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Did Jesus do anything extraordinary?
So for the sake of argument let's pretend the bible, God and Jesus and everything is true.
Why is Jesus so extraordinary just because he sacrificed himself? Don't people sacrifice themselves every single day? And if you were a decent human being who were told that you would save the entire human race from Hell by simply sacrificing yourself, wouldn't you do it in a heartbeat? Maybe not, but I as a parent would not hesitate, and I doubt I would if I weren't a parent.
So if you're not convinced yet, please let me keep your attention a bit longer.
Jesus knew that he would rise again three days later - It was in the prophesies of the old testament, plus Jesus is all knowing, so he couldn't have not known.
If you would not sacrifice your life - would you have a problem with sacrificing THREE FUCKING DAYS of your life to save the entire human race from Hell?
So I guess my question is.. why was the sacrifice of Jesus so extraordinary? I don't think it was that big a sacrifice. People go through far worse torture every day.
Jesus fought the temptation he received from the devil who promised him all the riches on the world. He would have been a high ruler in hell , but he chose death to save his people. Jesus was all knowing because he was the Son of God, created from the holy spirit. So even though he knew what had to be done, he still had free will to do as he pleased, so in my eyes that is extraordinary. Turning down a life of riches and fame for a life of persecution.
Jesus is God and assuming God is real then he's the king of all - why would such a person bow to another for goods they could give themselves? Since he's omnipotent there is nothing stopping him from fame and wealth
Exactly he is omnipotent but as a human maybe he was under the same temptations that man was. So even though he knew what had to be done he was in a human form who possibly couldn't just give his people freedom because he didnt want them as slaves. Why else would the devil tempt him if he didnt have a chance to convince him. He knew Jesus was a man and any man can be tempted
But did he do anything that many people don't go through every day? I mean, he was tortured - so are thousands of people - he was sacrificed himself, so do a lot of other people today.
Think about how much he would've wanted to save his beloved people and to follow him, this would've have been very easy if he sided with the devil and removed free will. We were created to follow him but after we ate the apple we were given sin. So he created a world that needed to be fix or at least save people from their sins. In the only way to do this was by sacrificing his most beloved son in human form so they could be free from sin.
Assuming he was real. He did more for us than just die on the cross to save us, although that is plenty enough. He taught, he encouraged people to forgive, he brought miracle, love and wonder to people who needed it and brought peace. Helped a blind man to see, fed communities. To say he did nothing extraordinary is like saying a person who runs into a building on fire to save a child but lost his life in the process, did nothing extraordinary. To try to detract from his achievements in an attempt to downplay what he brought to us, kind of shows an ignorance on the matter. This is of course assuming that he was real as you have in your debate.
What? He's the founder, or considered the founder, of the Islamic religion, gathered thousands of men and marched on Mecca to reclaim it, united several smaller tribes into a single unit... Whether you agree with what he did or not, he certainly is worth remembering. If not religiously, historically he's a fairly large figure in Islamic culture.
Jesus healed the sick, changed people's lives, blessed everyone and anyone who chooses to believe in him. You dont call that extraordinary? You better check the plank in your eye than pick on a splinter in another person's eye.
I realize that - however wouldn't just about anyone do that? I mean any decent human being would save humanity - what makes Jesus' actions so special and amazing.
I don't know, I'm just saying this because I was raised in a christian family, and in church and stuff they went on and on about the incredible sacrifice of Jesus and ... I guess I just don't see it.
You make sound like that is something extraordinary yet people go through unbelievable torture and even death to keep national secrets. It is not uncommon to sacrifice yourself for .. whatever.
He was extraordinary so he did extraordinary things. He expressed on his abilities.
Now you're saying, but wait, he was extraordinary! So he did ordinary things! That's what makes no sense.
It wasn't his duty. He made the choice freely.
Many of his disciples were severely punished. Those that chose to believe him. Yet you seem to say that it is perfectly normal to let those that love you be crucified, burned and hunted for sake of those doing the deed.
That's funny.
Would you let me do that to your loved ones if I convince you that it'll be good for others, including me?
He did. And those he loved crucified him. They even crucified and burned other people who loved him back.
Yet, he didn't hate any of them.
On the other hand, if I were to do this to those that love you (you will, of course, get to see them running and jumping like little monkeys, and the horrific deaths), and if you used to love me before, would you continue to do so?
That doesn't explain why the bible writes as if Jesus' death was something incredibly extraordinary when he didn't do anything that someone else has never done before.
No I'm just saying what he did wasn't extraordinary. Not that if it would if he was tortured more or whatever - he was simply not an extraordinary person. Period.
He did. And those he loved crucified him. They even crucified and burned other people who loved him back.
Yet, he didn't hate any of them.
On the other hand, if I were to do this to those that love you (you will, of course, get to see them running and jumping like little monkeys, and the horrific deaths), and if you used to love me before, would you continue to do so?
This does not have any correlation to this argument haha and when your loved ones sin and do not seek god in there heart they will do that. They will burn for there poor choices when they had plenty of opportunity to make them right. I am not one to say who goes and does not go to hell I do know many will.
