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Debate Score:29
Arguments:33
Total Votes:30
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Saintnow(3684) pic



Jesus of the Bible in History.

https://youtu.be/zrRQqYGf4O0   (part 1, less than 10 mins)

https://youtu.be/AqlFkGaDV_M  (part 2, less than 10 mins)

https://youtu.be/-qUcXXbde4w  (part 3, less than 10 mins)

https://youtu.be/HGb3pOq8ihc  (part 4, less than 10 mins)

Please watch the video, any or all of the 4 in the set,  and focus discussion on the points of the video.   If you want to add points not discussed in the video, first recognize the points of the video related to your points.


Boobs is banned because he can't admit that the list of "historians" he references is bogus.  I argued this with him and while he partly conceded, he could not give up and found more and more ways of twisting reasoning to ignore the obvious deceptive nature of the list of "historians" he uses as "proof" that real Roman historians who referred to Christ and Christians were liars.  Common sense shows who the liars are, and who the fools who believe the liars are.  That list of 100 "historians" is easily shown to be bogus.  Boobs threw it in as a huge distraction and disruption avoiding talking about the points in the video.  If you are not going to watch the video and refer to the points in the video in your discussion, you may be banned for being disruptive; and the first time I see ANYBODY use profanity in any form here, they will be banned.

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1 point

Actually I completely agree that he physically existed and I think the evidence on that is compelling.

The discrepancy to me is the accuracy of what his disciples reported years after his death. But that isn't the point of this stream of videos so let's put that aside.

Yes. Jesus of Nazareth, aka Jesus Christ, was a living person.

Saintnow(3684) Disputed
1 point

Thank you for recognizing that veracity of the eyewitness accounts of the New Testament is not part of this discussion. It is natural for unbelievers to discount certain parts of the witness testimonies, especially the parts about the deity of Christ, His bodily resurrection, and His emphatic warnings about the reality of Hell's fire condemning sinners. Those three points have always been the issue of unbelievers. This thing about changing history into myths is a recent and silly development.

And by the way, Jesus's disciples reported His resurrection immediately when they saw Him alive. Under constant threat of death from Jewish religious authorities who forbid teaching in Jesus' name, it was not easy to make and pass along a written account. The account of Jesus' resurrection started three days after He was buried, not thirty or sixty years later. Jews spreading Jesus' message in spite of torture and execution were not doing it for nothing, and much less would they start doing it long after the fact with a made up story which only brought excommunication from Jewish society and fear of or reality of tortuous persecution.

You are approaching from a biased position in which you blind yourself from seeing the truth because you know if you believe the gospel, then Jesus owns your life and you don't want to lose it......so you try to keep if for yourself and all you are doing is losing it and you will be lost forever in Hell if you will not repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Grenache(4840) Disputed
1 point

Nope, I look at it without any fear at all, which is why your threats of going to hell never phase me, and which is what allows me to see the angers and fears of living men in the way the disciples wrote their stories.

But remember, this debate was only about whether Jesus lived. Debating what his disciples wrote later is off topic. I thought you were one of those adamant we must always stay on topic or be banned?

KNHav(1918) Disputed
1 point

That would be quite a trick forJesus to fullfil every detail in all the prophesies foretold of the expected Messiah to such accuracy.

Every aspect - His birth place, His infant escape to Egypt, oh and related to that, is the prophesy of the deaths of the babies by Herod.

So He would have had to orchestrate that at 2, or His parents did, but I doubt they had any pull or clout with Herod to have pulled that off!

His physical attributes and mannerisms, the visit from the wise men, the Manger, oh and the forced travel near time of birth to Bethlehem required by a decree of Roman rule, in order to register populous in families home of origins.

Then He would have had to openly fulfil every prophesy in His visual ministry, Yet, be hidden enough so the Pharisees didn't make any connections to the scriptures they had memorized, as well as hidden from the general public, who also had the scriptures memorized.

