That is exactly what happens. So what are you trying to say?
That is exactly what happens. So what are you trying to say?
I'm saying, that as I addressed in my argument, that people knowing what they are doing is bad, won't make them just do good.
This simply cannot be a real question.
It's funny. In answering that, you should be changing sides. What makes anyone do anything is, as you said, there free will. Them. In heaven what's to prevent people from being bad? Them. What's may make them be bad if they just decide screw it? Them.
Heaven can not be perfect if it's relying on people always deciding the most proper option, because people don't always do just that. Sometimes, for random reasons other times out of necessity, people don't make the proper choice. In a perfect Heaven there would have to be individual heavens for all where you can do whatever you want, which I highly doubt, or everyone would be programmed to follow these perfect rules, I.e. not free will.
It's funny. In answering that, you should be changing sides. What makes anyone do anything is, as you said, there free will. Them. In heaven what's to prevent people from being bad? Them. What's may make them be bad if they just decide screw it? Them.
You must not understand the new heaven or what will actually happen heaven comes to earth and a new world is formed. Sin is eradicated. If the sin isnt there you cant sin for you are made a new and made an eternal decision. You cannot really sin if nothing is there to make you sin. The is no tree of knowledge of good and evil, which had its fruits eaten by Adam and Eve.
Heaven can not be perfect if it's relying on people always deciding the most proper option, because people don't always do just that
That doesnt make sense. Relying on people to make the right option? You would have made the same choice Satan did which is an eternal choice. Satan never tried to apologize. Satan never regretted what he did. It was his eternal decision. Therefore we would have made an eternal decision to follow God which involves you being made complete. Sinless in nature. Simply able to determine right from wrong. What would you gain from sin? On earth, right now, tell me, what is the point in sinning?
In a perfect Heaven there would have to be individual heavens for all where you can do whatever you want, which I highly doubt, or everyone would be programmed to follow these perfect rules, I.e. not free will.
Free will always exists. You just wont sin. What would you gain and why would you want to? Answer me that.
You must not understand the new heaven or what will actually happen heaven comes to earth and a new world is formed. Sin is eradicated
How? Would people still be able to make choices? If the answer is yes, then people could still make a bad choice like what happened when Eve decided to take a fruit from the tree of knowledge.
If the sin isnt there you cant sin for you are made a new and made an eternal decision.
Why did God make Sin from the start then?
You cannot really sin if nothing is there to make you sin.
So we are not responsible for our sins? So why does anyone go to Hell?
Therefore we would have made an eternal decision to follow God which involves you being made complete.
And in being made complete you never get to make any more choices? That's lack of free will.
On earth, right now, tell me, what is the point in sinning?
How am I supposed to know? I don't sin because I don't believe it exists, I don't know what makes a sin any worse than anything.
Free will always exists. You just wont sin.
What you're not answering is why. That's like saying the answers to the test are on the ceiling you just won't cheat.
What would you gain and why would you want to? Answer me that.
The answer to that is life of Earth. People sin and yet they gain nothing from it, so why do they do it? You can answer me that. Why do people sin?
How? Would people still be able to make choices? If the answer is yes, then people could still make a bad choice like what happened when Eve decided to take a fruit from the tree of knowledge.
1) There will be no tree of knowledge of good and evil or anything of its sort so toss that out the window.
2) What would you gain by making a bad choice when you dont gain anything?
3) You will be like Adam and Eve before they ate the fruit.
Why did God make Sin from the start then?
You are still missing the key concept of free will. If I create a perfect being it can either do good or bad. Sin comes with that automatically. So if you make a being with free will sin comes with it. So you need to realize that free will plays a major role in God's ideals.
So we are not responsible for our sins? So why does anyone go to Hell?
You took it out of context. This is about life in heaven not earth. Stay in the heaven track where hell has nothing to do wih your eternal life. By the way yes you sinned. So you are responsible because you chose that action.
And in being made complete you never get to make any more choices? That's lack of free will.
Never said that did I? Of course not. You have to realize that sinning in heaven will do nothing. You cant gain anything. Also sin wont have a place there so you wouldnt want to sin. There is nothing there to make you want to sin.
