CreateDebate is a social debate community built around ideas, discussion and democracy.
If this is your first time checking out a debate, here are some quick tips to help get you started:
Arguments with the highest score are displayed first.
Argument replies (both in favor and in opposition) are displayed below the original argument.
To follow along, you may find it helpful to show and hide the replies displayed below each argument.
To vote for an argument, use these icons:
You have the power to cast exactly one vote (either up or down) for each argument.
Once you vote, the icon will become grayed out and the argument's score will change.
Yes, you can change your vote.
Debate scores, side scores and tag scores are automatically calculated by an algorithm that primarily takes argument scores into account.
All scores are updated in real-time.
To learn more about the CreateDebate scoring system, check out the FAQ.
When you are ready to voice your opinion, use the Add Argument button to create an argument.
If you would like to address an existing argument, use the Support and Dispute link within that argument to create a new reply.
You can share this debate in three different ways:
#1
#2
#3
Paste this URL into an email or IM:
Click here to send this debate via your default email application.
Click here to login and CreateDebate will send an email for you.
Life after death
Hello guys I just want to know your opinion about than, what is waiting for us at the the end of the tunnel. New life (reincarnation), heaven, hell, limb or maybe something else...
Yes there is life after death because in Hell there will be weeping,screaming,and gnashing of teeth because people are suffering because they choose not to believe in God and just how Srom1883 said that its not God that sends people to hell its the the person who decides not to believe in God and do it there own way when there is only one way to heaven and thats through Jesus Christ alone.
Yes there is life after death because in Hell there will be weeping,screaming,and gnashing of teeth because people are suffering because they choose not to believe in God and just how Srom1883 said that its not God that sends people to hell its the the person who decides not to believe in God and do it there own way when there is only one way to heaven and thats through Jesus Christ alone.
Oh yeah, great. Care to back that up with some hard evidence? (fairy tale books don't count, sorry).
And it's far more likely to happen then religious ideas about life and death.
and yet neither are supported with testable evidence?
I disagree. Unless, you can show me evidence of any life form that did not or does not die, I will maintain that death is just a part of life and ought to just be accepted, not feared.
I do not fear death, mind you. But if I have a choice in between dying naturally or carrying on, why should I not carry on? Death is accepted as a part of life because that's the way things have been; there is no escape from it.
But what if there was an escape from it, someday?
There is no organism that lives forever, this is true. But, what does carry on approximately forever? Plastics, metals, most of the things we humans artificially create. We have all these things within our current technology, and sadly, our landfills. They won't disappear for millions of years.
But I digress.
I don't think it's a preposterous notion to suggest that our technology will one day be so advanced that our lifespans are unlimited.
It’s about as preposterous as saying our conscience can be active after our brain function ceases as with what is suggested in theories of the 'afterlife,' for me it is anyway. Perhaps this is just one thing we will not agree on but I take it that the evidence shows us that living things die.
Birth, energy consumption, youth, vitality, fertility, growth, old age, sterility, deterioration, death. This is what living things go through, some life forms take longer but it eventually happens. I guess I am taking the ‘Atheistic’ standpoint, until there is testable evidence that shows we can live forever, I will take the default position by stating my unbelief.
If you want to 'live forever' your best bet would be to accomplish something which will allow your memory to exist in the brains of future generations.
Einstein has not died in a way for example, not as long as his memory lives on.
It’s about as preposterous as saying our conscience can be active after our brain function ceases as with what is suggested in theories of the 'afterlife,' for me it is anyway.
How so? The belief in an afterlife is perpetuated by religious ignorance. The belief in the possibility of living forever is something that our technology may be able to accomplish in the future. What makes them equally preposterous?
Perhaps this is just one thing we will not agree on but I take it that the evidence shows us that living things die.
Sure, all living things die. But back when the human race did not exist, no living thing could create things from the resources around them. Did that mean it was impossible back then for creatures one day to create tools and then use resources around them via technological development?
Of course not.
Evolution lets us overcome anything, my friend.
I guess I am taking the ‘Atheistic’ standpoint, until there is testable evidence that shows we can live forever, I will take the default position by stating my unbelief.
Very well; just wait somewhere in between 30-60 years. Then you will have your proof, more likely then not. I believe the only thing that will stop the proof from arising will be a catastrophe that nearly makes the human race extinct, but I don't see it happening. If it didn't happen in the past 30 thousand years, why would it happen now more likely then any other time? It won't. I'll be surprised if it does.
If you want to 'live forever' your best bet would be to accomplish something which will allow your memory to exist in the brains of future generations.
My best bet would be to do something like that and the technological ascension of death I have explained. Together simultaneously, I'd say that's definitely a complete conquering of death. A slap and spit to the Reaper's face.
