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Doesn't that sound so much better than tje shitty world we live in? I'm not planning on doing it myself but doesn't that song make something so awful sound so awesome?! I'm not saying we should do it but my point is music can make anything sound fun!!! Who agrees?! This debate is irrelevant to suicide. Lol.
Are you saying George Bush is the President ? Do you need some information Progressives don't care for Black People ? Wait i believe you stated you were a Racist !
I did find where you presented yourself as a Racist ! "Its a good thing. It just killed 3 niggers!" as written by Jacobfoolguy ! Why is it you Progressives claim everyone else is a RACIST when you exposed yourself as one !
What does George Bush have to do with the last 8 years Progressive ? Can you explain ? Looking for your explanation Progressive ! You have an explanation ?
I agree with your assessment with regards to spewing harmful lyrics which won't be the first time this sort of thing has taken place. Clearly with as much complaining as been done regarding gangsta rap we have to go on the presumption that these lyrics can have harmful effects.
Sadly I think America has a sick culture since we have so many people filled with racial hatred, road rage, gender bias, the need to feel superior, Faul mouth, indignant, and not respectful, self-centered etc. I believe there are those of us who are too stick to even realize how sick we are! As this type of behavior illustrates to me freedom without restraint isn't freedom but rather chaos!
so you don't like the song. I listen to it a lot. I've always liked twiztid's songs I guess. So yeah, almost all of their other songs are mostly about murder and murderers. Some are about other kinds of death.
Why do we have to go on the presumption that these lyrics can have harmful effects just because they are unpopular? Of course they are unpopular. The genre (horrorcore) is defined by being transgressive.
What makes you think America actually has more people like than is average?
What makes you think the cause is too much freedom rather than known contributing variables such as income inequality, access to health care, fear-mongering, ignorance, etc.
You make a lot of leaps that take you to "chaos!"...
Jace I'm guessing you're addressing me so here are my comments.
When it comes to Free Speech we cannot have it both ways by that I am saying we cannot pretend to be able to say what ever we feel like and tell ourselves it has no effect.
'Loving' teenager hanged himself after listening to 'death metal music with dark lyrics which glorified death'
This denial that we people have that words have no impact is not just erroneous but an absolute lie. We listen to what candidates have to say in order for us to decide what we're going to do. We listen to storytellers to experience with the storyteller that which is being said.
Wanting to do one's own thing doesn't change reality or the facts people can be influenced and has been for some time, in years past they were called flimflam men, con artists, busybodies and other labels. It is my understanding the two killers of Columbine took their physical look from a movie. One of the earliest indication of this influence is the Aurora, Colorado theater murderer.
Pretending like words have no power means that people have wasted their time giving speeches to affect countrymen, nations etc. "Ask Not What Your Country Can Do for You!"
When a song that was #2 on the charts is linked to the suicide of one person who was a Columbine survivor, you don't really have a case to say that songs lyrics are a driving factor for suicide.
Our freedom of expression is limited in that we cannot, for example, yell fire in a crowded theater. What other restrictions would you recommend to avoid chaos?
Firstly I'm not the one making the claims regarding the suicide of especially adolescence based on lyrics and I fully believe that if one search the Internet they could find several more cases where that has been a reality.
It is my opinion that the limitations placed on freedom of speech aren't good enough. We are clearly kidding ourselves if we don't think that words are powerful, I believe I've said that before if it were not so would we not need to place restrictions on things we allow our children to watch? There are things we don't allow other people to say to our children so pretending that people are not affected by speech is strictly self denial by those people!
First of all I believe we need to convey to these people saying anything and everything Is Not Okay. There should be a limitation on vulgarity, we currently don't like to have that set around our children so why is it illegal option? Derogatory, vulgar comments around race, gender has no place in Free Speech! Legalizing lying to obtain information as found in American police stations should have some restrictions on them as this approach can cause innocent people to be placed in prison.