How am I supposed to know? I don't sin because I don't believe it exists, I don't know what makes a sin any worse than anything.
Now you are about to contradict yourself. If you think sin does not exist then why are you debating on it? You are saying that we can sin in heaven yet you dont believe in sin. That makes no sense.
What you're not answering is why. That's like saying the answers to the test are on the ceiling you just won't cheat.
Thats is a poor analogy. I have no clue what that has to do with anything.
The answer to that is life of Earth. People sin and yet they gain nothing from it, so why do they do it? You can answer me that. Why do people sin?
Life on Earth? You gain life on Earth by sinning. Slowly repeat that to yourself. That simply cannot tie together. You sin in order to get life on Earth. I dont understand what that answer even means or if it is even applicable.
People sin and yet they gain nothing from it, so why do they do it?
You obviously gain something. Either a feeling or an achievement or money or whatever. If you dont gain from sin you wont want to do it.
You can answer me that. Why do people sin?
1) Free will allows people to sin on earth but in heaven sinning wouldnt occur. It doesnt exist up there or should I say the future "here".
1) There will be no tree of knowledge of good and evil or anything of its sort so toss that out the window.
There isn't one now. Yet evil exists.
2) What would you gain by making a bad choice when you dont gain anything?
Can you answer that conundrum? When people, who already know they will gain nothing by making bad choices...still make bad choices.
3) You will be like Adam and Eve before they ate the fruit.
As in "able to make a bad choice" which they eventually did. Sorry not helping your cause.
If I create a perfect being it can either do good or bad.
That's the real point of the debate now isn't it? If Heaven is perfect, as you keep saying like before Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they will still have that evil potential. If they have that evil potential, they can at any point become evil, as as history has shown with Eve eating the fruit, that choice to do evil will be made at some point, regardless of what one has to gain or not, with Eve knowing that there was nothing to gain from eating the fruit.
You took it out of context.
It was given to me out of context, I certainly can not be blamed for accepting it that way.
This is about life in heaven not earth.
Exactly. On Earth, free will is evident because, with nothing to gain, people still do evil. In Heaven, a place that is supposed to be perfect, free will will mean people can do bad, yet if people can do bad that place can't be perfect, like Earth is not perfect, so to ensure that no one does bad, Free will must be taken from us.
Never said that did I? Of course not.
I assumed it. You were very unclear in your wording.
You have to realize that sinning in heaven will do nothing. You cant gain anything. Also sin wont have a place there so you wouldnt want to sin. There is nothing there to make you want to sin.
Okay from the top. Why will sinning in Heaven even exist if it's perfect? You can't gain anything here on Earth yet sin still happens. Won't have a place? So it won't exist or it will be frowned upon? I know it's frowned upon here yet it happens, if it doesn't exist then that means that choice is taken from you, thus no longer free will. What is making you want to sin here on Earth?
Now you are about to contradict yourself. If you think sin does not exist then why are you debating on it?
Actually I say sin doesn't exist because I don't believe that it's an all too definable subject. It's only a sin because God says to do it. Killing is a sin, yet God does it all the time, but God is perfect so he couldn't sin, but he said killing is a sin, see how contradictory this gets. So if I'm sounding contradictory it's only because the basis for which I'm arguing on (religion) is just as contradictory.
Thats is a poor analogy. I have no clue what that has to do with anything.
You said (paraphrased) that we will have the ability to sin, but we just won't. What you never said is why. The analogy is saying that we have the ability to cheat on a test because the answers are literally right above our heads, but we just won't yet I don't tell why. So I ask again, why would we, with the ability to sin, just choose not to? If your answer is that we would gain nothing from it, you would be leaving out the fact that we also have nothing to gain from it here on Earth yet we still do. Meaning that is not a sound reason we not Sin in Heaven.
Life on Earth? You gain life on Earth by sinning. Slowly repeat that to yourself.
"What would you gain and why would you want to? Answer me that."
That was your question. My answer to that question was the existence of life on Earth. The existence of life on Earth is proof that people will sin regardless of having something to gain or not. Meaning in Heaven people will sin regardless of having something to gain or not, so the only way to ensure Heaven stays sin free (the only way it could be perfect) is to strip people of free will so they won't sin, regardless of having something to gain or not.