The belief in an afterlife is perpetuated by religious ignorance. The belief in the possibility of living forever is something that our technology may be able to accomplish in the future. What makes them equally preposterous?
I wasn’t comparing the two notions as being both religious, although they do share the ignorance factor in my opinion. I was comparing them because they are (as far as the evidence shows) false notions based purely on hope. You said that “the possibility of living forever is something that our technology may be able to accomplish in the future,” but one could just as well say that is it possible that an afterlife does indeed exist and that technology can discover this as a truth in the future. I guess that what I am trying to tell you is that while these notions are possible, neither are probable.
And I am okay with that, the prospect of living forever sounds like the last thing I would want considering the world we live in. Death has a serene, peaceful sentiment in my opinion. A well deserved rest, a solace to the fire.
Sure, all living things die. But back when the human race did not exist, no living thing could create things from the resources around them. Did that mean it was impossible back then for creatures one day to create tools and then use resources around them via technological development?
Of course not.
Evolution lets us overcome anything, my friend.
I don’t see what this has to do with living forever. Are you saying that our species can evolve into a life form that doesn’t die? Above, you said that technology would accomplish this. I think I’m confused. But either way, I don’t think either is likely to happen. I think that with technology, we can prolong the lives of people. People used to have a much higher mortality rate in our history, and the average age of death was in the 30s or 40s range. Now the average is about 75 -80 and who knows how much longer that can be extended. Extended indefinitely though? Well I think this is where you and I will continually butt heads.
Just wait somewhere in between 30-60 years. Then you will have your proof,
Now, if you said something like FAR into the future, I think you would have a lot more credibility, but 30-60 years?!... uuum, wow. Just… wow.
I believe the only thing that will stop the proof from arising will be a catastrophe that nearly makes the human race extinct, but I don't see it happening. If it didn't happen in the past 30 thousand years, why would it happen now more likely then any other time? It won't. I'll be surprised if it does.
I consider a huge catastrophe happening far before people are living forever. It hasn’t happened in the past thirty thousand years because for the greatest majority of that time, we didn’t have weapons capable of obliterating whole cities and disintegrating millions of people in one explosion. It may not be a natural disaster that does it; we could very well be the end of ourselves at our going rate.
What we DID have for the greatest majority of that time is a species that has continuously sought out to kill, maim or torture anybody that didn’t look like them, act like them, talk like them, believe in the same God they do, or wear the same hats that they wore. The human species hasn’t proven to be good at a “living forever” concept, what they are DAMN good at, is killing, controlling, manipulating, enslaving, discriminating, and hoarding, all the while touting that “Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not steal. Love your neighbors.” Etc etc. Our technological advances have not only prolonged the lifespan of the species, but it has come now to a point when it can potentially end the human species considering the savage nature of the devil called Man.
Yes when you die you go to 1 of 2 places. You ethier go to heaven which is a place where Christians and Jews go because they spent their time on earth serving God and doing the right things like helping the poor going on missionary trips and bringing other people to Jesus Christ. Hell is for people who didn't believe in God they choose to do the worldy things out there and ignore God and do other wicked things on this earth. Just to let you know when people die and don't believe in God its the person that is setting them selves up for hell because God said that there is free will so you can believe in anything you want but its the person that sets himself or herself up for hell.
You ethier go to heaven which is a place where Christians and Jews go because they spent their time on earth serving God and doing the right things like helping the poor going on missionary trips and bringing other people to Jesus Christ.
First of all, unless they are “Messianic,” Jews don't bring "other people to Jesus Christ," nor do they go on missionary trips nor believe in an afterlife the way Christians do, not to my knowledge anyway.
Now a few questions:
1. Do all Christians and Jews go to heaven? What about if they murder, or molest little kids? Is a person who commits a crime and then believes in God absolved of their sins?
Hell is for people who didn't believe in God they choose to do the worldy things out there and ignore God and do other wicked things on this earth.
2. Do you have evidence that a place such as hell even exists? I'll even accept scriptural evidence. Be advised however, that I will be challenging your evidence with a lot of scrutiny, so you better know your stuff and realize how big of a pile you just stepped in.
3. What happens to the men, women, and children who are born in a place, in a home that have no knowledge of God as it is presented in the Christian Bible? If a missionary does not make it to them in time, are they doomed to spend an eternity in hell?
God said that there is free will.
4. He did? Evidence please. Again, scriptural evidence is acceptable for me, but it will be thoroughly examined so be on your game.
Just to let you know when people die and don't believe in God its the person that is setting them selves up for hell because God said that there is free will so you can believe in anything you want but its the person that sets himself or herself up for hell.
5. Simple questions here, if you are being punished by the choice you made, do you have free will? If you are given any incentive for the choice you make, is that really making a choice on your own free will?
