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Boobs is banned because he can't admit that the list of "historians" he references is bogus. I argued this with him and while he partly conceded, he could not give up and found more and more ways of twisting reasoning to ignore the obvious deceptive nature of the list of "historians" he uses as "proof" that real Roman historians who referred to Christ and Christians were liars. Common sense shows who the liars are, and who the fools who believe the liars are. That list of 100 "historians" is easily shown to be bogus. Boobs threw it in as a huge distraction and disruption avoiding talking about the points in the video. If you are not going to watch the video and refer to the points in the video in your discussion, you may be banned for being disruptive; and the first time I see ANYBODY use profanity in any form here, they will be banned.
Actually I completely agree that he physically existed and I think the evidence on that is compelling.
The discrepancy to me is the accuracy of what his disciples reported years after his death. But that isn't the point of this stream of videos so let's put that aside.
Yes. Jesus of Nazareth, aka Jesus Christ, was a living person.
Thank you for recognizing that veracity of the eyewitness accounts of the New Testament is not part of this discussion. It is natural for unbelievers to discount certain parts of the witness testimonies, especially the parts about the deity of Christ, His bodily resurrection, and His emphatic warnings about the reality of Hell's fire condemning sinners. Those three points have always been the issue of unbelievers. This thing about changing history into myths is a recent and silly development.
And by the way, Jesus's disciples reported His resurrection immediately when they saw Him alive. Under constant threat of death from Jewish religious authorities who forbid teaching in Jesus' name, it was not easy to make and pass along a written account. The account of Jesus' resurrection started three days after He was buried, not thirty or sixty years later. Jews spreading Jesus' message in spite of torture and execution were not doing it for nothing, and much less would they start doing it long after the fact with a made up story which only brought excommunication from Jewish society and fear of or reality of tortuous persecution.
You are approaching from a biased position in which you blind yourself from seeing the truth because you know if you believe the gospel, then Jesus owns your life and you don't want to lose it......so you try to keep if for yourself and all you are doing is losing it and you will be lost forever in Hell if you will not repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Nope, I look at it without any fear at all, which is why your threats of going to hell never phase me, and which is what allows me to see the angers and fears of living men in the way the disciples wrote their stories.
But remember, this debate was only about whether Jesus lived. Debating what his disciples wrote later is off topic. I thought you were one of those adamant we must always stay on topic or be banned?
I think I can tolerate some off topic here, but I don't see much point in arguing with you about your unbelief. You have presuppositions which are not open to questioning, and I'm really not interested in your excuses (I'm sure you will say "reasons") for not believing. There is no excuse and I really don't want to hear yours....not in this discussion.
As long as your acting as you are like you understand good manners, I'm not going to ban you. I think we've had enough of your reasons for not believing here. My objective here is to get people who have actually considered the "myth" concepts of Christ to look at the evidence and discuss the facts. The four videos referenced do a good job of spelling out most reasons for skepticism regarding the historical figure of Jesus being the same Jesus who is the focal character of the New Testament (He is also the focal character of the Old Testament, and often pointed to places it directly mentions Him as well as blanket statements that the Old Testament pointed to Him.
You can respond to points I make here, that's all I ask from people that they converse with me and not go off in all different directions as if they are the owners of the discussion and then they cry when I show them who is really the boss in my discussions.
I don't see any anger or fear in the writers of the New Testament. Maybe in some of the characters who opposed Jesus like the Pharisees, scribes, and Sadducees who hated Jesus and feared losing control of their religion......and Pontius Pilate whose wife had a frightening dream in which she was warned of God and told Pilate to have nothing to do with Jesus. She sure was afraid, and Pilate was quite nervous, trying to excuse himself by washing his hands and claiming to be innocent of the blood of Christ.
I pre-banned several people who have a hard time showing any manners. You were not on that list as you have been acting better with me and I appreciate that. Anybody who is going to come in being disrespectful toward me is likely to get banned, and I expect the same treatment when I am belligerent as I often am in some of the debates and discussions I find just too stupid or offensive that I should care if I get banned.
That would be quite a trick forJesus to fullfil every detail in all the prophesies foretold of the expected Messiah to such accuracy.
