CreateDebate is a social debate community built around ideas, discussion and democracy.
If this is your first time checking out a debate, here are some quick tips to help get you started:
Arguments with the highest score are displayed first.
Argument replies (both in favor and in opposition) are displayed below the original argument.
To follow along, you may find it helpful to show and hide the replies displayed below each argument.
To vote for an argument, use these icons:
You have the power to cast exactly one vote (either up or down) for each argument.
Once you vote, the icon will become grayed out and the argument's score will change.
Yes, you can change your vote.
Debate scores, side scores and tag scores are automatically calculated by an algorithm that primarily takes argument scores into account.
All scores are updated in real-time.
To learn more about the CreateDebate scoring system, check out the FAQ.
When you are ready to voice your opinion, use the Add Argument button to create an argument.
If you would like to address an existing argument, use the Support and Dispute link within that argument to create a new reply.
Where is the accountability? This is the problem with government, nobody is held accountable for anything including losing $8.7 billion of a $9.1 billion program for Iraq. WHY? Because for the most part, it is not their money, so they are careless with other peoples' money, and the result is missing money.
In the article, not one single person is held accountant to losing $8.7 billion of taxpayer money, not even President Obama. The Obama administration just shrugs their shoulders as to no big deal.
Seriously, how does this happen? The public is told that the smartest and most talented people only work on the most important tasks, yet $8.7 billion is vanishes into thin air.
Where is the accountability? This is the problem with government, nobody is held accountable for anything including losing $8.7 billion of a $9.1 billion program for Iraq. WHY? Because for the most part, it is not their money, so they are careless with other peoples' money, and the result is missing money.
People are fallible, that's why auditing exists and politicians and officers are accountable.
In the article, not one single person is held accountant to losing $8.7 billion of taxpayer money, not even President Obama. The Obama administration just shrugs their shoulders as to no big deal.
Why would Obama be accountable? Some one in the Pentagon was either incompetent or squirreling away some government money. You can bet that the matter is going to be pursued.
Seriously, how does this happen? The public is told that the smartest and most talented people only work on the most important tasks, yet $8.7 billion is vanishes into thin air.
People are fallible, that's why auditing exists and politicians and officers are accountable.
Really, they are held accountable, please any evidence that any bureaucrat was held accountable either fired or criminal charges for incompetence or fraud.
Well, in the private sector, they simply just don't misplace money because it is their own money or company money, so it is important that they know where it is otherwise, they are done.
The Difference...
If a private company loses money, then that is their money and their problem.
When government loses money, THAT IS MY MONEY OR THE PUBLIC'S MONEY, and this is what I have a problem with. THIS IS WHERE THE REAL ACCOUNTABILITY COMES AFFRONT, yet nobody is NAMED, FIRED or DEMOTED for incompetence.
So, when the government misplaced 2.3 trillion dollars in transactions, was it these same fallible people working on this as well. WHO WAS HELD ACCOUNTABLE for that.
"We know it's gone. But we don't know what they spent it on," said Jim Minnery, Defense Finance and Accounting Service.
Was he fired? No.
Why would Obama be accountable?
Maybe, I don't know, LET'S think really hard!!! THINK, THINK, THINK, COME ON, I KNOW YOU CAN DO IT. ALMOST
HE IS THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF!!!!!!!!!
Some one in the Pentagon was either incompetent or squirreling away some government money.
Are you really arguing this point right now because this was my fundamental argument in my last post.
You can bet that the matter is going to be pursued.
PLEASE, one link that the government is actually doing this. Even then they are probably lying.
People are fallible.
Sure, car accidents, hit with a ball at a baseball game, divorce, unexpected babies, missed putt of 4 feet, missed dunked, and etc
These are examples of fallibility.
Government isn't perfect.
You seem to think that it is perfect because you think government can magically preform miracles unilaterally and solve all problems, but they made them all worse.
Really, they are held accountable, please any evidence that any bureaucrat was held accountable either fired or criminal charges for incompetence or fraud.
Well, in the private sector, they simply just don't misplace money because it is their own money or company money, so it is important that they know where it is otherwise, they are done.
In the private sector they traded debt because that was profitable.