As a strict determinist, I will even go as far as to challenge you to prove if a concept of ‘free will’ can even exist.
Not all Jews and Christian go to heaven its people who serve God and do his will and believe that Jesus Christ is God. If they repent for what they did and do not do again and turn away and never do it again then they are saved.
Here all the Bible verses that talk about Hell
Deu 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
2 Sam 22:6 The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;
Job 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
Job 26:6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
Psa 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in ther dwellings, and among them.
Psa 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
Psa 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Prov 5:5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.
Prov 7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.
Prov 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.
Prov 15:11 Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?
Prov 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
Prov 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Prov 27:20 Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.
Isa 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Isa 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Isa 57:9 And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.
Ezek 31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.
Ezek 31:17 They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.
Ezek 32:21 The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
Ezek 32:27 And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to their hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.
Amos 9:2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:
Jonah 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
Hab 2:5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Luke 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
2 Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
God gave us free will to believe in whatever you want to believe. So if you choose to be a atheist then that's your choice to be it and when you made that decision you set yourself up for hell not God.
Not all Jews and Christian go to heaven its people who serve God and do his will and believe that Jesus Christ is God. If they repent for what they did and do not do again and turn away and never do it again then they are saved.
Thanks, I just wanted to clear that up. So, if a person repents of their sin, falls on their knees and cries out to God to save them of their sins, is that how they are saved? That is what my church told visitors on Sundays when I used to go to church, is that about how it goes?
Here all the Bible verses that talk about Hell
Considering the length of this following post, and the fact that it digresses from the OP, I feel obligated to advise any other readers to proceed at their own discretion.
Deu 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
The Hebrew word translated to Hell in this passage is “sheol” which is more accurately translated as “grave.”
2 Sam 22:6 The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;
Again “sheol” is “grave.”
Job 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
Sheol, grave. And also the book of Job is not meant to be taken literally as with a lot of the Old Testament. It is called a “didactic poem” which is not an actual historical account, but a parable or legend used as a tool for teaching.
Job 26:6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
Okay this is getting ridiculous.
All the passages in the old testament where hell is mentioned in newer translations, it is a mistranslation from the word sheol which actually translates to “grave.” The belief at that time was that the body returned to the Earth and the spirit (breath) returned to God who gave it.
Throughout the Old Testament we can see that the Hebrew people were constantly being exiled from lands, taking over land, being exiled again, taking back land and being taken over. It happens over and over again in their history and even to this day they fight over their land. It would be right to assume that through all of this the Hebrew people would be influenced by the many different cultures. Even so, the word wasn’t altered in the scriptures, it remained “grave,” or “sheol” as it is written in Hebrew, only the concept changed. Wouldn’t an inspired work of God remain consistent, not only in diction but in meaning as well?
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Now here’s where it gets interesting…
Not only is this a mistranslation, but it’s a mistranslation of a completely different word than in the Old Testament. The original word here is “Gehenna,” it’s not hell fire, but Gehenna fire.
Gehenna is a greek word for the very large pit in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom outside of Jerusalem where the citizens would throw their refuse and where the poor (who couldn’t afford a proper funeral and burial) would take their deceased family members. This Gehenna fire was basically an ever burning garbage pit, which was established as a way to keep the city sanitary and stop the spread of diseases. Most of the time it was just a smoldering heap of coals until someone would have something to burn, then they would rake the coals, get a nice roaring fire going and burn away the trash or dead bodies.
What’s particularly interesting about the Gehenna fire pit was that this was also a place where capital punishment was performed, or if a stoning would occur, the body was then thrown on the pit after being deemed unfit for proper burial. Proper burial was vastly important in that time considering a proper burial and blessing from the religious leader meant that a person’s spirit could be granted the opportunity to be one with the maker. When used as capital punishment, it was viewed as a lesser means to enact the punishment, the worst of course being a scourge followed by crucifixion.
Another thing that the Gehenna fire was used for was a sacrificial pit for apostates who worshipped other gods such as Moloch to sacrifice their children and babies. It was a place that people feared no doubt, but a very real place that was here on Earth at one time, not a fictitious alternate realm.
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell…
….Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
The verses you listed in between these two show examples of the word hell being translated from “gehenna.”
Luke 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
In these verses, the word hell is translated from the word “Hades.” The New Testament was translated in large part from the Greek language which was the trade language at the time. Some words are not easily translated from one culture to another, not only that but Greece had a lot of influence over many cultures including the Roman Empire. Scholars even maintain that Jesus of Nazareth spoke Greek instead of Hebrew. Funny how a different culture such as Greek can have such a large effect on the so-called “inspired” word of God. If the Bible is inspired then it would only be reasonable to expect consistency. Instead, we get many translations and many meanings of this word “hell” throughout the history of the Bible. We go from sheol (grave) to gehenna (refuse pit) to Hades (Greek underworld) and finally to…
2 Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
…Tartarus, both a Greek deity and in Greek mythology as a place within the underworld (Hades.)