Every aspect - His birth place, His infant escape to Egypt, oh and related to that, is the prophesy of the deaths of the babies by Herod.
So He would have had to orchestrate that at 2, or His parents did, but I doubt they had any pull or clout with Herod to have pulled that off!
His physical attributes and mannerisms, the visit from the wise men, the Manger, oh and the forced travel near time of birth to Bethlehem required by a decree of Roman rule, in order to register populous in families home of origins.
Then He would have had to openly fulfil every prophesy in His visual ministry, Yet, be hidden enough so the Pharisees didn't make any connections to the scriptures they had memorized, as well as hidden from the general public, who also had the scriptures memorized.
So He would have had to have been everything they Should Have, and Would Have Expected from Prophesies, YET, hidden enough that they would have rejected Him. So He would have had to control responses of unwilling participants from Herod to the Pharisees to the general Jewish public.
Because it's foretold, they'd reject their Messiah, thus forcing the gospel out to the Gentiles, and to every Nation.
So not only all of what the prophets foretold of Him, but also orchestrate every one else, including the actions and responses of all the willing, and all of the unwilling participants.
So Jesus would have had to have been extremely talented to work these details such as their rejection, Judas' betrayal with a kiss, his silver coins payment, his distress after, and even the field the Pharisees bought with the coins he through back in quilt, and then his suicide.
He would have had to pre-plan Roman Soldiers, Pontius Pilate, the brutal beating whipping, and maybe He requested the crown of thorns, the spear in His side, and maybe He made a special agreement of cooperation if they promised not to break His legs like they did all the criminals crucified, so that every detail was accounted for. Oh and He probably orchestrated being in the middle of two crucified criminals that day instead of being on the end, and instead of being one of 5 on that particular day. And I guess He made a deal they'd release Barabas a murderer as He scripted the mob against Him.
Then striking the Shepherd, the sheep were scattered. I guess when He told Peter about his denial 3 times before the rooster crowed, He was really instructing them to behave like scared rabbits and scatter.
Then the after, that He'd be given a tomb by a rich guy, and of course have His body stolen.
And all that scattered would be bold to their deaths, after being chicken. And emboldened by a stolen core, not a Risen Savior.
So then He orchestrated the severe persecutions after, and the martyrs. Which they went to their deaths, and not just the 11, many who saw and followed, they endured lions, stoning, beheadings, prison, loss of loved ones all for a conspiracy orchestrated by Jesus.
Then, with all that, it grew and grew pushed out from the Jews, to all the Gentiles, and out to every Nation, every nationality, yet remained rejected by Jews as a whole as told in prophesies.
And then He planned all the false prophets and misrepresentations of His message as prophesied, or I guess uoud say duh, that was bound to happen.
So all these things were foretold, and I dont know which would need a greater miracle ... Jesus orchestrating all that, it it all being true and He is who He said He is.
Did a guy called Jesus exist? more than likely, was he the son of god not a chance, he was an opportunist who managed to convince people of a lie he concocted, this lie managed to snowball with the extreme length of self sacrifice and story's spun by his followers, he was a liar and a con artist. in fact he's that good of a con artist there's still people here today who believe his story's.
That does not make sense. If they remained loyal followers after Jesus was crucified, they would be excommunicated from Jewish society and face the same fate Jesus suffered, tortuous execution. There was nothing to gain and everything to lose in following Jesus.
And if you think the Jews were going to allow the body to be taken, that's nonsense. The killed Him and knew His claims that He would rise from the dead, and if they could not keep the body as evidence their control over the Jewish religion would be threatened. The tomb was guarded and sealed, and under Roman law any soldier who failed to perform his duty and allowed a breach of order was to be put to death. They knew things were out of control because the soldiers told them it was an angel who rolled the stone way from the door of the tomb, frightening them practically to death. They knew what happened, and the Jewish leaders paid huge sums of money to the guards to say the disciples stole the body while they slept and were prepared to pay off the Roman authorities over those guards if word got to them that the body was missing. You have to be dumb to believe the lies of the Jews against Christ.........and since you are believing the lies so easily, it is obvious that yo are pretty much oblivious to the facts of history.
with all due respect Saintnow, historical facts arnt always facts, twisted and manipulated over time to suit the story teller, I would give anything to have a time machine and you would be my first passenger, I admire your faith and passion for it, but im afraid it blinds you from accepting any information which contradicts your belief.