When government loses money, THAT IS MY MONEY OR THE PUBLIC'S MONEY, and this is what I have a problem with. THIS IS WHERE THE REAL ACCOUNTABILITY COMES AFFRONT, yet nobody is NAMED, FIRED or DEMOTED for incompetence.
GAO 5:00-7:00
It's MY MONEY! MINE MINE MINE!
So, when the government misplaced 2.3 trillion dollars in transactions, was it these same fallible people working on this as well. WHO WAS HELD ACCOUNTABLE for that.
Why do you think oversight and laws against bribery, extortion, fraud, laundering, slush funds, etc.
If there were none, business and government would collude even more and operate with impunity.
Maybe, I don't know, LET'S think really hard!!! THINK, THINK, THINK, COME ON, I KNOW YOU CAN DO IT. ALMOST
HE IS THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF!!!!!!!!!
So? He wasn't the person who committed the crime, and unless he was directly involved he isn't accountable.
I know! Let's blame Bush for Katrina!
PLEASE, one link that the government is actually doing this. Even then they are probably lying.
It's a simple fact. Rich people love money and 8.7 billion is a lot of it. If our government auditors will hunt you down over a few thousand dollars, you can bet that investigators will comb archives looking for that 8.7 billion.
You seem to think that it is perfect because you think government can magically preform miracles unilaterally and solve all problems, but they made them all worse.
I think government is better at solving social problems than the private sector is, and I have history on my side with this one.
Nice Try, but the refusal of any evidence that bureaucrats are held accountable is still quite unseen. Plus, politicians are held to a higher scrutiny because they are the highest officials in government and are elected. That alone is enough, so it is easier to fire a politician than a bureaucrat. The problem is firing bureaucrats.
It's MY MONEY! MINE MINE MINE!
Seriously, is this an argument.
What you fail to recognize that government possesses no assets, so the money it forces out of people is not actually theirs, so if they are forcefully going to spend the Public's money, they better fucking spend it wisely, but as we have seen, they don't because it is not their money, so why do they care.
Why do you think oversight and laws against bribery, extortion, fraud, laundering, slush funds, etc.
Again, I agree with these laws, and they are great, but who was held accountable for misplacing 2.3 trillion dollars? Nobody. Link would be great.
CBS NEWS The man in the video even admits that his supervisor asked why he cares about finding 300 million dollars.
So? He wasn't the person who committed the crime, and unless he was directly involved he isn't accountable.
Sure, but if the government is going to protect the incompetent or fraud idiots as bureaucrats, the buck must stop somewhere and that is the President.
I know! Let's blame Bush for Katrina!
Sure blame Bush, it took the federal government 6 days to get water to them. Wow, great effectiveness. What did it take Tide to get down there to help people. A couple of days.
If our government auditors will hunt you down over a few thousand dollars, you can bet that investigators will comb archives looking for that 8.7 billion.
Well, if that is the case, there is no evidence to the contrary.
I think government is better at solving social problems than the private sector is, and I have history on my side with this one.
What history is this?
Who said it is either their jobs. It is not. Government's job is to maintain law and enforce order, private companies make profit. People solve social problems.
Nice Try, but the refusal of any evidence that bureaucrats are held accountable is still quite unseen. Plus, politicians are held to a higher scrutiny because they are the highest officials in government and are elected. That alone is enough, so it is easier to fire a politician than a bureaucrat. The problem is firing bureaucrats.
I believe you asked for evidence and I provided it.
What you fail to recognize that government possesses no assets, so the money it forces out of people is not actually theirs, so if they are forcefully going to spend the Public's money, they better fucking spend it wisely, but as we have seen, they don't because it is not their money, so why do they care.
You made a rant basically about it being your money. My serious response is that if you care about this so deeply, be a diligent American who watches for poor spending and hold the politicians accountable by gathering like-minded people and following the proper channels. Don't be a tool that just yells "Government charity bad! My money!"
Again, I agree with these laws, and they are great, but who was held accountable for misplacing 2.3 trillion dollars? Nobody. Link would be great.
This, you mean? The information seemed vague. Was it wasted or lost?
Sure, but if the government is going to protect the incompetent or fraud idiots as bureaucrats, the buck must stop somewhere and that is the President.
It doesn't work that way.
Sure blame Bush, it took the federal government 6 days to get water to them. Wow, great effectiveness. What did it take Tide to get down there to help people. A couple of days.