I will most certainly not be laughing or enjoying anyone going to hell, well I lie, I take that back there are many evil people I wouldn't mind see burn as we all do I am sure. In fact one of the few if not only things I disagree with in the bible is when it says that on the day everyone is judged that no one will cry, I belive I will for seeing the damned that i have known and come to love in my time on earth. I am negating that jesus in anyway is wrong for sending people to hell.
I think you're wrong only in so far as you granted what if everything the Bible says is true. By granting that you are acknowledging a God went through excruciating death and rebirth for the sake of all humanity.
The better argument for he didn't do anything extraordinary would be to compare the evidence in the Bible with the standards we hold for evidence today...
The story of the virgin birth really only would hold up under real medical evidence. Second hand stories, or eye witnesses who are part of the group benefitting from the claim, would not persuade us today.
The exact same could be said for the "miracles".
The exact same could be said for rising from the dead.
And heck, just look at the wealth of misinformation or outright lies which make their rounds today and persuade millions of people to follow something or not. It's very very easy to spin a tale and get a handful of people also in on it to say heck yes. It's easy to scam. And it's indeed possible that the trumped up claims of the Bible are just that - a scam perpetrated by the founders of a new religion trying desperately to survive persecution while also advancing their religion above and beyond the more established ones of their day.
This is mostly illogical. Here is a crazy dynamic written by a culture where men are of greater importance than women.
So 4 guys accidentally described that Jesus in many speeches told disciples He was going to be killed and raised in 3 days.
You have comments of Jesus expressing disappointmennt in these men falling asleep, "flesh is weak," scattering in fear while the women boldly didnt leave and hide, and even after telling them He will raise in 3 days, He was specific, 3 days.
And recorded after not being awake with Him in His hour of need, a woman was there and not one of these bozos knew to go and hang out and watch the tomb open.
And even the woman went to seal the deal with her herb garden.
Is it likely they would have made themselves so unattentive to His word that He told them over and over again?
And there is more.
The culture itself was ridiculously precise by 5 proof reader for every small section coppied.
Isaiah in dead sea scrolls proves that compared to modern translatioms! Did Jews suddenly get liberated in their attention to writing down things. Obviously not. Isaiah is proof of that.
Now the dilemma of what does Jesus have to do with the Old Testament. Well you could just use Isaiah to know enough about Jesus. Yet over 400 Old Testament scriptures are fulfilled by Him. Including many things it would not have been reasonably possible for any or even all of those men to orchestrate.
Like Romans crufifying Him. And even the date is foretold!
And then the comparisons gospel to gospel are full of confirmation of eyewitnesses. Not by what they wrote the same, but by what the wrote different.
Each tell of it from prespective of placement. And those are consistent by their standing in a soecific place.
In other words for example, Luke tells of the crucifixtion from a distance and on the right. Matthew tells of it as if in the far left of a noisy insulting crowd, John tells of it as one hearing His conversations, not by His screaming out that the crowd could hear, and Mark tells of it as near the road on the outskirts of the crowd.
And the whole account matches their prespective by their location within the days events.
So because of these inconsistencies they would show reliable eyewitness verbal or wtittwn accounts. Because conspiracy would bounce around in inconsistency of where they were standing.
When you take decades to write your story about something, as well as you personally know the other people also writing about it, you can as a group shape it into anything you want.
But its historically an inaccurate statement. And it is also illogical.
Other secular and Jews also wrote of the Jesus dynamics that wouldnt seem to die under any weight or force of persecution.
So true reputable historians actually authenticate the documents, and they are accepted by any true to field professionalism historicans. The bs you glean from the internet are blogs by so called experts with just nonsense.
If you want truth you will get to the bottom of it. If you dont, youll pick the ones that reflect your own thoughts. Your in bad company, the "religious" do the same. Pick what sounds right in their own eyes, without going beyond the junk files to get to the actual truth.
Honestly the only thing that negatively effected the true faith of Christians, not the religious people wolves in sheeps clothing who hijacked the faith for self promotion in the world, but the most damaging to the truth of the fauth was comfort and apathy.
Apathy was the only effective tool used against the church that actually accomplished the apostacy of many.
Religion is more often than not hardened to the voice of the Spirit and in understanding the Bible.
Fyi - Jesus chose the rebels. Because rebels are genuine.
We rarely conform to being "religious." Because being genuine is important to us.
He can work with genuine. But Religious people He cant.
Revelation actually says He "stands at the door" of a church knocking, and they wont let Him in.
They stifle Him by their man made doctrines.
That's why I post the crazy things I post. Many of those in religion need to hear the simple just do it, and take what He says as truth, which many have hardened their hearts to, and they dont really listen and follow the real Jesus that is written plainly and simply in the word.
Religions exist to explain away the Gospel of Jesus, and hold to an outward religious form in its place.
So Jesus ends up knocking on the door outside the churches. As the shepherds leading the flock lead them astray by not teaching the simple following of Christ.
My posts often direct people to find truth for themselves and judge what they are taught by what is in their hand.
So I am picky because I have truth of Jesus in my hand and His Spirit within to discern fruit and truth.