That’s four different words that all mean the same thing when translated to English. You may have a strong argument that the Bible is accurate, but certainly not if you are referring to the English translation, you would have to study ancient Hebrew, ancient Greek and, oh, here’s a thought… how about you research your own fucking religion?
God gave us free will to believe in whatever you want to believe. So if you choose to be a atheist then that's your choice to be it and when you made that decision you set yourself up for hell not God.
My position is that a person doesn’t choose those things. An atheist doesn’t choose to be an atheist, he sees no evidence in the existence of a god so they take the default position that ‘because there is no evidence, God does not exist.” There’s little choice if any involved. Even those who seemingly choose to believe that there is a god are not choosing that on their own volition, they are basing that belief on what they were taught, by the family they had no choice in having, who were born in the country they had no choice in being born in, which formed on a planet which nobody had the choice in its creation.
I didn’t choose to be created, by God or otherwise, so how can one rightly say that I have free will? Any choice I make from the day I was created wouldn’t be possible without a choice my parents made; I had no choice in that. And their parents before them, and so on. Even if you can somehow manage to get around that fact, consider that every choice was made with some sort of incentive, this incentive causes the alternative being made. There is no such thing as free will; I bet you wouldn’t even be able to find it in scripture. Every choice a person makes is determined by a causal factor. You can think that you chose to eat vanilla over chocolate ice cream, but what caused that choice? It could be that someone is allergic to chocolate; did they choose to be allergic?
Nothing to say about the rest of my post? Or are you still trying to come up with a proper retort.
I hope you at least looked into what I said and possibly realized that what you have been indoctrinated into as a child is not as you originally thought it was.
a few more questions: If a hell exists, why isn't it mentioned in Genesis where it describes the creation of the universe? It mentions the heavens, why no mention of a hell? Furthermore, why does it say in Genesis 3:19 that when we die, we go back to the earth from which we were made and not to an afterlife of hell? or heaven for that matter?
There wasn't a hell but if you read later on in Ezekial it talks about how Lucifer wanted to become like God and then God sent Lucifer down to Hell along with other angels who thought about the same thing.
Ah, the old ‘Lucifer the Fallen Angel’ myth… you really need to do some homework because this alone speaks volumes of your understanding of your faith, or lack there of rather.
Doesn't it strike you as odd that the name Lucifer, a Latin name, appears in Hebrew text? Especially considering the Roman Empire didn’t even exist during the time Isaiah is speculated to have been written? If you ask someone who knows Hebrew or if you ask a Jew to interpret this passage from the Torah, you will get a much different story than what you were taught in Sunday school. You will hear the story which was taught before Christianity was even perpetrated.
The passage you refer to in Ezekiel is referring to the fall of a tyrant King’s reign, not the fall of an angel and his cohorts. The same can be said in the book of Isaiah, where it refers to the fall of a Babylonian King, it too was misinterpreted as the fall of an angel named Lucifer.
Christianity is notorious in other faiths for making stuff up and misinterpreting things, kind of like how Mormons are viewed by other Christians. I’m surprised the Jews aren’t utterly appalled that Christians have warped the meaning of their holy text so incorrectly… but then again, unlike Christians; my experience of Jews is that they are a lot more tolerant of others who don’t share their faith, so maybe that has a lot to do with it.
I’m sorry to be the one to inform you of the lies you’ve been fed throughout your life, but I feel it is quite important that you see the truth, because the truth shall set you free.
And please PLEASE don’t take my word for it, that’s the last thing I would want. I want you to cross examine everything I say, research this very thing and see it for yourself, otherwise I highly doubt you will believe me. Research it (preferably with a reliable, academic source and not more Christian propaganda), and you will see that I am not just making stuff up. Or you can continue to believe the lies you’ve come to confidently pontificate about, your choice.
Well, if you think Christians and Jews go to heaven, what about Muslims? They believe pretty much the same stuff as you guys do. They believe in one god (Allah), they have a prophet similar to Jesus (Mohamed) and they have their own bible (The Qu'ran). In fact, the similarities between Judeo-christian beliefs and Islam are remarkable. So, you're telling me that your book is better than theirs because...?
The truth is that their is no life after death. There is no heaven. There is no hell. You die and you just die. People believe in heaven because they can't accept the fact that they die and are so scared of the truth that they invent a make believe place to comfort themselves.
Muslims dont believe in God. They believe that Jesus Christ was a prophet when he said that he is the Son of God. They also believe that Jesus never died on the cross they say in ther book that it says that Jesus was came down from the cross and became a muslim when he died on the cross for our sins and rose from the grave.