You obviously gain something.
You sin, you go to hell, what did you gain?
Either a feeling or an achievement or money or whatever.
You're only including major sins. There are smaller sins, like eating certain banned foods, having a feeling of envy is a sin, getting a tattoo, sassing God is a sin, there are tons of smaller sins where you literally gain nothing yet in doing those you are doomed to hell if you don't repent. In Heaven we either won't be able to do those things, i.e. not free will, or well there is no or. If we could do these sins in Heaven and just repent it wouldn't be perfect.
1) Free will allows people to sin on earth but in heaven sinning wouldnt occur. It doesnt exist up there or should I say the future "here".
2) To gain something from it.
I asked why people sin, those were your answers.
1.) Free will allows people to sin on Earth but in heaven it would occur...because we have no free will. That's basic logic right there. It doesn't exist up there or future here... because God destroyed that desire in us, something he could have done from the start if he had the capabilities, but didn't either because he doesn't (meaning he's not omnipotent) or he doesn't love us. (meaning he's not omnibenevolent)
If he's not either of those, he's not God and that makes the basis for all of this arguing groundless, meaning there is no free will in Heaven now because Heaven wouldn't exist.
2) To gain something from it.
What does a gay person gain from just loving the person they love?
What does a psychopath gain from his/her random serial kills?
What does a greedy person gain from loving money?
These are a few examples of times where you sin not because you 'gain something' but because it is the natural way you are, (by your omnibenevolent God) and for that reason you will be cast to hell.
Yeah.....the event already happen. So I dont know why that was stated.
Can you answer that conundrum? When people, who already know they will gain nothing by making bad choices...still make bad choices.
Please list some sins that gain absolutely nothing.
As in "able to make a bad choice" which they eventually did. Sorry not helping your cause.
Again. No tree of life or anything like it. So why do you keep saying that you wipl sin if that object or objects like it wont exist up there?
That's the real point of the debate now isn't it? If Heaven is perfect, as you keep saying like before Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they will still have that evil potential. If they have that evil potential, they can at any point become evil, as as history has shown with Eve eating the fruit, that choice to do evil will be made at some point, regardless of what one has to gain or not, with Eve knowing that there was nothing to gain from eating the fruit.
Fill in the entire story. Satan tempted her. Satan is not in heaven. He doesnt apply. Your statement still isnt applicable.
It was given to me out of context, I certainly can not be blamed for accepting it that way.
I was talking about heaven and you are talking about present tense. The two do not help you in this debate.
Exactly. On Earth, free will is evident because, with nothing to gain, people still do evil. In Heaven, a place that is supposed to be perfect, free will will mean people cando bad, yet if people can do bad that place can't be perfect, like Earth is not perfect, so to ensure that no one does bad, Free will must be taken from us
I am sorry but that still makes zero sense.
1) People sin on Earth for something to gain.
2) Sin doesnt exist in heaven.
I assumed it. You were very unclear in your wording
Of course you did.
Okay from the top. Why will sinning in Heaven even exist if it's perfect? You can't gain anything here on Earth yet sin still happens. Won't have a place? So it won't exist or it will be frowned upon? I know it's frowned upon here yet it happens, if it doesn't exist then that means that choice is taken from you, thus no longer free will. What is making you want to sin here on Earth?
Again. You gain from sin on Earth. Sin doesnt have a place in heaven. You wouldnt even want to sin. Like I already said.
Actually I say sin doesn't exist because I don't believe that it's an all too definable subject. It's only a sin because God says to do it. Killing is a sin, yet God does it all the time, but God is perfect so he couldn't sin, but he said killing is a sin, see how contradictory this gets. So if I'm sounding contradictory it's only because the basis for which I'm arguing on (religion) is just as contradictory.
If judgement must be 100% just then he must do what he must do thanks to Adam and Eve and humanity.