Historical facts aren't facts except if you believe in evolution? How can I accept information which has no basis in reality? You are approaching things from a stand point of ingnorance, not looing into the history to examine the facts for yourself. All you are doing it throwing out possibilities which when examined have no basis in reality and no reason to be believed. The scenarios you say are true because they are possible do not make sense in light of the circumstantial evidence. The "information" you provide is not information, it's baseless accusations. If you want real information, you have to look at things realistically and examine the evidence. You are not being realistic, you are not examining the evidence to see if the things you believe are true. You just want to believe what you believe and really don't care if your beliefs are true or not. You cannot substantiate one thing you are saying.
Historical facts are facts. If the story was changed, it's lies. Here is a cold case homicide who was an atheist for 35 years, who never lost a case investigating historical facts to bring convictions in cold case homicide, and was intrigued when he read the Bible, so he investigated the murder and claims of Jesus Christ, and the stories of His resurrection, thinking he would prove it untrue.
Saintnow take a look at what you have just written and apply that to your faith, its in complete contrast to what you do, if you applied this attitude in your day to day life you might start seeing the massive holes and lack of facts any religion has to offer.
I don't just want to believe in what I believe in I have to be convince to believe what I believe and religion failed to do that to me even when it was shoved down my neck at a young age!
And I've not provided you with information more a personal perspective and opinion.
So you got your feelings hurt and you set up a wall in your mind trying to block God out because you are angry at your parents? At that is why you act so obstinate when I try to get you to listen enough that you can carry on a conversation with me?
How can you be convinced to believe anything? You are convinced that you have the right to exist outside of Hell, are you not? How did you become convinced of that, when you do not have the right to live? Never mind, I'm sorry your parents were abusive in trying to teach you whatever their religion was......I'm guessing Catholic. Whatever pain people caused you as a child, you still face eternity where? What are you going to say when you get there?
Somehow things got complicated and you missed the simplicity of the gospel message due to abusive tactics of your parents I guess........so now you have hardened your heart and you are making it all complicated to keep yourself away from the simple truth of reality, thinking you don't deserve to die and don't deserve to burn in Hell as a sinner?
He gained status and popularity, and he was lying because God doesn't exist and he conned people into believing he was the son of God and had powers that's manipulation, something which wasn't to difficult to do back in a time of un-education.
Yes, but he should have been aware that doing so would result in him getting punished for "lying".
he was lying because God doesn't exist
I'd argue this, but this isn't really relevant to the debate subject.
he conned people into believing he was the son of God and had powers that's manipulation, something which wasn't to difficult to do back in a time of un-education.
People would still have doubts. You have to be able to prove something to them. I'd imagine Jesus knowing that he won't get many followers if he doesn't perform miracles.
He clearly didn't anticipate the punishment he was going to receive?
He didn't have many followers did he? his popularity has only grown throughout the years, of course there was doubt and rightly so that's why so few followed him in his time.
We're going too far off from the OP...........................if you want to talk about other things, we can do it in PM. I want to try to keep the discussion more on base with the OP here.
Watch the videos, at least one of them, and comment showing you watched them or at least give your opinion and the reality or myth of the historical character of Jesus being the same Jesus of the New Testament. I'm not going to allow all kinds of off topic discussion.
Ok, that kind of attitude is to be expected from you. I don't want everybody going off debating the deity of Christ here. I'll just say you are jumping to conclusions without investigating to see if your conclusions are valid.....in other words, you need to make sure you know what you are talking about, for your own sake, for your own honor. You don't want to be making a fool of yourself talking about things you really have not investigated but rather decided you are against The Bible and will go with any opposing idea that comes along without investigation on your part before you make assertions and accusations.
You obviously know nothing about the Jewish religion and culture. The Jews who followed Jesus gained nothing of worldly value and risked losing everything including their lives. Your opinion and views are completely out of touch with the reality of the situation.
Before you go any further with this off topic discussion, I want you to watch at least one of the videos and discuss it. The points in the videos will give you a better understanding of Roman culture and Jesus culture under Roman rule. These are historic circumstances which you need to be aware of before you throw out all kinds of wild ideas regardless of how illogical they might be in light of the circumstances around the people you are talking about.