There is heaven and there is a a hell. People who had near death experiances saw Heaven or Hell. In the Bible it says that in hell there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth and the person saw it. In heaven the Bible says that there will be golden streets in heaven and there was when this person went to heaven.
They believe that Jesus Christ was a prophet when he said that he is the Son of God.
I take it you mean they think he wasn't the son of God, Jews do not believe this either.
There is heaven and there is a a hell. People who had near death experiances saw Heaven or Hell. In the Bible it says that in hell there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth and the person saw it. In heaven the Bible says that there will be golden streets in heaven and there was when this person went to heaven.
Didn't anyone ever tell you not to believe everything you hear?
Muslim faith and Christian faith are opposites. We do not worship the same God. In Islam they deny Christ, deny that Christ is God in the flesh.
Muhammed is not Christ......Christ lived a perfect life....Muhammed lived a sinful life and did not even follow the tenants of his own faith. Just how many wives did he have? Over twenty.....and in the faith it tells them they can have no more than four wives.
You don't know much about either faith if you think they are even close.
They are polar opposites.
You made a factual statement based on what? There is no life after death you said. Prove it. At best your guessing, because it is impossible to prove.
For many people heaven and hell are real, they are places. As a Christian I read that Jesus warned us so much about the horrors of hell.
You say an afterlife simply does not exist...that we just stop. If that is the case then ask yourself this one....What about the evil done in the world...the Hitlers, child molesters, rapists, thieves? In your world...they lived great lives doing what they wanted and GETTING AWAY WITH IT. If there is no life after death, then there would be NO JUSTICE EVER SERVED. Does that sound fair to you? So in your world.....you should just do whatever you want...because in the end, if you can get away with it, nothing will happen to you. And I would just bet you are anti-death penalty...so evil never gets punished, but rewarded. This is one big reason I believe in an afterlife. I believe the truth and goodness will triumph. In your sad world....it does not.
On the flip side......those that lived good lives...helping others, donating time and money to the poor, humanities helpers....will never be rewarded. Lets ignore the good....and reward the bad. This is injustice...the opposite of what God is. In your world nothing matters since everyone will cease to exist.
I would then ask you.....what you think lifes purpose is? I guess you would answer......any joy you can experience for the moment (and that could be ANYTHING)....cause nothing else matters.
Also there is some books that tell where the person went to the Heaven or went to Hell and these books are not fiction they are true stories and why not care to read them and think what you think about the story to see if its really fiction.
Also there is some books that tell where the person went to the Heaven or went to Hell and these books are not fiction they are true stories and why not care to read them and think what you think about the story to see if its really fiction.
This a copy-paste from an older debate I posted in, I think it is relevant to your point.
I would like to point out that the human brain is very similarly wired in all humans, so experiences under duress would or could be similar.
That said there is no way of verifying anecdotal evidence, but consider the fact that certain chemicals when introduced to our bodies create the same sensations and hallucinations (obviously the hallucinations would be person specific) in everyone.
As in Jon's story he achieved a high through meditation, it is commonly known that deep meditation produces serotonin and dopamine levels to rise in the brain, the same chemicals that are stimulated by recreational drugs, such as MDMA, THC or Opiates, albeit without the negative effects of chemical stimulation. The fact that these effects are univeral among humans is a point of consideration.
Now take near death experiences, when you die your body releases it's store of DMT, which you have since you formed in the womb, Dimethyltryptamine, in a decent quantity is said to give complete out of body experiences, the bodily stress coupled with the drug could simulate the same style of hallucination, (while some of the stories are similar they differ in the specifics) and it is only those that have been brought back from a certain point that can tell us the tale, others can suffer brain damage, through lack of Oxygen and over exposure to DMT. The rest unfortunately die.
If we all respond to drugs in mostly the same ways, would it not be conceivable that this is what is happening in this situation, I think it is far more likely.
Although there maybe a lot of people that experience the same thing (a Godly manifestation) I wonder how many are religious themselves? I've read about NDEs involving Atheists that don't see God, and neither do all Christians.
You're wasting your time with that one, but yes, that is a great study.
They actually had a similar experiment in England where they had people volunteer and certain stimuli were presented to the brain through this large contraptions fit around the head, nothing but lights and sounds. The stimuli did not differ from one persons to another, but the religious in large part claimed an experience of god and the non-religious claimed nothing of the sort.
In other words in these instances which can effect any human, we "see what we want to see" or hear or smell etc. For the religious that is more often than not some religious phenomenon.
When you die, the microbes in your gut and throughout your body eat away at your corpse, other life forms like insects and scavenging animals eat your corpse, mold, fungus, and plants eventually consume your corpse as it rots in the ground. The energy your body had is made into new life for months after you die. That new life then dies and it’s energy is passed on again repeating the process. Energy is not created, nor is it destroyed, only transformed or passed on.