Legalizing lying to obtain information as found in American police stations should have some restrictions on them
American police are substantially restricted in how they interview/interrogate people. There is nothing wrong with a cop making a suspect believe they already know the truth even when they don't. What kind of lies do cops tell that get innocent people locked up? How many innocent people would get locked up if we all had to watch what we say lest we are too vulgar for someone?
I believe we need to convey to these people saying anything and everything Is Not Okay
Good manners need to be taught by parents, not enforced by law.
There should be a limitation on vulgarity, we currently don't like to have that set around our children so why is it illegal option?
Because when you break the law, people with guns can take money from you and/or throw you in a cage. It's up to parents to protect their children. You see no value in things you consider vulgar. But people have different ideas about what speech is vulgar and what speech is valuable. If we were to implement vulgarity laws, you may find that your own speech is hindered as others may find you offensive.
Derogatory, vulgar comments around race, gender has no place in Free Speech!
It's not Free Speech without these things!
Everything can be put in terms of race or gender. That means that almost every political issue can be presented in such a way so as to make one side look racist or sexist. Thus we can silence our political opponents. Border security is a race issue. Abortion is a gender issue. Since minorities have disproportionate levels of poverty, government assistance is a race issue. What if Israel has a war? Opposing getting into the war with them could be considered anti-Semitic.
If you effectively stop racists and bigots from expressing themselves, you are not stopping racists and bigots. You are only helping them hide.
There have been a number of police cases where especially young offenders have been pressured into admitting committing crimes they did not commit through the erroneous accusations made by the police during interrogation. They have been people who confessed to crimes presented by the police because they simply didn't want to wreck their marriage since they have cheating on their spouse. It seems to me you're thinking helps to foster this unlawful practice!
A standard for common decency should be based on society's values we cannot have millions of people with their own interpretation of what is good manners because it guaranteed they all won't be the same, maybe it's me but that just seems so clear.
Unlike a lot of people in this day and age I am prepared to relinquish some of my freedoms for an improved lifestyle rather than sticking with the standard quote just because!
The problem with bigot and racist hiding is they can't be bigot and racist if they don't show themselves to be!
There have been a number of police cases where especially young offenders have been pressured into admitting committing crimes they did not commit through the erroneous accusations made by the police during interrogation
Which is why there are laws now, that were not there before, about how juveniles are questioned.
They have been people who confessed to crimes presented by the police because they simply didn't want to wreck their marriage since they have cheating on their spouse
Sounds like good television as apposed to reality.
It seems to me you're thinking helps to foster this unlawful practice!
I thought you wanted new laws concerning current practice.
A standard for common decency should be based on society's values we cannot have millions of people with their own interpretation of what is good manners because it guaranteed they all won't be the same
We live in a diverse society with many cultures. What is considered good manners varies not only by region, but by ethnic background. Our society is so diverse that our common values are few. Common values concerning what is polite is non-existent.
Did you forget to take off your shoes at the door? Did you shake with your left hand? Did you display the bottom of your foot when you sat down? If you think these are not examples of vulgar behavior, then you understand the problem.
Unlike a lot of people in this day and age I am prepared to relinquish some of my freedoms for an improved lifestyle rather than sticking with the standard quote just because!
The problem here is that legally restricting peoples freedom of expression will not actually improve American lifestyle. Fortunately, you have the freedom to turn off the TV, listen to whatever music you like, and guard your children against what you deem inappropriate. You have the freedom to do this without having to capture and cage like animals, people whom you are offended by.
People don't just support the First Amendment out of a sense of tradition or to maintain a status quo. They support it for the principle for which it was written which still applies today. Perhaps more than before.
The problem with bigot and racist hiding is they can't be bigot and racist if they don't show themselves to be!
They will most certainly continue to BE bigots and racists. They will continue to DO bigoted and racists things. They just won't SAY it or make it obvious.
The things you're saying, the ideas you're presenting from where I'm sitting do not fall in the form of reality in this day and age. Laws in place today vary depending upon who you are, what is your status in life (rich, poor, Black, White).