Saintnow, these people weren't looking to gain anything from this life they were looking to gain from the after life and the promise he gave them of heaven, and the fear of hell, they believed following him devoutly will save them from the fires of hell as you have stated many times, that's a powerful tool in a time of un-education and a time of many unknowns, the human mind was full of question but lacked the ability to answer, along comes religion with this convenient answer that requires no more question only direction, a very clever manipulation tool.
I never said that following Jesus devoutly will save you from the fires of Hell, and the people used to write the Bible did not believe I religion that way. The Bible does not teach that following Jesus devoutly will save you. That would be more in line with Catholic teaching, following religion and not being saved but trying to earn salvation while becoming a slave to religion. Nothing you do can save you from Hell's fire. Only the Savior can save you. If you are not saved, you are lost. You are looking at things from a position of "nobody, especially God, can tell me what to do, and anybody who believes in objective morals is trying to tell me what to do". Because you are going into what you do not now, you would be wise to investigate the facts. The fact that you cannot answer the question of your place in eternity should make you ask questions to find the answer. Maybe it's because you do not want direction, so you throw out hypothetical rhetorical questions which prevent you from having direction in anything other then embracing death. The promise of God is eternal life, the only thing promised to you in your refusal of direction is death.....are you like so many here who say "I accept death, it's ok."?
You can have eternal life but you have put up a wall in your mind believing it is not possible so you are not allowing any light to shine through that wall, and you feel hidden behind that wall so God can't punish you in death?? What happens when the wall falls, and you can't keep it up any more?
Calling the first century a time of un-education only proves that you are un-educated.
I think maybe you are looking at Catholicism as Christianity, as you are talking against Catholic ideas which are not Biblical and I would have to agree with your points of that religion being manipulative. I'm not talking about religion, I'm talking about a person who claimed to be God and whose message could not be stopped after His disciples spent time with Him after He rose from the dead bodily, the Son of God who died for the sins of the world to save all who believe on Him from the fire of Hell. You can be forgiven and know it and have eternal life, or you can remain in condemnation of death and end up in the Lake of Fire dying forever.
Because you do not have direction, other than yourself, which is the definition of being lost without direction, you might want to figure our where you are and where you are going.....your direction is leading to death, and you need a new direction. It is you who is blocking out the facts.
if you look at the historical time in question and compare it to now its un-educated,
if he rose again where did he go? where is he now? why hasn't he come back and shown himself? why wouldn't god step in now with the current world crisis and situation? not one thing has happened since his time? and in his time nothing can be proven so.........................?
It was not the stone age, they kept historical records and they had an educational system. They were smarter than you because you can't look at facts objectively.
Apparently you are not watching the videos of the OP and just want to keep on proclaiming your ignorance. You are becoming annoying. Jesus will be back, He will rule the world from Mt. Zion and all who are against Him will be destroyed and end up in the Lake of Fire. You think it's nothing that God Himself gave His life's blood to pay your price so you can be pardoned, so your blood will be on your own head as His sinless blood testifies against you. Prove me wrong, I really hope you prove me wrong, because I don't want you to burn in Hell forever. The only way you can prove me wrong is to get saved, and their is only one Savior, God, and you are rejecting me so I think you will prove me right and end up in Hell forever.
From 2nd Peter chapter three, describing people like you.
That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
If He came back now, and showed Himself in the flesh to you now, you would die and be in Hell forever. I want Him to come back now. You should be thankful He is giving you more time defying Him when you deserve no time at all, nobody deserves a moment of time and you use your time to try to defame your Creator.
If you want to continue in this discussion, it's time for you to watch the videos
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Here is a cold case homicide detective who for ten years of his career investigated cold case homicides and never lost a case when he brought a cold case to trial. He was an atheist, and investigated the claims of the gospel of Jesus Christ thinking he would prove it all to be fabrications. He found it is beyond a reasonable doubt to conclude that the gospel is true, and a reasonable person can logically agree.
The second discussion of the atheistic cold case homicide detective turned believer after investigating the gospels focuses on the evidence for the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ.