You said (paraphrased) that we will have the ability to sin, but we just won't. What you never said is why. The analogy is saying that we have the ability to cheat on a test because the answers are literally right above our heads, but we just won't yet I don't tell why. So I ask again, why would we, with the ability to sin, just choose not to? If your answer is that we would gain nothing from it, you would be leaving out the fact that we also have nothing to gain from it here on Earth yet we still do. Meaning that is not a sound reason we not Sin in Heaven.Life on Earth? You gain life on Earth by sinning.
Again. Again. Again. On earth you can gain from sin. In heaven you dont gain. Sin doesnt have a place in heaven.
That was your question. My answer to that question was the existence of life on Earth. The existence of life on Earth is proof that people will sin regardless of having something to gain or not. Meaning in Heaven people will sin regardless of having something to gain or not, so the only way to ensure Heaven stays sin free (the only way it could be perfect) is to strip people of free will so they won't sin, regardless of having something to gain or not.
People gain from sin on earth. Sin doesnt have a place in heaven. With free will comes the ability of right and wrong amd since current earth is polluted with sin we cannot even fathom heaven.
You sin, you go to hell, what did you gain?
Now we are placing diction in future tense. Good. Now here is that easy answer. On earth currently people sin to gain something. If what yiu are saying is true why are you not finding God then?
You're only including major sins. There are smaller sins, like eating certain banned foods, having a feeling of envy is a sin, getting a tattoo, sassing God is a sin, there are tons of smaller sins where you literally gain nothing yet in doing those you are doomed to hell if you don't repent. In Heaven we either won't be able to do those things, i.e. not free will, or well there is no or. If we could do these sins in Heaven and just repent it wouldn't be perfect.
Thank you. You just justified my claim like I was hoping. You gain a feeling dont you? Of course you do. Getting that tattoo will bring you pleasure with yourself. So thanks.
.) Free will allows people to sin on Earth but in heaven it would occur...because we have no free will. That's basic logic right there. It doesn't exist up there or future here... because God destroyed that desire in us, something he could have done from the start if he had the capabilities, but didn't either because he doesn't (meaning he's not omnipotent) or he doesn't love us. (meaning he's not omnibenevolent)If he's not either of those, he's not God and that makes the basis for all of this arguing groundless, meaning there is no free will in Heaven now because Heaven wouldn't exist.
Increasing your rhetoric will jot make me bow down. I can see the fallacy of this. You still are missing the big key. How do you sin in heaven if sin doesnt exist? Please tell me how that is possible. Please do. He loves everybody and he is trying to hold out the olive branch so why would he save you if you dont want it? Thats force. He doesnt do that. He delivers those who truly want it. He could easily heal everybody but you dont want to. You decide to go against his word and if he is a just god would that be correct? He wouldnt do that and you seem to fail at realizing that.
What does a gay person gain from just loving the person they love?What does a psychopath gain from his/her random serial kills?What does a greedy person gain from loving money?These are a few examples of times where you sin not because you 'gain something' but because it is the natural way you are, (by your omnibenevolent God) and for that reason you will be cast to hell.
Simple.
1) Love or feeling of compassion
2) To quench the thirst of the desire
3) Whatever he wants. Power, status, fame, the simple feeling of love anything.
Also it is not my God I am not christian. Also God did any of that. Adam and Eve did and by root cause Satan.
Please list some sins that gain absolutely nothing.
Feeling envious.
Being Anxious.
Feeling ashamed.
Feeling bitter.
Not blessing them that curse you.
Not feeding God's children that are hungry.
I could go on, but I'd be at it all day.
Again. No tree of life or anything like it. So why do you keep saying that you wipl sin if that object or objects like it wont exist up there?
So did the tree make people sin, or did there free will make them?
Satan tempted her. Satan is not in heaven. He doesnt apply. Your statement still isnt applicable.
So satan tempts everyone that does any sin?
2) Sin doesnt exist in heaven.
What is sin?
You wouldnt even want to sin.
People want to be born gay?
People want to feel anxious that their enemies conspire against them?
People want to feel envious that their neighbor has more than them? Obviously not, these are gainless sins that people can't help but have, yet they are sins nonetheless.
If judgement must be 100% just then he must do what he must do thanks to Adam and Eve and humanity.
LOL, that's your argument? When in doubt, babble.
Sin doesnt have a place in heaven.