I encourage people who honestly love light and Jesus to stick with the one Jesus written of in the Gospels, and rip up their doctrines of men.
Every revival was led by religious rebels that rejected doctrines of men, and proclaimed the simple following of what is written.
But then every move of revival gets hijacked by religions packaging God.
You cant package God in a box.
Look at how deep just those 2 scriptures are in Gen 1 and John 1
Ive had religious people accuse of numerology. Thats because they dont understand the Judaism of our faith.
When you understand that, it opens up everything like a key to a secret diary.
There are keys to understand. And the Holy Spirit is the key of keys!
And He comes in and has many jobs so to speak. One of them is to unlock understanding of the word.
God is seen in many ways in science especially in quantum physics.
Below is a good video on God in all of the digitalization of our entire universe.
The Bible is proven in every direction. After reviewing evidence upon evidence it actually unreasonable to say it doesnt stand alone as pile high mounting evidence.
Well, let's see. Every week, it seems, we hear of somebody sacrificing themselves for "GOD", or for the "betterment" of some cause. That makes them a martyr to that cause. Nothing unusual, Jesus was a martyr to HIS cause (allegedly). Only those who believe in his cause (or how THEY interpret "his cause"), hold him as a martyr .... as they do today.
I believe a MAN named Jesus lived. Most of his (alleged) principles I agree with, and admire. I even call them my own. IF ... he died for his principles, and IF said principles are "as written", I admire the man, a man of principle, like many today, .... but they seem to be getting fewer when we need them most.
First if you do not belvie the bible my argument here has no merit this is purely based upon the bible. Extraordinary defines as "beyond what is usual, ordinary, regular, or established" Making the blind see and making baskets full of food in which were hardly full to begin with, I define as beyond the usual. So by definition he did do many extraordinary things.
But the bible goes on and on about this incredible sacrifice - that's what I'm questioning - why was this such a sacrifice when ordinary people go through the same and even worse stuff every single day?
Please provide sources for this. I'm curious to see where ordinary people get tortured and crucified by the people they are dying to save. And not just their tormentors but everyone else in the world.
Again, this is all speculating that he is real. My personal belief in Jesus or his role aside, I'm curious to see where you are coming from with this.
Reading up on it, curious as to what it has to do with the topic at hand. Are you suggesting that those who died, did so for our sins? Martyrs some may be, but not of Christ-like proportion. Not to mention there is some question about the book as well.
Ah I see, it was close so I could see the confusion. No I was saying " I'm curious to see where ordinary people get tortured and crucified by the people they are dying to save." But like I said, I can see where the miscommunication was.
1 - He was innocent, and willingly took on punishment of judgment for sin. He was light that entered darkness. Man was on death row already. His involvement has held back evil, and made the world have some goodness of light and salt. Everythime God doesnt hold evil back we see people like Hitler.
All of us have the propensity to great evil. Light influences man to reach to be better, even the non-Christians are influenced.
Today we see the increase of evil, God is letting go of the restraints. To complete His final purpose. God would not be fair nor just if He were willing to leave even one of His own unsaved. Not even one of those He knows, basic rules of time travel guys, will be His will be left to perish.
2 - The actual event of the cross, The Son never experienced being broken from the one Spirit of God. So when He says He was the bread broken for us, you need to understand mans brokeness that Christ was broken for us to be restored.
Brokeness from God, and also broken as wandering lost spirits disembodied at the return of dust to the ground at death. Which at the end He will restore to all.
3 - In total victory He bought the dust back.
4 - The restoration it brought was cleansing through the work of the cross, through which Jesus could send the Spirit to dwell with us and in us.
5 - Immanuel, God with us, walked among us, in our flesh nature, overcoming it in perfection for 33.5 years, as well as nailing it to a tree.
But Immanuel also has another significance, God's Spirit with us, imparted to dwell within us. That is only possible through the cleansing work of the cross. He couldnt dwell in us without the purification we can partake of through the cross.
So His life and also His death is unique.
6 - Literally God's only Son was seeded into a Virgin in the all man and yet all God , and in pure lineage, to walk as God, in the holiness of God, while living life as a man, in the weak flesh of a man.
7 - Which He subjected the flesh of man to His will in perfection, and He then marched it to the cross, and nail it down. He also did significant work in the three days, He wasn't taking a nap!
8 - And then of course overcame death also in the Resurection.
Attack? I was just opening up for discussion, take a chill pill. If your faith was strong enough it should tolerate attacks without calling people morons with caps.
I call a bigot a bigot. I will call any person who attack's another's faith, for no good reason, A MORON!
Christians are not murdering people. We don't care what you do in your bedrooms!
We are the ones helping the poor through charity. We speak out on the right of life for those children who can not speak out on their own behalf. We speak out against people who abandon their children for tax payers to support.
Yet insecure people like you must always try to denouce our Christian faith as a fairy tale believed by weak people.
Those who attack other's beiefs are the weak insecure people.
ok, your rant has absolutely nothing to do with the topic so Ill just ignore it. However Im interested in debating religion, Ive always been, and if you feel threatened by that then Im sorry but you are of course welcome to stay the hell away from debates you dont like.