Bush isn't the Federal Government. That was my point.
Well, if that is the case, there is no evidence to the contrary.
I take it from reading that part of the problem is authority and matters of jurisdiction. Tracking trillions of dollars in military spending isn't easy because that is often very secret data, so only some people may be privy to it.
What history is this?
Civil rights, women's suffrage, job safety, unemployment coverage, medical aid to the poor and elderly, literacy rates improved, FDA, etc.
Who said it is either their jobs. It is not. Government's job is to maintain law and enforce order, private companies make profit. People solve social problems.
I believe you asked for evidence and I provided it.
The first man was fired not because of incompetence or fraud. It was e-mails.
The second guy was fired not because of incompetence nor fraud either. The guy didn't pay his fee.
Shirley Sherrord was not fired over incompetence or fraud, yet racism, and she was offered her job back.
You made a rant basically about it being your money.
So, just because the government takes my mony or my neighbor's money, do you think it is your money or impoverished people. No, I earned it. Again, if the government is going to take the public's money, they better know where it is. Actually, I am not a tool, I am active in the Libertarian party. Maybe you are the tool.
This, you mean? The information seemed vague. Was it wasted or lost?
In the article, it says "More money for the Pentagon, CBS News Correspondent Vince Gonzales reports, while its own auditors admit the military cannot account for 25 percent of what it spends."
This means 25% of the budget, they don't even know what they are spending on.
THEN
It says "According to some estimates we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions," Rumsfeld admitted."
This means the defense department doesn't know or unaccounted for the money. It is lost or simply missing in what they buy.
Bush isn't the Federal Government. That was my point.
Yet he was in charge of the Federal Government. That is my point.
All of those mistakes were imposed by bureaucrats involving terrorism, oil spill and AIG Bonuses.
Civil rights, women's suffrage, job safety, unemployment coverage, medical aid to the poor and elderly, literacy rates improved, FDA, etc.
Those would have come without government in a truly democratic and free society. The reason that they didn't come about without government was because of GOVERNMENT LAWS.
Government is people
Is there an argument here? Businesses are people, nonprofit are people.
The first man was fired not because of incompetence or fraud. It was e-mails.
The second guy was fired not because of incompetence nor fraud either. The guy didn't pay his fee.
Shirley Sherrord was not fired over incompetence or fraud, yet racism, and she was offered her job back.
You wanted examples of government being held accountable for fraud, corruption. I provided that. You moved the goalpost and demanded bureaucrats instead be held accountable, which I did. Now you move the goalpost yet again. Try researching this yourself.
So, just because the government takes my mony or my neighbor's money, do you think it is your money or impoverished people. No, I earned it. Again, if the government is going to take the public's money, they better know where it is. Actually, I am not a tool, I am active in the Libertarian party. Maybe you are the tool.
I agree that misplaced funds should be found and the appropriate people held accountable, but it is not your money. That is the point.
The Libertarian Party is a tool for business. It's a special interest group which has the smokescreen of liberty but actively pursues policies which only benefit business. If you cared about personal liberty you would be liberal, if you cared about small government you might be conservative, if you care about business liberty and lack of personal responsibility towards society then you are libertarian (why else defend segregation, sweatshops, child labour, removing the FDA, OSHA, unions, minimum wage, clean environment regulations, etc.). I'm betting that people are drawn towards libertarianism because of the promise of personal liberty during a time when the majority parties have fallen from their ideals, and libertarianism offers a third-party position that allows for criticism of both these parties without fear of being ostracised by your own party. The trouble is that like a typical investor, after being drawn in by the sales pitch and invested in time and effort, you'd rather take some of the bad than lose the investment and begin again. This is why libertarians run the gamut of moderates who just want personal liberty (the initiates) to the crazy people who want segregation and sweatshops (those who were initiates but bought little by little into the ideology and now need to maintain ideological purity in order to justify the very liberty that made them buy into it in the first place).
This means 25% of the budget, they don't even know what they are spending on.
THEN
It says "According to some estimates we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions," Rumsfeld admitted."
This means the defense department doesn't know or unaccounted for the money. It is lost or simply missing in what they buy.
We live in a bureaucracy, there are papers recording where the money went it's just that these are mostly secret documents due to security clearance. That's how big government works.