This taking your shoes off, let's handshake can I'm sure there's some kind a message there but I'm not getting it. The point being if you as a foreigner sign up to work in the United States on in an American company you and several other foreigners will have to concede that you cannot do your thing on this job as you did from where you came. How else is the work going to get done if everybody's running around doing their own thing!
Basically I've gotten to the point where you're not accepting my views and I'm not accepting yours so there's no point in continuing this debate.
Laws in place today vary depending upon who you are, what is your status in life (rich, poor, Black, White)
Variance in the application of the law exists because we are human. But it goes against a fundamental value of this country; equality before the law.
This taking your shoes off, let's handshake can I'm sure there's some kind a message there but I'm not getting it
There are some cultures where people find the things I mentioned to be incredibly vulgar. There are American Citizens who have these cultural backgrounds. The point is that your idea of vulgarity does not match other peoples ideas. For example, I think that locking people up for being offensive is an incredibly vulgar idea, but I wouldn't want you locked up for expressing these sick ideas of yours.
Basically I've gotten to the point where you're not accepting my views and I'm not accepting yours so there's no point in continuing this debate
You shouldn't debate people in order to convince them as that almost never happens. You should debate people to convince the audience that may be reading your words. That being said, if you wish to stop I can stop.
Yes stop because I don't believe beating a dead horse and debating doesn't need me to convince them which way to go they have their own mind they can decide for themselves. I use also like to say people should Get Out Of The Habit Of Telling Other People What They Should and Should Not Do.
I take your position would be if anybody decides to walk into your house and they should be able to tell you what you should and should not be doing-I did say anyone.
No. I support property right too. So if someone comes into my house, I can tell them to leave. Period. If they don't, I can remove them. I can have them removed by force. If they are a threat, I can defend myself. The point is, you're free to eliminate vulgarity from your house. You have no right to remove it from mine.
I never said that we could say whatever we want without consequence. I said that the lack of popularity of transgressive speech does not automatically makes its consequences harmful, which was your original argument.
Correlation is not causation, and while your intuition leads you fallaciously presume that latter the simple fact of that matter is that it is not proven. The case you mention was not subjected to any scientific rigor but presented on news media channels which are hardly renowned for their objectivity (though often for their sensationalism). We do not know how many times the person actually listened to the song. We do not know if listening made them more likely to act, or if it actually delayed action because it made them feel someone else went through this too. We also know that post traumatic mental health issues likely played a role in this instance, which actually is established as a causal variable in suicidality. Moreover, a single case does not prove a general rule.
Even were your case legitimate proof of your point, I would still not censor speech on that basis. Suicide is more complex than a single variable, and there are more productive areas upon which we can focus to make the (purported) influence of song lyrics a moot point - adequate mental health care, access to that care, gun control to prevent trauma induced disorders due to mass shootings, combating stigma against depression, investing social resources into building inclusive and supportive communities, etc. If we are not addressing these known variables, then censoring speech is unlikely to have any significant impact.
I also absolutely appreciate the power of words, which is why I am categorically opposed to censorship of private and public expression. The power of that expression is the well-source of healthy republics, and focusing upon their harms even where such harm maybe valid is a red herring to the real issues.
P.S. In future, when linking use hyperlinking to avoid this obnoxious underline result. desired hyperlinked text, or click "Show Help" when writing comment.
Basically you are as I pointed out previously seems to be one of those people in denial when it comes to accepting simply your viewpoint and nothing else matters.
I'm guessing most people would eyes can see the impact words have on human beings, did we not recently have someone tracked down for sending death threats to I believe to a politician (why so if they were merely just words)?
If I were to accept your point of view then you're telling me should an anonymous person call your home and tell you over the phone they are going to kill your wife and kids you don't have a problem with that I mean they are just words?
I never said there was no effect, or that there should never be any consequences to speech. I asked you to warrant your still baseless claim of significant causality, and objected to preemptive censorship. Basically, you are incapable of grasping nuance and not misrepresenting my statements. Your strawman is a pathetic excuse for an argument. I am done spending time on you.