It’s the circle of life and death, watch the freakin’ Lion King.
Dreams are a reality not well understood, but may well be a gateway into the world beyond the grave. The places I have seen, the people I have met, make me suspect there is far more than meets the eye, when it comes to consciousness after death. Ghosts and their numerous sightings throughout the world are yet another proof of the here-after.
Dreams are the result of random bio electrical signals being fired off in the brain and an irrational mind’s attempt at making sense of it all by inserting random images from the subconscious…
There must be some form of life after death. A new dimension, an alternate universe that consists of only those that have died in our universe, a supernatural destination where souls or consciences venture off to, or a place that exists in our minds which avoid a physical death and continue to exist in a simple thought-based way.
How would you know what's after life? Have you died before, the after life if there is even one is debatable no matter what you say. Know one knows for sure there is life after death, people believe it get a sense of being safe.
It can't be proven either way. All we know is about this life on Earth. Our science is not capable of evaluating an afterlife. I'm simply making the case that there must be something that happens after death.
I'm simply making the case that there must be something that happens after death
Why "must" there be something that happens after death? There is no evidence for it, granted that doesn't mean that evidence doesn't exist. But considering that there has yet to be shown any testable proof, wouldn't the default position be that there is no life after death until proof is shown? You can make arguments of possibility, even probability, but until there is any evidence, the position that there is no afterlife is the most valid as for now.
My position is that there may be life after death by way of our energy being transformed or consumed back into the environment, the earth, the universe. I realize that this is not necessarily what the OP is referring to as afterlife, but it is one in the strict interpretation of the word. Not only that, but it follows the law of energy conservation in physics and leaves out superstition and hopeful attitudes which can lead to conflicts of interest. We are not conscious of that 'afterlife,' so no sense in following whimsical delusions that have only been a detriment on the evolution of our species.
Or do you choose to ignore these parts? An all-forgiving God is actually a very popular Christian belief. I'd have been surprised if there was nothing from the Bible supporting it.
In the grand scheme of everything that exists, whether it is supernatural, metaphysical, or natural, it just doesn't seem accurate to say that there is nothing realated to life after death on Earth.
There is no evidence for it, granted that doesn't mean that evidence doesn't exist.
Of course there is no evidence. It is purely hypothetical by nature, because if any afterlife does exist, it's not like there would be any Earthly proof of it.
But considering that there has yet to be shown any testable proof, wouldn't the default position be that there is no life after death until proof is shown?
Sure, you can look at it like that. But concepts like an afterlife (again, if it does exist) would never really be able to be proven our sciences that our world/universe can offer.
You can make arguments of possibility, even probability, but until there is any evidence, the position that there is no afterlife is the most valid as for now.
Most valid according to our logic, which does not and should not consist of hypothetical reasonings about a so-called afterlife.
Or do you choose to ignore these parts? An all-forgiving God is actually a very popular Christian belief. I'd have been surprised if there was nothing from the Bible supporting it.
You emboldened this remark in a post where you also emboldened my words as a way of quoting them. Was this just a mistake? I humbly request that you please differentiate people’s quotes if there is more than one that you are referring to within a response. Not just for my sake, but so that people don’t misquote the people you dispute.
In the grand scheme of everything that exists, whether it is supernatural, metaphysical, or natural, it just doesn't seem accurate to say that there is nothing realated to life after death on Earth.
Indeed, there are things related to life after death, all of what’s been said here in this debate relates to the concept of life after death. The fact remains however, that there is no evidence to suggest such a thing actually exists, and the only way we will actually know is by… well… dying.
If there is a life after death, then why do people mourn for the dead instead of celebrate their passing? Especially considering how horrible life on Earth can be? If there is a life after death, then why is it illegal to kill yourself? Of course the hope is there that this is not all there is, and that we can have a better existence when we die, but the attitudes of Humankind with regard to dying show me that there is an instinctual fear of dying, a fear that serves to encourage life over death, encourages survival over extinction, evolution over degradation. There is life after death in the literal sense when a person dies; there are people who continue to exist. From Cro-Magnon man to Einstein, the evolution of the species depended on this life after death that I speak of. Think not about what may or may not happen when we shuffle off this mortal coil, think of what we can do to advance the species now, at this moment. Religion has done nothing but encouraged a person to dwell on the concept of death throughout their life instead of doing productive things which could possibly benefit Humankind. And when it wasn’t stifling the evolution of the species, it was directly killing and discriminating people that went against the overconfident institution.
Of course there is no evidence. It is purely hypothetical by nature, because if any afterlife does exist, it's not like there would be any Earthly proof of it.