It seems like you are tying to avoid looking at the facts, trying to avoid look at the videos presented in the OP, not wanting to listen and only wanting to talk and not consider anything contradicting your opinion. If you're not going to listen, there's no point in you being here. Please listen and respond to something in the videos I am presenting.
There is no fear of Hell when you know your sins are forgiven. God Himself paid for my sins with His own blood, and rose from the dead conquering death and offering forgiveness to all who repent of their sins, believe on Him, and receive Him as their Savior. If you feel you have no reason to fear eternity in Hell, then why should it bother you when I tell you your sins have separated you from God and if you are not reconciled to God you will be separated from Him forever in Hell? Why should you care what Christians or the Bible say? When people talk about aliens or the Filleting Spaghetti Monster or Santa Clause or Unicorns or Allah, I really don't care. I have no fear of them sending me to Hell. I don't care what those gods think about me, if you believe in them, go ahead and enjoy.
The truth of the matter is more like you are trying to be your own god, believing you can keep yourself outside of Hell because you have the right to live and it's not your fault you exist so you can't be help responsible for your actions. Keep on believing that stuff, whatever you believe, and see if it keeps you out of Hell and don't be afraid of dying. Be a proud brave fool and I hope you have a good long life because it's not going to get better.
That would be quite a trick forJesus to fullfil every detail in all the prophesies foretold of the expected Messiah to such accuracy.
Every aspect - His birth place, His infant escape to Egypt, oh and related to that, is the prophesy of the deaths of the babies by Herod.
So He would have had to orchestrate that at 2, or His parents did, but I doubt they had any pull or clout with Herod to have pulled that off!
His physical attributes and mannerisms, the visit from the wise men, the Manger, oh and the forced travel near time of birth to Bethlehem required by a decree of Roman rule, in order to register populous in families home of origins.
Then He would have had to openly fulfil every prophesy in His visual ministry, Yet, be hidden enough so the Pharisees didn't make any connections to the scriptures they had memorized, as well as hidden from the general public, who also had the scriptures memorized.
So He would have had to have been everything they Should Have, and Would Have Expected from Prophesies, YET, hidden enough that they would have rejected Him. So He would have had to control responses of unwilling participants from Herod to the Pharisees to the general Jewish public.
Because it's foretold, they'd reject their Messiah, thus forcing the gospel out to the Gentiles, and to every Nation.
So not only all of what the prophets foretold of Him, but also orchestrate every one else, including the actions and responses of all the willing, and all of the unwilling participants.
So Jesus would have had to have been extremely talented to work these details such as their rejection, Judas' betrayal with a kiss, his silver coins payment, his distress after, and even the field the Pharisees bought with the coins he through back in quilt, and then his suicide.
He would have had to pre-plan Roman Soldiers, Pontius Pilate, the brutal beating whipping, and maybe He requested the crown of thorns, the spear in His side, and maybe He made a special agreement of cooperation if they promised not to break His legs like they did all the criminals crucified, so that every detail was accounted for. Oh and He probably orchestrated being in the middle of two crucified criminals that day instead of being on the end, and instead of being one of 5 on that particular day. And I guess He made a deal they'd release Barabas a murderer as He scripted the mob against Him.
Then striking the Shepherd, the sheep were scattered. I guess when He told Peter about his denial 3 times before the rooster crowed, He was really instructing them to behave like scared rabbits and scatter.
Then the after, that He'd be given a tomb by a rich guy, and of course have His body stolen.
And all that scattered would be bold to their deaths, after being chicken. And emboldened by a stolen core, not a Risen Savior.
So then He orchestrated the severe persecutions after, and the martyrs. Which they went to their deaths, and not just the 11, many who saw and followed, they endured lions, stoning, beheadings, prison, loss of loved ones all for a conspiracy orchestrated by Jesus.
Then, with all that, it grew and grew pushed out from the Jews, to all the Gentiles, and out to every Nation, every nationality, yet remained rejected by Jews as a whole as told in prophesies.
And then He planned all the false prophets and misrepresentations of His message as prophesied, or I guess uoud say duh, that was bound to happen.
So all these things were foretold, and I dont know which would need a greater miracle ... Jesus orchestrating all that, it it all being true and He is who He said He is.