Yet he was in charge of the Federal Government. That is my point.
Doesn't mean he is accountable. The peons who were directly in charge of Katrina are responsible.
Actually, it does. What reality do you live in?
You hold the person who was directly involved with the deed responsible. Not the super-authority.
Those would have come without government in a truly democratic and free society.
In a utopia you mean? Life isn't ideologically perfect and it is not ideal. Get over that and re-evaluate my rebuttal.
The reason that they didn't come about without government was because of GOVERNMENT LAWS.
The reason it didn't evolve in the private sector is that the private sector was far more concerned with business than social health. That's how life works.
Is there an argument here? Businesses are people, nonprofit are people.
You seem to think that authority makes you perfect. Government makes you all-knowing and all wise, therefore when you (government) fail it is out of malice. Likewise you think of businessmen as god-like authorities who are the best of society, so any success must be due to their all-knowing foresight.
It's a blindness on your part caused by evidence and information bias. The conclusions are that business is great and government is evil, and the evidence that you see will always pass through that filter because it is an unconscious action. This is why you accuse me of treating government as gods, because in your mind, they kind of are (in the sense of being devils).
You wanted examples of government being held accountable for fraud, corruption. I provided that. You moved the goalpost and demanded bureaucrats instead be held accountable, which I did. Now you move the goalpost yet again.
No, I wanted examples of bureaucrat incompetence and fraud from the beginning. Instead, you provided emails, racism and failure to pay.
Lets Review
I wrote: "please any evidence that any bureaucrat was held accountable either fired or criminal charges for incompetence or fraud."
Try researching this yourself.
Why? There is no evidence, and you proved that.
I agree that misplaced funds should be found and the appropriate people held accountable, but it is not your money. That is the point.
If none of it is not mine, where does the money come from? What is it's source?
The Libertarian Party is a tool for business...
Blah, Blah, Blah, more Extremist delusional rhetoric. I can't believe that I read that again.
We live in a bureaucracy, there are papers recording where the money went it's just that these are mostly secret documents due to security clearance. That's how big government works.
Government doesn't need to be that big.
Doesn't mean he is accountable. The peons who were directly in charge of Katrina are responsible.
If so, why are they never named. Is it because they have secret budgets and missions like the Defense Department.
You hold the person who was directly involved with the deed responsible. Not the super-authority.
We know this rarely happens.
In a utopia you mean? Life isn't ideologically perfect and it is not ideal. Get over that and re-evaluate my rebuttal.
Life isn't all roses and pie provided by an all benevolent and altruistic government. You should get over that.
Life isn't utopia, and never said that it was. Life is hard.
Hong Kong and Sinapore exist with Laissez-faire economic policy, and both has risen to the 6th wealthiest and 5th wealthiest nations based on GDP per capita within 50 years because of economic freedom, imagine if both had political freedom.
The reason it didn't evolve in the private sector is that the private sector was far more concerned with business than social health. That's how life works.
Why do you assume that I mean private sector? Those would have come about over time with people just being people through tolerance.
You seem to think that authority makes you perfect. Government makes you all-knowing and all wise, therefore when you (government) fail it is out of malice. Likewise you think of businessmen as god-like authorities who are the best of society, so any success must be due to their all-knowing foresight.
Government failing is not out of malice, it is out of inevitability, yet you can't see it, and history shows this over and over again, because man is fallible, and you said it yourself, and when few men central plan, there is always unforeseen unintended consequences. For example, minimum wage created an set standard of skills, in which if you didn't meet government standards, you are unemployable and on welfare.
It is really unsettling and arrogant that you think you know more about my beliefs than I do myself.
The fact remains I don't worship businessmen or business as gods. I only worship golf as my god. I simply belief that wo/men should beble a to live their life freely within reasonable means of voluntary contracts, free markets, and responsible small government.
Businessmen don't have all knowing foresight just as either does government.
Free market substitute central planning by simply using the knowledge of rational minds together without consciousness.
It's a blindness on your part caused by evidence and information bias.
The blindness is clearly on your side.
The conclusions are that business is great and government is evil, and the evidence that you see will always pass through that filter because it is an unconscious action.
No, government is not evil, government is a necessary evil. Business is great, but no god, and it creates wealth. America's freedom has created the greatest wealth of all of humanity.