This is said often enough. Why don't you gain from sin? Are their no emotions in heaven. Is there nothing to feel in Heaven?
With free will comes the ability of right and wrong amd since current earth is polluted with sin we cannot even fathom heaven.
Why would an all loving God fill this planet with sin. If He filled it with sin, he never gave us free will in the start, meaning anyone in heaven was just chosen by him, and you never had the choice to be good or bad from the start, your place was predestined.
You just justified my claim like I was hoping.
In the sins you choose to partake in. in the sins we have that just exist, we don't choose them but they can carry us down to Hell. Explain to me, like it said in the piece you quoted, how envy is something that you gain from?
How do you sin in heaven if sin doesnt exist?
How can he eradicate sin if he never did?
1) Love or feeling of compassion
Is what you said. I said "What does a gay person gain from just loving the person they love?" Not choosing to be with that person. The mere idea of being gay is not a choice, and it certainly has not gain, yet it's a sin. If love or feeling of compassion doesn't exist in Heaven how can it be perfect?
2) To quench the thirst of the desire
Is what you said, what I said was "What does a psychopath gain from his/her random serial kills?" so if he repents, for his mental illness, in Heaven he will be stripped of that desire? That's not free will.
3) Whatever he wants. Power, status, fame, the simple feeling of love anything.
Is what you said, what I said was "What does a greedy person gain from loving money?" Not from getting money, from loving money. If one loves money they are a sinner, yet they did not make a decision to love money they simply had an unfightable urge. If they loved money and repented would they be stripped of that desire in Heaven? Not free will.
You see how this works. To have us 'cleansed' of desires means to strip us of a part of us that likes or wants things, meaning we won't have free will.
Also God did any of that. Adam and Eve did and by root cause Satan.
Ah, the big question. Who made Satan evil? What tempted him?
There will be free will however people will have no reason to be evil and there is no evil in heaven. In regards to the "minor mistakes/sins" thing that the debate description said, there will be no scenarios that put us in positions to make mistakes. Heaven is Perfect.
"If yes, then evil should be possible there. And unless God somehow changes our nature, why wouldn't we continue doing "minor" sins here and there? Just as we do on earth. "
In heaven we will be in our purest form. We will not have evil inside of us. Also, earth is not like heaven b/c there are situations on earth that would not happen in heaven.
This debate is assuming God exists, as well as the following paragraph:
I've frequently heard many christians argue that the reason that evil exists is because of free will. God must give us the choice to do evil, for this is what preserves free will. The ability to choose good or evil.
No way. If he truly believes that heaven will be heavenly, and his rules will be followed with absolute certainty, and no one will kill, and no one will even need to repent, everyone has to be under his control.
If free will even does exist here on Earth, people down here are only good by choice. They could at any time get bored with those good choices and do something worth repenting for, yet in Heaven there is no repentance you've already made up for your sins so now all there is to do is live a good life sin free.
Who's to say you won't get bored up there eventually, for all of eternity I might add, and just decide to do something to cause a little something new. Like maybe go beat up your neighbor, or set a fire, maybe you want to partake in some mixed martial arts, I don't know, whatever it is. The only thing preventing you from doing it, and being casted into hell after already getting into Heaven and making someone else's perfect Heaven not so perfect, is a lack of free will.
Heaven can't be perfect so long as free will exists.
How the hell are we supposed to know that? ... Seriously, it's hard enough to ration out an afterlife let alone be thinking of a free will in heaven. What if this existence was supposed to be heaven but, is now being corrupted by the very entities that have been passively named as demons? ... and because the corruption is so strong, you may even have begun to enjoy it.
Since, I am not free here because of other people; I doubt for those same reasons that heaven could be any different. Hypothetically if it exists.
Also, I believe more so that there is no sin and sinning + the surprise butt sex you can be expecting in hell by fiery hot pitchforks was just a clever device used centuries ago to scare people into being civil. Not, that people who claim to be followers of the doctrine have ANY idea what they are talking about. They can say I take it out of context but, how can you justify a instruction booklet that commands you to kill people by throwing stones at them until they die one minute... Then the next say "Thou shalt not kill".