Why not? Because it is in an alternate realm? How do you know? Where is the criterion for your afterlife that specifically says that it is in an alternate realm? Or that an alternate realm does or can exist?
Sure, you can look at it like that. But concepts like an afterlife (again, if it does exist) would never really be able to be proven our sciences that our world/universe can offer.
For something to be considered a Truth there has to be evidence to prove its validity. The Truth of the matter is not incumbent upon the discovery of the proof, but the proof does have to exist for something to be considered a fact. If there are no means to prove that there is indeed an afterlife that the world/universe can offer, then how is it that such a concept even came to be? How is it that our ancient ancestors discovered the proof to the existence of an afterlife if they are within the world/universe where such a thing cannot be proven? Keep in mind that these are the same ancestors that believed that maggots were born out of rotted meat, and not the eggs laid by the adult flies. The same ancestors who believed the Earth was flat, and had corners. The same ancestors who believed that dinosaur fossils were God's way of testing our faith. The same ancestors that believed that their veiws on the world were inspired by God but have been proven time and time again to be wrong.
Most valid according to our logic, which does not and should not consist of hypothetical reasonings about a so-called afterlife.
Not according to “our” logic, but according to logic. And it has everything to do with reasoning, even in the hypothetical. Using logic, I reason to believe that there is no afterlife save for the life forms that persevere upon my death. Using logic, it stands to reason, that a person’s consciousness is a product of their brain due to the fact that a person can remain alive without a consciousness only to be considered “brain dead.”
I realize that so much hope is built up of an afterlife, making it hard to let go of the concept. But the sooner people realize it, the sooner we will have a population of individuals striving to better their selves, and in turn better their species.
in my opinion, there is a life after death. i believe in it, because i think all people who died they go into another wolrd and live there. they look at us and our life, but we cannot do it. some people saw their relatives in their dreams. i think, it is not simple, maybe they just want to say something or to correct their activities and show mistakes. in my religion, when somebody saw his relative, it means that the person should go to the place, where his relative lie. so, i think, the life after death exists.
Of course nobody can be absolutely sure whether there is life after death or not. No one can clearly answer this question. I believe that life after death exists. Because nothing in the world appears from somewhere and disappears into nowhere. And our souls too. So I believe that our forefathers, or rather their souls live among us, watching us and protect us
You won't be bored... you won't be anything. Don't get me wrong... I'd love to float off to some paradise for all eternity but I just don't see that happening any more than me being sucked down to some fiery underworld where some dude is always poking me with a pitchfork for all time.
Whether or not an afterlife exists is not necessitated upon your feelings of boredom. Regardless, it may seem boring to you now, but if there is nothing after death, not even a conscience, you wouldn't be feeling bored, I can assure you.
really so what about people who are resecitated they were dead then back alive even if its not in the same context they still come alive again like they do in heaven
Well I'm atheist and don't believe any of that... in my opinion if Jesus did exist he was just a man and after his death... nothing... his conscience ceased to be.
The existence of god cannot be proven or dis-proven so we all just have to go with our gut.
The existence of the bible doesn't make it true... What about the koran? Is that all true? There are thousands of different religions around the world... the majority of them most likely came into existence because people feared death and made up stories to make their children feel better.
I don't normally discuss religion much... it's really a matter of opinion and I respect anyone of any faith as long as they respect me.
i respect you but i also like a good debate so i will answer no the koran is not true but the bible is supported by tons of evidence including the red sea scrolls and what about golgotha where jesus died look it up its real
Well I can't believe that a man and his family was able to collect two of every animal in the world and get them on that boat. I meant no disrespect I was just curious if you believed it or not because several Christians that I know have admitted that they don't necessarily believe all the stories in the old testament as they are a lot more grandiose than the stories in the new testament.
Anyway, it's obvious that we aren't going to settle anything today, or ever... but thanks for remaining civil.
yes i do in fact it makes sense there are tons of fossiles on mountains so high nothing could survive.
Because no mountain that exists today was always as high as it is. Mountains most frequently form by the collisions of plates which push up the boundaries. The fossils were accrued at a point when they were lower.
they obviously got there by rising water
That would only be obvious if the water was here today. Since it is not, since there is not anywhere NEAR enough water to account for the flood, than it is anything but obvious. Water doesn't just disappear, you know.
This doesn't even account for any of the hundreds of other reasons why the Ark is impossible, but we'll deal with these one at a time, sir.
actually it says in one of the first five books that god told abraham all of this so that he could fulfil gods purpose therefore god in effect did write it
Did Abraham then go and write the bible? No, he didn't, some one else did, maybe Moses, maybe not. The point is even the bible itself does not claim that it was written by God, merely written by man.
Divine inspiration is on the face of it, a ridiculous way of communicating with a people you designed, especially if you chose to communicate through allegory and parable and then designed your people to each interpret it in myriad ways.