So He would have had to have been everything they Should Have, and Would Have Expected from Prophesies, YET, hidden enough that they would have rejected Him. So He would have had to control responses of unwilling participants from Herod to the Pharisees to the general Jewish public.

Because it's foretold, they'd reject their Messiah, thus forcing the gospel out to the Gentiles, and to every Nation.

So not only all of what the prophets foretold of Him, but also orchestrate every one else, including the actions and responses of all the willing, and all of the unwilling participants.

So Jesus would have had to have been extremely talented to work these details such as their rejection, Judas' betrayal with a kiss, his silver coins payment, his distress after, and even the field the Pharisees bought with the coins he through back in quilt, and then his suicide.

He would have had to pre-plan Roman Soldiers, Pontius Pilate, the brutal beating whipping, and maybe He requested the crown of thorns, the spear in His side, and maybe He made a special agreement of cooperation if they promised not to break His legs like they did all the criminals crucified, so that every detail was accounted for. Oh and He probably orchestrated being in the middle of two crucified criminals that day instead of being on the end, and instead of being one of 5 on that particular day. And I guess He made a deal they'd release Barabas a murderer as He scripted the mob against Him.

Then striking the Shepherd, the sheep were scattered. I guess when He told Peter about his denial 3 times before the rooster crowed, He was really instructing them to behave like scared rabbits and scatter.

Then the after, that He'd be given a tomb by a rich guy, and of course have His body stolen.

And all that scattered would be bold to their deaths, after being chicken. And emboldened by a stolen core, not a Risen Savior.

So then He orchestrated the severe persecutions after, and the martyrs. Which they went to their deaths, and not just the 11, many who saw and followed, they endured lions, stoning, beheadings, prison, loss of loved ones all for a conspiracy orchestrated by Jesus.

Then, with all that, it grew and grew pushed out from the Jews, to all the Gentiles, and out to every Nation, every nationality, yet remained rejected by Jews as a whole as told in prophesies.

And then He planned all the false prophets and misrepresentations of His message as prophesied, or I guess uoud say duh, that was bound to happen.

So all these things were foretold, and I dont know which would need a greater miracle ... Jesus orchestrating all that, it it all being true and He is who He said He is.

Did a guy called Jesus exist? more than likely, was he the son of god not a chance, he was an opportunist who managed to convince people of a lie he concocted, this lie managed to snowball with the extreme length of self sacrifice and story's spun by his followers, he was a liar and a con artist. in fact he's that good of a con artist there's still people here today who believe his story's.

dadman(1466) Disputed
1 point

...................................... so why was his body never found ? ..... see: Risen ...

I saw this last Saturday Night ... Excellent (20 stars) :)

minimurph83(193) Disputed
1 point

Because someone removed it, I'm guessing his loyal followers? not to hard to decipher.

1 point

Why do you believe he was lying? Or why do you think he was a con artist? What would he gain from that?

minimurph83(193) Disputed
2 points

He gained status and popularity, and he was lying because God doesn't exist and he conned people into believing he was the son of God and had powers that's manipulation, something which wasn't to difficult to do back in a time of un-education.

Saintnow(3684) Disputed
1 point

Watch the videos, at least one of them, and comment showing you watched them or at least give your opinion and the reality or myth of the historical character of Jesus being the same Jesus of the New Testament. I'm not going to allow all kinds of off topic discussion.

Saintnow(3684) Clarified
1 point

I guess I can allow discussion and questions like yours. ............

Saintnow(3684) Clarified
1 point

Ok, that kind of attitude is to be expected from you. I don't want everybody going off debating the deity of Christ here. I'll just say you are jumping to conclusions without investigating to see if your conclusions are valid.....in other words, you need to make sure you know what you are talking about, for your own sake, for your own honor. You don't want to be making a fool of yourself talking about things you really have not investigated but rather decided you are against The Bible and will go with any opposing idea that comes along without investigation on your part before you make assertions and accusations.