If none of it is not mine, where does the money come from? What is it's source?
When you gave that money away in the form of taxes it ceased being your money.
Blah, Blah, Blah, more Extremist delusional rhetoric. I can't believe that I read that again.
Truth hurts.
Government doesn't need to be that big.
So you don't want paper trails, or you want a lack of security.
If so, why are they never named. Is it because they have secret budgets and missions like the Defense Department.
It lost profitability to cover that story. That's how the market works with news.
Life isn't all roses and pie provided by an all benevolent and altruistic government. You should get over that.
Life isn't utopia, and never said that it was. Life is hard.
Exactly why we need government to stick up for our downtrodden people. Life is hard, and just like the bill of rights if you don't enumerate a right for a person it will probably cease to exist at some point.
Hong Kong and Sinapore exist with Laissez-faire economic policy, and both has risen to the 6th wealthiest and 5th wealthiest nations based on GDP per capita within 50 years because of economic freedom, imagine if both had political freedom.
I want to live where sweatshops and child labour/prostitution exist.
Why do you assume that I mean private sector? Those would have come about over time with people just being people through tolerance.
You're Captain Private Business, that's why. But to answer your statement it clearly would not, because that's why the government had to intervene in the first place. We left it to people for centuries and what we got was a very unfair society. I can't believe you even espouse this view, it's as if you have a Disney view on human nature.
Government failing is not out of malice, it is out of inevitability, yet you can't see it, and history shows this over and over again, because man is fallible, and you said it yourself, and when few men central plan, there is always unforeseen unintended consequences. For example, minimum wage created an set standard of skills, in which if you didn't meet government standards, you are unemployable and on welfare.
Which is a step up from working sixteen-hour days as an illiterate who is malnourished. There are no perfect solutions, but there are ways to improve living conditions.
Whatever libertarian party rhetoric you can quote against minimum wage (which is really about trying to keep business greed somewhat in check), it all descends from the LP position that property is more sacred than human life and suffering, and so any attempt to remove a person from his property, no matter how rational, is a mortal sin.
It is really unsettling and arrogant that you think you know more about my beliefs than I do myself.
I pay attention and your whole demeanor comes off like an Evangelist, steeped in Good (Market) versus Evil (Government) thinking, and those who are against you are always against freedom. You lack perceptiveness, that is your huge downfall, that you cannot place yourself in other peoples' shoes understand their motivations.
I actually enjoy reading you because I've learned a lot about the Libertarian mindset from you. I used to think you guys were just wide-eyed idealists but your black and white thinking and narcissism is very revealing.
The fact remains I don't worship businessmen or business as gods. I only worship golf as my god. I simply belief that wo/men should beble a to live their life freely within reasonable means of voluntary contracts, free markets, and responsible small government.
You believe in creating conditions for rampant exploitation, suffering, inequality and poverty. I already know this. I've asked so many questions to clarify your position on this and you honestly seem to believe that people behave en mass like your idealistic libertarian individualist. People do not, however, so you're really just setting the stage as it was centuries ago in America and so it must be that government will once again grow to fill a need which is citizens' demand of stronger protection from exploitation by the wealthy.
Businessmen don't have all knowing foresight just as either does government.
Free market substitute central planning by simply using the knowledge of rational minds together without consciousness.
Replace rational with selfish amoral and you will have a better understanding of why it fails. I was joking with my friend a week ago about this actually, the free market. The joke is that yes, the market solves everything, and its solution was (by demand of consumers) to become a regulated market with a socialist-leaning government. You have to be detached from party politics to appreciate the humour.
No, I wanted examples of bureaucrat incompetence and fraud from the beginning. Instead, you provided emails, racism and failure to pay.
Lets Review
I wrote: "please any evidence that any bureaucrat was held accountable either fired or criminal charges for incompetence or fraud."
I found bureaucrats and politicians fired for various misdeeds. It's hard to find this stuff because apparently the news headlines rarely find it worth mentioning.
There should be some accountability and more efforts to make sure that taxpayer money doesn't go missing in the future.
I would also like to point out that money from the federal budget goes "missing" each year. That is to say it goes to the "black" budgets of the Air Force, the CIA, the Pentagon, etc.