It would appear common sense to assume that the bible is the word of wise yet archaic men, as it is if followed correctly logically flawed and if followed as said allegory confusing, especially in the view that it is the word of an all-knowing entity.
They are, in medical terms considered dead. But there is still life in their cells. A person can have a brain death, and be determined dead while their heart is still beating, as long as they are unable to breath on their own without a machine. In fact, it is when a person is declared to be dead by way of brain death when their organs are harvested as their organs still need to be alive at the time of harvest.
I don't think so, because after our death we will go to next life,which is divided into two places like heaven and hell...maybe you are not religious and you have own views but at the same time we should know that Allah is great!
There is life after death. You go to hell, if you believe in false gods and don't invite Jesus into your heart. Or you can go to heaven to be with god. All you have to do is invite god into your heart, and follow him. In the end you go to hell or heaven it is your call people! In the end follow Jesus with all your heart and you will go to heaven, follow false gods and don't invite god into your heart well... sorry but your going to hell!
i think your statement not correct, but it is your point of view and we should respect each others thoughts. In my imagination there is a life after the death and i believe in reincarnation.
I find it silly for you to assume that freedom equals happiness. Such a statement tells me you don't know what you need yet to complete your existence.
I, on the other hand, do.
I'd agree with you that I wouldn't want to live a second longer if I didn't have it, but the problem is that if I can live forever, then I can have that thing forever also.
I would not want to live forever because firstly, evolution would turn you into a caveman freak, secondly, you would have to hide your identity because religious freaks will come hoarding at you, thirdly, your mind still ages mentally and will get clogged up over the over-years, fourthly, time will seem so fast that you will turn insane, fifthly, you will eventually get trapped somewhere forever, and lastly, you will never be able to love anyone again (because they keep on dying of age) the immense, eternal, emotional trauma would be too much to bear.
All these things add up to a fate that is worse than death.
I would not want to live forever because firstly, evolution would turn you into a caveman freak
What...? Evolution does not make things lesser. This entire statement is tripping.
you would have to hide your identity because religious freaks will come hoarding at you
Not if religious ignorance becomes nonexistent with time.
you would have to hide your identity because religious freaks will come hoarding at you
Evolution solves these problems.
time will seem so fast that you will turn insane
Once again, evolution solves these problems.
you will eventually get trapped somewhere forever
For the last time, evolution solves these problems.
you will never be able to love anyone again (because they keep on dying of age) the immense, eternal, emotional trauma would be too much to bear.
If I could live forever, why not everyone else? Why not everyone I love? I'm not special. How dare you assume I'd want to carry out eternal life by myself. That would be a fate worse then death. How stupid do you think I am to believe I should have it alone?
I think that live after death exists, but not like angels, souls. i think that every human's brain spreads waves. Those waves have information, codes. We cannot see them or feel, but sometimes people see them like a ghost. I think that ghosts is group of codes, information which across between each other.
I believe that death exists quite literally in the form of nothingness. Once you die, Your body starts losing the capability of anything similar to that of a living being, indicating that you are or have died. I noticed an argument considering how people may be defined as 'dead' by doctors and the like, and then brought back to life, You have to understand however, that is not really death, but more like a reinstatement of what you were as your body began to function again. Inbetween this, you are dragged into the state of nothingness, being death.
I won't say it is not possible, but the concept is not supported by any reliable evidence. To believe in something without evidence is not very useful. Everything our experience tells us is that existence is finite. Speculations that try to refute this are simply born out of fear of that temporary existence.
Of all of the religion-based psalms and poems dedicated to making humans less afraid of dying, not one of them is so effective I think than the far more likely, and more elequently said (since Twain is a much better writter than those who put together any "holy" book of any religion) is:
“I was dead for millions of years before I was born and it never inconvenienced me a bit.”
I could never handle dealing with the pricks of the Earth for any longer then I have too. Having to deal with them for eternity sounds like a fate most horrid.
No one living soul can not predict or anticipate what will happen after the death. I don`t believe in life after death. Nobody checked it, or asked God what is going on after the death and it`s not possible argue about it.
Life after death is just wishful thinking brought up on fear. Death is just the same as killing a germ or squashing a bug. The thing is, we were lucky to get our big brains and with that, we took pride in ourselves. I think death will be absolute nothing. We won't think, we won't see because our thoughts of our being and existence is in our minds and when it is mention from other people. When we die our mind deteriorates. It will be 100% neutrality and tranquility and we won't give a damn when were floating in the dark void of death- coz we dead! We won't be happy and we won't even be sad.
If completely dispersed, you could only leave behind echoes/ripples. Ghosts are technically not dead- undead, so they don't count. Same with minor deities, immortals, et.c.