You obviously know nothing about the Jewish religion and culture. The Jews who followed Jesus gained nothing of worldly value and risked losing everything including their lives. Your opinion and views are completely out of touch with the reality of the situation.

Before you go any further with this off topic discussion, I want you to watch at least one of the videos and discuss it. The points in the videos will give you a better understanding of Roman culture and Jesus culture under Roman rule. These are historic circumstances which you need to be aware of before you throw out all kinds of wild ideas regardless of how illogical they might be in light of the circumstances around the people you are talking about.

minimurph83(193) Clarified
1 point

Saintnow, these people weren't looking to gain anything from this life they were looking to gain from the after life and the promise he gave them of heaven, and the fear of hell, they believed following him devoutly will save them from the fires of hell as you have stated many times, that's a powerful tool in a time of un-education and a time of many unknowns, the human mind was full of question but lacked the ability to answer, along comes religion with this convenient answer that requires no more question only direction, a very clever manipulation tool.

KNHav(1918) Disputed
1 point

That would be quite a trick forJesus to fullfil every detail in all the prophesies foretold of the expected Messiah to such accuracy.

Every aspect - His birth place, His infant escape to Egypt, oh and related to that, is the prophesy of the deaths of the babies by Herod.

So He would have had to orchestrate that at 2, or His parents did, but I doubt they had any pull or clout with Herod to have pulled that off!

His physical attributes and mannerisms, the visit from the wise men, the Manger, oh and the forced travel near time of birth to Bethlehem required by a decree of Roman rule, in order to register populous in families home of origins.

Then He would have had to openly fulfil every prophesy in His visual ministry, Yet, be hidden enough so the Pharisees didn't make any connections to the scriptures they had memorized, as well as hidden from the general public, who also had the scriptures memorized.

So He would have had to have been everything they Should Have, and Would Have Expected from Prophesies, YET, hidden enough that they would have rejected Him. So He would have had to control responses of unwilling participants from Herod to the Pharisees to the general Jewish public.

Because it's foretold, they'd reject their Messiah, thus forcing the gospel out to the Gentiles, and to every Nation.

So not only all of what the prophets foretold of Him, but also orchestrate every one else, including the actions and responses of all the willing, and all of the unwilling participants.

So Jesus would have had to have been extremely talented to work these details such as their rejection, Judas' betrayal with a kiss, his silver coins payment, his distress after, and even the field the Pharisees bought with the coins he through back in quilt, and then his suicide.

He would have had to pre-plan Roman Soldiers, Pontius Pilate, the brutal beating whipping, and maybe He requested the crown of thorns, the spear in His side, and maybe He made a special agreement of cooperation if they promised not to break His legs like they did all the criminals crucified, so that every detail was accounted for. Oh and He probably orchestrated being in the middle of two crucified criminals that day instead of being on the end, and instead of being one of 5 on that particular day. And I guess He made a deal they'd release Barabas a murderer as He scripted the mob against Him.

Then striking the Shepherd, the sheep were scattered. I guess when He told Peter about his denial 3 times before the rooster crowed, He was really instructing them to behave like scared rabbits and scatter.

Then the after, that He'd be given a tomb by a rich guy, and of course have His body stolen.

And all that scattered would be bold to their deaths, after being chicken. And emboldened by a stolen core, not a Risen Savior.

So then He orchestrated the severe persecutions after, and the martyrs. Which they went to their deaths, and not just the 11, many who saw and followed, they endured lions, stoning, beheadings, prison, loss of loved ones all for a conspiracy orchestrated by Jesus.

Then, with all that, it grew and grew pushed out from the Jews, to all the Gentiles, and out to every Nation, every nationality, yet remained rejected by Jews as a whole as told in prophesies.

And then He planned all the false prophets and misrepresentations of His message as prophesied, or I guess uoud say duh, that was bound to happen.

So all these things were foretold, and I dont know which would need a greater miracle ... Jesus orchestrating all that, it it all being true and He is who He said He is.

1 point

You forgot to ban me here.